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  1. #1
    parenting for gnarness
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    Hawes Mudflaps (nee Cardiac) trail work needed

    I went out today and checked out the whole hill. As others reported, definitely clean chunks have been taken out of some of the mudflap waterbars. Other spots have non-rock lines straight through them or go-arounds. This is blowing up the trail. The trail has gotten uniformly wider and of about 10 waterbars not a single one does not have a go-around. In the hour I was there about a dozen riders came by up and down and every single one took the flattest lines around\through the spots in the waterbars. I have to admit I do the same thing cause why not, ride the best line, right? Its going to soon turn this whole hill into a sandy gulley.

    So yes some sanitation, but the majority of the abuse to the hill seems to just be traffic. What to do? I don't personally know $h!t about how to build up that section of trail, but it seems about 2 people x 10 waterbars x 2 hrs would do it? Do we need permission? Do we need to import logs or rocks or shovels? I will ride out with a case of beer and offer up my house for bbq, hot tub, post-party if we can get some people and knock this out...

    ??

  2. #2
    aka Diesel
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I went out today and checked out the whole hill. As others reported, definitely clean chunks have been taken out of some of the mudflap waterbars. Other spots have non-rock lines straight through them or go-arounds. This is blowing up the trail. The trail has gotten uniformly wider and of about 10 waterbars not a single one does not have a go-around. In the hour I was there about a dozen riders came by up and down and every single one took the flattest lines around\through the spots in the waterbars. I have to admit I do the same thing cause why not, ride the best line, right? Its going to soon turn this whole hill into a sandy gulley.

    So yes some sanitation, but the majority of the abuse to the hill seems to just be traffic. What to do? I don't personally know $h!t about how to build up that section of trail, but it seems about 2 people x 10 waterbars x 2 hrs would do it? Do we need permission? Do we need to import logs or rocks or shovels? I will ride out with a case of beer and offer up my house for bbq, hot tub, post-party if we can get some people and knock this out...

    ??

    Well "hell's yeah", I'm in for the work, etc. That's our backyard! Gotta take care of it!
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  3. #3
    dirt visionary
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    I too was also out today for the first time in a while and I can say I am very disappointed in the condition of the system. I also agree mudflaps is in need of serious work as like you said every water bar has a go around and even a fe flaps have chunks cut out of them . I had also noticed alot of of trail sanitation all over they whole system looked super buff and I seen lots of places where rocked were removed during the last rain or shortly after.I checked out those new lines/connectors by foot and they are pathetic. Also I only ran into a few friendly people while I ran into more douches in tighties who think they have the right away when someone is climbing up .I forgot how many newbs ride out there but it became aparent when I was passing the majority on the ups and downs.

    I am down to help if time permits on the day your up to it.
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    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  4. #4
    My other ride is your mom
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    Cholla...just got your msg from yesterday....I was getting back from an overnight trip up north and unable to meet you out there. I'm down to help as long as it's not a powder day....sorry it sounds callous, but that's my deal this time of year. It looks like we're in for a bit of a heat wave up north, so next weekend might be a good time. I can donate some stuff to the effort (a few tools, my sweat, some food for the BBQ, even beer). Just let me know so I can work it in.

    I too feel this is my "backyard"....wondering if some local outreach also might be appropriate. Sorry for the long post ahead of time but I've taken the IMBA "Rules of the Trail" and posted them below with some suggested addendums for Hawes....these could be laminated and posted at popular entry places to the system such as the SW entrance point to Hawes by Las Sendas, the western entry point by the canal/highway, DNA, etc and even ask for permission to talk to some of the social activities coordinators up at the Trailhead club at las sendas and post there. Purely non-confrontational and based upon IMBA rules/standards. Would be open to everyone's input here. As for the outings based out of Las Sendas, the trailhead folks organize hike events for folks...if we could sway a few folks as to our intentions to maintain the trail for all users, we may have a few vocal converts. At this point, we need a few "Hawes Evangelicals" out there spreading the word.

    I'm guessing most of the sanitization is occurring through folks who just don't know better. A little carrot rather than the stick will probably go a long way here.

    The IMBA "Rules of the Trail" are as follows (perhaps we could shorten them to maintain the interest of the readers and emphasize/strengthen the points which address the greatest threat to Hawes - santization and trash - my comments in italices:

    1. Ride On Open Trails Only


    Respect trail and road closures -- ask a land manager for clarification if you are uncertain about the status of a trail. Do not trespass on private land. Obtain permits or other authorization as may be required. Be aware that bicycles are not permitted in areas protected as state or federal Wilderness. -->perhaps shorten this to just the title, and the 1st 2 sentences...ending in "do not trespass on private land". This will please the Las Sendas folks.

    2. Leave No Trace

    Be sensitive to the dirt beneath you. Wet and muddy trails are more vulnerable to damage than dry ones. When the trail is soft, consider other riding options. This also means staying on existing trails and not creating new ones. Don't cut switchbacks. Be sure to pack out at least as much as you pack in. -->add something to the effect of "Existing trails should not be modified by removing rocks, smoothing grades, cutting corners or removing erosion control devices (rock dams or rubber dam's across trails). Removing or altering existing trails ruins the trail experience for users by creating unsustainable conditions during rainy periods and damages the sensitive desert environment"

    3. Control Your Bicycle

    Inattention for even a moment could put yourself and others at risk. Obey all bicycle speed regulations and recommendations, and ride within your limits. -->Perhaps keep the 1st sentence and then add in, "Ride within your limits, and within the path of the trail"

    4. Yield to Others

    Do your utmost to let your fellow trail users know you're coming -- a friendly greeting or bell ring are good methods. Try to anticipate other trail users as you ride around corners. Bicyclists should yield to all other trail users, unless the trail is clearly signed for bike-only travel. Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill, unless the trail is clearly signed for one-way or downhill-only traffic. Strive to make each pass a safe and courteous one. -->perhaps just emphasize the up-hill, down-hill aspects here and the anticipation of users as you ride around corners.

    5. Never Scare Animals

    Animals are easily startled by an unannounced approach, a sudden movement or a loud noise. Give animals enough room and time to adjust to you. When passing horses, use special care and follow directions from the horseback riders (ask if uncertain). Running cattle and disturbing wildlife are serious offenses.


    6. Plan Ahead


    Know your equipment, your ability and the area in which you are riding -- and prepare accordingly. Strive to be self-sufficient: keep your equipment in good repair and carry necessary supplies for changes in weather or other conditions. Always wear a helmet and appropriate safety gear.

    Thoughts, comments, rotten vegies????? Again, I'm not trying to water down IMBA rules or change them...my intention is to call out specific sections which seem to be salient to Hawes.

  5. #5
    parenting for gnarness
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    I really don't know where to begin, what tools or permits, or how to fix things - I'm not knowledgable about trail work. So if anyone can first answer that, then we can pick a date and drum up support from the many other riders.

    I agree with some of the characterizations of people on the system. In an hour I saw 2 guys prop their bikes on kickstands, 2 take a spider trail at the base of Mudflaps that I was blocking off tell me wrt to the climb "What if we want to avoid the grind?", a couple very overwieght lycra guys in toe clips, etc. I'm trying not to get caught up in it, we are all entitled to enjoy the trail. But yeah Hawes is a destination especially for beginners. Add some mistakes, skids, and just volume of riders -- here is what we gots.

  6. #6
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    Possible fix for rock waterbars

    One way to fix a rock water bar people are going around on the high side or one where someone has removed a rock from the center of the bar, is to replace the high side rocks with a much larger flat rock well dug into the ground. The large flat rock is easy to ride over but will still block water and anchor the rest of the water bar. It helps to give people a good alternate line over the water bar, which will keep them from riding around it or removing rocks from the waterbar.

  7. #7
    dirt visionary
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    lets offer to fix the water bars and to decomission that connector at the base.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  8. #8
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    lets offer to fix the water bars and to decomission that connector at the base.
    yeah that is a good goal for one session. I'm thinking either next weekend or 2 weeks from now, 9-12 on a Sat or Sun? what you all think? I have never led up a trail work project. Do we just show up with gloves and shovels and get to it?

  9. #9
    dirt visionary
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    I think the Mesa ranger district over see's the whole area including Hawes. I will see what info I can gather.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  10. #10
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    I will call Debbie Becker at the Mesa District Ranger office on Monday to get a trail work day together. Unless something has changed, the rangers should have all the tools that we need to do the the trail work (McLeods, picks, etc).

    Do you guys have a Saturday or Sunday preference?

  11. #11
    dirt visionary
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    Just the person I was going to email.

    Thanks Scott.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  12. #12
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMac
    I will call Debbie Becker at the Mesa District Ranger office on Monday to get a trail work day together. Unless something has changed, the rangers should have all the tools that we need to do the the trail work (McLeods, picks, etc).

    Do you guys have a Saturday or Sunday preference?
    Hi Scott, I too was about to try to reach you, hope we can rally some Linkers too. Pick one and let's do it, if we build it they will come. especially cause I will bring beer.

  13. #13
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    Unfortunately, I do not have any advice or resources to offer in regards to trail maintenance, but I can offer my time. Please let me know when you decide to head out there and aside from being out of the state from this Thursday through March 9th, I will make time to help out. If the effort is planned for on or after the 9th, I'm there.

  14. #14
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    Cholla...just got your msg from yesterday....I was getting back from an overnight trip up north and unable to meet you out there. I'm down to help as long as it's not a powder day....sorry it sounds callous, but that's my deal this time of year. It looks like we're in for a bit of a heat wave up north, so next weekend might be a good time. I can donate some stuff to the effort (a few tools, my sweat, some food for the BBQ, even beer). Just let me know so I can work it in.

    I too feel this is my "backyard"....wondering if some local outreach also might be appropriate. Sorry for the long post ahead of time but I've taken the IMBA "Rules of the Trail" and posted them below with some suggested addendums for Hawes....these could be laminated and posted at popular entry places to the system such as the SW entrance point to Hawes by Las Sendas, the western entry point by the canal/highway, DNA, etc and even ask for permission to talk to some of the social activities coordinators up at the Trailhead club at las sendas and post there. Purely non-confrontational and based upon IMBA rules/standards. Would be open to everyone's input here. As for the outings based out of Las Sendas, the trailhead folks organize hike events for folks...if we could sway a few folks as to our intentions to maintain the trail for all users, we may have a few vocal converts. At this point, we need a few "Hawes Evangelicals" out there spreading the word.

    I'm guessing most of the sanitization is occurring through folks who just don't know better. A little carrot rather than the stick will probably go a long way here.

    The IMBA "Rules of the Trail" are as follows (perhaps we could shorten them to maintain the interest of the readers and emphasize/strengthen the points which address the greatest threat to Hawes - santization and trash - my comments in italices:

    1. Ride On Open Trails Only


    Respect trail and road closures -- ask a land manager for clarification if you are uncertain about the status of a trail. Do not trespass on private land. Obtain permits or other authorization as may be required. Be aware that bicycles are not permitted in areas protected as state or federal Wilderness. -->perhaps shorten this to just the title, and the 1st 2 sentences...ending in "do not trespass on private land". This will please the Las Sendas folks.

    2. Leave No Trace

    Be sensitive to the dirt beneath you. Wet and muddy trails are more vulnerable to damage than dry ones. When the trail is soft, consider other riding options. This also means staying on existing trails and not creating new ones. Don't cut switchbacks. Be sure to pack out at least as much as you pack in. -->add something to the effect of "Existing trails should not be modified by removing rocks, smoothing grades, cutting corners or removing erosion control devices (rock dams or rubber dam's across trails). Removing or altering existing trails ruins the trail experience for users by creating unsustainable conditions during rainy periods and damages the sensitive desert environment"

    3. Control Your Bicycle

    Inattention for even a moment could put yourself and others at risk. Obey all bicycle speed regulations and recommendations, and ride within your limits. -->Perhaps keep the 1st sentence and then add in, "Ride within your limits, and within the path of the trail"

    4. Yield to Others

    Do your utmost to let your fellow trail users know you're coming -- a friendly greeting or bell ring are good methods. Try to anticipate other trail users as you ride around corners. Bicyclists should yield to all other trail users, unless the trail is clearly signed for bike-only travel. Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill, unless the trail is clearly signed for one-way or downhill-only traffic. Strive to make each pass a safe and courteous one. -->perhaps just emphasize the up-hill, down-hill aspects here and the anticipation of users as you ride around corners.

    5. Never Scare Animals

    Animals are easily startled by an unannounced approach, a sudden movement or a loud noise. Give animals enough room and time to adjust to you. When passing horses, use special care and follow directions from the horseback riders (ask if uncertain). Running cattle and disturbing wildlife are serious offenses.


    6. Plan Ahead


    Know your equipment, your ability and the area in which you are riding -- and prepare accordingly. Strive to be self-sufficient: keep your equipment in good repair and carry necessary supplies for changes in weather or other conditions. Always wear a helmet and appropriate safety gear.

    Thoughts, comments, rotten vegies????? Again, I'm not trying to water down IMBA rules or change them...my intention is to call out specific sections which seem to be salient to Hawes.
    Again, I don't know $h!t, but it seems to me that is all good ideas that can take place irregardless of a trail day. Right now the message that needs to get out is that Hawes is getting loved to death. I nominate Maad as Secretary of Communications! can I get a second?

    my only advice would be keep it short and sweet and positive.

    I saw this on Holy Cross in Fruita.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    Just another half mile...
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    Water bars never really work. They fill in and then turn into mini water falls eroding away the backside making even a bigger stair step to climb over. Over time the drop gets to big to ride over and people try and ride around thus making the trial wider, which is what is happening. This section of trail is basically a fall line trail on a very erodable soil and really needs to be rerouted and countoured to make it more sustainable in that type of soil.

    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I went out today and checked out the whole hill. As others reported, definitely clean chunks have been taken out of some of the mudflap waterbars. Other spots have non-rock lines straight through them or go-arounds. This is blowing up the trail. The trail has gotten uniformly wider and of about 10 waterbars not a single one does not have a go-around. In the hour I was there about a dozen riders came by up and down and every single one took the flattest lines around\through the spots in the waterbars. I have to admit I do the same thing cause why not, ride the best line, right? Its going to soon turn this whole hill into a sandy gulley.

    So yes some sanitation, but the majority of the abuse to the hill seems to just be traffic. What to do? I don't personally know $h!t about how to build up that section of trail, but it seems about 2 people x 10 waterbars x 2 hrs would do it? Do we need permission? Do we need to import logs or rocks or shovels? I will ride out with a case of beer and offer up my house for bbq, hot tub, post-party if we can get some people and knock this out...

    ??

  16. #16
    Fragile - must be Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Water bars never really work. They fill in and then turn into mini water falls eroding away the backside making even a bigger stair step to climb over. Over time the drop gets to big to ride over and people try and ride around thus making the trial wider, which is what is happening. This section of trail is basically a fall line trail on a very erodable soil and really needs to be rerouted and countoured to make it more sustainable in that type of soil.
    I was thinking the same thing when I read this thread. There are many poorly routed areas on the Hawes trails - typically right up the hill instead of crossing the fall line. Yes, this makes for a lightly steeper and more challenging hill, but then the water will always flow down and erode the trail...especially in the soft gravel conditions at Hawes.

    Fixing the water bars in these areas is just a very temporary band-aid. They really need to be re-routed.

    So Jason's desire to fix the water bars is noble, but it's not the correct long term solution. If anything, fixing them in the near term with some planning to re-route the trails in the longer term is the best option. I'm not sure who controls that land, but the appropriate governing body would have to get sold on the idea of proper trail re-routing.


    Thx...Doug

  17. #17
    sprocket
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I really don't know where to begin, what tools or permits, or how to fix things - I'm not knowledgable about trail work. So if anyone can first answer that, then we can pick a date and drum up support from the many other riders.

    I agree with some of the characterizations of people on the system. In an hour I saw 2 guys prop their bikes on kickstands, 2 take a spider trail at the base of Mudflaps that I was blocking off tell me wrt to the climb "What if we want to avoid the grind?", a couple very overwieght lycra guys in toe clips, etc. I'm trying not to get caught up in it, we are all entitled to enjoy the trail. But yeah Hawes is a destination especially for beginners. Add some mistakes, skids, and just volume of riders -- here is what we gots.

    you have a problem with kickstands???

  18. #18
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Water bars never really work. They fill in and then turn into mini water falls eroding away the backside making even a bigger stair step to climb over. Over time the drop gets to big to ride over and people try and ride around thus making the trial wider, which is what is happening. This section of trail is basically a fall line trail on a very erodable soil and really needs to be rerouted and countoured to make it more sustainable in that type of soil.
    I defer to you and others who know trail work better than I do. The back side upto the Mine\Twisted junction, the Upper Mudflaps climb, most of the 10 minute climb out to Power etc could be characterized as having design flaws. I have mixed feelings wrt Hawes about what should or shouldn't be the nature of the trail, based irrationally on my false sense of possession. For awhile I liked that the traffic was making the climbs harder and more rutted, but it hasn't affected the traffic one bit, and instead spawned trail destruction and spider trails.

  19. #19
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    you have a problem with kickstands???
    HEAVEN'S NO! I have one on my Prius, it came free with a box of tampons.
    Last edited by chollaball; 02-24-2009 at 02:35 PM.

  20. #20
    My other ride is your mom
    Reputation: Maadjurguer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball

    my only advice would be keep it short and sweet and positive.

    I saw this on Holy Cross in Fruita.

    I like it...short and sweet.....we could forgoe the "rules" and just go with a copy of the sign you saw in Fruita....I'll work up something to share will all for thoughts.

  21. #21
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    I agree that fixing the mud flaps is simply a band-aid. A reroute is the only long-term, sustainable solution. The problem is that this area is part of the Tonto Forest, and getting new trails built (even a reroute) can take three years or more due to environmental assessments, public comment periods, etc. I can propose a reroute to the forest service and see what type of response I get. When I was talking to Colin of the IMBA Trail Care crew two weeks ago, he said that the forest service tends to take the longest of all the land agencies when it comes to approving trail building.

  22. #22
    pedaller
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    That sounds like a problem for Traildoc!

    (cue the Superman theme song)
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  23. #23
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg
    That sounds like a problem for Traildoc!

    (cue the Superman theme song)

    I prefer this

  24. #24
    My other ride is your mom
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    Boulder removed from Disneyland

    More bad news>>>

    I just got back from a ride out at Hawes...sometime between when I last rode Hawes (Friday) and today, a group of individuals removed a large boulder out of the disneyland area of Saddleback trail. This was in a section just as you start to descend and you find yourself turning right into a section where there were some narrows with boulders on either side. This was by no means a gamestopper section....but ocassionaly you would clip your shoe on one of the boulders if you were not paying attention.

    Some group of folks (I'd prefer to refer to them by another name) removed the boulder on the riders left hand side as the rider is descending. This took a section which was slightly wider than your two feet and now makes it 3-4 ft wide....with the potential to erode even wider. I say group of folks because I doubt one person would have been able to do this discretely.

    I found the boulder which was removed....It's fairly large and in no way was accidentally dislodged by hiking or biking activity. The guilty folks clearly moved the boulder 10 feet downhill and off trail. It was clear which boulder it was since the boulder still had dirt stuck to it. I tried moving it....I could have moved it over the course of an hour and a lot of grunting, but prefer to get 2 volunteers to meet me out there and restore this.

    I'm sick of this crap! I will return this to the state that it's been for a long time with your help. I'll bring a small shovel and rock pick to remove the filler the folks filled the hole in and some gloves to wear while moving the boulder. The dimensions of the boulder are about 3ftx3ftx2ft.

    I also stopped every rider I came across and told them about the sanitizing going on....none of them even knew what sanitizing was. I will finish the flyer as Cholla suggested and get them laminated tomorrow and will post up at all the trailheads and signs....

    So....who will join me to help put this feature back? I can do tomorrow morning (wed), thursday or friday....want to get it done soon.

  25. #25
    My other ride is your mom
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    Below is the proposed flyer....thoughts?




    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Maadjurguer; 02-24-2009 at 07:04 PM.

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