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  1. #1
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    The Hogs Have Been Adopted and IMBA and the VVCC Deserve Lots of Credit

    At the last RTCA meeting Jennifer indicated the Hog trail system has been adopted and the press release gives credit to IMBA and the VVCC for this addition of those trails.


    PRESS RELEASE

    Trail Partnership Secures Grant from PeopleForBikes!

    The Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition (VVCC), a local bike advocacy group, is celebrating good news today. In a
    partnership with the International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA) and the US Forest Service the VVCC
    has received a $5000 grant from PeopleForBikes. The grant will go to improve trails in the Broken
    Arrow/Mystic area of the Red Rock Ranger District. In addition to the $5000 from PeopleForBikes, IMBA has
    pledged $2,500 from the IMBA Trail Building Fund.

    Local support was a key factor in securing the grant. Local bike shop Over the Edge Sports have pledged
    volunteer trail work and new trail signage for the project area as well as Absolute Bikes, Bike and Bean will
    support work days with volunteers and libations. The Sedona Real Inn is assisting with free lodging for the
    IMBA trail expert.

    PeopleForBikes (PFB) is a national non-profit organization dedicated to making bicycling safer and more
    accessible for everyone. Several programs, including community grant making, work to improve the
    environment for bicycling and unite a powerful voice to let policy makers, the media, and the public know
    that bicycling is important and should be promoted.

    The local forest district recently authorized the addition of 4.7 miles of trail in the Battlement Mesa area
    including long-time user-created routes known as High on the Hog and Hog Heaven. Federal budget cuts
    have challenged the Districts ability to maintain trails and signage. The grant partnership along with
    neighborhood support made the difference in the Ranger District’s decision to add these trails to the official
    FS trail system. An important focus of the project is to install trail signs that encourage bikers and hikers to
    observe “share the trail” etiquette in this popular area. Work will take place over the winter and spring
    2014. VVCC President Romig says, “This grant helps the community add a beautiful area to our much loved
    trail system.”

    For more information contact Lars Romig, President, VVCC at president@vvcc.us

  2. #2
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    Eggcellent!
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  3. #3
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    Really nice to see progress up there with out all the drama.Those are fun trails.
    Dan in prescott

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixgeardan View Post
    Really nice to see progress up there with out all the drama.Those are fun trails.
    Dan in prescott

    This is definitely a positive sign and we hope there will be more to come.

  5. #5
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    Well done
    Locals' Guide to North Shore Rides http://mtbtrails.ca/

  6. #6
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    Baconater

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeL View Post
    Well done
    the only way to cook bacon. You planning a trip back down to az to ride Hogs?
    Last edited by bugaroo; 10-03-2013 at 10:20 PM. Reason: Wordsmith
    AKA: G-wat

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugaroo View Post
    the only way to cook bacon. You planning a trip back down to az to ride Hogs?
    Tempting
    Locals' Guide to North Shore Rides http://mtbtrails.ca/

  8. #8
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    The Hogs were in great shape today. Chapel is a real challenge after all the last rain a couple weeks ago. There is one section that needs a BIG water diverter which would allow for water to move across the trail rather than DOWN it.

    One rider in our group from Germany cleaned it. He was very happy indeed.

  9. #9
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    Good planning and execution everyone.
    Congratulations from BC (until November)
    TS

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitionSenior View Post
    Good planning and execution everyone.
    Congratulations from BC (until November)
    TS
    We have finally started following your example of ultimate diplomacy and getting the proper approvals to work on or trails. It will be just like working on the GC trails in the coming years.

    If the feds never pass a budget, we will have to do all the building and maintenance ourselves which is the way it should be. Mountain bikers sucking on the government teat when there are higher priorities like education and job training is stupid.

    Actually on the job training side maybe practicing trail building could lead to valuable individual skill development to be a high end landscaper. I think that is certainly a worthy skill during these trying times of outsourcing.

  11. #11
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    I'm still waiting to see someone fix up Pig's Tail.

  12. #12
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    When you say GC are you referring to Gold Canyon?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    When you say GC are you referring to Gold Canyon?
    Gold Canyon is a perfect example of how the mountain biking community has stepped up and volunteered there time to make a nice place for equestrians, hikers and mountain bikers to recreate.

    There are some good examples of well thought out trail alignments and some poorly laid out alignments. My feeling is that poorly laid out alignments don't last long term and give land managers the opportunity to criticize the work product of those volunteers.

    In the past many land managers also built or adopted poorly designed trails that are constantly needing frequent continuous maintenance.

    Where I live there is a trail under consideration for adoption. If you were to go out and look at that trail you would probably question whether the adoption of that trail is being considered as a higher priority than more popular trails that are deemed way more sustainable. Unfortunately the adoption process is highly political so logic based on sustainablity is thrown to the wayside.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to evaluate the erosion characteristics of a trail that has been in existence for three or more years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    Gold Canyon is a perfect example of how the mountain biking community has stepped up and volunteered there time to make a nice place for equestrians, hikers and mountain bikers to recreate.

    There are some good examples of well thought out trail alignments and some poorly laid out alignments. My feeling is that poorly laid out alignments don't last long term and give land managers the opportunity to criticize the work product of those volunteers.

    In the past many land managers also built or adopted poorly designed trails that are constantly needing frequent continuous maintenance.

    Where I live there is a trail under consideration for adoption. If you were to go out and look at that trail you would probably question whether the adoption of that trail is being considered as a higher priority than more popular trails that are deemed way more sustainable. Unfortunately the adoption process is highly political so logic based on sustainablity is thrown to the wayside.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to evaluate the erosion characteristics of a trail that has been in existence for three or more years.
    From what I know and have heard, the only poorly laid out alignment out there was finalized last year by yourself (TrailDoc) and Transition Senior (the Snowbird trail) I recall reading several complaints about this trails sustainability. Previously I've heard no such complaints about any trail out there. Furthermore I recall hearing that a visitor from up north put up a sign reading "No horses". To me these are two perfect examples of reasons why land managers WOULD criticize the work of volunteers, but furthering the issue is you guys leave when it gets warm and leave the problems with us. I may not speak for everyone but if you come back to the Gold Canyon area, please dont pick up a shovel, ever. GC doesn't need you. Please leave it to the people who created it in the first place as they are the ones who have put in the most blood sweat and tears and worked so hard to build the relationship with the local community.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    From what I know and have heard, the only poorly laid out alignment out there was finalized last year by yourself (TrailDoc) and Transition Senior (the Snowbird trail) I recall reading several complaints about this trails sustainability. Previously I've heard no such complaints about any trail out there. Furthermore I recall hearing that a visitor from up north put up a sign reading "No horses". To me these are two perfect examples of reasons why land managers WOULD criticize the work of volunteers, but furthering the issue is you guys leave when it gets warm and leave the problems with us. I may not speak for everyone but if you come back to the Gold Canyon area, please dont pick up a shovel, ever. GC doesn't need you. Please leave it to the people who created it in the first place as they are the ones who have put in the most blood sweat and tears and worked so hard to build the relationship with the local community.
    This is a very passionate post and if it was correct it would have more merit. Unfortunately your information source is feeding you biased information. You have no first hand knowledge about ALL the work out there and the guy who is obsessed using a leaf rack to build a mountain bike trail needs to be a little more honest about which trails are holding up out there.

    Are there any sustainability issues with the Gila Monster trail? Y or N That I believe is a signature trail by your information source.

    Was the no equestrian sign on a trail suitable for equestrians? The land manger where I live has no equestrian signs on trails that would incur severe damage if horses were to ride it regularly. Should we be telling them that they should have never put those signs up?

    On a lighter note is the tortoise still living out there?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    This is a very passionate post and if it was correct it would have more merit. Unfortunately your information source is feeding you biased information. You have no first hand knowledge about ALL the work out there and the guy who is obsessed using a leaf rack to build a mountain bike trail needs to be a little more honest about which trails are holding up out there.

    Are there any sustainability issues with the Gila Monster trail? Y or N That I believe is a signature trail by your information source.

    Was the no equestrian sign on a trail suitable for equestrians? The land manger where I live has no equestrian signs on trails that would incur severe damage if horses were to ride it regularly. Should we be telling them that they should have never put those signs up?

    On a lighter note is the tortoise still living out there?
    So let me get this straight. You come down to Gold Canyon for a few months, while banned from the national forest due to illegal trail building, and now you apparently have first hand knowledge of ALL the work done out there??? Then you come on MTBR, which you were/are banned and insult the local trail boss? Wow John. Your narcissism know no bounds.

    Regardless of what you feel is acceptable for us local riders Im asking you for the final time, that if you or TS come down to GC this winter to please not build/maintain any trail. Please respect that. You don't live here.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  17. #17
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    133 post and we're back to the same old crap with TD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    So let me get this straight. You come down to Gold Canyon for a few months, while banned from the national forest due to illegal trail building, and now you apparently have first hand knowledge of ALL the work done out there??? Then you come on MTBR, which you were/are banned and insult the local trail boss? Wow John. Your narcissism know no bounds.

    Regardless of what you feel is acceptable for us local riders Im asking you for the final time, that if you or TS come down to GC this winter to please not build/maintain any trail. Please respect that. You don't live here.
    Since you didn't answer the question about whether GM has sustainability issues on the long fall line sections I am not sure if you are being forthright with your post. I believe the the intent of the no horses sign may have been to inform equestrians that SB has significant fall line sections that would suffer with heavy equestrian traffic, if that wasn't correct then maybe you have a more accurate explanation.

    When you ride DB from west to east do you ride the left side of the trail where it splits or the right side? Would you say most riders ride the right side without the very steep rock face or they hike up the rock face?

    I really believe your concerns have to do with TS. He like others who have done work at GC have not always done a good routing of their new creations which either leads to unrideable sections by the majority of the users or sections that will either need lots of maintenance or future 're-routing.

    As far as the leaf rake trail builder goes, I personally find it inefficient to see that tool used to build a trail. You have this big strong guy racking through this inhospitable terrain with a leaf rack rather than using a more efficient tool to mark the new route. In reality the routing of a trail is the most important part of the trail building process so marking the route with some type of tool so riders stay on the new route is really important.

    I personally like to use a field hoe built by prohoe. It allows me to carry one tool that I can dag a line in the soil in flat easy sections and I can use it to remove vegetation impeding the routing process or excavate a spot that needs some benching.

    For me personally riding a leaf raked trail in an area like GC is an inefficient way to build a trail and takes away from the riding experience of riding a new trail. It certainly works to mark the route, but I doubt it will become an industry standard for a paid crew or even most volunteer crews.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    133 post and we're back to the same old crap with TD.
    I win the over
    26" isn't dead, it just got FAT



  20. #20
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    Stop getting into the details. Bottom line its not your or TS's trail system. I'm glad you want to come down and enjoy our trails in the winter but its not some sand box to **** around in and then leave the aftermath for the locals to have to deal with. If the local trail boss wants to f up his own trail system that's one thing. When outsiders come down, start adding whatever they want then leave, that's another. Please answer my question. Can you leave the GC trails alone if/when you ever visit again??
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Stop getting into the details. Bottom line its not your or TS's trail system. I'm glad you want to come down and enjoy our trails in the winter but its not some sand box to **** around in and then leave the aftermath for the locals to have to deal with. If the local trail boss wants to f up his own trail system that's one thing. When outsiders come down, start adding whatever they want then leave, that's another. Please answer my question. Can you leave the GC trails alone if/when you ever visit again??
    If I ever ride at GC in the future, I promise to not touch the trails built by the leaf raker especially the poorly routed one's. If I ride a trail not built by the leaf raker guy that has some maintenance needs impeding flow or creating severe erosion I may consider fixing that spot. I envision several wash crossings that might need some help.

    As you probably agree the official trail boss has made some routing decisions that he wishes could be erased. Who is the official trail boss anyway? Which trails did he route and construct to get to be the official trail boss? How many trail bosses has GC had since it became a mountain bike destination? Is he recognized by the land manager as the official trail boss?

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    Does it matter who the trail boss is? It isn't you or Transition Senior. So is it ok if I drive up from Phoenix for a few weeks to Sedona and cut a few new trails to my liking, maybe add a few jumps, and put a sign up saying no hikers? Because lets face it the trail wouldn't be for hikers anyway. Then when I'm done Ill just leave. I mean you can just show up and do whatever you want in Sedona as long as you do it under the guise of making a better mountain biking user experience right?

    I think you found out the answer to this the hard way didn't you? What makes you think we want you coming down here and doing the same thing to our trails?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Does it matter who the trail boss is? It isn't you or Transition Senior. So is it ok if I drive up from Phoenix for a few weeks to Sedona and cut a few new trails to my liking, maybe add a few jumps, and put a sign up saying no hikers? Because lets face it the trail wouldn't be for hikers anyway. Then when I'm done Ill just leave. I mean you can just show up and do whatever you want in Sedona as long as you do it under the guise of making a better mountain biking user experience right?

    I think you found out the answer to this the hard way didn't you? What makes you think we want you coming down here and doing the same thing to our trails?
    Can you tell me your best trail construction project to date? If I felt you knew how to build a well thought out fun sustainable trail, I personally wouldn't mind you going anywhere to build it. There are a lot of areas that would benefit from a nice new trail.

    At the RTCA meetings the attendees listed trail concepts they thought would be nice new trail additions on the Sedona landscape. Unfortunately most of the concepts were not realistic due to terrain that would be very expensive to build a trail on.

    Before you head up to Sedona or anywhere else to build a new trail can you share with us where you would want to see one of your trial concepts to be built? Let's go out together and hike your alignment to show me you really have what it takes to be a qualified trail router with a realistic view of what it would take to construct the trail.

    When the GC trail boss was routing a new trail at GC a more experienced trail router decided to make several re-routes of his poorly routed trail. It wasn't a process that took weeks to resolve it was just done without his approval because the new routing made sense.

    Possibly the re-routes without permission were too much for the trail bosses ego to accept, but at least the new trail flows nicely.

    As far as the Snowbird trail goes, I personally believe with several re-routes the trail could be a lot more sustainable. Do you feel the same way or are you not open to making a poorly routed trail more sustainable in the long term?

    Building and maintaining trails is a learning process that takes years to learn. Tyson who worked on Pipeline first then eventually built Captain Ahab put in a lot of hours before being able to construct that trail. Without his imitative that trail would never be there that is for sure.

    Many cool trails would never exist if we waited for the GC trail boss to build them. Did TS construct any trail in GC that you feel has any merit?

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    .....
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    So help me God if any part of GC gets closed due to you or your arrogance. done.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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