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  1. #1
    parenting for gnarness
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    Hopes/Flows or 819s/Flows for tubeless Somo gnar?

    building a wheelset for an AM bike to ride all Somo chunk. I have had really good experience with hopes/flows on 2 bikes. I like the Flows running tubeless a lot and am very comfortable with them. However, my experience is limited to my XC\enduro bikes. I ride them hard, 2-3 foot drops and staircases and occasional National trips. But this wheelset is going to get ridden much harder - NRA, Wasabi, Holbert etc.

    I have used 819 rims in the past, they are supposed to be a more durable rim. but I don't like how you have to go with tubeless-specific tires. Or can you do 819's with regular tires and a latex sealant as well?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    building a wheelset for an AM bike to ride all Somo chunk. I have had really good experience with hopes/flows on 2 bikes. I like the Flows running tubeless a lot and am very comfortable with them. However, my experience is limited to my XC\enduro bikes. I ride them hard, 2-3 foot drops and staircases and occasional National trips. But this wheelset is going to get ridden much harder - NRA, Wasabi, Holbert etc.

    I have used 819 rims in the past, they are supposed to be a more durable rim. but I don't like how you have to go with tubeless-specific tires. Or can you do 819's with regular tires and a latex sealant as well?
    I've rolled all kinds of tires with my 819's but I'm not the brightest.

  3. #3
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grave9 View Post
    I've rolled all kinds of tires with my 819's but I'm not the brightest.
    complete disregard for body or bike merits an asterisk next to your commentary.

    but yeah, latex can seal just about anything.

  4. #4
    I love bike!
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    I don't get too crazy but my Flow/Hope set has been really solid. Ride Natty/G-mo/Pass Mtn and others with some chunk, no jumps/drops over 3ft, with no issues so far. I ride on big tires (2.5 - 2.35) and only run about 20lbs. Never had a burp or blowout or dented rim (probably totally screwing myself right now).

  5. #5
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    I rode 819's with standard 2ply minions with stans on my bottlerocket. They took a severe beating and held up. The only down side is they're narrow so 2.3 are as big as I would go on them. I had trouble with 2.5's rolling over on hard landings.

  6. #6
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    I rode 819's with standard 2ply minions with stans on my bottlerocket. They took a severe beating and held up. The only down side is they're narrow so 2.3 are as big as I would go on them. I had trouble with 2.5's rolling over on hard landings.
    hmmm...wanna run a 2.5 up front. the flows have an interesting bead design that maximizes the tire width too. I don't want to go up to 823s since that's more heft than I need.

  7. #7
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    819's are fine with any type of tires. Just size really matters (that's what she said). Having a too big of a tire might round it off too much. I think the max size would be a 2.35

  8. #8
    mr. wonderful
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    I ran Flows on my Highline for a couple of years and they held up OK. I wouldn't use them again for that kind of abuse though. I recently laced up 823s instead, kind of heavy but very solid and stupid easy for going tubeless.

    819s are in a slightly different league than Flows as they are substantially narrower, probably stronger, and a little heavier. I just built a set of 819s for my 6" bike.

    The beef I have with the Flows is that that, without reinforced holes, they have to be laced on the lower side of spoke tension. I never ripped out a spoke, but the rear rim was plagued with several flat spots. I think you can make a far stiffer wheel with reinforced holes.

    For a 6" plus minus bike, I think either Flows or 819s are great options with advantages and liabilities of each.

    Just like Flows, you can easily run 819s tubeless or standard tires with or without tubes.

  9. #9
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    You say you want to run a 2.5 up front? I run a 2.5 standard High Roller on my rear 819. It's actually smaller or the same size as the 2.35 UST Fat Albert up front. My point being is 2.5 is fine if it's not a large 2.5.

    Years ago I used to run a Speshy Enduro Pro 2.4 on my 819's. That was a big tire. Never had any problems with them though but they would have been better suited on a wider rim for sure.

  10. #10
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    I have had flows for about a year or so now. They've held up pretty good a small dent here or there. I've ridden them weekly at somo on (mormon, national, geronimo, 24th st) and hawes, pass mountain, as well as 5-6 runs at downieville (DH from packers saddle). I did the most abuse on geronimo with them but i think was running about 25psi rear and single ply. Typically i try to stay at 32-35psi rear now. I think they hold up pretty well for what they weigh.

    I have some WTB Weirwolf 2.3 TCS tires on them now, by far my fav tire for AZ, just wished they lasted longer.

  11. #11
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    just saw 'size at cactus getting a set of bontrager duster's to dt swiss for the same application...he said the dusters are lighter, wider and as burley as the 819 and with the bontrager strip it's a true UST wheel. sounds interesting...maybe swing by and take a look at what fish cooked up...

    my suggestion would be the 823's and just chalk the extra weight up to strength training for the gnar

  12. #12
    vmb
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    819 on front - 823 on the rear....

    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    building a wheelset for an AM bike to ride all Somo chunk. I have had really good experience with hopes/flows on 2 bikes. I like the Flows running tubeless a lot and am very comfortable with them. However, my experience is limited to my XC\enduro bikes. I ride them hard, 2-3 foot drops and staircases and occasional National trips. But this wheelset is going to get ridden much harder - NRA, Wasabi, Holbert etc.

    I have used 819 rims in the past, they are supposed to be a more durable rim. but I don't like how you have to go with tubeless-specific tires. Or can you do 819's with regular tires and a latex sealant as well?
    When I first built up my big bike (Titus SuperMoto), I put 819's front and back. I broke the rear within the first few months. I then replaced it with an 823 and have been running it ever since (since 2004). If you are building it up for the trails you mentioned (NRA and bigger air), I would go the 823 on rear at least (it is extra weight well spent).

    Also, you don't need to run tubeless specifc tires on the 819's/823's, I have tried many different tire brands/types over the years with and without sealant with no issues.

    I have never used hopes/flows, so can't provide any input there.

  13. #13
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob View Post
    just saw 'size at cactus getting a set of bontrager duster's to dt swiss for the same application...he said the dusters are lighter, wider and as burley as the 819 and with the bontrager strip it's a true UST wheel. sounds interesting...maybe swing by and take a look at what fish cooked up...

    my suggestion would be the 823's and just chalk the extra weight up to strength training for the gnar
    Great idea. People have said lots of good things about Fish's wheel builds and obviously Cactus kinda specializes in that terrain\style. when's a good time to find him at the shop, schedule's been tough for getting over to PT lately?

    thanks everyone for the suggestions and new ideas.

  14. #14
    I am Bob
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    Hey Cholla,

    I have hope/823 on my Guapo and I think it's worth the extra weight. They really are not that heavy and they've held up well. Peter at Rage built mine.
    I have tossed around the idea of going with Flow's on that bike to expand tire choice, but they really are a little soft for the tough stuff. I don't have lots of extra cash these days so I'm glad I went with the tougher wheels. They have been bomber.

  15. #15
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    Fish's there today!

  16. #16
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    Are you running a 12mm through axle in the back? I broke my 12mm Hope aluminum axle in 6 months using Maxle 12mm quick release on my Mojo HD. I've been riding PMP with FLows/Hopes and WTB 2.4 Mutano rear and a WTB Weirwolf 2.5 front. I like the Flows but don't believe the Hopes are strong enough for all mountain riding. I am also questioning whether the WTB Weirwolf is a stiff enough tire for all mountain. Last week I rolled the Weirwolf front on a landing from a 8' drop, went OTB and broke five ribs. I've been doing this jump for a couple of years with no problems. Still trying to figure out what happened.

  17. #17
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    Jason: I'm personally a BIG fan of Flow rims, particularly if they're laced by a really good wheelbuilder.

    I'ver run several sets on various bikes and have never had an issue with denting or flatting.

    No experience with Hope hubs, but I'm super-pleased with my Flow/Hadley wheels.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiO2 View Post
    I am also questioning whether the WTB Weirwolf is a stiff enough tire for all mountain.
    My vote is a no. I REALLY like that tire for tame trails. Had no problems with it out on T100. But my first trip down Geronimo I burped twice and another weekend on National I burped once or twice. I was running lower pressures but not ridiculously low but the "race" version I have is a thinner version so I should've expected it. Switched to dual ply WTB Prowler on front and Dissent on back and haven't had any problems on the chunkier trails at PMP. We'll see how it fares on National tomorrow morning...

  19. #19
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    I have a set of Hope Pro II and 819 built by Peter at Rage. I run a Conti Trail King UST 2.4 up front and WTB Tubeless Wolverine 2.2 in back, both with Cafelatex. So far they have held up very well. I typically run National 2x week and have had no probems with this set up. I was a bit skeptical of the Wolverine, and am still not sold on it, but I do like the Trail king. My new ride will have Flows, so I can compare in a couple of weeks.

  20. #20
    AKA shitbird
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    I'm on my 3rd Maxxis Ardent dual ply 2.4 on 819 for a front tire with sealant, not a single problem with that combo, running them until their worn pretty much bald. I did however have an issue with a 2.5 Dissent and 2.5 Nevegal UST blowing off 819's.

    Just my 2 cents
    JRA

  21. #21
    EDR
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    Quote Originally Posted by eabos View Post
    I'm on my 3rd Maxxis Ardent dual ply 2.4 on 819 for a front tire with sealant, not a single problem with that combo, running them until their worn pretty much bald. I did however have an issue with a 2.5 Dissent and 2.5 Nevegal UST blowing off 819's.

    Just my 2 cents
    I tried mounting a regular Nevegal on my 819's a long time ago, never could get it to seat. A split tube would probably fix that issue. I'm about done with split tubes though. Just tonight I removed it from my High Roller. It's a single ply wire bead version in 2.5. We'll see how that goes. It's aired up and the soaking in the sealant at the bead now. I brushed mold builder all over the interior side walls before mounting, then added a mix of mold builder/slime/water.

    Never ran regular tires on my 819's tubeless without the split tube. Here's to hoping I don't kill myself

  22. #22
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    Mavic x819 / x3.1 Combo

    I've been running an x819/Hope Pro II on front for almost 4 years. Started as a 15mm, then converted to 20mm when I got a 'real' fork.

    I've had the Conti Mtn King 2.4 on it and now run a Panaracer Fire FR 2.4. I had to run a tube in the Conti for about a month to 'shape' the tire, then pulled the tube and ran ust style using Stans. Mounted the Fire FR with Stans without a hitch.

    Run an old Mavic x3.1 UST on rear for 6 years, with a Conti Mtn King 2.4 these days. The Conti's were too flexible to mount initially, so again I ran a tube for about a month before switching to ust style with Stans.

    Peter at Rage built both my wheels and I've never had a problem or so much as a burp or broken spoke. Run them both around 25 psi, but I'm only 172 lbs and don't do huge jumps, usually ride Geronimo , National, Pass Mtn, T100/PMP and recently at Bootleg Canyon, NV.

    Been itching for a pair of Flows for over a year from Dave @ SpeedDream, but can't pull the trigger with these wheels still running well.
    It's not how good you look......it's how well you ride !

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Switched to dual ply WTB Prowler on front and Dissent on back and haven't had any problems on the chunkier trails at PMP. We'll see how it fares on National tomorrow morning...
    Tires worked great on SoMo/National/Mormon this morning. I don't have an accurate gauge but feeling what 28# feels like on another rider's bike (assuming his gauge is accurate) I'd say I'm closer to 25#. No burping at all. I do notice on some rides, like today, a slight wetness around the rim as though just a touch of sealant is leaking out from the bead but there does not appear to be any less air in it than before I left. I suppose if it is leaking slightly it could be attributed to 2.5" tires on a 19mm rim. That's the only issue I've found with my Pitch: narrow rims.

  24. #24
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    Don't want to steal your mojo Mike, but your front looked a touch soft. But if it was working well, go with it, especially as it got you through that first waterfall drop.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpy29er View Post
    Don't want to steal your mojo Mike, but your front looked a touch soft. But if it was working well, go with it, especially as it got you through that first waterfall drop.
    Good to know. All I ever know is what it FEELS like sitting in the garage and I've ridden on less pressure. That time down Geronimo with the Weirwolf up front when I burped twice I started out with less air than today. I'll probably keep it where it's at for now and make any changes as "incidents" occur.

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