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  1. #1
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    Flag beta - closures?

    Back to AZ after some time away in CO. Planning on heading up to Flag to beat some of the heat on friday/sat.

    Is there a good map that shows whats is closed due to the Schulz burn? I looked at a scanned copy on the forest service site which was hard to tell.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Ahhh the pain....
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    I'm sure many others will chime in here, but basically, little bear, little elden, waterline rd up to the inner basin.
    Luckily, tons of great stuff open and plenty dusty!
    Your limits are both physical and mental. Suffering will help you find and overcome both.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    I'm sure many others will chime in here, but basically, little bear, little elden, waterline rd up to the inner basin.
    Luckily, tons of great stuff open and plenty dusty!
    Thanks! So Sunset trail loop is a go.

    I have not ridden in Flag since 2006. Any new areas/developments worth checking out?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlespeedwi View Post
    Thanks! So Sunset trail loop is a go.

    I have not ridden in Flag since 2006. Any new areas/developments worth checking out?
    yes there are a lot of new developments since 2006! look at epicrider's map. singletrack.us for a taste. however there are more trails than shown!

    b
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc View Post
    yes there are a lot of new developments since 2006! look at epicrider's map. singletrack.us for a taste. however there are more trails than shown!

    b
    New maps at one of the local shops? I will stop into one and get some beta for sure.

  6. #6
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    Is lower Sunset open? Last time I was up there it was closed from the Brookbank intersection down. That was almost a year ago though.

  7. #7
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    here's a link to my gpx file from a few weeks ago that has a new section of AZT that goes east-west. The north-south section of the AZT is really great and plenty of fun on a SS.
    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/91666741.
    As BrianC says, print a copy of Dales map at http://singletrack.us/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=58
    Your limits are both physical and mental. Suffering will help you find and overcome both.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlespeedwi View Post
    Thanks! So Sunset trail loop is a go.

    I have not ridden in Flag since 2006. Any new areas/developments worth checking out?
    A lot of changes since 2006. A lot of fun stuff that isn't on anyone's maps.

    Climbing up Sunset from Schultz Tank, you'll notice a reroute about a half mile from the top of the first climb. If you ride up Elden Lookout Road and ride down Sunset, you'll see that the trail is well worn and full of greater challenges than ever.

    Little Bear is closed and will need massive restoration. That work will not begin until next year.

    A large group of volunteers worked with the Forest Service this past saturday, cleaning up Little Elden Trail. We worked uphill and made it past where Little Bear dumps onto Little Elden. Most of the lower 2 miles of Little Elden had little damage and you don't see burned trees until you get close to the turn onto Little Bear. There are two more volunteer events scheduled by FBO. I think it could have been opened in a month or so but that will not happen. They do not want any restoration work done near the top sections until after September, because they say there is a Mexican Spotted Owl nesting nearby, and they need their privacy during the summer months. The FS does not plan to open the trail this year.

    On the bright side, more and more sections of the AZ Trail are being completed. You can ride from the top of Schultz to Snowbowl on a new section of the AZ Trail. The first couple miles was laid over much of Onceler. It crosses over Dogfood and opens up into some very fast singletrack. A good loop would be to ride up Schultz Creek Trail, ride west on Secret Trail, just past the turn to ride down Super Moto, you'll see a new trail heading downhill also, only much less technical. Some are calling it West Secret, some call it Twisted Sister. My wife calls it Crybaby Trail, for all of us crybabies who don't care so much for Super Moto. Crybaby dumps you onto the gas pipeline, exactly where Rock Moto begins/ends on the other side. Ride Rocky Moto west to where the AZ Trail crosses it. Turn left and ride the AZ Trail back to Schultz, or bail out and head downhill on Lower Moto or Dogfood.

    If you never explored the trails on the east side of town, you can head out of Buffalo Park and up Lower Oldham. About 150 feet after you cross the pipeline, look for a right turn that will take you on some new trails over to Elden Gravesite. Keep heading northeast, staying close to the base of Elden. You'll be on Trails with names like Danzo (which I'm renaming Burning Bush), Calamity Jane, Treadstone, Thirsty Dog, then the familiar Fatmans Loop to Christmas Tree to Sandy Seep to Little Elden. Or you can turn off Christmas Tree and head down into Beyond Thunderdome, where you can find your way to the tunnel under highway 89 at Townsend Winona Road. You will be riding the AZ Trail, which can connect you to Campbell Mesa Trails or to the AZ Trail that runs from Walnut Canyon to Fisher Point, then back to Sam's Club and to Buffalo Park to complete a loop.

    Many people are also discovering the AZ Trail north of aspen corner along Snowbowl Road. The best option is to park about 14 miles north of that section and ride up to where the trail is under construction (near aspen corner) and return going mostly downhill. You'd need to drive out 180 to White Buffalo, turn right and drive about 4 to 7 miles, depending on how far you want to ride. Look for AZ Trail carsonites.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the beta!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Little Bear is closed and will need massive restoration. That work will not begin until next year.
    little bear is in a part of the burn area that has reopened... tho technically roads and trails in the area are still off limits, i guess. other than the trail sign, there no posting at the top that would indicate little bear's closed. but anyway, fwiw, little bear's not in super-bad shape... not too bad anyway, considering. aside from a few big gullies that have been greatly expanded and will need big new cribs to become ridable again, the majority of the trail just needs a lot of good raking with a crew wielding mcleods and a bit of work by the sawyers.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    On the bright side, more and more sections of the AZ Trail are being completed. You can ride from the top of Schultz to Snowbowl on a new section of the AZ Trail. The first couple miles was laid over much of Onceler. It crosses over Dogfood and opens up into some very fast singletrack. A good loop would be to ride up Schultz Creek Trail, ride west on Secret Trail, just past the turn to ride down Super Moto, you'll see a new trail heading downhill also, only much less technical. Some are calling it West Secret, some call it Twisted Sister. My wife calls it Crybaby Trail, for all of us crybabies who don't care so much for Super Moto. Crybaby dumps you onto the gas pipeline, exactly where Rock Moto begins/ends on the other side. Ride Rocky Moto west to where the AZ Trail crosses it. Turn left and ride the AZ Trail back to Schultz, or bail out and head downhill on Lower Moto or Dogfood.
    crybaby. that made me laugh. if twisted sister wasn't such a good name i'd go with that, for sure!
    "Let our people travel light and free on their bicycles." Ed Abbey
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler View Post
    crybaby. that made me laugh. if twisted sister wasn't such a good name i'd go with that, for sure!
    But Twisted Sister is in Mesa!


    Isn't the trail name whatever Dale calls it?





    (jumping back to watch the show, it is Troll season after all)
    b

  12. #12
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    This is totally a rumor at this point, but I just heard from a pretty reputable source that a USFS employee
    stated that Flag was about to get the "Sorry, temporarily closed due to fire danger" message.

    Better get out and get your rides in NOW!

    Yes, just a rumor at this point.

    Dan, have you heard anything along these lines?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc View Post
    But Twisted Sister is in Mesa!

    Isn't the trail name whatever Dale calls it?
    (jumping back to watch the show, it is Troll season after all)
    Ha, he doesn't get a vote. I'm not so sure about Twisted Sister anyway. As far as I know the Moto guys call it Twisty Moto (as per their need to add moto to anything they're legally allowed on and they did much of the work), the local mtb'rs seem to prefer Double Agent, and the FS is still calling it West Secret. They don't like different names for different sections that have been incorporated along the way like Newham.

    As for Little Bear it is still closed, just like ALL trails and roads in the burn area. It may not be signed at the top because somebody probably threw the barricade where you can't see it. http://www.redrockcountry.org/about-...04-11-01-f.pdf

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Ha, he doesn't get a vote. I'm not so sure about Twisted Sister anyway. As far as I know the Moto guys call it Twisty Moto (as per their need to add moto to anything they're legally allowed on and they did much of the work), the local mtb'rs seem to prefer Double Agent, and the FS is still calling it West Secret. They don't like different names for different sections that have been incorporated along the way like Newham.

    well, at least someone laughed at that. I told Dale I heard i was called "west secret".

    I really think the name-blame is ridiculous. so I like to poke fun at it when I can. His map was for him and his friends. Then it took on a life of it's own, but that's internet for you. And it's not like he didn't ask before I made up his own names.

    I wonder if the locals will get mad at the name "Carl" given by a non-yearly resident. If you know where Carl is, then you're in the know.
    b

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick View Post
    This is totally a rumor at this point, but I just heard from a pretty reputable source that a USFS employee
    stated that Flag was about to get the "Sorry, temporarily closed due to fire danger" message.

    Better get out and get your rides in NOW!

    Yes, just a rumor at this point.

    Dan, have you heard anything along these lines?
    Negatory good buddy. But it would not be unusual to close it all down until it rains.

    What really blows is I just got my Niner R.I.P. frame last week and am waiting on a new seatpost to arrive so I can get out on it. I've been forced to strap on the running shoes.

    I guess tomorrow I can put MTB tires on the Dos Niner and ride it. I had designated it the pavement bike or loaner bike.

    If they close down the forest, we may consider a road trip to Durango or Telluride.

    Oh, I felt a little guilty spending so much cabbage on the R.I.P., so I found a used one for the better half to ride. Her Aizan has been beating her up for years.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc View Post
    well, at least someone laughed at that. I told Dale I heard i was called "west secret".

    I really think the name-blame is ridiculous. so I like to poke fun at it when I can. His map was for him and his friends. Then it took on a life of it's own, but that's internet for you. And it's not like he didn't ask before I made up his own names.

    I wonder if the locals will get mad at the name "Carl" given by a non-yearly resident. If you know where Carl is, then you're in the know.
    The trail naming dealio is water under the bridge but .....people are pretty passionate about trails in Flag as well as the history that goes along with them. Normal etiquete anywhere is that the trail builder has the first call. Besides, his map is linked in every beta request on the AZ forum (a quick check of his website shows 279,929 hits). What's not to get? Several times I've run across bikers that whip a printed version out and ask where is Ricochet or Superfly. It's not just a little map shared amongst friends and it also happens to be quite good.

    It does seem kind of silly but when I go other places I'm appreciative of the beta people provide (say the BCT for instance-a lot of passion is going into that) but I sure as hell don't gps them and then put them on a website with different trail names. Maybe that wasn't the intent but it's easily be perceived as arrogance. That's the real issue.

    I've never heard of Carl but know what a "Hot Karl" is. I hope it's in your neck of the woods

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The trail naming dealio is water under the bridge but .....people are pretty passionate about trails in Flag as well as the history that goes along with them. Normal etiquete anywhere is that the trail builder has the first call. Besides, his map is linked in every beta request on the AZ forum (a quick check of his website shows 279,929 hits). What's not to get? Several times I've run across bikers that whip a printed version out and ask where is Ricochet or Superfly. It's not just a little map shared amongst friends and it also happens to be quite good.

    It does seem kind of silly but when I go other places I'm appreciative of the beta people provide (say the BCT for instance-a lot of passion is going into that) but I sure as hell don't gps them and then put them on a website with different trail names. Maybe that wasn't the intent but it's easily be perceived as arrogance. That's the real issue.

    I've never heard of Carl but know what a "Hot Karl" is. I hope it's in your neck of the woods

    Ummm....but you just blamed *him* for the internet popularity of his map. That is some thing the passionate on the name-game issue seem not to forget.

    It *was* a little map.

    The whole GPS and post on internet for all....I was a strong supporter of the show don't tell camp. but given the influence of the internet I've relaxed somewhat on that subject. And I take heat for perceived hypocrisy from time to time. But places that you can down load the actual GPX files is way more of an impact than Dale's map.

    If the builders of said trails wanted all the world to use the names of their beautiful trails, they should have plastered a sign at the start. (Dog Food became Dog Food on his map because there was a tiny sign back when it was first discovered at the first berm)

    Or at least, had the locals been a little more willing to share some information back in the day when Dale was exploring he would have used the correct names. But that lack of local hospitality had a part in the creation of his map. Thus he made up names that made sense to him.

    What the people on your side seem to forget is that no information escaped Flagstaff in those days. Which is why the original trail names never saw the light of the outside world. Look at the names of the crazy trails in Sedona, they are sticking because locals are putting the names the builders intended out for the public for consumption.


    Carl is not a trail name. It's a Maad reference, but he's not around to get it.
    b

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc View Post
    Ummm....but you just blamed *him* for the internet popularity of his map. That is some thing the passionate on the name-game issue seem not to forget.

    It *was* a little map.

    The whole GPS and post on internet for all....I was a strong supporter of the show don't tell camp. but given the influence of the internet I've relaxed somewhat on that subject. And I take heat for perceived hypocrisy from time to time. But places that you can down load the actual GPX files is way more of an impact than Dale's map.

    If the builders of said trails wanted all the world to use the names of their beautiful trails, they should have plastered a sign at the start. (Dog Food became Dog Food on his map because there was a tiny sign back when it was first discovered at the first berm)

    Or at least, had the locals been a little more willing to share some information back in the day when Dale was exploring he would have used the correct names. But that lack of local hospitality had a part in the creation of his map. Thus he made up names that made sense to him.

    What the people on your side seem to forget is that no information escaped Flagstaff in those days. Which is why the original trail names never saw the light of the outside world. Look at the names of the crazy trails in Sedona, they are sticking because locals are putting the names the builders intended out for the public for consumption.


    Carl is not a trail name. It's a Maad reference, but he's not around to get it.
    Good points, but I'm not sure about the inhospitable locals part. It's not like trails are disguised with hidden entrances. Back in the 90s when the presence of social or illegally built trails was a bit more contentious with the FS (with resultant closures) I suspect a query at a bike shop would have perhaps been ignored or whatever. Times are a lot different and much of that goes to local advocacy efforts.

    Also, because I can't help myself the trail you're referring to is Puppy Chow Dogfood proper was named after an Engineer from Purina back in the late 80s.

    As for Maad I can't help but think that reference is to a bad burrito he got from Mike and Rhonda's

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Good points, but I'm not sure about the inhospitable locals part. It's not like trails are disguised with hidden entrances. Back in the 90s when the presence of social or illegally built trails was a bit more contentious with the FS (with resultant closures) I suspect a query at a bike shop would have perhaps been ignored or whatever. Times are a lot different and much of that goes to local advocacy efforts.

    Also, because I can't help myself the trail you're referring to is Puppy Chow Dogfood proper was named after an Engineer from Purina back in the late 80s.

    As for Maad I can't help but think that reference is to a bad burrito he got from Mike and Rhonda's
    I agree times in flagstaff for riding are good....provided we can educate the masses on how to properly and responsibly have a camp fire.

    Carl is a tree special to Maad's heart. He loves Carl, but generally says 'damn you Carl' when he sees him.
    b

  20. #20
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    Itís good to see that locals and out of townerís alike are using my maps to find their way around up there. Brian is mostly correct in that when I was exploring the Flag trails back in the 90ís the local bike shops didnít divulge much trail info and even got erroneous trail info which that gave me the sentiment that the trails are for locals only trails and outsiders are not welcome. That didnít bug me too much; I just never went back to the shops and went on exploring trails on public land. My first maps of the area were made back in early 2000ís when I got my first GPS. Before that I drew a lot by hand over USGS maps and were mostly for my own use and made a few copies for friends. My maps didnít hit the internet until 2004 when I started up my website and they were buried and were not easy to find. It remained that way for several years since most search engines were not able to find my maps buried in my photo albums. I never really promoted my maps until they were found out and became common knowledge. Since then I have revised my Elden Map with the most local used trail names. Even the locals canít agree on trails names for the non-system trails. Each group has their own names for some of the trails up there. Anyway, it looks like I need to get back up there to update my map since you guys have been busy building!

    Quote Originally Posted by brianc View Post
    Ummm....but you just blamed *him* for the internet popularity of his map. That is some thing the passionate on the name-game issue seem not to forget.

    It *was* a little map.

    The whole GPS and post on internet for all....I was a strong supporter of the show don't tell camp. but given the influence of the internet I've relaxed somewhat on that subject. And I take heat for perceived hypocrisy from time to time. But places that you can down load the actual GPX files is way more of an impact than Dale's map.

    If the builders of said trails wanted all the world to use the names of their beautiful trails, they should have plastered a sign at the start. (Dog Food became Dog Food on his map because there was a tiny sign back when it was first discovered at the first berm)

    Or at least, had the locals been a little more willing to share some information back in the day when Dale was exploring he would have used the correct names. But that lack of local hospitality had a part in the creation of his map. Thus he made up names that made sense to him.

    What the people on your side seem to forget is that no information escaped Flagstaff in those days. Which is why the original trail names never saw the light of the outside world. Look at the names of the crazy trails in Sedona, they are sticking because locals are putting the names the builders intended out for the public for consumption.


    Carl is not a trail name. It's a Maad reference, but he's not around to get it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    What really blows is I just got my Niner R.I.P. frame last week and am waiting on a new seatpost to arrive so I can get out on it.
    I think my buddy and I were talking to you at the bottom of Shultz on Sunday. He had a new Pivot... Hope you are still diggin' your R.I.P.

    Can you hear me now?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycljunkie View Post
    I think my buddy and I were talking to you at the bottom of Shultz on Sunday. He had a new Pivot... Hope you are still diggin' your R.I.P.

    You know how it is when folks spend a bundle on a new bike. After their first ride, they post and say how it was like night and day difference from their old rig. That they cleaned stuff they never got over before.

    My experience was nearly the opposite. I was uncomfortable on Rocky Ridge, doing slow speed moves over small and big rocks. Then when we were blasting down Schultz Creek, I was not happy the way the bike handled the high-speed hits. I had years to get my Canzo and my Minute 120 dialed in so I was not shocked about handling issues, mostly coming from the Reba RLT Ti set at 130mm travel. I've never been able to get a Reba set up to run as smooth as my minute, but I'm going to keep making adjustments until I get there.

    I had the steer tube cut today and some other adjustments. I ordered a new front deraileur also. Oddly, the older XTR one I am using is not compatible with the R.I.P. frame, in that the seat tube rises nearly straight up initially and that puts the front deraileur at a poor angle. It means when you are in granny gear, the chain drags along the cross piece on the bottom and back of the deraileur. Even with plenty of sag, the chain was dragging in granny 2,3 and 4. I'm being told I need to use the XT 771 high clamp dual pull 9 spd model.

    I swapped to my heavier stans wheels and hung it on a scale.....30lbs 13oz

    Oh, it turns out I am not free-ride material. Not by a long shot.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    You know how it is when folks spend a bundle on a new bike. After their first ride, they post and say how it was like night and day difference from their old rig. That they cleaned stuff they never got over before.

    My experience was nearly the opposite. I was uncomfortable on Rocky Ridge, doing slow speed moves over small and big rocks. Then when we were blasting down Schultz Creek, I was not happy the way the bike handled the high-speed hits. I had years to get my Canzo and my Minute 120 dialed in so I was not shocked about handling issues, mostly coming from the Reba RLT Ti set at 130mm travel. I've never been able to get a Reba set up to run as smooth as my minute, but I'm going to keep making adjustments until I get there.

    I had the steer tube cut today and some other adjustments. I ordered a new front deraileur also. Oddly, the older XTR one I am using is not compatible with the R.I.P. frame, in that the seat tube rises nearly straight up initially and that puts the front deraileur at a poor angle. It means when you are in granny gear, the chain drags along the cross piece on the bottom and back of the deraileur. Even with plenty of sag, the chain was dragging in granny 2,3 and 4. I'm being told I need to use the XT 771 high clamp dual pull 9 spd model.

    I swapped to my heavier stans wheels and hung it on a scale.....30lbs 13oz

    Oh, it turns out I am not free-ride material. Not by a long shot.
    Prod, I'm sure you will get that puppy dialed in and never look back. 30lbs is a respectable weight for a Large (??) sized 29er trail bike IMHO.
    Can you hear me now?

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