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  1. #1
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    Does Wanting New Trails Mean You Don't Want To Protect The Resource?

    The RTCA trails planning survey is in and the results could be informative about whether mountain bikers can want new trails and also want to protect the resources by building new sustainable trails for their use. According to the person who is compiling the results of the recent survey of the 700+ responses more responders wanted new trails then any other question. Protection of the resource was second on the list.

    Does wanting to protect the resource mean that you as a mountain biker, hiker, equestrian or trail runner you don't want new sustainable trails?

  2. #2
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    i don't think it's that cut & dry.

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  3. #3
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    The Resource?
    What do you - or the survey - mean by "The Resource"?

    "it IS possible that you are faster or slower than anybody else who is having at least as much if not more or less fun"

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by perttime View Post
    The Resource?
    What do you - or the survey - mean by "The Resource"?
    Public land, in this case National Forest land. More specifically, the wildlife, the rocks, the soil, and the plants. What's not to get?

    Got any other info from the meeting last night renegademtnbiker?
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  5. #5
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    Ahhhh.... the natural resources.
    Ooops, I see this is the Arizona Forum and not the general Trail Building forum.
    I don't know your environment. Where I ride, a singletrack trail (or 10) through the land is in no way in conflict with preserving any natural resources.

    Sorry, I'd better bow out of this one.

    "it IS possible that you are faster or slower than anybody else who is having at least as much if not more or less fun"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by perttime View Post
    Ahhhh.... the natural resources.
    Ooops, I see this is the Arizona Forum and not the general Trail Building forum.
    I don't know your environment. Where I ride, a singletrack trail (or 10) through the land is in no way in conflict with preserving any natural resources.

    Sorry, I'd better bow out of this one.
    Well, there wasn't much context form the OP to run with either. It does appear that building trail in AZ is much harder than elsewhere, perhaps because the resources are more fragile. Hard to say.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  7. #7
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    How was the original poll question phrased? The two are not mutually exclusive. I would venture a guess that most mountain bikers are also in favor of protecting the resource. Not only is it in our (and every other trail user's) interest to do so, getting out of the rat race and off the pavement, and going off on two wheels INTO the "resource" is why we ride.
    "Bicycling...is the nearest approximation I know to the flight of birds." Louis Halle

  8. #8
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    Why does one have to assume that trails destroy a resource? A trail is nothing more than a thin ribbon in larger environment. I actually thing that people are more likely to appreciate and therefore protect an environment they can see the beauty of from with in.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=JoePAz; I actually thing that people are more likely to appreciate and therefore protect an environment they can see the beauty of from with in.[/QUOTE]

    I emphatically agree! keeping the resource pure and beautiful will have no public appreciation if no access is permitted. the value of the resource is dependant on its usability. The earth is here for mans use.
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGHORN LEW View Post
    I emphatically agree! keeping the resource pure and beautiful will have no public appreciation if no access is permitted. the value of the resource is dependant on its usability. The earth is here for mans use.
    A poorly routed trail does indeed become resource damage, no matter how many nature lovers get to appreciate nature while hiking or riding a bike or horse on it. Eventually it may become a scar on the land that is hard to heal or mitigate. A properly routed trail, on the other hand, is a thing of beauty.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  11. #11
    Meatbomb
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    What is RTCA ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGHORN LEW View Post
    I emphatically agree! keeping the resource pure and beautiful will have no public appreciation if no access is permitted. the value of the resource is dependant on its usability. The earth is here for mans use.
    and for future generations...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    What is RTCA ?
    Rat Terrier Club of America

  14. #14
    Meatbomb
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    Good I was afraid it was something with Red Rock in it.

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    First of all we need to thank Patrick Kell and IMBA for posting the need to fill out the survey. The person moderating the RTCA meetings and monitoring the survey as the days progressed started that when IMBA put out the survey to their AZ members the responses were dramatic.

    I think the actual responses were around 740, so it will be interesting what else will be learned from the answers.

    This is the interesting part about how the results were explained. It was kind of like mountain bikers want more trails and hikers want to protect the resource. When we get the raw data back we will be able to see if the majority of mountain bikers also were into protecting the resource.

    When the survey was originally announced the question was asked if the survey could go to anyone? The answer was yes but the facilitator realized the group with the best way to communicate to their friends and people of similar interest were going to have a better outcome with what the majority of people want who have the same interest.

    At the meeting it was never suggested that the mountain biker were in favor of protecting the resource as well as wanting new trails.

    At the end of the meeting we did a little brain storming about how to get private funding and volunteers to help with the future trail maintenance needs. The reason for that discussion was that over 65% of people who responded on the survey wanted the FS to pay for all the maintenance. The facilitator said grants are becoming scarce and budgets are supposed to be reduced 5%.

    This crazy mountain biker at the meeting asked the question why the Adopt-a-Trail maintenance program was never been discussed at any of the meetings? You would have thought a bomb went off at the meeting.

    The temporary person incharge of the Sedona FS would not answer the question. So we moved onto another idea called PEER PRESSURE. That same crazy mountain biker chimed in and said he is getting his fellow mountain biking friends to adopt the user created system trails that hae feels will be easy to maintain since the person who routed them took sustainability into consideration.

    He said he is trying to show the FS that his friends can easily maintain properly built trails and that going forward if the FS were to adopt other well built user created trails they also would be easy to maintain.

    The facilitator seemed very frustrated with the crazy mountain bikers POV, and that when he mentioned he recruited four of his friends to participate in the Adopt-a-Trail program she became more frustrated.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    First of all we need to thank Patrick Kell and IMBA for posting the need to fill out the survey. The person moderating the RTCA meetings and monitoring the survey as the days progressed started that when IMBA put out the survey to their AZ members the responses were dramatic.

    I think the actual responses were around 740, so it will be interesting what else will be learned from the answers.

    This is the interesting part about how the results were explained. It was kind of like mountain bikers want more trails and hikers want to protect the resource. When we get the raw data back we will be able to see if the majority of mountain bikers also were into protecting the resource.

    When the survey was originally announced the question was asked if the survey could go to anyone? The answer was yes but the facilitator realized the group with the best way to communicate to their friends and people of similar interest were going to have a better outcome with what the majority of people want who have the same interest.

    At the meeting it was never suggested that the mountain biker were in favor of protecting the resource as well as wanting new trails.

    At the end of the meeting we did a little brain storming about how to get private funding and volunteers to help with the future trail maintenance needs. The reason for that discussion was that over 65% of people who responded on the survey wanted the FS to pay for all the maintenance. The facilitator said grants are becoming scarce and budgets are supposed to be reduced 5%.

    This crazy mountain biker at the meeting asked the question why the Adopt-a-Trail maintenance program was never been discussed at any of the meetings? You would have thought a bomb went off at the meeting.

    The temporary person incharge of the Sedona FS would not answer the question. So we moved onto another idea called PEER PRESSURE. That same crazy mountain biker chimed in and said he is getting his fellow mountain biking friends to adopt the user created system trails that hae feels will be easy to maintain since the person who routed them took sustainability into consideration.

    He said he is trying to show the FS that his friends can easily maintain properly built trails and that going forward if the FS were to adopt other well built user created trails they also would be easy to maintain.

    The facilitator seemed very frustrated with the crazy mountain bikers POV, and that when he mentioned he recruited four of his friends to participate in the Adopt-a-Trail program she became more frustrated.
    Renegade, I'm not sure what the agenda is here. Are you shedding light on what a sham the RTCA process is or what? Your opening query in post #1 sounds like a rhetorical question but I'm not exactly sure what point your trying to make?

    FYI. Saturday, September 7th 2013 The next Adopt a Trail Class is coming right up. Call Forrest Saville for more information and to register. sfsaville@fs.fed.us or 928-606-1748.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  17. #17
    Meatbomb
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    RTCA ? what does it mean?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    RTCA ? what does it mean?
    I think if you Google it you will find your answer.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    RTCA ? what does it mean?
    NPS River Trails Conservation and Assistance Program. You can read all about it here:
    https://docs.google.com/folderview?i...0l4Z0wxYks2NUk
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  20. #20
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    I think this is a riddle.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I think this is a riddle.
    Cat and mouse.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Renegade, I'm not sure what the agenda is here. Are you shedding light on what a sham the RTCA process is or what? Your opening query in post #1 sounds like a rhetorical question but I'm not exactly sure what point your trying to make?

    FYI. Saturday, September 7th 2013 The next Adopt a Trail Class is coming right up. Call Forrest Saville for more information and to register. sfsaville@fs.fed.us or 928-606-1748.
    Others have said the RTCA process is a shame. I think the jury is out on whether it is true or not. I have taken the position to attend as many meetings as possible, so I can make my own decision.

    Several bike shop owners haven't attended since they seem to have higher priorities. The meetings started out with a lot of attendees (over 100) and this last meeting we were down to about fifty.

    What I do know for sure is that the FS is not good at marketing. I also know they have not previously marketed the Adopt-a-Trail program at their trail planning meetings. I also know Jennifer Burns believes it is cheaper to build a new trail from scratch rather than adopting a perfectly sustainable user built trail. I also know you can't contribute money directly to the adoption of a user created trail you may like. I also know that that the FS does poor quality maps. I also know that Adrian and Forest who work for the FS are really nice people and are trying their best.

    What I don't know is whether its personal and whether the brushing rules have changed. An equestrian who attended the meetings to improve safety between equestrians and other users wanted better line of site on the trails, I don't think he ever got an answer if the FS would support that concept. Maybe Justin has some insight about that issue.

    The survey indicated that the majority of people who answered the survey want new trails. The majority of people who attended the meetings said they want new trails. I would assume if we get a bunch of new sustainable trails the RTCA process will have been successful.

    We will have to wait and see. If the FS were to lift the emergency trail closure that would certainly show some good intentions.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    We will have to wait and see. If the FS were to lift the emergency trail closure that would certainly show some good intentions.
    This^^^
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    I also know Jennifer Burns believes it is cheaper to build a new trail from scratch rather than adopting a perfectly sustainable user built trail.

    What I don't know is whether its personal and whether the brushing rules have changed. An equestrian who attended the meetings to improve safety between equestrians and other users wanted better line of site on the trails, I don't think he ever got an answer if the FS would support that concept. Maybe Justin has some insight about that issue.
    Please name the 'perfectly sustainable' user built trails. Sustainable includes impacts on cultural resources, hydrology, neighborhoods, etc.

    The problem with equestrians is that trails are not always built to their standards. If there were more equestrians on the system trails, I imagine the FS would be more likely to enforce the travel management objectives for each trail with special orders. If I could do that, I would probably exclude equestrians from 75% of the existing trails and try to get them a few nicer long loops to make up for it.

    Brushing is a really difficult idea for trail workers to grasp in a desert environment. Too much and it completely changes the trail into a straight highway. It takes a good amount of thought to do it correctly and also make it seem like it has always been that way.

    The adopt a trail program is great but it in no way solves the problem with the 'legacy' system trails in Sedona. Light maintenance is not the issue. These trails need 'capital improvements' and 'heavy maintenance' to get to the point of not being a money pit. Too many old jeep roads turned into trails basically.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    Please name the 'perfectly sustainable' user built trails. Sustainable includes impacts on cultural resources, hydrology, neighborhoods, etc.

    The problem with equestrians is that trails are not always built to their standards. If there were more equestrians on the system trails, I imagine the FS would be more likely to enforce the travel management objectives for each trail with special orders. If I could do that, I would probably exclude equestrians from 75% of the existing trails and try to get them a few nicer long loops to make up for it.

    Brushing is a really difficult idea for trail workers to grasp in a desert environment. Too much and it completely changes the trail into a straight highway. It takes a good amount of thought to do it correctly and also make it seem like it has always been that way.

    The adopt a trail program is great but it in no way solves the problem with the 'legacy' system trails in Sedona. Light maintenance is not the issue. These trails need 'capital improvements' and 'heavy maintenance' to get to the point of not being a money pit. Too many old jeep roads turned into trails basically.
    No trail is perfect but I believe Special Ed fulfilled all of the requirements you list. The arch report showed no or little resource impact and I can't see how it affected nearby neighborhoods. Hydrology is a controversial subject in Sedona and is often invoked to indicate impacts when there is little evidence to support the claim (for example, siltation and turbidity in Oak Creek). IMO, there were no erosion issues associated with the tread and routing of Special Ed, including the switchbacks. It was closed for other reasons and is perhaps what Renegade means by "personal".

    Anaconda is another example of a user-built trail that was sustainably built. Renegade is mostly correct in the assertion that the user-built trails are more sustainable than the existing system trails but what gets lost is most of the "legacy" trails were also user-built (albeit back in the day when nobody knew what a sustainable trail was). Even Llama which was user-built in the late 90s has some bad, fallline sections. The FS in the Red Rock District did not build any trails in the 1990s that were not reroutes of existing social trails. Justin, correct me if I'm wrong but Huckabee is the lone exception. A little bit of Secret Trail perhaps and a dash of Broken Arrow. The southern end of Girdner. My point is that it was the locals that had the vision to create and place trails in places the FS would never have dreamed of or seen the need. More recently the FS has stepped up to the plate and turned the Soldier Pass area into a riding destination area when previously it was a spiderweb of social trails that nobody could navigate except those on the MtnBike Heaven sunday ride. The Yavapai Vista trails are good too. So, the FS is doing good things as well as doing some bad things like blaming all trail construction on mtn bikers when that is clearly not the case. As well as excluding bikers from certain trails but not other user groups. That is discrimination.

    Hopefully, the RTCA process will work. The locals and advocacy groups have had a seat at the table. The process is frustrating but the golden age of illegal trailbuilding is over. Hence the closure to only one user group to prove a point. The FS is going to get control of their backyard whether the locals like it or not. New trails are needed because from a mtn biker perspective the trails that are fun to ride are getting increasingly crowded. I don't bother with Chuckwagon anymore on a weekend. With the new trailhead there's an endless parade of hikers going to vultee arch. There will be more and more user conflicts. What is needed is more advocacy and locals continuing to work with the FS. Continued conflict is not going to succeed. It's a pity IMBA and SMBC have parted ways.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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