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  1. #1
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    How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That Could Seriously Injure Someone?

    Today a Hazard on the Slim Shady trail sent a rider to the Cottonwood EMERGENCY. This hazard could easily be identified and marked to warn riders.

    Is it OK to mark a hazard on a busy trail like Slim Shady?
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 05-17-2017 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #2
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    i'm afraid yoga pants are here to stay,, but i think alerting others to their presence is is just a matter of courtesy.

  3. #3
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    ^Awesome

  4. #4
    My other ride is your mom
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    No. This is a sport that requires individual responsibility, accountability and backcountry savy (you break it, you buy it). Don't Nerf the world or people. For those who like Nerf, I might suggest bouncy castles and laser tag.

  5. #5
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    Maybe a hazard such as this justifies having a safe go-around option?

  6. #6
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    Maybe a sign stating "Red Rocks ahead" would help?

    Sorry the person got hurt but come on here, It is MTB'ing.
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  7. #7
    The .05 percent
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    Only if there is a booby trap. MTB is a dangerous sport and probably highly hazardous to our senior citizens that spend way too much time opining about useless topics on MTBR. Hike up your skirt and if you feel this is too hazardous, maybe it is time to take up shuffleboard.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  8. #8
    Addicted to 2 wheels
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    During a race, yes. For regular trail use, no.

    You add one sign, then where do you stop? Well that drop is marked, so let's mark those ... Then riders have a president to expect challenges to be marked and then underestimate a blind section ... More work, more maintenance, more debates, ... I have only heard about this kind of stuff at trail entrances, and that is completely fine.

  9. #9
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    Yes, stand there and hold a sign during daylight hours please.
    "Cats don't like riding on a bicycle... no matter how much duct tape you use" . - G. Lemond

  10. #10
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    Yeah, let's resist dumbing down the mental aspect of our sport. The ability to read terrain and make decisions is part of the game.

  11. #11
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    Never ridden it so no idea what the obstacle in question is like, and I'm not saying we should put up signage, but to all those that say we shouldn't: Would you be in favor of taking down the sign on Portal in Moab that instructs you to walk a section? That is essentially "dumbing down the mental aspect of our sport."

  12. #12
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    This is a dumb topic. Post a pic and describe the hazard if it is so onerous to the general public that it requires signage.

    Thank god there is a little risk involved with mountain biking; otherwise it wouldn't be any fun or exciting. There's no way I'd ever get on a road bike. Maybe ADOT should post signs to warn riders that they might get hit by cars or have garbage thrown at them. That sounds fun.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Never ridden it so no idea what the obstacle in question is like, and I'm not saying we should put up signage, but to all those that say we shouldn't: Would you be in favor of taking down the sign on Portal in Moab that instructs you to walk a section? That is essentially "dumbing down the mental aspect of our sport."
    How many sections of Hangover should have signs saying "be careful"?

    I understand it's not black & white though. Coming from the climbing community we have the same issue regarding retro-bolting routes to make them safer. There's been times where heavily traveled climbs get bolted (and dumbed down) by the rescue guys because they get sick of risking their lives to save groups who got in over their heads; I can get my head around rationalizing that one.

    But Slim Shady? That doesn't rise to the level where I'm in support of it.

    Portal? I'm sure it's a case where a few folks rag dolled into the river so the local officials thought they should do something about it. I personally don't think that sign is warranted, but I don't know the local situation (in terms of rescues, lives lost, etc.) so I'm not going to judge. Last time I rode Capt Ahab I noticed that a section that was superfluously signed "walk your bike" had that sign removed - a good thing in my opinion, otherwise it's boy-who-cried-wolf and you just start ignoring the warnings. Or maybe the sign just fell down and it's back up by now, I dunno.

    My default position is of personal responsibility and minimizing hand-holding. But I understand there are other perspectives and I'm not the only one out there on the trails.

  14. #14
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    I too am curious what obstical the OP is referring to.

  15. #15
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    If my retirement is going to suck this much I will just keep working.


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  16. #16
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    Reminds me of this:

    Iconic Park Rock Destroyed by Visitors, Video Shows

    Also reminds me of how protruding rock edges were spray painted orange, with actual paint, not chalk, kind of like in DH, on trail for a grassroots race. Needless to say, the paint didn't wash away or wear off shortly afterwards...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Today a Hazard on the Slim Shady trail sent a rider to the Cottonwood EMERGENCY. This hazard could easily be identified and marked to warn riders.

    Is it OK to mark a hazard on a busy trail like Slim Shady?
    Depends on what that hazard is. I saw a guy get airlifted out and sent to emergency room after he hit a small rock at the end of Rock Knob near pemberton. Broke his collar bone after a simple OTB. He pretty much hit the only rock on the trail. Can't really mark that.


    The are plenty of reasons/ways to crash. One man's "hazard" is another man's fun line and the next guy just blows by it without even knowing it is there.


    BTW... what is a "hazard" Well in my opinion is something like a wash out or downed tree in bind turn or something really different than nature of the trail or some major change that needs maintenance work, but maybe has not been defined yet. Last time I when through slim shady I did not see any hazards just the normal trial. Plenty of places to crash and go the ER, but that is normal.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Only if there is a booby trap. MTB is a dangerous sport and probably highly hazardous to our senior citizens that spend way too much time opining about useless topics on MTBR. Hike up your skirt and if you feel this is too hazardous, maybe it is time to take up shuffleboard.
    its all about Pickleball now

  19. #19
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    One of these at every trailhead?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That  Could Seriously Injure Someone?-sign.jpg  

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdss View Post
    One of these at every trailhead?
    Thank sign kind of make sense for Browns ranch. The reason is that Diablo is different from 90% of the other trail miles in browns. Good idea to let people know before they start that this trail is more difficult.

    For some trails like Portal or Hangover it is good to have a sign that makes it clear that the trail is higher risk than other around it. No need to mark every rock, but some information is good. On Hiline there is a extra sign at the "chute" that serves to show to riders where it gets really burly.

    I have no issues with that.

    How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That  Could Seriously Injure Someone?-img_1228-s.jpg
    How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That  Could Seriously Injure Someone?-img_1229-s.jpg
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  21. #21
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    I generally leave these sorts of decisions up to the government since they know what's best and can be trusted to protect me from myself.

  22. #22
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
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    All of the trails I ride are hazardous. That being said a tree fell across the trail leaving a spear poking out. We removed the tree and I cut the spear off on the next ride. It was on a high speed off camber section. Someone, possible me was going to hit it at high speed. Another tree fell higher up and we built a sweet jump over it.
    Leaving a booby trap(natural or made made) is irresponsible. Having a technically difficult trail with features is fun and rewarding.

  23. #23
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I generally leave these sorts of decisions up to the government since they know what's best and can be trusted to protect me from myself.
    You really gotta get back on the bike... been too long.
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  24. #24
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    To raisingarziona’s government point instead of signgs…..

    There should be a law that every mtn bike ride has to have a person drone that sends real time video to your glasses and highlights the only safe line for you to ride. If no safe line then it turns off the power to your ebike so you can’t hurt yourself.

  25. #25
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    Behind every sign, there should be a story. Shouldn't just set up the same kind of generic sign up everywhere, else it won't be heeded by any free-thinking person. Signs need to be informative and made specific to its chosen location.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    You really gotta get back on the bike... been too long.
    Truth. Seems RA just wants to build trails and not ride them. Usually it's the other way around

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Truth. Seems RA just wants to build trails and not ride them. Usually it's the other way around
    I'll want to ride if we build new trails. I'm bored to death of riding our stuff these days.

    I'll get back at it once I'm done with school for sure. The stress that comes with trying to pay for riding while being broke and in school just isn't fun to me. It's pretty miserable actually.

  28. #28
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    Mark the area on the map, if someone hasn't ridden there before, that can be their warning. If you have ridden there before and still hit it, that's your fault
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp-End View Post
    I understand it's not black & white though. Coming from the climbing community we have the same issue regarding retro-bolting routes to make them safer. There's been times where heavily traveled climbs get bolted (and dumbed down) by the rescue guys because they get sick of risking their lives to save groups who got in over their heads; I can get my head around rationalizing that one.
    And there it is... When one person jacks himself up maybe the authorities need to start thinking. After we get a couple dozen body bags then maybe a sign is warranted.

  30. #30
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Truth. Seems RA just wants to build trails and not ride them. Usually it's the other way around
    I'm totally ok with this... and to the point of the OP, it would seem that no one on this forum gives 2 shits on hazards that may or may not exist on Slim shady. Carry on.
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  31. #31
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    I went through all the great posts and I appreciate no one calling the OP an idiot or some other personal attack. I was going to do a history lesson of that hazardous spot, but I thought no one probably care about the history of that spot.

    Actually there is a whole interesting history of the trail itself. First of all does anyone know were the name Slim Shady came from?

    So today I spoke with the head Sedona 1%'er who use to be a decider. He is very familiar with the spot and says he doesn't do the 4' drop because it's too harsh. I am assuming riders like rockman ride it though.

    The 1%'we said the best way to help high speed stupid visiting riders would be to paint several white dots on the slickrock to show the preffered line.

    I also spoke to the guy who crashed, he is from a European country that is big into mountain biking. He himself loves to mountain bike and he riders with mainly the 10%'re group. He said that he thought what ever standard the US used to mark hazardous spots on trails that many 60%'ers ride would be good.

    Yesterday the Urgent Care folks looked at his face, the bump on his head and the broken helmet and said you need to get a Catscan. So he gave them $175 and headed to Cottonwood to the emergency. There they gave him a Catscan and billed him for $1,500.

    His face is swollen and his neck is hurting. His mountain biking vacation is over and it's too bad the trail is still going to break someone's neck in the future.

  32. #32
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    Sorry, but if there is a 4ft drop on a trail that sounds like it has been there forever.... No sign needed. Just ride with in your abilities within what you can see. Common sense says don't blast around if you don't know what is coming. If you "think" you can handle it and fail.. well that stinks, but so be it. I almost think I know the area you are talking about, but I ride it just fine on my 26" HT. By "ride" I mean I rode to it and went.. "I am NOT going that way" and took the bypass on the right.

    Now I do feel bad for the guy getting hurt, but that is not the trail's fault. It is the rider's fault. I took a nasty spill in Phil's world last summer. Rider error and some bad luck and when OTB and face planted into a rock about 5 feet down steep rocky roller. (front tire got hung up on something and I went flying). I got myself to urgent care and it ended up being not bad, but man it did hurt. Still I can't blame the trail for that. Total rider error. It happens sometimes.
    Joe
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  33. #33
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  34. #34
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    Caution.... Rocks Ahead.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I went through all the great posts and I appreciate no one calling the OP an idiot or some other personal attack. I was going to do a history lesson of that hazardous spot, but I thought no one probably care about the history of that spot.

    Actually there is a whole interesting history of the trail itself. First of all does anyone know were the name Slim Shady came from?

    So today I spoke with the head Sedona 1%'er who use to be a decider. He is very familiar with the spot and says he doesn't do the 4' drop because it's too harsh. I am assuming riders like rockman ride it though.

    The 1%'we said the best way to help high speed stupid visiting riders would be to paint several white dots on the slickrock to show the preffered line.

    I also spoke to the guy who crashed, he is from a European country that is big into mountain biking. He himself loves to mountain bike and he riders with mainly the 10%'re group. He said that he thought what ever standard the US used to mark hazardous spots on trails that many 60%'ers ride would be good.

    Yesterday the Urgent Care folks looked at his face, the bump on his head and the broken helmet and said you need to get a Catscan. So he gave them $175 and headed to Cottonwood to the emergency. There they gave him a Catscan and billed him for $1,500.

    His face is swollen and his neck is hurting. His mountain biking vacation is over and it's too bad the trail is still going to break someone's neck in the future.
    Switch, that trail is at least 10 years old. You showed it to me in 2007 or 2008 when it was still a secret handshake trail with a hidden entrance. Now, all these years later you're worried about the danger? Sorry about you new friend but sh*t happens.

    Wasn't the builder into rap and he named it after his favorite rapper Eminem and his LP Slim Shady?

  36. #36
    The .05 percent
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    What a country

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Switch, that trail is at least 10 years old. You showed it to me in 2007 or 2008 when it was still a secret handshake trail with a hidden entrance. Now, all these years later you're worried about the danger? Sorry about you new friend but sh*t happens.

    Wasn't the builder into rap and he named it after his favorite rapper Eminem and his LP Slim Shady?
    rockman I asked the injured rider why he crashed on that spot? He said that all the other roll downs to that point had transitions. This one doesn't and I am sure those people that do the drop to flat would be upset if it was FUNNED UP to the Whistler standard.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    rockman I asked the injured rider why he crashed on that spot? He said that all the other roll downs to that point had transitions. This one doesn't and I am sure those people that do the drop to flat would be upset if it was FUNNED UP to the Whistler standard.


    Come on, it's Slim Shady probably the most popular trail out there and now there's an issue?

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  39. #39
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    rockman I asked the injured rider why he crashed on that spot? He said that all the other roll downs to that point had transitions. This one doesn't and I am sure those people that do the drop to flat would be upset if it was FUNNED UP to the Whistler standard.
    Can't let it go can you?

  40. #40
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    I think you have missed the boat, and the point of most of the replies. If not for this skillset and discretion reality every time I go out, I would have no use for this sport. I may die this way some day, in pursuit of what makes this sport very unique...I have somehow managed a 20 year learning curve. There is one immutable truth as a result of what happened. This experience made him a better rider than he was yesterday. Along with the conclusion that HE made the wrong choice that had nothing to do with anyone else.

    THANK YOU for sparing the history lesson.

    He learned another American lesson besides signage. Urgent care is to be avoided, unless you want to catch something.

    PS: when I saw what was on the other side of that Portal sign, I was grateful for it. Body recovery has a lot more cost, tragedy associated with it. Plus it was good photo op.


    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I went through all the great posts and I appreciate no one calling the OP an idiot or some other personal attack. I was going to do a history lesson of that hazardous spot, but I thought no one probably care about the history of that spot.

    Actually there is a whole interesting history of the trail itself. First of all does anyone know were the name Slim Shady came from?

    So today I spoke with the head Sedona 1%'er who use to be a decider. He is very familiar with the spot and says he doesn't do the 4' drop because it's too harsh. I am assuming riders like rockman ride it though.

    The 1%'we said the best way to help high speed stupid visiting riders would be to paint several white dots on the slickrock to show the preffered line.

    I also spoke to the guy who crashed, he is from a European country that is big into mountain biking. He himself loves to mountain bike and he riders with mainly the 10%'re group. He said that he thought what ever standard the US used to mark hazardous spots on trails that many 60%'ers ride would be good.

    Yesterday the Urgent Care folks looked at his face, the bump on his head and the broken helmet and said you need to get a Catscan. So he gave them $175 and headed to Cottonwood to the emergency. There they gave him a Catscan and billed him for $1,500.

    His face is swollen and his neck is hurting. His mountain biking vacation is over and it's too bad the trail is still going to break someone's neck in the future.
    Michael
    old guy

  41. #41
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    Personal responsibility, where did it go?

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  42. #42
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    I'm guessing I know the drop he's talking about because I saw it coming and avoided it while my buddy didn't see it coming and took the drop. It surprised him but even though he's 62 years old (60 at the time) and it was an "oh shit" moment, he had a huge smile on his face.
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  43. #43
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    k2 thanks for the Intel about that hazardous spot on the Slim Shady trail. I was able to get pictures of the helmet that protected the injured rider. Thank god he wasn't one of
    those guys that ride around Sedona with no helmet.

    Now that we have discussed this hazard location what do you think the easiest way the unknowing riders could be informed the safest route to ride by the hazard?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That  Could Seriously Injure Someone?-img_7594.jpg  

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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Now that we have discussed this hazard location what do you think the easiest way the unknowing riders could be informed the safest route to ride by the hazard?
    By leaving it the hell alone FFS! People need to pay attention, plain and simple. Ride within your abilities. If you don't, you pay a price. Never assume anything... especially on a trail you don't know. Stop messing with things Finchy!!
    Shit happens...

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    blah blah blah...
    Don't you have a garage or closet that needs to be organized? There are better things to be consumed over than constantly posting threads like you do.

    Truthfully, I admire your passion to the sport and trail building but as you have found it has gone over the top by being banned on web sites and the forest that you love so much. Please chill out for your own good. Enjoy your life and let things be..
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  46. #46
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
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    This trail seems to draw a lot of riders of various skill levels. It already has an alternate line and the feature should be left alone. Legal trails should have some kind of sign to direct people around the apparently easy to miss 4ft drop. It's better to protect the less skilled riders from themselves rather than get bad press for the trail and have it sanitized. Sucks the dude got hurt, but crashes happen, they are part of our sport.

  47. #47
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    It's Sedona for f**k's sake. There are ledges and drops all over the place. If it's that big a deal and you truly want some valid opinions on signage post some pics of the blind drop. Otherwise, this thread is useless. I've ridden Slim Shady dozens of times in either direction and can't recall a blind drop.

    Switch is your real intent to point an accusing finger at the trail work done last Saturday? Did the deciders close a ride-around and direct the flow over the drop? Where's the beef??????????????????????????

    If you hey-diddle-diddle-down-the-middle on the Eazy Breezy drop-in from Templeton you go over a 4 or 5 foot drop to flat. Does that need a sign?

  48. #48
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    This trail seems to draw a lot of riders of various skill levels. It already has an alternate line and the feature should be left alone. Legal trails should have some kind of sign to direct people around the apparently easy to miss 4ft drop. It's better to protect the less skilled riders from themselves rather than get bad press for the trail and have it sanitized. Sucks the dude got hurt, but crashes happen, they are part of our sport.
    alex I appreciate your support in this important discussion. It looks like we are outnumbered by 5 to 1 on this safety issue. In Sedona they have the IMBA Patrol and one of there members rides Slim Shady regularly. In fact he created abuch of the optional go rounds on Slim Shady. The Bike and Bean hardcore riders are not happy with this guy. He probably would be more than happy to install and maintain the safety measure to help reduce the number of riders who might become paralyzed at this dangerous spot.

  50. #50
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    I wish there was a sign at the start of hangover saying... please dont use extra wide handelbars and remove all bar ends before proceeding....

    just kidding... whatever... just ride...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    ..

    Wasn't the builder into rap and he named it after his favorite rapper Eminem and his LP Slim Shady?
    Whenever I ride that trail I can't help, but think "Will the real slim shady please stand up?"
    Joe
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    IMBA patrol? VVCC canceled their IMBA chapter status. Somebody else right?

    You're not outnumbered. I don't like dangerous trails either. You've got all day if the Magura camp is done and you're not grilling hamburgers. Get over to Slim Shady and carefully document your issues with the trail (and maintenance if that's the issue) so that the avid mtbr readers that avidly devour your latest trolling can have an educated opinion. Or, support or whatever you want to call it.

    Strong work on the thread though. 49 posts and 1000+ views. Just need a few more TRs and the forum is back on track. I assume that's the real agenda here.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    rockman I asked the injured rider why he crashed on that spot? He said that all the other roll downs to that point had transitions. This one doesn't and I am sure those people that do the drop to flat would be upset if it was FUNNED UP to the Whistler standard.
    Just because someone gets it wrong does not mean the trail wrong. Personally I never trust what look like a drop until I know exactly what is on the other end. The last thing you ever do on to take drop, jump or similar blind feature at speed without knowing how it ends. Just because that last one did something it does not mean the next one is the same. This is why the locals are always so fast. They know when hit it hard and when to back off and the new to the area rides simply can't go that fast or else they will crash because the will charge something they should have slowed for or mis judged. When I go down pigtail I am always cautious as there are some many blind jumps that will end badly if I think I am superman. Some have easy rollout and others not so much. I have never ridden it enough to remember all these so I take it easy.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecegatorturo View Post
    by leaving it the hell alone ffs! People need to pay attention, plain and simple. Ride within your abilities. If you don't, you pay a price. Never assume anything... Especially on a trail you don't know. Stop messing with things finchy!!
    spot on!!!
    Joe
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Traildoc pushed him.........
    Maybe Trail Doc was doing some "guide" work and forget to tell his rider to watch it and so he blindly followed him and f-ed up. Then switchblade came along to help out.


    Who knows....
    Joe
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Maybe Trail Doc was doing some "guide" work and forget to tell his rider to watch it and so he blindly followed him and f-ed up. Then switchblade came along to help out.


    Who knows....
    Maybe 50cents or Jennifer B?
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  57. #57
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    A vast majority of you (us) think signage isn't necessary. How do y'all feel about signage while riding park? I'll admit I haven't been to a lift-assisted mtb park yet but I do watch a fair amount of footage from riders who have. And every time I do, I see a lot of signs before a significant obstacle. Curious on peoples' thoughts on that.

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    rock the IMBA Bike Patrol guy I am talking about stopped by the Press Camp on Tuesday. He knows me by name because of all the good work I have accomplished in the last seventeen years. You know those IMBA patrol guys they never give up their jerseys. He could just be self appointed at this point, that has worked for several folks over the years. When are you going to finish that gap jump on Tea Cup? It really needs your attention. A big berm after the landing would be nice.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    rock the IMBA Bike Patrol guy I am talking about stopped by the Press Camp on Tuesday. He knows me by name because of all the good work I have accomplished in the last seventeen years. You know those IMBA patrol guys they never give up their jerseys. He could just be self appointed at this point, that has worked for several folks over the years. When are you going to finish that gap jump on Tea Cup? It really needs your attention. A big berm after the landing would be nice.
    Got a new gap jump to build. Jumps to flat suck. Come on up Switch. We could use a video documentary. First Trail Day of 2017! Rogers Lake Connector Trail | Flagstaff Biking Organization

    And answer your own question. How did Slim Shady get it's name? Or, do we have to wait for the book to come out?

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    Now I remember why I stopped reading Sedona threads. I've been gone a while. Is Switchbade just a reincarnation of TD?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    Now I remember why I stopped reading Sedona threads. I've been gone a while. Is Switchbade just a reincarnation of TD?
    Yes. Switchblade = 50cents = traildoc = John Finch

    Never met the guy and heard wonderful things about how nice he is in person but ever since he posted some bull$hit on the thread of the missing kid (with the kid's dad reading it), I would never want to meet him. Grade A prick in my book. I don't care what he builds. F that guy.
    Shit happens...

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    Yes. Switchblade = 50cents = traildoc = John Finch

    Never met the guy and heard wonderful things about how nice he is in person but ever since he posted some bull$hit on the thread of the missing kid (with the kid's dad reading it), I would never want to meet him. Grade A prick in my book. I don't care what he builds. F that guy.


    This.
    "Cats don't like riding on a bicycle... no matter how much duct tape you use" . - G. Lemond

  63. #63
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    Large warning signage is (IMO) rather pointless. There's a certain level of hand-holding that it implies that is part of MTB.
    As a general rule around places like Prescott and PHX, I think designating and marking "B-Lines" is not a good idea; I'm a supporter of "walk it if you can't ride it, or stay off".

    I feel like the rules change a little in Sedona. The above discussion is a good example. That feature is a decidedly black diamond feature in a pretty "blue" trail, and the penalty for failure is high.
    I think I know where it is, and have wondered why the "Moab approach" of paint dots is so discouraged, or, Like Brown's Ranch has done a small post with an arrow "More Difficult" to give a heads up.
    There's enough unmarked 'rollable' drops in Sedona that I would figure "If someone took the time to mark this as different, I should check it out".
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Yeah, why not?

  64. #64
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    Just don't pave it over with an ADA compliant ramp.
    "Cats don't like riding on a bicycle... no matter how much duct tape you use" . - G. Lemond

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Got a new gap jump to build. Jumps to flat suck. Come on up Switch. We could use a video documentary. First Trail Day of 2017! Rogers Lake Connector Trail | Flagstaff Biking Organization

    And answer your own question. How did Slim Shady get it's name? Or, do we have to wait for the book to come out?
    Slim Shady got its name from the builder. Before Hiline was built Slim Shady needed to be born. Before Slim Shady, Made in the Shade was born.

    So both had to do with the sun. PP was a successful plumbing business owner at the time of construction. After Made in the Shade was successful it was only natural to build a trail to the Templeton trail to take the load off Bell Rock Pathway.

    So after a hard days work PP would gather up his dogs and head out to Hwy 179 and he would park and take his dogs out for a hike and trail build while the sun was going down in the west. As the sun went down the shade would deminish on the east side of Transcept, so PP would work into the night.

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    Well I have no idea what drop you are talking about but if it's the one I am thinking of I don't think it would be a good idea to build any sort of ramp since it's right in the middle of a wash. You could try but I imagine a five or ten year rain event (maybe just a typical monsoon season) would destroy it anyways.

  67. #67
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    White hash marks is all you need, if anything. Or just don't bomb a trail your are not familiar with.

  68. #68
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    A sign is not the solution to this problem. Portal has had a sign at 'that spot' for years. People still ride it all the time. Some of them die, most of them don't, the placement of the sign notwithstanding.

    The suggestion that we sign every slippery slope puts us on a dangerously slippery slope. Where do we draw the sign-line? This is madness, I tell you.

    Sound judgement and the ability to honestly self-assess your own innate skill level, and then boldly deny every bit of that restraint in a matter of microseconds in order to indulge one's most basic primal desire to impress one's friends (or moreover, rad chicks), is what's always been required to be truly awesome while riding bikes. This includes all bikes. Everywhere. At all times. And it never requires a sign. It only takes balls.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    White hash marks is all you need, if anything. Or just don't bomb a trail your are not familiar with.
    five I think you are spot on. I am surprised rockman hasn't posted the picture I sent him. In the picture you will see skid marks. This hazard will paralyze someone as it stands right now.

    White hash marks would take 5 minutes and seems like a no brainer.

    Lars is for making a linseed oil line showing the preferred route. If you have ridden Hiline lately you know what I am talking about. He also wants a nice ramp into the wash. The problem is wanting and doing can take a long time. I am sure a MTC could knock it out in a good day's work.

    There are about 6 big rocks near the drop that could be moved to create the foundation of the ramp. I personally could move those rocks to the top of the drop for later placement. I would need some additional help to place them to survive a big rain event. It actually would be a fun challenging project.

  70. #70
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    Not sure why you can't post your own pics but here ya go.

    How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That  Could Seriously Injure Someone?-slim-shady-drop.jpg

    Isn't there a ride-around ramp on the right side? Personally I'm not a fan of painting dots but understand the rationale for it.

  71. #71
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    Here we go with the ADA compliant trails. What's next, motorbikes?
    "Cats don't like riding on a bicycle... no matter how much duct tape you use" . - G. Lemond

  72. #72
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    Life is a hazard, live with it.

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    Personally I would like to be the person who saved an aggressive unknowing rider from a serious neck injury accidently going off that drop. What does it matter to those of you that think some little paint or linseed oil is some type of dumbing down of the trail. No one can argue that other riders aren't going to be going off this drop by mistake. Thousands of riders ride this trail every year.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Personally I would like to be the person who saved an aggressive unknowing rider from a serious neck injury accidently going off that drop. What does it matter to those of you that think some little paint or linseed oil is some type of dumbing down of the trail. No one can argue that other riders aren't going to be going off this drop by mistake. Thousands of riders ride this trail every year.



    Feel free to file it in the suggestion box at the Forest Circus. I'm sure that they will be joyous over the contact from you.
    "Cats don't like riding on a bicycle... no matter how much duct tape you use" . - G. Lemond

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Not sure why you can't post your own pics but here ya go.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Slim Shady Drop.jpg 
Views:	81 
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ID:	1137904

    Isn't there a ride-around ramp on the right side? Personally I'm not a fan of painting dots but understand the rationale for it.
    Yes there is a ride around and I have to say I have used it. No shame either. Actually you can see the "Ride around" is primary trail now.

    BTW with that pic there is no need for signage. You see three things already.
    1) Tire marks. Anytime you see those slow the f down... Some else slowed down hard for good reason
    2) Looks to me like a drop. Is it rollable or will you have to commit becuase it a shear drop? If you can't tell down try to roll it. If you must huck it and pray all goes well.
    3) If you look forward you see well worn path NOT coming from this drop. That means this not the primary line and means it harder. Take your own risk.
    Joe
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Personally I would like to be the person who saved an aggressive unknowing rider from a serious neck injury accidently going off that drop. What does it matter to those of you that think some little paint or linseed oil is some type of dumbing down of the trail. No one can argue that other riders aren't going to be going off this drop by mistake. Thousands of riders ride this trail every year.
    Seems like a worthy cause if it is indeed that dangerous. Guess I don't go fast enough to have an issue with it but I'm not a fan of jumps to flat either. Instead of continually pestering the FS, why don't you carefully document the site with photographs and encourage the Verde Valley Cyclist Coalition to advocate for placement of the sign. https://www.vvcc.us/

    After the Thunder Mountain reroute trail in wilderness accusations the FS probably has ear muffs on. And they don't have to listen if they don't want to.

    Or, since you have so much time on your hands become an American Bicyclists Certified Instructor. Just think of it, you can help visitors to the world class destination of Sedona to ride safely and legally (no non-system trails) and shred with confidence in any trail situation. Become an Instructor | League of American Bicyclists

  77. #77
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    Well now that we have a visual I wouldn't care if it was "dumbed down" to be completely honest. Drops to flat were sort of cool in 1999 but I'm not into hucking into Kansas any longer. that shit is whack.

    A transition whether a roller or a landing would be a lot cooler and I wouldn't consider it dumbing down the trail at all, it would only make it better. I'm still not into building features ina wash but if you think you can pull it off then I think that's great.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Well now that we have a visual I wouldn't care if it was "dumbed down" to be completely honest. Drops to flat were sort of cool in 1999 but I'm not into hucking into Kansas any longer. that shit is whack.

    A transition whether a roller or a landing would be a lot cooler and I wouldn't consider it dumbing down the trail at all, it would only make it better. I'm still not into building features ina wash but if you think you can pull it off then I think that's great.
    I vote for a gap to transition...just to keep it interesting
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  79. #79
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    MTB 2.0

    Snowflake Edition


  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Thousands of riders ride this trail every year.
    And only one got hurt. Low risk.

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    Sanitize, fvckface!
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    And only one got hurt. Low risk.
    Well if we can save the face of just one child it will all be worth it to completely pave over this feature.


    /sarcasm
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    Some kind of 1' sloped drop for about
    3' to a tranny about 2.6" high with a ??' long transition. I will talk with Lars.

  84. #84
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    How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That Could Seriously Injure Someone?

    I have a question - I am a complete noob to the mountain biking community, but I have been part of other communities that have a similar feel - skydiving and 4x4 off-roading. The reason I mentioned this first is because I'm hoping to avoid reactions thinking I am coming from a specific place on one side or the other of this discussion; I am not, I am coming from ignorance.

    I totally get why people would have a problem with changing an obstacle, making it easier/"safer". However, I don't understand why people would have a problem with marking something like that, a sign or just some paint?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  85. #85
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    If your going to go out without a someone to guide you on a new trail, then you should be careful and inspect difficult obstacles. I never ride a new trail by myself at full speed. If I'm with a buddy and he tells me its a drop to flat, line up and hit it,I will. Same for lets stop and check it out. No shame in walking.
    PSA Mountain biking is dangerous.

  86. #86
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    krel there are two types of people on this AZ Forum. There are those that are concerned about other riders SAFETY and there are others who believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and if you become paralyzed due to an avoidable hazard because you screwed up SO BE IT.

    On the backside of Hiline one of the best riders in Sedona marked the line that 80% of the riders should take through the not so recognizable line. I assume he did it to give first time riders a better user experience.

    It only seems logical that the fewer riders injured on a system trail is a good thing. It also seems reasonable to build a fun drop off the 4' drop to flat section. Whether it wound hold up in a major rail event would be a building challenge. I assume lots of heavy rock and crush for the core. Nice big flat pieces for the tranny.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by krel View Post
    ...
    I totally get why people would have a problem with changing an obstacle, making it easier/"safer". However, I don't understand why people would have a problem with marking something like that, a sign or just some paint?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Because where does it stop? Marking every rock in the trail? We ride in nature and in trails with rocks, ruts and other nature features. Sure nearly all trails have had nature adjusted to make things rideable, but if you make everything rideable to everyone it makes everything a paved sidewalk. For every trail there are hazards. Could be a turn with cactus on the outside. Go too fast and hit cactus and it can hurt. I once went over the bars when I went wide on a familiar trail hit a barrel cactus with the handlebars. Luckily I was not hurt, but could have been. Should we "mark" the cactus? Then there would be so many marker all you see is markers.

    The best plan to ride aware. Always look forward an read the trail and make your safety your own. Don't rely on someone else to prevent you from crashing.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  88. #88
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    Building a ramp in the middle of a creek bed is dumb. How about simply painting a line with hachure marks to indicate danger similar to those on Gooseberry Mesa? You could even do that yourself with a small can of spray paint and nobody would be the wiser. Done. End of story.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Sanitize, fvckface!
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  90. #90
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    How Concerned Are You About A Hazard That Could Seriously Injure Someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    krel there are two types of people on this AZ Forum. There are those that are concerned about other riders SAFETY and there are others who believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and if you become paralyzed due to an avoidable hazard because you screwed up SO BE IT.
    I guess I'm seeing three positions, not two.

    The "don't change anything, if you screw up it's your own fault" type.

    The "modify a dangerous obstacle so it will not be as likely to cause injury" type.

    The "leave the dangerous obstacle alone but provide some amount of warning" type.

    I see a fairly substantial difference between the second and third positions and I for myself think I would fall under the third one.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Because where does it stop? Marking every rock in the trail?

    The best plan to ride aware.
    That's a slippery slope argument. Of course it doesn't lead to marking everything. I do completely agree with your last point.

  91. #91
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    The Forest Circus may take a dim view of you vandalizing the trails Trail50blade.
    "Cats don't like riding on a bicycle... no matter how much duct tape you use" . - G. Lemond

  92. #92
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    I thought he was banned by the Forest Service?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Building a ramp in the middle of a creek bed is dumb. How about simply painting a line with hachure marks to indicate danger similar to those on Gooseberry Mesa? You could even do that yourself with a small can of spray paint and nobody would be the wiser. Done. End of story.
    I am curios when you tried to build the gap jump across the original Tea Cup trail, did you think it was dumb? I personally think that was way more dumb than the ramp idea on Slim Shady. Your Gooseberry paint idea is perfect.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I am curios when you tried to build the gap jump across the original Tea Cup trail, did you think it was dumb? I personally think that was way more dumb than the ramp idea on Slim Shady. Your Gooseberry paint idea is perfect.
    SB2- Do you feel a need to call out fellow riders in some back handed fashion all the time? You have done this many times before and it's a huge reason people on here bash you. You've been banned from this site 2 times that I know of, banned from the forest for a year I believe, fined, and generally people don't enjoy the attitude behind the keyboard. You lurk on your threads hitting refresh often to see what type of reaction you can get then response in some weird fashion.
    Please, for your own good as I've stated before, just go ride your bike and enjoy the day. The weather is great so I'm going to do the same.
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  95. #95
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    He's only going to answer your question with another question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Building a ramp in the middle of a creek bed is dumb. How about simply painting a line with hachure marks to indicate danger similar to those on Gooseberry Mesa? You could even do that yourself with a small can of spray paint and nobody would be the wiser. Done. End of story.
    I am curious when you tried to build the gap jump across the original Tea Cup trail, did you think it was dumb? I personally think that was way more dumb than the ramp idea on Slim Shady. Your Gooseberry paint idea is perfect.

  97. #97
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    See post #93

    narcissistic ahole is repeating himself.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I am curious when you tried to build the gap jump across the original Tea Cup trail, did you think it was dumb? I personally think that was way more dumb than the ramp idea on Slim Shady. Your Gooseberry paint idea is perfect.
    I confess I had my doubts. The landing is basically a G-out as the trail turns and goes back uphill. I was mainly trying to follow through on the trail builders vision. Too many cooks in the kitchen isn't productive.

  99. #99
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    How big is the drop anyhow? 5'?

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    How big is the drop anyhow? 5'?
    Think it was posted that it is 4 feet.


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