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  1. #1
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    The Hogs Have Been Adopted and IMBA and the VVCC Deserve Lots of Credit

    At the last RTCA meeting Jennifer indicated the Hog trail system has been adopted and the press release gives credit to IMBA and the VVCC for this addition of those trails.


    PRESS RELEASE

    Trail Partnership Secures Grant from PeopleForBikes!

    The Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition (VVCC), a local bike advocacy group, is celebrating good news today. In a
    partnership with the International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA) and the US Forest Service the VVCC
    has received a $5000 grant from PeopleForBikes. The grant will go to improve trails in the Broken
    Arrow/Mystic area of the Red Rock Ranger District. In addition to the $5000 from PeopleForBikes, IMBA has
    pledged $2,500 from the IMBA Trail Building Fund.

    Local support was a key factor in securing the grant. Local bike shop Over the Edge Sports have pledged
    volunteer trail work and new trail signage for the project area as well as Absolute Bikes, Bike and Bean will
    support work days with volunteers and libations. The Sedona Real Inn is assisting with free lodging for the
    IMBA trail expert.

    PeopleForBikes (PFB) is a national non-profit organization dedicated to making bicycling safer and more
    accessible for everyone. Several programs, including community grant making, work to improve the
    environment for bicycling and unite a powerful voice to let policy makers, the media, and the public know
    that bicycling is important and should be promoted.

    The local forest district recently authorized the addition of 4.7 miles of trail in the Battlement Mesa area
    including long-time user-created routes known as High on the Hog and Hog Heaven. Federal budget cuts
    have challenged the Districts ability to maintain trails and signage. The grant partnership along with
    neighborhood support made the difference in the Ranger District’s decision to add these trails to the official
    FS trail system. An important focus of the project is to install trail signs that encourage bikers and hikers to
    observe “share the trail” etiquette in this popular area. Work will take place over the winter and spring
    2014. VVCC President Romig says, “This grant helps the community add a beautiful area to our much loved
    trail system.”

    For more information contact Lars Romig, President, VVCC at president@vvcc.us

  2. #2
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    Eggcellent!
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  3. #3
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    Really nice to see progress up there with out all the drama.Those are fun trails.
    Dan in prescott

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    Quote Originally Posted by fixgeardan View Post
    Really nice to see progress up there with out all the drama.Those are fun trails.
    Dan in prescott

    This is definitely a positive sign and we hope there will be more to come.

  5. #5
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    Well done
    Locals' Guide to North Shore Rides http://mtbtrails.ca/

  6. #6
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    Baconater

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeL View Post
    Well done
    the only way to cook bacon. You planning a trip back down to az to ride Hogs?
    Last edited by bugaroo; 10-03-2013 at 10:20 PM. Reason: Wordsmith
    AKA: G-wat

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugaroo View Post
    the only way to cook bacon. You planning a trip back down to az to ride Hogs?
    Tempting
    Locals' Guide to North Shore Rides http://mtbtrails.ca/

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    The Hogs were in great shape today. Chapel is a real challenge after all the last rain a couple weeks ago. There is one section that needs a BIG water diverter which would allow for water to move across the trail rather than DOWN it.

    One rider in our group from Germany cleaned it. He was very happy indeed.

  9. #9
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    Good planning and execution everyone.
    Congratulations from BC (until November)
    TS

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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitionSenior View Post
    Good planning and execution everyone.
    Congratulations from BC (until November)
    TS
    We have finally started following your example of ultimate diplomacy and getting the proper approvals to work on or trails. It will be just like working on the GC trails in the coming years.

    If the feds never pass a budget, we will have to do all the building and maintenance ourselves which is the way it should be. Mountain bikers sucking on the government teat when there are higher priorities like education and job training is stupid.

    Actually on the job training side maybe practicing trail building could lead to valuable individual skill development to be a high end landscaper. I think that is certainly a worthy skill during these trying times of outsourcing.

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    I'm still waiting to see someone fix up Pig's Tail.

  12. #12
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    When you say GC are you referring to Gold Canyon?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    When you say GC are you referring to Gold Canyon?
    Gold Canyon is a perfect example of how the mountain biking community has stepped up and volunteered there time to make a nice place for equestrians, hikers and mountain bikers to recreate.

    There are some good examples of well thought out trail alignments and some poorly laid out alignments. My feeling is that poorly laid out alignments don't last long term and give land managers the opportunity to criticize the work product of those volunteers.

    In the past many land managers also built or adopted poorly designed trails that are constantly needing frequent continuous maintenance.

    Where I live there is a trail under consideration for adoption. If you were to go out and look at that trail you would probably question whether the adoption of that trail is being considered as a higher priority than more popular trails that are deemed way more sustainable. Unfortunately the adoption process is highly political so logic based on sustainablity is thrown to the wayside.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to evaluate the erosion characteristics of a trail that has been in existence for three or more years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    Gold Canyon is a perfect example of how the mountain biking community has stepped up and volunteered there time to make a nice place for equestrians, hikers and mountain bikers to recreate.

    There are some good examples of well thought out trail alignments and some poorly laid out alignments. My feeling is that poorly laid out alignments don't last long term and give land managers the opportunity to criticize the work product of those volunteers.

    In the past many land managers also built or adopted poorly designed trails that are constantly needing frequent continuous maintenance.

    Where I live there is a trail under consideration for adoption. If you were to go out and look at that trail you would probably question whether the adoption of that trail is being considered as a higher priority than more popular trails that are deemed way more sustainable. Unfortunately the adoption process is highly political so logic based on sustainablity is thrown to the wayside.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to evaluate the erosion characteristics of a trail that has been in existence for three or more years.
    From what I know and have heard, the only poorly laid out alignment out there was finalized last year by yourself (TrailDoc) and Transition Senior (the Snowbird trail) I recall reading several complaints about this trails sustainability. Previously I've heard no such complaints about any trail out there. Furthermore I recall hearing that a visitor from up north put up a sign reading "No horses". To me these are two perfect examples of reasons why land managers WOULD criticize the work of volunteers, but furthering the issue is you guys leave when it gets warm and leave the problems with us. I may not speak for everyone but if you come back to the Gold Canyon area, please dont pick up a shovel, ever. GC doesn't need you. Please leave it to the people who created it in the first place as they are the ones who have put in the most blood sweat and tears and worked so hard to build the relationship with the local community.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    From what I know and have heard, the only poorly laid out alignment out there was finalized last year by yourself (TrailDoc) and Transition Senior (the Snowbird trail) I recall reading several complaints about this trails sustainability. Previously I've heard no such complaints about any trail out there. Furthermore I recall hearing that a visitor from up north put up a sign reading "No horses". To me these are two perfect examples of reasons why land managers WOULD criticize the work of volunteers, but furthering the issue is you guys leave when it gets warm and leave the problems with us. I may not speak for everyone but if you come back to the Gold Canyon area, please dont pick up a shovel, ever. GC doesn't need you. Please leave it to the people who created it in the first place as they are the ones who have put in the most blood sweat and tears and worked so hard to build the relationship with the local community.
    This is a very passionate post and if it was correct it would have more merit. Unfortunately your information source is feeding you biased information. You have no first hand knowledge about ALL the work out there and the guy who is obsessed using a leaf rack to build a mountain bike trail needs to be a little more honest about which trails are holding up out there.

    Are there any sustainability issues with the Gila Monster trail? Y or N That I believe is a signature trail by your information source.

    Was the no equestrian sign on a trail suitable for equestrians? The land manger where I live has no equestrian signs on trails that would incur severe damage if horses were to ride it regularly. Should we be telling them that they should have never put those signs up?

    On a lighter note is the tortoise still living out there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    This is a very passionate post and if it was correct it would have more merit. Unfortunately your information source is feeding you biased information. You have no first hand knowledge about ALL the work out there and the guy who is obsessed using a leaf rack to build a mountain bike trail needs to be a little more honest about which trails are holding up out there.

    Are there any sustainability issues with the Gila Monster trail? Y or N That I believe is a signature trail by your information source.

    Was the no equestrian sign on a trail suitable for equestrians? The land manger where I live has no equestrian signs on trails that would incur severe damage if horses were to ride it regularly. Should we be telling them that they should have never put those signs up?

    On a lighter note is the tortoise still living out there?
    So let me get this straight. You come down to Gold Canyon for a few months, while banned from the national forest due to illegal trail building, and now you apparently have first hand knowledge of ALL the work done out there??? Then you come on MTBR, which you were/are banned and insult the local trail boss? Wow John. Your narcissism know no bounds.

    Regardless of what you feel is acceptable for us local riders Im asking you for the final time, that if you or TS come down to GC this winter to please not build/maintain any trail. Please respect that. You don't live here.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  17. #17
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    133 post and we're back to the same old crap with TD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    So let me get this straight. You come down to Gold Canyon for a few months, while banned from the national forest due to illegal trail building, and now you apparently have first hand knowledge of ALL the work done out there??? Then you come on MTBR, which you were/are banned and insult the local trail boss? Wow John. Your narcissism know no bounds.

    Regardless of what you feel is acceptable for us local riders Im asking you for the final time, that if you or TS come down to GC this winter to please not build/maintain any trail. Please respect that. You don't live here.
    Since you didn't answer the question about whether GM has sustainability issues on the long fall line sections I am not sure if you are being forthright with your post. I believe the the intent of the no horses sign may have been to inform equestrians that SB has significant fall line sections that would suffer with heavy equestrian traffic, if that wasn't correct then maybe you have a more accurate explanation.

    When you ride DB from west to east do you ride the left side of the trail where it splits or the right side? Would you say most riders ride the right side without the very steep rock face or they hike up the rock face?

    I really believe your concerns have to do with TS. He like others who have done work at GC have not always done a good routing of their new creations which either leads to unrideable sections by the majority of the users or sections that will either need lots of maintenance or future 're-routing.

    As far as the leaf rake trail builder goes, I personally find it inefficient to see that tool used to build a trail. You have this big strong guy racking through this inhospitable terrain with a leaf rack rather than using a more efficient tool to mark the new route. In reality the routing of a trail is the most important part of the trail building process so marking the route with some type of tool so riders stay on the new route is really important.

    I personally like to use a field hoe built by prohoe. It allows me to carry one tool that I can dag a line in the soil in flat easy sections and I can use it to remove vegetation impeding the routing process or excavate a spot that needs some benching.

    For me personally riding a leaf raked trail in an area like GC is an inefficient way to build a trail and takes away from the riding experience of riding a new trail. It certainly works to mark the route, but I doubt it will become an industry standard for a paid crew or even most volunteer crews.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    133 post and we're back to the same old crap with TD.
    I win the over
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    Stop getting into the details. Bottom line its not your or TS's trail system. I'm glad you want to come down and enjoy our trails in the winter but its not some sand box to **** around in and then leave the aftermath for the locals to have to deal with. If the local trail boss wants to f up his own trail system that's one thing. When outsiders come down, start adding whatever they want then leave, that's another. Please answer my question. Can you leave the GC trails alone if/when you ever visit again??
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Stop getting into the details. Bottom line its not your or TS's trail system. I'm glad you want to come down and enjoy our trails in the winter but its not some sand box to **** around in and then leave the aftermath for the locals to have to deal with. If the local trail boss wants to f up his own trail system that's one thing. When outsiders come down, start adding whatever they want then leave, that's another. Please answer my question. Can you leave the GC trails alone if/when you ever visit again??
    If I ever ride at GC in the future, I promise to not touch the trails built by the leaf raker especially the poorly routed one's. If I ride a trail not built by the leaf raker guy that has some maintenance needs impeding flow or creating severe erosion I may consider fixing that spot. I envision several wash crossings that might need some help.

    As you probably agree the official trail boss has made some routing decisions that he wishes could be erased. Who is the official trail boss anyway? Which trails did he route and construct to get to be the official trail boss? How many trail bosses has GC had since it became a mountain bike destination? Is he recognized by the land manager as the official trail boss?

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    Does it matter who the trail boss is? It isn't you or Transition Senior. So is it ok if I drive up from Phoenix for a few weeks to Sedona and cut a few new trails to my liking, maybe add a few jumps, and put a sign up saying no hikers? Because lets face it the trail wouldn't be for hikers anyway. Then when I'm done Ill just leave. I mean you can just show up and do whatever you want in Sedona as long as you do it under the guise of making a better mountain biking user experience right?

    I think you found out the answer to this the hard way didn't you? What makes you think we want you coming down here and doing the same thing to our trails?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Does it matter who the trail boss is? It isn't you or Transition Senior. So is it ok if I drive up from Phoenix for a few weeks to Sedona and cut a few new trails to my liking, maybe add a few jumps, and put a sign up saying no hikers? Because lets face it the trail wouldn't be for hikers anyway. Then when I'm done Ill just leave. I mean you can just show up and do whatever you want in Sedona as long as you do it under the guise of making a better mountain biking user experience right?

    I think you found out the answer to this the hard way didn't you? What makes you think we want you coming down here and doing the same thing to our trails?
    Can you tell me your best trail construction project to date? If I felt you knew how to build a well thought out fun sustainable trail, I personally wouldn't mind you going anywhere to build it. There are a lot of areas that would benefit from a nice new trail.

    At the RTCA meetings the attendees listed trail concepts they thought would be nice new trail additions on the Sedona landscape. Unfortunately most of the concepts were not realistic due to terrain that would be very expensive to build a trail on.

    Before you head up to Sedona or anywhere else to build a new trail can you share with us where you would want to see one of your trial concepts to be built? Let's go out together and hike your alignment to show me you really have what it takes to be a qualified trail router with a realistic view of what it would take to construct the trail.

    When the GC trail boss was routing a new trail at GC a more experienced trail router decided to make several re-routes of his poorly routed trail. It wasn't a process that took weeks to resolve it was just done without his approval because the new routing made sense.

    Possibly the re-routes without permission were too much for the trail bosses ego to accept, but at least the new trail flows nicely.

    As far as the Snowbird trail goes, I personally believe with several re-routes the trail could be a lot more sustainable. Do you feel the same way or are you not open to making a poorly routed trail more sustainable in the long term?

    Building and maintaining trails is a learning process that takes years to learn. Tyson who worked on Pipeline first then eventually built Captain Ahab put in a lot of hours before being able to construct that trail. Without his imitative that trail would never be there that is for sure.

    Many cool trails would never exist if we waited for the GC trail boss to build them. Did TS construct any trail in GC that you feel has any merit?

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    .....
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    So help me God if any part of GC gets closed due to you or your arrogance. done.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    So help me God if any part of GC gets closed due to you or your arrogance. done.
    get in your BMW 7 and threaten him!!!!
    park in front of his car with 27 roadies and sneer!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    So help me God if any part of GC gets closed due to you or your arrogance. done.
    From your answer I assume you have no new trail concepts you personally are willing to share with us. Does the GC trail boss have any new trail concepts at GC that he is willing to share with the people who use that great riding area?

    I personally think a new alignment to the west of the K trial that could utilize some of the wash that runs through that area for natural features might be a worthy addition. It would pass to the west of the Tech Loop and end up on the trail that passes the Tech Loop entrance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The Hogs Have Been Adopted and IMBA and the VVCC Deserve Lots of Credit-gold-canyon.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    133 post and we're back to the same old crap with TD.
    defies reason that a dedicated well-intentioned person could keeping stepping on his own d!(k over and over.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    Possibly the re-routes without permission were too much for the trail bosses ego to accept, but at least the new trail flows nicely.
    I'm seeing a pattern here...at least you're consistant...first Moab, then Sedona, and now Gold Canyon....
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  30. #30
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    You mean get in my 1998 Jeep Cherokee and leak oil in front of his car while drinking 27 cans of Busch light? You got it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  31. #31
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    With all the advances in medical treatments. It is a shame they can't find proper meds to help people.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    With all the advances in medical treatments. It is a shame they can't find proper meds to help people.
    His medicine was working on and building trails. That is no longer possible in his neck of the woods. At least not without risking further recourse. I don't much like his on-line persona either but the mtb community has enjoyed the fruits of his labors in more than one state. LPS and MAG7 in Moab come to mind. I for one appreciate those efforts as well as those in Sedona. Whether or not you approved of his methods, riders are enjoying some pretty sweet trails because of his efforts, sanctioned and unsanctioned.

    The relentless marketing of Sedona and trolling I could do without but the AZ forum is a less interesting place IMO without him. As far as I can tell he still got banned for being annoying.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    His medicine was working on and building trails. That is no longer possible in his neck of the woods. At least not without risking further recourse. I don't much like his on-line persona either but the mtb community has enjoyed the fruits of his labors in more than one state. LPS and MAG7 in Moab come to mind. I for one appreciate those efforts as well as those in Sedona. Whether or not you approved of his methods, riders are enjoying some pretty sweet trails because of his efforts, sanctioned and unsanctioned.

    The relentless marketing of Sedona and trolling I could do without but the AZ forum is a less interesting place IMO without him. As far as I can tell he still got banned for being annoying.
    I speak for myself, but do not doubt from the information I have obtained. Some nice trials have been built. Yet he should be a worker bee not a queen bee. He has no tack at least online to achieve the goals he sets out to achieve. He has created far more of a disruption on MTBR then was needed.

    Some banter is always entertaining on these types of forums. But this saga has played out over and over too many times to where it is just a tree to piss on anymore.

    But as for this thread. I tend to agree with Douger-1. Where the line is crossed between what one person thinks is a fine trail and has worked on it over time. Only to have someone for out of town do a drive by and have to had their touches? Rogue trail builders seem to think they have a right to do as they please on other peoples land simply because that is what they want to do.

    Not sure what the answer would be, but there has to be some sort builder etiquette on these types of issues.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    I speak for myself, but do not doubt from the information I have obtained. Some nice trials have been built. Yet he should be a worker bee not a queen bee. He has no tack at least online to achieve the goals he sets out to achieve. He has created far more of a disruption on MTBR then was needed.

    Some banter is always entertaining on these types of forums. But this saga has played out over and over too many times to where it is just a tree to piss on anymore.

    But as for this thread. I tend to agree with Douger-1. Where the line is crossed between what one person thinks is a fine trail and has worked on it over time. Only to have someone for out of town do a drive by and have to had their touches? Rogue trail builders seem to think they have a right to do as they please on other peoples land simply because that is what they want to do.

    Not sure what the answer would be, but there has to be some sort builder etiquette on these types of issues.
    Good points but it's not necessarily other people's land, rather public lands. But just as I have found Epicrider making internet maps and giving trails his own names in my neck of the woods, I find the idea of out-of-towners doing their own reroutes just as distasteful. But Gold Canyon appears to have more than one trail GuRu and not necessarily one organized voice. I might be wrong but I believe Traildoc was down there working with someone that was on the outs with some of the others. That's just an observation but I rode some of those trails last winter and thought they were fun.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  35. #35
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    I disagree on the map deal. A map is a printed document and I don't think Dale's maps were ever a sanctioned map. So what he called a trail and what others call a trail is a non issue to me. It’s not like he went out and signed the trails with his names or anything correct?

    But if you have spent a good amount of time to build a trail system. Only to have a few edit your work without consideration of at least discussing it with the people that built it. Well you are going to be the group people have outs with.

    You have a certain group that has been kicked out, banned and so on. They disrupt the process for their own agenda. At least that is my take on the story. So while they may have built some fine trails. The discontent of their actions leads to confrontation wherever they go. That can't be a good thing for our sport.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  36. #36
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    The map wasn't really that big a deal except to a couple of folks who take a lot of pride in knowing and having been part of a trail's history. And it's hard to complain when even a decade later it still remains the best map for the area.

    As for Traildoc the main issue was/is the marketing of trails. But it's a bit of a weird scene in Sedona. The main trail builders were not all on the same page and in general it seems to have become a place for anti-establishment types to rally the cause. Some preferred to keep things secret handshake type deal while others wanted to promote user- or illegally built trails. Whatever agenda but in my mind I don't see anything different than what TD was doing (his own maps and mtbr postings) from the marketing a guiding company like Hermosa Tours was doing. For example, articles in Dirt Rag about being guided and riding illegally built Transcept (now closed) or advertising the great riding with pics of illegal trails while their permit restricted them to system trails.

    Everything got brought to a head in Sedona because of the marketing. But it was going to happen sooner or later.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The map wasn't really that big a deal except to a couple of folks who take a lot of pride in knowing and having been part of a trail's history. And it's hard to complain when even a decade later it still remains the best map for the area.

    As for Traildoc the main issue was/is the marketing of trails. But it's a bit of a weird scene in Sedona. The main trail builders were not all on the same page and in general it seems to have become a place for anti-establishment types to rally the cause. Some preferred to keep things secret handshake type deal while others wanted to promote user- or illegally built trails. Whatever agenda but in my mind I don't see anything different than what TD was doing (his own maps and mtbr postings) from the marketing a guiding company like Hermosa Tours was doing. For example, articles in Dirt Rag about being guided and riding illegally built Transcept (now closed) or advertising the great riding with pics of illegal trails while their permit restricted them to system trails.

    Everything got brought to a head in Sedona because of the marketing. But it was going to happen sooner or later.
    This was all I was asking. Please don't bring your Sedrama to GC especially since if it goes south, what does he care, he doesn't live here anyway.

    I fundamentally disagree with his need to "market" mountain biking the way he does. I knew Sedona was a mountain biking mecca back in the late 90's well before TD arrived. The great trails you rode at GC we there long before TD showed up last winter.

    TD reminds me of the character Lennie in the novel of Mice and Men. He loves the puppy so much he accidentally kills it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I knew Sedona was a pretty limited mountain biking destination back in the late 90's well before TD arrived.
    fixed that for ya. Ask around if you dont believe me.

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    Limited by who's definition? Maybe that is the problem. It was limited in what way? Trails? Amenities? Neon signs saying ride here? Pit toilets?

    Bottom line I knew Sedona was a top spot to mountain bike back then. We chose to ride Moab instead since it was a closer drive from Chicago. Moab also wasn't anything close to what it is today. I didnt have google maps of all the trails but I still had a blast. Is it only a mountain bike destination when its completely commercialized?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    [QUOTE=Douger-1;10739747]Limited by who's definition? Maybe that is the problem. It was limited in what way? Trails? Amenities? Neon signs saying ride here? Pit toilets?
    QUOTE]

    The answer to your question is user-experience. I've been riding Sedona since the late 80s and the difference in number and quality of trails is astounding. Sedona is now a mtn bike destination. More so than anywhere else in the state and on par with Moab, Fruita, Crested Butte, Jackson or even Whistler. Most of the players in the bike industry go to Sedona to do product testing. That's the truth and it's not marketing BS. No wonder the FS is trying to regain control of their backyard.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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    [QUOTE=rockman;10739767]
    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Limited by who's definition? Maybe that is the problem. It was limited in what way? Trails? Amenities? Neon signs saying ride here? Pit toilets?
    QUOTE]

    The answer to your question is user-experience. I've been riding Sedona since the late 80s and the difference in number and quality of trails is astounding. Sedona is now a mtn bike destination. More so than anywhere else in the state and on par with Moab, Fruita, Crested Butte, Jackson or even Whistler. Most of the players in the bike industry go to Sedona to do product testing. That's the truth and it's not marketing BS. No wonder the FS is trying to regain control of their backyard.
    ^this.
    its probably beyond hope to search all the past sedrama threads, but if you did you'd find many others like Rockman who know and knew Sedona well for a long time echoing this sentiment. I first rode Sedona in like 2000, it was definitely fun and beautiful, but less and there were fewer trails of pure mtb-friendly singletrack. Some of the most challenging stuff was doubletrack and the well-known system trails like Broken Arrow and Llama. It was fun for a day, but I did not make a point of going there. Hangover blew my mind for what a trail could be first time i rode it ~5 yrs ago. I'm riding Sedona tomorrow, largely tame stuff, and I can't wait cause it will give me a chance to learn parts of the system I don't know that will allow me to hook the really cool stuff together. I never felt that way in 2000.

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    And that is great that things have evolved and I'm sure they will continue too. Maybe I just don't feel that there needs to be such an urgency to evolve so quickly and especially to the point where it becomes counter productive.

    Have a good weekend all. Im looking forward to my suffer fest heading up Montana Mtn tomorrow.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    And that is great that things have evolved and I'm sure they will continue too. Maybe I just don't feel that there needs to be such an urgency to evolve so quickly and especially to the point where it becomes counter productive.

    Have a good weekend all. Im looking forward to my suffer fest heading up Montana Mtn tomorrow.
    Was the evolution of Sedona by one trail builder or a bunch of different groups?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The map wasn't really that big a deal except to a couple of folks who take a lot of pride in knowing and having been part of a trail's history.
    I really liked the stories behind some of the trail names that you told me when we rode up to Ricoch...er....Overlook.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Was the evolution of Sedona by one trail builder or a bunch of different groups?
    One who built two masterpieces is now retired or no longer interested, one continues to work with the FS, one that is not allowed to touch trail anymore, and some others with lesser or more single contributions. As well, as one hiker who built a pretty sweet trail called Trancept.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    One who built two masterpieces is now retired or no longer interested, one continues to work with the FS, one that is not allowed to touch trail anymore, and some others with lesser or more single contributions. As well, as one hiker who built a pretty sweet trail called Trancept.
    So the evolution of the trail system would have progressed with or without a certain individual. When we speak of the days gone by and how much better it is today. I think we should take into account all that have made the place a better riding experience. Not just the one the beats the drum the most.

    These others that have done such great work. Do they also have such a huge beef with the Forrest Service, or did they just make trail and let others enjoy it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    So the evolution of the trail system would have progressed with or without a certain individual. When we speak of the days gone by and how much better it is today. I think we should take into account all that have made the place a better riding experience. Not just the one the beats the drum the most.

    These others that have done such great work. Do they also have such a huge beef with the Forrest Service, or did they just make trail and let others enjoy it?
    Well, that's where the Sedrama comes to play. This is just my opinion or observation but it appears to me that the folks running the advocacy group that the FS is willing to work with (VVVC) didn't really have much of a hand in the evolution of Sedona trais (but lately have seriously come to the plate, ie., HO and HiLine), In contrast, the folks that are/were heavily invested in the trail scene that chose to be a part of the Sedona Mountain Bike Club have cut ties with IMBA and are branded as the group of malcontent, renegade mtn bikers (gosh, they built the trails). They want to be at the table sitting with the FS but at this time are being marginalized by the FS (and IMBA). For whatever reasons, but these are the folks that are the blood and passion that has made Sedona the awesome place that it is. So, it's all just a weird scene. Again, from the outside looking in but that's my take. It probably didn't help the SMBC club to go from a club President (ie., the guy who works with the FS) to the former owner of Mountain Bike Heaven who has an anti-establishment background (ie., see the Sedona 5. The Sedona 's 5's Excellent Adventure - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times)

    In a broad sense (and again just my opinion) but the VVVC is working closely with the FS and doing good things but are willing to accept closures w/t too much of a ruckus and continue to work with the FS to maintain trails (the move forward approach), while the other group (more locals and also composed of those that actually built the damn trails) are disappointed that perfectly good trails are closed (to prove a point by the FS) and are glass empty until they see the FS come through on any new trail proposals. Therein lies The Beef.
    Last edited by rockman; 10-11-2013 at 05:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick View Post
    More fiber and fruit in these diets, please.
    deleted. Spontaneous knee-jerk reaction to the need for fiber.
    Last edited by rockman; 10-11-2013 at 04:59 PM.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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