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  1. #1
    parenting for gnarness
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    Hawes Mudflaps (nee Cardiac) trail work needed

    I went out today and checked out the whole hill. As others reported, definitely clean chunks have been taken out of some of the mudflap waterbars. Other spots have non-rock lines straight through them or go-arounds. This is blowing up the trail. The trail has gotten uniformly wider and of about 10 waterbars not a single one does not have a go-around. In the hour I was there about a dozen riders came by up and down and every single one took the flattest lines around\through the spots in the waterbars. I have to admit I do the same thing cause why not, ride the best line, right? Its going to soon turn this whole hill into a sandy gulley.

    So yes some sanitation, but the majority of the abuse to the hill seems to just be traffic. What to do? I don't personally know $h!t about how to build up that section of trail, but it seems about 2 people x 10 waterbars x 2 hrs would do it? Do we need permission? Do we need to import logs or rocks or shovels? I will ride out with a case of beer and offer up my house for bbq, hot tub, post-party if we can get some people and knock this out...

    ??

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I went out today and checked out the whole hill. As others reported, definitely clean chunks have been taken out of some of the mudflap waterbars. Other spots have non-rock lines straight through them or go-arounds. This is blowing up the trail. The trail has gotten uniformly wider and of about 10 waterbars not a single one does not have a go-around. In the hour I was there about a dozen riders came by up and down and every single one took the flattest lines around\through the spots in the waterbars. I have to admit I do the same thing cause why not, ride the best line, right? Its going to soon turn this whole hill into a sandy gulley.

    So yes some sanitation, but the majority of the abuse to the hill seems to just be traffic. What to do? I don't personally know $h!t about how to build up that section of trail, but it seems about 2 people x 10 waterbars x 2 hrs would do it? Do we need permission? Do we need to import logs or rocks or shovels? I will ride out with a case of beer and offer up my house for bbq, hot tub, post-party if we can get some people and knock this out...

    ??

    Well "hell's yeah", I'm in for the work, etc. That's our backyard! Gotta take care of it!
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  3. #3
    dirt visionary
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    I too was also out today for the first time in a while and I can say I am very disappointed in the condition of the system. I also agree mudflaps is in need of serious work as like you said every water bar has a go around and even a fe flaps have chunks cut out of them . I had also noticed alot of of trail sanitation all over they whole system looked super buff and I seen lots of places where rocked were removed during the last rain or shortly after.I checked out those new lines/connectors by foot and they are pathetic. Also I only ran into a few friendly people while I ran into more douches in tighties who think they have the right away when someone is climbing up .I forgot how many newbs ride out there but it became aparent when I was passing the majority on the ups and downs.

    I am down to help if time permits on the day your up to it.
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  4. #4
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    Cholla...just got your msg from yesterday....I was getting back from an overnight trip up north and unable to meet you out there. I'm down to help as long as it's not a powder day....sorry it sounds callous, but that's my deal this time of year. It looks like we're in for a bit of a heat wave up north, so next weekend might be a good time. I can donate some stuff to the effort (a few tools, my sweat, some food for the BBQ, even beer). Just let me know so I can work it in.

    I too feel this is my "backyard"....wondering if some local outreach also might be appropriate. Sorry for the long post ahead of time but I've taken the IMBA "Rules of the Trail" and posted them below with some suggested addendums for Hawes....these could be laminated and posted at popular entry places to the system such as the SW entrance point to Hawes by Las Sendas, the western entry point by the canal/highway, DNA, etc and even ask for permission to talk to some of the social activities coordinators up at the Trailhead club at las sendas and post there. Purely non-confrontational and based upon IMBA rules/standards. Would be open to everyone's input here. As for the outings based out of Las Sendas, the trailhead folks organize hike events for folks...if we could sway a few folks as to our intentions to maintain the trail for all users, we may have a few vocal converts. At this point, we need a few "Hawes Evangelicals" out there spreading the word.

    I'm guessing most of the sanitization is occurring through folks who just don't know better. A little carrot rather than the stick will probably go a long way here.

    The IMBA "Rules of the Trail" are as follows (perhaps we could shorten them to maintain the interest of the readers and emphasize/strengthen the points which address the greatest threat to Hawes - santization and trash - my comments in italices:

    1. Ride On Open Trails Only


    Respect trail and road closures -- ask a land manager for clarification if you are uncertain about the status of a trail. Do not trespass on private land. Obtain permits or other authorization as may be required. Be aware that bicycles are not permitted in areas protected as state or federal Wilderness. -->perhaps shorten this to just the title, and the 1st 2 sentences...ending in "do not trespass on private land". This will please the Las Sendas folks.

    2. Leave No Trace

    Be sensitive to the dirt beneath you. Wet and muddy trails are more vulnerable to damage than dry ones. When the trail is soft, consider other riding options. This also means staying on existing trails and not creating new ones. Don't cut switchbacks. Be sure to pack out at least as much as you pack in. -->add something to the effect of "Existing trails should not be modified by removing rocks, smoothing grades, cutting corners or removing erosion control devices (rock dams or rubber dam's across trails). Removing or altering existing trails ruins the trail experience for users by creating unsustainable conditions during rainy periods and damages the sensitive desert environment"

    3. Control Your Bicycle

    Inattention for even a moment could put yourself and others at risk. Obey all bicycle speed regulations and recommendations, and ride within your limits. -->Perhaps keep the 1st sentence and then add in, "Ride within your limits, and within the path of the trail"

    4. Yield to Others

    Do your utmost to let your fellow trail users know you're coming -- a friendly greeting or bell ring are good methods. Try to anticipate other trail users as you ride around corners. Bicyclists should yield to all other trail users, unless the trail is clearly signed for bike-only travel. Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill, unless the trail is clearly signed for one-way or downhill-only traffic. Strive to make each pass a safe and courteous one. -->perhaps just emphasize the up-hill, down-hill aspects here and the anticipation of users as you ride around corners.

    5. Never Scare Animals

    Animals are easily startled by an unannounced approach, a sudden movement or a loud noise. Give animals enough room and time to adjust to you. When passing horses, use special care and follow directions from the horseback riders (ask if uncertain). Running cattle and disturbing wildlife are serious offenses.


    6. Plan Ahead


    Know your equipment, your ability and the area in which you are riding -- and prepare accordingly. Strive to be self-sufficient: keep your equipment in good repair and carry necessary supplies for changes in weather or other conditions. Always wear a helmet and appropriate safety gear.

    Thoughts, comments, rotten vegies????? Again, I'm not trying to water down IMBA rules or change them...my intention is to call out specific sections which seem to be salient to Hawes.

  5. #5
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    I really don't know where to begin, what tools or permits, or how to fix things - I'm not knowledgable about trail work. So if anyone can first answer that, then we can pick a date and drum up support from the many other riders.

    I agree with some of the characterizations of people on the system. In an hour I saw 2 guys prop their bikes on kickstands, 2 take a spider trail at the base of Mudflaps that I was blocking off tell me wrt to the climb "What if we want to avoid the grind?", a couple very overwieght lycra guys in toe clips, etc. I'm trying not to get caught up in it, we are all entitled to enjoy the trail. But yeah Hawes is a destination especially for beginners. Add some mistakes, skids, and just volume of riders -- here is what we gots.

  6. #6
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    Possible fix for rock waterbars

    One way to fix a rock water bar people are going around on the high side or one where someone has removed a rock from the center of the bar, is to replace the high side rocks with a much larger flat rock well dug into the ground. The large flat rock is easy to ride over but will still block water and anchor the rest of the water bar. It helps to give people a good alternate line over the water bar, which will keep them from riding around it or removing rocks from the waterbar.

  7. #7
    dirt visionary
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    lets offer to fix the water bars and to decomission that connector at the base.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  8. #8
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    lets offer to fix the water bars and to decomission that connector at the base.
    yeah that is a good goal for one session. I'm thinking either next weekend or 2 weeks from now, 9-12 on a Sat or Sun? what you all think? I have never led up a trail work project. Do we just show up with gloves and shovels and get to it?

  9. #9
    dirt visionary
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    I think the Mesa ranger district over see's the whole area including Hawes. I will see what info I can gather.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  10. #10
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    I will call Debbie Becker at the Mesa District Ranger office on Monday to get a trail work day together. Unless something has changed, the rangers should have all the tools that we need to do the the trail work (McLeods, picks, etc).

    Do you guys have a Saturday or Sunday preference?

  11. #11
    dirt visionary
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    Just the person I was going to email.

    Thanks Scott.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  12. #12
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMac
    I will call Debbie Becker at the Mesa District Ranger office on Monday to get a trail work day together. Unless something has changed, the rangers should have all the tools that we need to do the the trail work (McLeods, picks, etc).

    Do you guys have a Saturday or Sunday preference?
    Hi Scott, I too was about to try to reach you, hope we can rally some Linkers too. Pick one and let's do it, if we build it they will come. especially cause I will bring beer.

  13. #13
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    Unfortunately, I do not have any advice or resources to offer in regards to trail maintenance, but I can offer my time. Please let me know when you decide to head out there and aside from being out of the state from this Thursday through March 9th, I will make time to help out. If the effort is planned for on or after the 9th, I'm there.

  14. #14
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    Cholla...just got your msg from yesterday....I was getting back from an overnight trip up north and unable to meet you out there. I'm down to help as long as it's not a powder day....sorry it sounds callous, but that's my deal this time of year. It looks like we're in for a bit of a heat wave up north, so next weekend might be a good time. I can donate some stuff to the effort (a few tools, my sweat, some food for the BBQ, even beer). Just let me know so I can work it in.

    I too feel this is my "backyard"....wondering if some local outreach also might be appropriate. Sorry for the long post ahead of time but I've taken the IMBA "Rules of the Trail" and posted them below with some suggested addendums for Hawes....these could be laminated and posted at popular entry places to the system such as the SW entrance point to Hawes by Las Sendas, the western entry point by the canal/highway, DNA, etc and even ask for permission to talk to some of the social activities coordinators up at the Trailhead club at las sendas and post there. Purely non-confrontational and based upon IMBA rules/standards. Would be open to everyone's input here. As for the outings based out of Las Sendas, the trailhead folks organize hike events for folks...if we could sway a few folks as to our intentions to maintain the trail for all users, we may have a few vocal converts. At this point, we need a few "Hawes Evangelicals" out there spreading the word.

    I'm guessing most of the sanitization is occurring through folks who just don't know better. A little carrot rather than the stick will probably go a long way here.

    The IMBA "Rules of the Trail" are as follows (perhaps we could shorten them to maintain the interest of the readers and emphasize/strengthen the points which address the greatest threat to Hawes - santization and trash - my comments in italices:

    1. Ride On Open Trails Only


    Respect trail and road closures -- ask a land manager for clarification if you are uncertain about the status of a trail. Do not trespass on private land. Obtain permits or other authorization as may be required. Be aware that bicycles are not permitted in areas protected as state or federal Wilderness. -->perhaps shorten this to just the title, and the 1st 2 sentences...ending in "do not trespass on private land". This will please the Las Sendas folks.

    2. Leave No Trace

    Be sensitive to the dirt beneath you. Wet and muddy trails are more vulnerable to damage than dry ones. When the trail is soft, consider other riding options. This also means staying on existing trails and not creating new ones. Don't cut switchbacks. Be sure to pack out at least as much as you pack in. -->add something to the effect of "Existing trails should not be modified by removing rocks, smoothing grades, cutting corners or removing erosion control devices (rock dams or rubber dam's across trails). Removing or altering existing trails ruins the trail experience for users by creating unsustainable conditions during rainy periods and damages the sensitive desert environment"

    3. Control Your Bicycle

    Inattention for even a moment could put yourself and others at risk. Obey all bicycle speed regulations and recommendations, and ride within your limits. -->Perhaps keep the 1st sentence and then add in, "Ride within your limits, and within the path of the trail"

    4. Yield to Others

    Do your utmost to let your fellow trail users know you're coming -- a friendly greeting or bell ring are good methods. Try to anticipate other trail users as you ride around corners. Bicyclists should yield to all other trail users, unless the trail is clearly signed for bike-only travel. Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill, unless the trail is clearly signed for one-way or downhill-only traffic. Strive to make each pass a safe and courteous one. -->perhaps just emphasize the up-hill, down-hill aspects here and the anticipation of users as you ride around corners.

    5. Never Scare Animals

    Animals are easily startled by an unannounced approach, a sudden movement or a loud noise. Give animals enough room and time to adjust to you. When passing horses, use special care and follow directions from the horseback riders (ask if uncertain). Running cattle and disturbing wildlife are serious offenses.


    6. Plan Ahead


    Know your equipment, your ability and the area in which you are riding -- and prepare accordingly. Strive to be self-sufficient: keep your equipment in good repair and carry necessary supplies for changes in weather or other conditions. Always wear a helmet and appropriate safety gear.

    Thoughts, comments, rotten vegies????? Again, I'm not trying to water down IMBA rules or change them...my intention is to call out specific sections which seem to be salient to Hawes.
    Again, I don't know $h!t, but it seems to me that is all good ideas that can take place irregardless of a trail day. Right now the message that needs to get out is that Hawes is getting loved to death. I nominate Maad as Secretary of Communications! can I get a second?

    my only advice would be keep it short and sweet and positive.

    I saw this on Holy Cross in Fruita.
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  15. #15
    Just another half mile...
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    Water bars never really work. They fill in and then turn into mini water falls eroding away the backside making even a bigger stair step to climb over. Over time the drop gets to big to ride over and people try and ride around thus making the trial wider, which is what is happening. This section of trail is basically a fall line trail on a very erodable soil and really needs to be rerouted and countoured to make it more sustainable in that type of soil.

    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I went out today and checked out the whole hill. As others reported, definitely clean chunks have been taken out of some of the mudflap waterbars. Other spots have non-rock lines straight through them or go-arounds. This is blowing up the trail. The trail has gotten uniformly wider and of about 10 waterbars not a single one does not have a go-around. In the hour I was there about a dozen riders came by up and down and every single one took the flattest lines around\through the spots in the waterbars. I have to admit I do the same thing cause why not, ride the best line, right? Its going to soon turn this whole hill into a sandy gulley.

    So yes some sanitation, but the majority of the abuse to the hill seems to just be traffic. What to do? I don't personally know $h!t about how to build up that section of trail, but it seems about 2 people x 10 waterbars x 2 hrs would do it? Do we need permission? Do we need to import logs or rocks or shovels? I will ride out with a case of beer and offer up my house for bbq, hot tub, post-party if we can get some people and knock this out...

    ??

  16. #16
    Fragile - must be Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Water bars never really work. They fill in and then turn into mini water falls eroding away the backside making even a bigger stair step to climb over. Over time the drop gets to big to ride over and people try and ride around thus making the trial wider, which is what is happening. This section of trail is basically a fall line trail on a very erodable soil and really needs to be rerouted and countoured to make it more sustainable in that type of soil.
    I was thinking the same thing when I read this thread. There are many poorly routed areas on the Hawes trails - typically right up the hill instead of crossing the fall line. Yes, this makes for a lightly steeper and more challenging hill, but then the water will always flow down and erode the trail...especially in the soft gravel conditions at Hawes.

    Fixing the water bars in these areas is just a very temporary band-aid. They really need to be re-routed.

    So Jason's desire to fix the water bars is noble, but it's not the correct long term solution. If anything, fixing them in the near term with some planning to re-route the trails in the longer term is the best option. I'm not sure who controls that land, but the appropriate governing body would have to get sold on the idea of proper trail re-routing.


    Thx...Doug

  17. #17
    sprocket
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I really don't know where to begin, what tools or permits, or how to fix things - I'm not knowledgable about trail work. So if anyone can first answer that, then we can pick a date and drum up support from the many other riders.

    I agree with some of the characterizations of people on the system. In an hour I saw 2 guys prop their bikes on kickstands, 2 take a spider trail at the base of Mudflaps that I was blocking off tell me wrt to the climb "What if we want to avoid the grind?", a couple very overwieght lycra guys in toe clips, etc. I'm trying not to get caught up in it, we are all entitled to enjoy the trail. But yeah Hawes is a destination especially for beginners. Add some mistakes, skids, and just volume of riders -- here is what we gots.

    you have a problem with kickstands???

  18. #18
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Water bars never really work. They fill in and then turn into mini water falls eroding away the backside making even a bigger stair step to climb over. Over time the drop gets to big to ride over and people try and ride around thus making the trial wider, which is what is happening. This section of trail is basically a fall line trail on a very erodable soil and really needs to be rerouted and countoured to make it more sustainable in that type of soil.
    I defer to you and others who know trail work better than I do. The back side upto the Mine\Twisted junction, the Upper Mudflaps climb, most of the 10 minute climb out to Power etc could be characterized as having design flaws. I have mixed feelings wrt Hawes about what should or shouldn't be the nature of the trail, based irrationally on my false sense of possession. For awhile I liked that the traffic was making the climbs harder and more rutted, but it hasn't affected the traffic one bit, and instead spawned trail destruction and spider trails.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    you have a problem with kickstands???
    HEAVEN'S NO! I have one on my Prius, it came free with a box of tampons.
    Last edited by chollaball; 02-24-2009 at 02:35 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball

    my only advice would be keep it short and sweet and positive.

    I saw this on Holy Cross in Fruita.

    I like it...short and sweet.....we could forgoe the "rules" and just go with a copy of the sign you saw in Fruita....I'll work up something to share will all for thoughts.

  21. #21
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    I agree that fixing the mud flaps is simply a band-aid. A reroute is the only long-term, sustainable solution. The problem is that this area is part of the Tonto Forest, and getting new trails built (even a reroute) can take three years or more due to environmental assessments, public comment periods, etc. I can propose a reroute to the forest service and see what type of response I get. When I was talking to Colin of the IMBA Trail Care crew two weeks ago, he said that the forest service tends to take the longest of all the land agencies when it comes to approving trail building.

  22. #22
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    That sounds like a problem for Traildoc!

    (cue the Superman theme song)
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg
    That sounds like a problem for Traildoc!

    (cue the Superman theme song)

    I prefer this

  24. #24
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    Boulder removed from Disneyland

    More bad news>>>

    I just got back from a ride out at Hawes...sometime between when I last rode Hawes (Friday) and today, a group of individuals removed a large boulder out of the disneyland area of Saddleback trail. This was in a section just as you start to descend and you find yourself turning right into a section where there were some narrows with boulders on either side. This was by no means a gamestopper section....but ocassionaly you would clip your shoe on one of the boulders if you were not paying attention.

    Some group of folks (I'd prefer to refer to them by another name) removed the boulder on the riders left hand side as the rider is descending. This took a section which was slightly wider than your two feet and now makes it 3-4 ft wide....with the potential to erode even wider. I say group of folks because I doubt one person would have been able to do this discretely.

    I found the boulder which was removed....It's fairly large and in no way was accidentally dislodged by hiking or biking activity. The guilty folks clearly moved the boulder 10 feet downhill and off trail. It was clear which boulder it was since the boulder still had dirt stuck to it. I tried moving it....I could have moved it over the course of an hour and a lot of grunting, but prefer to get 2 volunteers to meet me out there and restore this.

    I'm sick of this crap! I will return this to the state that it's been for a long time with your help. I'll bring a small shovel and rock pick to remove the filler the folks filled the hole in and some gloves to wear while moving the boulder. The dimensions of the boulder are about 3ftx3ftx2ft.

    I also stopped every rider I came across and told them about the sanitizing going on....none of them even knew what sanitizing was. I will finish the flyer as Cholla suggested and get them laminated tomorrow and will post up at all the trailheads and signs....

    So....who will join me to help put this feature back? I can do tomorrow morning (wed), thursday or friday....want to get it done soon.

  25. #25
    My other ride is your mom
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    Below is the proposed flyer....thoughts?




    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Maadjurguer; 02-24-2009 at 07:04 PM.

  26. #26
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    [QUOTE=Maadjurguer]Below is the proposed flyer....thoughts?





  27. #27
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    City of Goodyear has a detail for the water bars, here's a link to the .pdf

    http://www.ci.goodyear.az.us/DocumentView.asp?DID=3762

    So if you're gonna go playing with the trail, follow the detail to maintain positive drainage.

  28. #28
    dirt visionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG410
    City of Goodyear has a detail for the water bars, here's a link to the .pdf

    http://www.ci.goodyear.az.us/DocumentView.asp?DID=3762

    So if you're gonna go playing with the trail, follow the detail to maintain positive drainage.
    This is to repair existing water bars which are imbeded rubber Slats. We will only be fixing them by returning them to their orginal stats which can not be removed or have their angles changed . Water flow will go where it needs to . I can remember when there was rock on both sides of the rubber slats and water shed of it very well.

    I problem is that people have since removed almost all of such said rock and have also gone as far as riding around them destroying the plants. These side go arounds that go up and around can also be fixed keeping people on proper trail. This climb used to be a good workout and if you were able to get over each waterbar and its rocks you were good.I rarely ever seen anyone clear the whole thing in one shot . Now you can just pedal up no issues .
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    This is to repair existing water bars which are imbeded rubber Slats. We will only be fixing them by returning them to their orginal stats which can not be removed or have their angles changed . Water flow will go where it needs to . I can remember when there was rock on both sides of the rubber slats and water shed of it very well.

    I problem is that people have since removed almost all of such said rock and have also gone as far as riding around them destroying the plants. These side go arounds that go up and around can also be fixed keeping people on proper trail. This climb used to be a good workout and if you were able to get over each waterbar and its rocks you were good.I rarely ever seen anyone clear the whole thing in one shot . Now you can just pedal up no issues .
    When I hike-a-bike'd my fat ass up that hill last time, I stayed on the trail and step over the water bars, so I had plenty of time to look at them Doesn't look like they are doing much currently, so having rocks around the rubber slats makes sense. Unfortunately I never rode Hawes before it was messed with.

  30. #30
    dirt visionary
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    No worries.

    Yeh the old rocks were dug out from both sides and then loose stuff put in to fill the holes allowing you to just ride over most of them. Then that wasn't easy enough so they started going to the left side. Some of this could be from the runners/joggers that frequent the are also.Running down or up around is easier than making it up a water bar so I don't place all the blame on other MTB's.

    When done it will again be a challenge up or down while providing proper run off once again.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    More bad news>>>

    I just got back from a ride out at Hawes...sometime between when I last rode Hawes (Friday) and today, a group of individuals removed a large boulder out of the disneyland area of Saddleback trail. This was in a section just as you start to descend and you find yourself turning right into a section where there were some narrows with boulders on either side. This was by no means a gamestopper section....but ocassionaly you would clip your shoe on one of the boulders if you were not paying attention.

    Some group of folks (I'd prefer to refer to them by another name) removed the boulder on the riders left hand side as the rider is descending. This took a section which was slightly wider than your two feet and now makes it 3-4 ft wide....with the potential to erode even wider. I say group of folks because I doubt one person would have been able to do this discretely.

    I found the boulder which was removed....It's fairly large and in no way was accidentally dislodged by hiking or biking activity. The guilty folks clearly moved the boulder 10 feet downhill and off trail. It was clear which boulder it was since the boulder still had dirt stuck to it. I tried moving it....I could have moved it over the course of an hour and a lot of grunting, but prefer to get 2 volunteers to meet me out there and restore this.

    I'm sick of this crap! I will return this to the state that it's been for a long time with your help. I'll bring a small shovel and rock pick to remove the filler the folks filled the hole in and some gloves to wear while moving the boulder. The dimensions of the boulder are about 3ftx3ftx2ft.

    I also stopped every rider I came across and told them about the sanitizing going on....none of them even knew what sanitizing was. I will finish the flyer as Cholla suggested and get them laminated tomorrow and will post up at all the trailheads and signs....

    So....who will join me to help put this feature back? I can do tomorrow morning (wed), thursday or friday....want to get it done soon.
    That boulder was missing when I rode out there Sat AM. I've clipped that rock, and lost at least one rear derailer (sp) to the rock on the other side over the 15+ years I've been riding Hawes...but NEVER has it occurred to me the trail should be changed 'cause I slipped up.

    Anyway...I'll be out there Fri AM. And likely again either Sat or Sun AM. Usually start between 8-8:30. Would be glad to lend a hand pushing the rock back into place. We can try to set something up here...or PM me if interested and I'll shoot you my number.

  32. #32
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    me personally...I'd lose the warm fuzzies and say
    "this trail is designed to be challenging"
    and
    "any modications must be approved by the Forest Service"

    and I'd put them at every trail head and on Mudflaps and where you saw the sanitization, using some stakes in the ground.

    But I really don't know the right way to do this - i kinda figure you are certainly not making it worse. Hopefully Scott, Dale and some others who have seen this all before have correct suggestions.

    I'm just sitting back aghast. I've seen these threads before but never about a trail I cared much about, and I simply can not fathom what experience people are looking for if they are making these changes. Who has the arrogance to think that such changes should be made when you obviously are not a very experienced rider? its not going to stop either - eventually they will flatten Upper Mudflaps, the rock bridge through the switchbacks etc as they ride further into the system.

    It really seems to me that the degradation was mild up until maybe the last year when the damage has snowballed. Maad I think did the right thing trying to talk to people and make them aware, to use this in a positive way, and I'm down for some of that per ride, but that is a lot of conversations. If you send me a copy of the sign, I don't mind printing a bunch and swinging by the parking lots and such and communicating to those I see.

    Is there a better way to get this to stop?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    Is there a better way to get this to stop?
    Ya...move the shooting range from Usery over to the West side of the hills and tell the guys to shoot any anybody who isn't staying on the designated trail.

    Personally, I think Hawes is screwed. If the areas is under control of the Feds, then you can bet nothing will get done soon (unlike SoMo and PMP, where the City of Phx has a willingness and an urgency to either maintain the trails themselves or let volunteer groups do it without too much hassle). And to make matters worse, the terrain at Hawes is very fragile, just like P&D -- soft granite which breaks down to kitty litter -- and once the destruction begins, there is no way to revert it back to its original state.

    I hope you East Sider's can get something happening soon. And if there is anything I can do to help (i.e. email the crap out of an elected official or other governing body), let me know. I've never been a huge fan of Hawes because of the kitty-litter terrain and destruction to parts of the trail system, but a trail is a trail...and we have to fight to preserve all of them.

    Thx...Doug

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    me personally...I'd lose the warm fuzzies and say
    "this trail is designed to be challenging"
    and
    "any modications must be approved by the Forest Service"
    I was going to use the copy you provided from Fruita verbatim, but then vacillated between invoking the FS....technically....it's correct....just did not want to give the impression that this was the FS posting the signs....but that would not necessarily be a bad thing????

    Anyways...I've took out the fuzzy stuff and put the FS reference back in.

    As for joining me out there, let's pick a time to post these as well as fix that one boulder I referred to in a previous post on this thread....that irks me even more than mudflaps simply because it makes even LESS sense....

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    me personally...I'd lose the warm fuzzies and say
    "this trail is designed to be challenging"
    and
    "any modications must be approved by the Forest Service"
    .
    .
    It really seems to me that the degradation was mild up until maybe the last year when the damage has snowballed.
    Agree with you 100%...mentioning the Tonto FS seems to make it pack a bit more punch.

    As for the trail being screwed or not because of it's management...I dunno. Am far from a fan of any of these agencies and how they affect my desert hobbies - both good and bad. The whole Hawes area was created without involvement from the TFS, but major re-routes - even if for preservation - would surely have to follow long, slow, channels for "official" approval. Do some enterprising individuals just take it on themselves to do the necessary mods??? Probably not the answer anyone wants to hear...but maybe the only one that would actually be effective.

    I also agree with the last statement of yours I quoted. I don't know what happened in the last year or so, but the trail damage has really ramped up. That area had survived so well for so many years. Sure, things got a little wider and some minor reroutes were established, but not really much of any big deal. Then WHAM...all this stuff seems to be happening at once. In addition to the individual spots of damage, a very big portion of the Ridge Trail "catwalks" have shifted a good 3ft downhill...again, mostly in the last year or so. Hawes survived the mtn bike boom of the 90's. There were tons of newbs out there...and the trail didn't get hammered like it has recently. Maybe there were just more experienced riders on trail at same time, or leading the newbs, so proper trail behavior was taught more then than now???

  36. #36
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    Time to get Don at DNA to let his newbs know not to try to improve the trails but improve their skills instead when he points them in that dirrection to ride. As a matter of fact each shop should do their part by providing a simple photo copy of the IMBA rules of the trail to provide to all first time buyers.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    I was going to use the copy you provided from Fruita verbatim, but then vacillated between invoking the FS....technically....it's correct....just did not want to give the impression that this was the FS posting the signs....but that would not necessarily be a bad thing????

    Anyways...I've took out the fuzzy stuff and put the FS reference back in.

    As for joining me out there, let's pick a time to post these as well as fix that one boulder I referred to in a previous post on this thread....that irks me even more than mudflaps simply because it makes even LESS sense....
    I can get out for a bit this weekend, if you are around. I have a PassMtn ride planned already for Friday lunch, which I really want to hit. If we can't hook up, if you can email me the file I will post some signs on my own - more can't hurt. I think weekends are a good time to be doing signage etc cause it gives you an opportunity to talk to others.

    Again - if anyone who knows if this is cool or not could provide direction, I would appreciate it - not trying to break rules. I am concerned about some of these signs eventually becoming litter, so I plan to bag whatever trash I see when I am out there posting them, to make up for some of the trash we will generate. I'm going to keep posting and collecting trash for my next several rides.

    Clockwork and other DNA regulars, and all East-side shop goers, please talk to the shop owners and try to get them onboard for communicating to their customers. Even if we rebuilt the whole trail, this is also a problem of education.

    anyone know if the closure I did of the spider trail at the base of Mudflaps is still there?

  38. #38
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    I just heard back from Debbie Becker at the Forest Service. Looks like we just have to pick a date.

    Here's the reply to my e-mail:


    Yes, it would be great to at least clean the water bars now. And, a reroute may be our only alternative.
    I am very busy this week with Travel Management. If you could schedule a day for your group to head out I will make out a volunteer agreement for you.
    I will have Allen give you a call.
    Thanks Scott.

    Debbie Becker
    Recreation, Lands & Wilderness
    dsbecker@fs.fed.us
    Mesa Ranger District
    5140 E. Ingram St.
    Mesa, AZ 85205
    480-610-3341

  39. #39
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    Thanks Scott for the update. So we need a date then .
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    As for joining me out there, let's pick a time to post these as well as fix that one boulder I referred to in a previous post on this thread....that irks me even more than mudflaps simply because it makes even LESS sense....
    Hey MJ. I was planning on riding out there Thurs after work. Should be FIP by 4:30 from the Walgreens lot. I would be more than happy to assist in putting that boulder back or pounding in a bit of signage. If you're planning on being out send me a PM with your contact info and I will meet you somewhere. Dave

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Thanks Scott for the update. So we need a date then .
    I should be available for some time during any of the next few weekends. Scott you probably know best how much lead time, which days and times, and if we would conflict with races or established rides etc... So I'm good with you picking a good time and then we all do our best to make it and\or drum up support as best we can.

  42. #42
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    Trail work days (proposed)

    There is a MBAA race on March 14th, so I'm leaning towards the 7th or the 21st (Saturday). Stan Klonowski is working with me to have have a Bob trailer or two available to haul tools.

    Any preferences?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMac
    There is a MBAA race on March 14th, so I'm leaning towards the 7th or the 21st (Saturday). Stan Klonowski is working with me to have have a Bob trailer or two available to haul tools.

    Any preferences?

    the 21st will be during Spring Fling, which would affect participation from this board somewhat. Good on the BOB - I am going to try out my new Osprey Talon 22 and see if I can hold a case of beer.

    There are several houses that border onto the top of Mudflaps from Las Sendas. Dunno if its worth asking if we could go through their yards? Its only a 10ish minute ride in from the Walgreens with not a lot of climbing so prolly not worth it. I can bring my baby carrier too to haul some stuff.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    the 21st will be during Spring Fling, which would affect participation from this board somewhat. Good on the BOB - I am going to try out my new Osprey Talon 22 and see if I can hold a case of beer.

    There are several houses that border onto the top of Mudflaps from Las Sendas. Dunno if its worth asking if we could go through their yards? Its only a 10ish minute ride in from the Walgreens with not a lot of climbing so prolly not worth it. I can bring my baby carrier too to haul some stuff.
    TALON 22 will work fine for the beer..

  45. #45
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    Just found a pic from about 10 months ago .

    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  46. #46
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    I can help haul in some stuff too...just need to set a date. Posters are laminated and I will be posting them up tomorrow....can't get out to move back the boulder today, but plan on doing it tomorrow. If anyone can help, let me know what time tomorrow we can meet.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    I can help haul in some stuff too...just need to set a date. Posters are laminated and I will be posting them up tomorrow....can't get out to move back the boulder today, but plan on doing it tomorrow. If anyone can help, let me know what time tomorrow we can meet.
    I'm still planning to ride tomorrow...will be at Walgreens, say 8AM or so. That work for you?

    I drive a gray Yukon, and will most likely be riding the Superlight (red) tomorrow.

    Tom

  48. #48
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    I won't be able to ride until the afternoon....got the fliers laminated today and will post them up on all the trail signs tomorrow as well as hopefully get that boulder back in it's rightful place.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullitTom
    That boulder was missing when I rode out there Sat AM.

    Interesting...I rode on Friday and it was there....so we know it happened sometime during the day on Friday....unless the rats went out there at night and did it.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    I won't be able to ride until the afternoon....got the fliers laminated today and will post them up on all the trail signs tomorrow as well as hopefully get that boulder back in it's rightful place.
    OK...will see if I can find and move that thing at all closer to it's original spot for you.

  51. #51
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    Chollaball, I would love to help but I am getting married on the 7th. You all have fun. The pictures are terrible. The flaps did not look that bad just a year ago. If those pics are from 10 months ago, I can only imagine what they look like now.
    Getting a dropper post is like getting a bidet. I didn't know I needed one until I get one and boy, does my ass thank me.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMPhi767
    Chollaball, I would love to help but I am getting married on the 7th. You all have fun. The pictures are terrible. The flaps did not look that bad just a year ago. If those pics are from 10 months ago, I can only imagine what they look like now.
    thanks for the good wishes Josh, and congrats. I expect (no...demand!) a flask next time we ride!

    You all will hear this once the date is announced, but please do your best to carve out some time to help. if its an hour during your ride--awesome! If you can come for the whole session -- even better. Thanks for reading this and please try to find some time to participate, or at least help spread the word starting NOW to stay on the trail and not change the trail. be nice, but spread the word. thanks everyone!

  53. #53
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    Saw the boulder off the side of the trail yesterday afternoon. That thing is way bigger than I thought it would be. Looks like about half of it was buried though. Was going to attempt to get it back up the hill and in its spot but thought better of it after jostling it around a little bit. Don't think my back would have felt too good after moving it. It had to take someone some significant time and effort to get that thing dislodged. Unbelievable! I asked a couple guys pedaling up that way if they've seen anyone f-ing with the trails and they said no. They didn't stop or seem concerned about it though.

  54. #54
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    Upset

    Bullit and I met up at Walgreens and fixed the boulder issue....we also posted the laminated signs at all the trailhead junctions. We had some good conversations with folks to make them aware of the issues...all of them were very supportive of what we were doing including the Las Sendas hiking group which meets every Friday....out of all the folks we spoke with, they were the most appalled at the person(s) doing the modifications.

    Here are some pics, before and after....hopefully this stuff will stop.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Maadjurguer; 02-27-2009 at 12:22 PM.

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    WOW.. i know now EXACTLY of what your talking about. At first I couldnt remember where the big rock was, but now (with the pictures) I sure can. That is nuts someone moved that rock. :S Doesnt look like a hiker would move that one at all, more of a MTBer... Good job putting it back.

    Jonathan

  56. #56
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    That was our guess too....Hiker could have stepped between the rocks or over the rocks....given the fact that it seems to have happened Friday afternoon to Saturday afternoon last week and it would have required at least two folks to move with tools...we're guessing some enterprising bunch of younger, newer to the sport bikers moved it....perhaps to speed up the flow downhill????

    Either way....don't make sense.

    I know the sign there is a bit obnoxious, but want to draw attention to that spot in particular....I'll remove it if it starts to look tattered or like it will blow away and become more trash.

  57. #57
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    Just got back, and saw a bunch of Maad's signs as well as the handiwork with the boulder - wow, just seeing it, wow what kind of buttplug couldn't ride around that?? guess one who is out of control and not willing to take responsibility for themselves. Anyway, thanks Maad and BullitTom for lending a hand.

    The spider trail at the base of Mudflaps was opened again from where I closed it 2 weeks ago. I built up several big rock walls off Mudflaps and covered the trail with small rocks, sticks, cholla and whatever else was strewn about. Also walked the whole thing and drug whatever large deadfall I could find onto the trail. I did see several joggers on it, maybe next time I will post some signage. A guy came by when I was closing it and was surprised at what I was doing, stating that in his 2 years living in Las Sendas he's seen it the whole time...um, no -- sorry, don't mean to be a grumpy old veteran, but no noob you are wrong. Maybe as a footpath, but its been like just the last few months that its really blown up. I spotted another new entrance from Las Sendas near where the cactus had fallen. Maybe we are fighting an uphill battle against the crowds...but if people want to spider up their backyards, not sure what there is to be done.

    Any further info on a trail work day?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    The spider trail at the base of Mudflaps was opened again from where I closed it 2 weeks ago. I built up several big rock walls off Mudflaps and covered the trail with small rocks, sticks, cholla and whatever else was strewn about. Also walked the whole thing and drug whatever large deadfall I could find onto the trail. I did see several joggers on it, maybe next time I will post some signage. A guy came by when I was closing it and was surprised at what I was doing, stating that in his 2 years living in Las Sendas he's seen it the whole time...um, no -- sorry, don't mean to be a grumpy old veteran, but no noob you are wrong. Maybe as a footpath, but its been like just the last few months that its really blown up.
    Is this the trail that leads down to the wash? If so, it's been there a long time. When I used to live in that area in the 90's there was a trail that went down into the wash and you could connect with the ridge trail that goes up the other side of the wash.

    Anyway, I'm gonna try to make it out for a work day, schedule permitting.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Mikey
    Is this the trail that leads down to the wash? If so, it's been there a long time. When I used to live in that area in the 90's there was a trail that went down into the wash and you could connect with the ridge trail that goes up the other side of the wash.

    Anyway, I'm gonna try to make it out for a work day, schedule permitting.
    sounds like the same, it intersects the intersector trail between the 4 way intersection and the 3-way further east, about a 5 minute walk end-to-end. its never been so wide prior to recently. I saw 3 people hit it just today, after pretty much never seeing anyone on it a few months ago.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Mikey
    Is this the trail that leads down to the wash? If so, it's been there a long time. When I used to live in that area in the 90's there was a trail that went down into the wash and you could connect with the ridge trail that goes up the other side of the wash.

    Anyway, I'm gonna try to make it out for a work day, schedule permitting.
    I tell ya... I noticed nothing different about Hawes on my riding this weekend. Flaps are cut, but the hill is the same (as in always changing). Other lines look just like typical ebb and flow that trails around here go thru during the dry and wet seasons. I've been riding these trails since 95 and stuff will change a little here and there but never very much. If indeed big boulders are missing out there, then I guess I just don't know the trails well enough. I had a marvelous time JRA!

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    I tell ya... I noticed nothing different about Hawes on my riding this weekend. Flaps are cut, but the hill is the same (as in always changing). Other lines look just like typical ebb and flow that trails around here go thru during the dry and wet seasons. I've been riding these trails since 95 and stuff will change a little here and there but never very much. If indeed big boulders are missing out there, then I guess I just don't know the trails well enough. I had a marvelous time JRA!
    yes and no, imo. The changes are gradual, but dramatic in that the whole system has gotten so much wider. how much to bother stressing about it all? Clockwork's pic is revealing, but to what end? Not sure its worth fighting the inevitable increase in usage and the changes that come with it for the sake of "posterity". I'm just sad that the challenge is gone and the trail is wider. It is absolutely way way easier to climb that now, or to work through many other formerly tight sections of the system. I saw go-rounds today around some of the embedded rocks on Ridge trail I've never seen before - takes all the fun out of riding over uneven, off-camber rocks imo.

    On the flip side, its amusing seeing someone pulling over for you to pass on a double-track.

  62. #62
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    Waiting on the rangers...

    I've left messages for the Tonto rangers on Monday and Tuesday. I was shooting for this Saturday to work on the trail, but at this rate it may not be doable. If people aren't doing the MBAA race on the 14th, I can propose that date to the rangers.

  63. #63
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    Trail work this Saturday

    The rangers have the volunteer agreement and Job Hazard Analysis for me to pick up at front desk prior to the 7th. The agreement is for Saturday only unless we reschedule. We are on our own since Ranger Allen Cross can't make it out,

    I will contact Stan about getting the Bob trailer and the MBAA trail tools.

    Let me know if this works for everyone.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMac
    The rangers have the volunteer agreement and Job Hazard Analysis for me to pick up at front desk prior to the 7th. The agreement is for Saturday only unless we reschedule. We are on our own since Ranger Allen Cross can't make it out,

    I will contact Stan about getting the Bob trailer and the MBAA trail tools.

    Let me know if this works for everyone.
    I'll be there (subject to baby-induced scheduling malfunction). I can bring a pick, rake and a couple shovels. What time?

    We should start a new thread, and ask PaulB et al to sticky.

  65. #65
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    Time/location for Hawes trail work (proposed)

    My recommendation would be to meet at the Walgreens parking lot (behind store) at 7:30am on Saturday.

    From Walgreens we cross Power and head into Las Sendas (east). There is a trail entrance on the east side of the canal. Look for the wrought iron fence to your left. Enter the trail at the sidewalk and immediately cross an artificial wash with rocks imbedded into cement. Follow the trail (tour de backyards) due north into the Tonto forest. This access trail crosses the Tonto boundary and makes a sharp right (east). It comes out on the Hawes trail on a sweeping turn. Keep heading due east (gradual uphill). Trail will eventually turn north. When you reach the top of the hill you have reached the section of the trail being worked on.

    Walgreens is located on the NW corner to Thomas and Power roads in north-east Mesa. If you are coming from the 202 Red Mountain eastbound, exit at Power Rd. and take a left (north). Walgreens is at the next intersection. From the westbound 202 Red Mountain, exit at McDowell and take a left (west). The next road is Power. Take a right (north).

    I'm working on obtaining the two MBAA Bob trails which can haul tools. It would be nice if we could ride our bikes to the mud flaps hill.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMac
    My recommendation would be to meet at the Walgreens parking lot (behind store) at 7:30am on Saturday.

    From Walgreens we cross Power and head into Las Sendas (east). There is a trail entrance on the east side of the canal. Look for the wrought iron fence to your left. Enter the trail at the sidewalk and immediately cross an artificial wash with rocks imbedded into cement. Follow the trail (tour de backyards) due north into the Tonto forest. This access trail crosses the Tonto boundary and makes a sharp right (east). It comes out on the Hawes trail on a sweeping turn. Keep heading due east (gradual uphill). Trail will eventually turn north. When you reach the top of the hill you have reached the section of the trail being worked on.

    Walgreens is located on the NW corner to Thomas and Power roads in north-east Mesa. If you are coming from the 202 Red Mountain eastbound, exit at Power Rd. and take a left (north). Walgreens is at the next intersection. From the westbound 202 Red Mountain, exit at McDowell and take a left (west). The next road is Power. Take a right (north).

    I'm working on obtaining the two MBAA Bob trails which can haul tools. It would be nice if we could ride our bikes to the mud flaps hill.
    So let it be written, so let it be done.

    wow! always wanted to say that! I'll start a new thread in a little while, just in case anyone wants to comment in the meanwhile.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    So let it be written, so let it be done.

    wow! always wanted to say that! I'll start a new thread in a little while, just in case anyone wants to comment in the meanwhile.

    please see this thread specific to the trail work day and stickied up top:

    Hawes Trail Day - Sat 3-7, 7:30am

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    So let it be written, so let it be done.
    "Creeping Death" Very nice

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman
    "Creeping Death" Very nice
    hehehe. Actually I was thinking Yul Brenner in The 10 Commandments.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    I tell ya... I noticed nothing different about Hawes on my riding this weekend. Flaps are cut, but the hill is the same (as in always changing). Other lines look just like typical ebb and flow that trails around here go thru during the dry and wet seasons. I've been riding these trails since 95 and stuff will change a little here and there but never very much. If indeed big boulders are missing out there, then I guess I just don't know the trails well enough. I had a marvelous time JRA!
    I didn't notice any *new* trails either...just that the mudflaps section was beat. If drainage there isn't cleaned, then I expect to see some huge rills develop right down the fall line w/in one monsoon season. Seems like it is worth a few hours of work.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jean-louey
    I didn't notice any *new* trails either...just that the mudflaps section was beat. If drainage there isn't cleaned, then I expect to see some huge rills develop right down the fall line w/in one monsoon season. Seems like it is worth a few hours of work.
    the new trail, which AZMikey points out correctly is not exactly new but much bigger recently, comes right at the bottom of the big hill and little hill in a turn, so it is easy to fly by it if you carry speed into one of the uphills.

    I am hoping veyr much that our presence out there will be an opportunity to communicate to many other users in a friendly way that we all need to look out for the system. I've printed about 50 copies of Maad's flyer to hand out to folks who seem interested.

  72. #72
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    Maad,

    Last time I was out there (a couple weeks ago) I noticed that your ROCK had been dislodged again - but still in place. I don't think it was by sanitation however.

    Anyone know if it's still there?
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg
    Maad,

    Last time I was out there (a couple weeks ago) I noticed that your ROCK had been dislodged again - but still in place. I don't think it was by sanitation however.

    Anyone know if it's still there?
    yes, and yes. NR next Wed?

  74. #74
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    yup...."MY" rock has slowly crept downhill with the dirt behind it opening up....but I always figured that it would not settle until the rains came and filled in the gap between the solid hillside and the backside of the rock....if anything....it will make the gap a little tighter which is fine by me....NR sounds good

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