Results 1 to 41 of 41
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    6

    Gravity MTB Park in Phoenix; You interested?

    Iv'e got this crazy idea rattling around in my head. Wouldn't it be cool if we had some challenging downhill only trails for MTB'rs that was close to the Phx Metro area? Sure we have South Mountain. Sure you could drive to Mt Lemon or Mt Elden or Sedona. But all the options are either a few hours drive and/or have hikers/horses sharing the trail.


    Would you:

    1. Be interested in a set of MTB'r specific trails offering a shuttle service and 1800 feet of steep technical descents all within an hour drive from downtown PHX?
    2. Like natural features with technical rock gardens and drops or flowy trails with man-made features and big air?
    3. Like a mix of one-way XC trails and DH specific trails?
    4. Pay for a day pass or season pass to ride and/or shuttle or would you grumble about paying?
    5. Rent good quality demo downhill bikes and gear on-site?
    6. Volunteer (or trade for riding rights) to build AND maintain trails?


    I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

    I have a location in mind and am actively pursuing a formal plan. Trying to gauge interest before I get too far along.

  2. #2
    Meatbomb
    Reputation: Phillbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    6,126
    Not what you want to hear but No.

    More info about the location may change my mind but I can't think of anything local this could happen and be profitable.


    Globe / Miami area?

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dsrt taco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    246
    Always interested in new locations to ride, especially close to home. That being said, for me personally, unless there are lifts or a shuttle service included in the price I'm not paying more than a few bucks to ride any trail.

    Also, this is most likely not a good forum to gauge interest in pay-to-play DH oriented type trails.

  4. #4
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,712
    Is it 15 degrees cooler than metro Phoenix?
    It ain't supposed to be easy.

    Make
    America
    Gravel
    Again

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    124
    Build it and they will come. You can always sell the land/let the lease expire.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: k2rider1964's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,085
    I don't live in PHX but I honestly believe that if you were to go thru with your plans on had a quality product, people would come and pay...just as long as you provided a shuttle. Just look at Skypark out here in the Big Bear area of SoCal. They built a "park" that provides NO shuttle or lifts and the place is going off. Literally every single person I've talked to that has went has nothing but great things to say about the place. Most of them bought season passes even though we are 90 minutes away with no traffic and 3 hours in traffic coming home.

    Of course, there will always be XC riders and people climbing to earn their turns but the youngsters (aka future of the sport) are into the gravity and freeride scene. They are also a generation who hasn't has to work as hard so many (most?) of them don't like to climb and embrace the shuttles and lifts.
    2019 Yeti SB5C
    2018 Intense Tracer
    2017 Intense Primer

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,535
    I have zero interest in paying for a day pass. I might ride some new trails, but probably not often. I don't do big air and not a fan of man made features. For tech descending we already have good trails in town that I personally don't ride so more won't be used by me.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  8. #8
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,880
    I'd for sure be a yes, particularly one-way and shuttle. Keep us updated as your plan moves forward.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  9. #9
    Addicted to 2 wheels
    Reputation: SugarHigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    951
    I would be interested for sure. I would love more flow, jump, technical gravity options. Happy to pay. Schedule is always my challenge, so closer would be better. I enjoy a shuttle too.

    Good luck in your plan. Take MTBR feedback with a grain of salt. More XC oriented crowd on here.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    I would love more flow, jump, technical gravity options. Happy to pay. Schedule is always my challenge, so closer would be better. I enjoy a shuttle too.

    Take MTBR feedback with a grain of salt. More XC oriented crowd on here.
    Thanks for the feedback... I am posting in other forums as well. Wanting to start a conversation with multiple user types.



    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I have zero interest in paying for a day pass. I might ride some new trails, but probably not often. I don't do big air and not a fan of man made features. For tech descending we already have good trails in town that I personally don't ride so more won't be used by me.
    Agree there are a few short technical things in town, but MTB'rs have to hold back for fear of crashing into someone... or at least that should be holding back; but descents are typically short, at least for me. Appreciate the feedback! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I don't live in PHX but I honestly believe that if you were to go thru with your plans on had a quality product, people would come and pay...just as long as you provided a shuttle. Just look at Skypark out here in the Big Bear area of SoCal. They built a "park" that provides NO shuttle or lifts and the place is going off. Literally every single person I've talked to that has went has nothing but great things to say about the place. Most of them bought season passes even though we are 90 minutes away with no traffic and 3 hours in traffic coming home.

    Of course, there will always be XC riders and people climbing to earn their turns but the youngsters (aka future of the sport) are into the gravity and freeride scene. They are also a generation who hasn't has to work as hard so many (most?) of them don't like to climb and embrace the shuttles and lifts.
    Thanks for the Skypark mention. That's a great reference. I envision a similar selection of trails. Something for everyone... even a few trails dedicated to hikers and horses where MTB'rs aren't allowed, just to be fair and safe.

    I love XC but also want the option to go fast downhill too. Plenty of options for both downhill and XC centric trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Is it 15 degrees cooler than metro Phoenix?
    No... shuttle and services would be closed during summer. Reverse of a ski slope.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsrt taco View Post
    Always interested in new locations to ride, especially close to home. That being said, for me personally, unless there are lifts or a shuttle service included in the price I'm not paying more than a few bucks to ride any trail.

    Also, this is most likely not a good forum to gauge interest in pay-to-play DH oriented type trails.
    Definitely will have a shuttle; but no lift. Trail usage might have a nominal daily rate, might be free. Shuttle would be a separate fee. Those who wanted to "earn their turns" could ride up. Those lazy folks like me would pay for their laziness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Not what you want to hear but No.

    More info about the location may change my mind but I can't think of anything local this could happen and be profitable.


    Globe / Miami area?
    Globe or even Jerome would be really awesome... but too far away for the concept. Area I am looking at is north of Cave Creek/Carefree; lots of steep mountains; not as unique and gnarly as Sedona.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,535
    This is all National Forest so won't be able to do thing without the Forest Service.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  12. #12
    Vincit qui patitur
    Reputation: owtdorz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    737
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    This is all National Forest so won't be able to do thing without the Forest Service.
    That is currently what Snowbowl is doing. They have been in talks with the FS.
    Vincit qui patitur
    2014 KONA Process 153
    2016 KONA Operator
    2017 Salsa Powderkeg
    2018 Santa Cruz Tallboy 29 C R

  13. #13
    livin' the dream......
    Reputation: tjkm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,792
    So, the shuttle takes me down after I climb 1800 ft?

    Kidding.......I would be check something like this out. I am curious about the location.
    Less f*cks to give every passing day, use them well. - geraldooka

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,535
    Quote Originally Posted by owtdorz View Post
    That is currently what Snowbowl is doing. They have been in talks with the FS.
    Big difference between taking an area already with infrastructure for winter use and expanding for summer use than to take unused desert and start carving things up. Plus who has the $$$$$$ to back all that up?
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  15. #15
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,880
    Youíve already stated youíre not interested. Why do you need to continue pi$$ing on this dudeís idea? Probably hard to believe, but maybe he knows something that you donít?
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,164
    Can't picture anything that could be shuttled unless he's talking about a shuttle to seven springs and riding to spur cross from there but doubt thats the case and that doesn't fit with what's being described anyway but I'm in the north valley so I'd be interested in some fast trail riding nearby...

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2
    Absolutely would be all over this!

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Youíve already stated youíre not interested. Why do you need to continue pi$$ing on this dudeís idea? Probably hard to believe, but maybe he knows something that you donít?
    Cave Creek area is my backyard. I am interested in any new trails in the area. If this private land, state trust land or city land then I could see something happening. However given it national forest land and we have to deal with NFS it am thinking this is a pipe dream. But I could be wrong. I will believe it when it see it however. I am not holding my breath.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    24
    Absolutely, would ride and happily work on trail. If you truly know a piece of land making this a viable business oppty would love to be a part of it and help.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,164
    Is the paid shuttle at south mountain still running?

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    24
    I think so...dude was shuttling us for a beerduro last November

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mad Reptilian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    339
    I'd be in.

    Singletracks just had an article on this concept.
    The only trace I leave behind is tire marks.

  23. #23
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,880
    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    Is the paid shuttle at south mountain still running?
    Shortbus is still running, I think one day a week.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dsrt taco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Shortbus is still running, I think one day a week.
    Last one for the season this is this Sunday, 6am until it gets too hot to ride.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,164
    South mountain has the trails, roads and riders so other than a shuttle none of the expenses the OP would be looking at ... might be something to look at and consider the level of success there first.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeParadise View Post
    Sounds like a great idea. Some suggestions to appeal to the widest audience and increase your chance of success:

    • Size it for mountain bikes. If you size it for BMX / dirt jumpers, you're limiting your population.
    • Build trails/features to accomodate the majority of the population's skill levels, which isn't double-black. You should include advanced features, but that shouldn't be the main focus.
    • Build proper progressions so riders can learn / coaches can teach there. There's no quicker way to turn new riders off then by building stuff that is intimidating right off the bat and (in the absence of a coach) no option for riders to safely figure it out on their own.
    • Research other successful parks that have been built in a similar fashion and find out why they succeeded. Also learn from the ones that have failed, have a limited following or don't attract a large community.


    I'm a Level 2 BICP skills coach (working on Level 3, and Level 1 Instructor Trainer) and have a good working relationship with the organization. I can help bring to bear some resources that could aid in your success, depending on your commitment.

    Good luck! Let us know what your next steps are.

    Cheers,
    Scott
    Fully agree with the progression of skills and building for the masses. I am not a super rider myself, and typically keep my wheels on the ground. But, I want to progress and love a challenge. Ideally, each trail would have multiple lines to choose from to keep from getting stale and each trail could cater to a variety of skill levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    South mountain has the trails, roads and riders so other than a shuttle none of the expenses the OP would be looking at ... might be something to look at and consider the level of success there first.
    Agreed, you can shuttle and ride south mountain one way, but the point is that you don't really have the freedom to ride as hard you want without ruffling feathers. It's not dedicated to or designed by, bikers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Reptilian View Post
    I'd be in.

    Singletracks just had an article on this concept.
    Sweet... I'll look it up! It's not the one about Durango is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Cave Creek area is my backyard. I am interested in any new trails in the area. If this private land, state trust land or city land then I could see something happening. However given it national forest land and we have to deal with NFS it am thinking this is a pipe dream. But I could be wrong. I will believe it when it see it however. I am not holding my breath.
    Location is in the National Forest. I've dealt with the forest in the past and know they are notoriously difficult to work with, especially on new concepts. But, the forest service is changing and there are other case studies of this concept in recent years... and I am a firm believer that there is no impossible task. Only really hard tasks that have not had a creative solution applied to them yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    Can't picture anything that could be shuttled unless he's talking about a shuttle to seven springs and riding to spur cross from there but doubt thats the case and that doesn't fit with what's being described anyway but I'm in the north valley so I'd be interested in some fast trail riding nearby...
    There are a couple of peaks in the seven springs area with some good vertical. But, the spot I've scouted has at least 1800 feet... and no I am not suggesting a shuttle to seven springs only to ride cross country to Spur Cross. This is a true downhill experience.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,164
    MrTorque is there an existing road at the site?

    The road up south mountain isn't even that high of an elevation difference. Seems like the road alone would be too expensive not to mention getting the FS to allow the destruction that goes with that..
    Last edited by broncbuster; 05-17-2018 at 08:37 AM.

  28. #28
    Black and Sticky
    Reputation: Bituman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    694
    I would welcome a bike park that fits your model and would likely buy a season pass. I am mostly XC rider but would probably try DH under the conditions you describe. But it would be great if you could incorporate some XC into the mix. I think BikeParadise makes some good points. The only barrier I can think of would be cost of insurance. Iím sure you have already thought of this.

    Good luck with your idea. Keep us informed.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    6
    Yes... there is already vehicular access to the top. Really I just need the FS to grant approval to cut a few new trails, and exclude horses and hikers; which I feel will be the biggest push back. Trails are historically full use, open to everyone. Second consideration is cutting trails that are sustainable and donít cause erosion; which is why I am reaching out to some weíll known trail builders that have worked closely with the forest service across the country.

  30. #30
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,712
    You may get more push back over cultural and historical sites, that part of AZ. is rife with them.
    It ain't supposed to be easy.

    Make
    America
    Gravel
    Again

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    You may get more push back over cultural and historical sites, that part of AZ. is rife with them.
    Agreed! Fully anticipate an archeological study of some sort... and I really want to respect the land. Preserve the beauty and cultural history while also inviting more people to have fun and experience the land in their own way.

  32. #32
    Just another half mile...
    Reputation: Epicrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,046
    This must be the road that goes up to Humbolt Mtn where the FAA radar tower is located. Terrain looks not to steep to route some trails off the top. Will be a challenge to get this through the Forest NEPA approval process with the limited funds they have, but if you pay for all the studies it could go much faster. A bike park like this is the only thing keeping Phoenix from being a Gold Level ride center.

    Personally, I wouldn't ride it very much since I am more old school and prefer naturalized trails over made made structures.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTorque View Post
    Yes... there is already vehicular access to the top. Really I just need the FS to grant approval to cut a few new trails, and exclude horses and hikers; which I feel will be the biggest push back. Trails are historically full use, open to everyone. Second consideration is cutting trails that are sustainable and donít cause erosion; which is why I am reaching out to some weíll known trail builders that have worked closely with the forest service across the country.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,164
    Sounds right but not exactly within an hour of downtown Phoenix for trying to guess the location..
    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    This must be the road that goes up to Humbolt Mtn where the FAA radar tower is located. Terrain looks not to steep to route some trails off the top. Will be a challenge to get this through the Forest NEPA approval process with the limited funds they have, but if you pay for all the studies it could go much faster. A bike park like this is the only thing keeping Phoenix from being a Gold Level ride center.

    Personally, I wouldn't ride it very much since I am more old school and prefer naturalized trails over made made structures.
    Last edited by broncbuster; 05-17-2018 at 04:52 PM.

  34. #34
    Just A Mountain Biker.
    Reputation: blaklabl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,228
    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    This must be the road that goes up to Humbolt Mtn where the FAA radar tower is located.
    This is what I was thinking...
    MTBR: Your dad's online mountain bike forum.



  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,164
    Any existing mtb trails there?

    Really could be a sweet deal if built for everyone as described...

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    6,453
    Quote Originally Posted by owtdorz View Post
    That is currently what Snowbowl is doing. They have been in talks with the FS.
    Yes, it's in their proposed management plan but it will then have to be assessed for NEPA compliance. Because of Snowbowl is a big target for the enviros and Tribes it will probably mean and EIS. That means years despite the rumors going around that SB will soon be building trails and a bike park.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    6,453
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTorque View Post
    Yes... there is already vehicular access to the top. Really I just need the FS to grant approval to cut a few new trails, and exclude horses and hikers; which I feel will be the biggest push back. Trails are historically full use, open to everyone. Second consideration is cutting trails that are sustainable and donít cause erosion; which is why I am reaching out to some weíll known trail builders that have worked closely with the forest service across the country.
    Did you consider working with the local mountain bike advocacy organization? Maybe they can be of help with the FS since they are already at the table as a partner in the area. https://www.dfmba.org/

  38. #38
    My other ride is your mom
    Reputation: Maadjurguer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,238
    Name:  before.jpg
Views: 333
Size:  31.5 KB
    ......




  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: evdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,840
    It is possible to work with the Forest Service to get new trail networks, but there are definitely some big challenges, and it will take years. First off is the FS has pretty much no funding for new trails. It's not just construction, but the permitting process is very expensive and they will probably want you on the hook for maintenance. Second you need the relationship with them and for someone in the ranger district to champion the project - without someone in the FS who wants it, it will be a lot harder to make it happen. That's also where working with a local advocacy org comes in, as Rockman mentioned.

    In San Diego we are working with the FS on 80 miles of trail north of Ramona, some of which will be directional and MTB-specific, though officially I think the whole thing will be multi-use. A new ranger arrived a couple years ago thinking he'd be in MTB heaven with all the public land around. After he got there he found out there are almost no bike-legal trails on that ranger district. He got to talking with SDMBA and the idea for a trail network in this area took shape, leading to a proposal for an 80 mile trail network to be built in a number of phases. Due to lack of funding SDMBA is raising funds to pay for FS staff time so that biological and archaeological studies needed for the NEPA process can proceed. We're going to need the whole community behind it to help raise funds. The first phase of 20mi of trail is starting to go through the public comment process starting with scoping period, now underway. Once approved we'll also have to raise funds for trail design and construction.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eR2...NeIAo_ABq/view

    It will be a long slog to get this approved, but will be worth it in the end. Good luck with your proposal! Getting an advocacy group on board is not just a suggestion, due to the fund-raising that will likely be required I would think it will be 100% necessary unless you create a new one yourself ("friends of...")

  40. #40
    Vitamin Bike Added
    Reputation: MTBCanuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    615
    Iíd be in for this

  41. #41
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation: big0mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,037
    I'd definitely be in for this but...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTorque View Post
    I just need the FS to grant approval to cut a few new trails, and exclude horses and hikers; which I feel will be the biggest push back.
    Someone must have forgotten to tell you that MTBers are third class citizens and trail users. If there was something lower than third class we would be it.

    I would be completely surprised if you got anything outside of private property banned to everyone but MTBers but I would be tickled pink if this worked. I'll likely be too old to ride it by the time it's built but that's another story...

Similar Threads

  1. Gravity Monster Bullseye vs Gravity Bullseye 27.5
    By BlackHawkXR in forum Fat bikes
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-27-2016, 04:17 PM
  2. Gravity G29 SS vs Gravity 27Five SS
    By V8Interceptor in forum Motobecane
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-26-2016, 10:58 AM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-22-2015, 08:20 PM
  4. Knollfest Phoenix 2013 - who's interested?
    By tiSS'er in forum Knolly
    Replies: 156
    Last Post: 10-13-2013, 04:24 AM
  5. Gravity Soul video from the Gravity East #7
    By thegravitysoul in forum Videos and POV Cameras
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-20-2011, 05:04 AM

Members who have read this thread: 142

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

mtbr.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.