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  1. #1
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    Cosmic Ray and Traildoc Joint Venture on User Built Trail Custom Maps

    Today trialdoc maps and Cosmic Ray Fat Tire signed a joint venture to produce the best user built trail map that Sedona has seen to date. I have been working on this idea for months and today Cosmic Ray and I decided to make it a reality.

    I have all the user built trail Intel and Cosmic has the loyal customer base to make this project a GREAT business model. We have stiff competition from Bear Tooth but with a team effort Comic and I are going to kick butt. As Cosmic say "we just put whats there."

    The masses will definitely benefit from this map project. We both decided the Airport Loop supplement has to go and to soon be replaced with the Western Civ and Last Frontier section.

    Thanks Cosmic for making this happen.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cosmic Ray and Traildoc Joint Venture on User Built Trail Custom Maps-cosmic.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Stoked, any idea on when you hope to have your map out?

  3. #3
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    you're in good hands, td. ray and i have been friends for a mighty long time and, in my humble opinion, he's good people.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

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    I dunno, I heard he was a top part of the underground Fed sting operation to take down the user built trail building Sedona folks. It's all tied in with those pesky black drone helicopters and cameras strategically placed throughout the Coco NF. Be careful TD, be VERY careful.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Air Bud View Post
    Stoked, any idea on when you hope to have your map out?
    AB:

    Cosmic just had a new printing of his famous Arizona Fat Tire Mountain Guide, so it will be about 4 to 5 months before the new guide book comes out.

    TD

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler View Post
    you're in good hands, td. ray and i have been friends for a mighty long time and, in my humble opinion, he's good people.
    rc:

    I recently went on the secret handshake ride with your friend rockman and he informed me that you are not Ken from Absolute Bikes. Now I know why you refused to accept my previous thank-you for helping out my friend at the Sedona shop.

    Anyway as you may know Cosmic has purchased an island off the French coast and he will be selling his map business in the next 3 to 4 years to retire on the island. My hope is that with our new joint venture operation to bring more user built trails into a FS system status that will create at least a 30% increase in map sales, and with that increase, I will be able to purchase his business due to the increased revenue stream.

    We both also believe producing a map book showcasing trail running on Sedona user built trails will be a good addition to the mountain biking and hiking books he already produces.

    TD

  7. #7
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    Digital meets analog and it's all come full circle.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Digital meets analog and it's all come full circle.
    Yeah - the USFS wanted to throw Me & Yod in jail after Lost ******* was in the CR trail book back in ???? 1989-90'?

    Full circle indeed!

    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  9. #9
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    hey TD,, just curious,, have you actually incorporated your mapping /tour business? even if its more of a hobby instead of a profit-yielding venture. In case some **** does hit the fan and you end up getting sued,, a little LLC will go a long was in protecting your non-tourism-related assets.

  10. #10
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    What happened to the request that you not publish maps with non FS approved trails?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    What happened to the request that you not publish maps with non FS approved trails?
    P:

    The FS is giving Bear Tooth the user trail information to help hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers have a better user experience. Cosmic and I are taking a different approach, we are just making maps of what is out there to keep riders from getting lost.

    Thanks again for your concern.

    TD

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    hey TD,, just curious,, have you actually incorporated your mapping /tour business? even if its more of a hobby instead of a profit-yielding venture. In case some **** does hit the fan and you end up getting sued,, a little LLC will go a long was in protecting your non-tourism-related assets.
    LHM:

    Could you do a Google Search and come up with a scenario where Cosmic, Bear Tooth, Emmet Barks and I could be negligent and have legal liability? If you can't find anything on Google how about coming up with your own scenario.

    I plan on getting Cosmic to have me added to his Comprehensive General Liability policy as an additional insured. How would you determine the GL premium for map making? Is it based on revenue or number of maps? Do you know what the minimum premiums are for a $1,000,000 policy?

    Thanks for your input.

    TD

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    P:

    Cosmic and I are taking a different approach, we are just making maps of what is out there to keep riders from getting lost.

    TD
    Now THAT IS a different approach for CR for sure!
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    LHM:

    Could you do a Google Search and come up with a scenario where Cosmic, Bear Tooth, Emmet Barks and I could be negligent and have legal liability? If you can't find anything on Google how about coming up with your own scenario.

    I plan on getting Cosmic to have me added to his Comprehensive General Liability policy as an additional insured. How would you determine the GL premium for map making? Is it based on revenue or number of maps? Do you know what the minimum premiums are for a $1,000,000 policy?

    Thanks for your input.

    TD
    i'm just saying,, yes, while the chances may be slim that someone gets injured while you are taking them on a tour. however anyone can sue anyone for anything, and even defending yourself against a crap-shoot claim can be costly. a plaintiff's attorney could easily liken your tours to an unregulated parasailing operation. just remember that juries have awarded significant monetary damages for far stupider things

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    Now THAT IS a different approach for CR for sure!
    You gotta admit, this is funny.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    You gotta admit, this is funny.
    True enough. Like oil and vinegar. How can they mix?

  17. #17
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    "Bad user experiences will ride huffys in hell."

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    P:

    The FS is giving Bear Tooth the user trail information to help hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers have a better user experience. Cosmic and I are taking a different approach, we are just making maps of what is out there to keep riders from getting lost.

    Thanks again for your concern.

    TD
    While trying to hunt down the new Bear Tooth Sedona map for a recent trip, I gave them a call and spoke with Will who IS Bear Tooth maps. He claims that all the trails on his maps were GPSed by himself. I infer this to mean that he is not getting fed the data from the FS. While I like the BT map as a good overview, I'd like to see something with higher resolution like a 7.5-min or even 15-min topo scale.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    hey TD,, just curious,, have you actually incorporated your mapping /tour business? .
    This is just an assumption and anyone please correct me if I am wrong, but is it even possible to incorporate a bike tour hobby? I ask this because (if I am wrong TD feel free to correct me) his tours are free and he does not get paid or compensated for it, and if this is true then there is no business to incorporate nor is there any liability that he is assuming so there is no need for insurance. From what I gather, he picks up MTBR users who ask for trail intel and offers them to ride with him and after a few questions on thier experience and wants he puts together a ride that gives the visitor the best of what they are looking for in Sedona. Now this might not be very acceptable to the local land management but there is really nothing illegal or wrong with this just as long as he does not get paid to do it. You need a permit to perform tours on FS land for money, even non-profit and my understanding is those permits for biking are almost impossible to come by.

    Just my $.02

  20. #20
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    im not talking about incorporating for the sake of record keeping and taxes. im talking about for covering you ass. the fact that the tours are non-sanctioned, and without a permit, could possibly add fuel to the legal fire if something happens. by TD stepping up and declaring himself the leader of the whole thing, that's almost like saying "hey i'm the one you'll want to pouint the finger at"

    the FP is probably very hesitant to issue permits, because then it could also come back to them.
    there is the magical phrase that contractor services use in their advertisement to set customers at ease "licensed, bonded, and insured",, and ill bet nearly everyone of those FP permits issued is to an entity with those qualifications, so that any claim can take their fill from the insured pockets before digging into theirs.

  21. #21
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    Come on TD works for a Whopper Jr. He'll go for a ride with about anyone no holds barred. Skip the rest of the sermon.

    Everyone knows the tour companies are limited to the system trails. And of course it's no coincidence that there isn't a big tour company presence in Sedona.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl View Post
    While trying to hunt down the new Bear Tooth Sedona map for a recent trip, I gave them a call and spoke with Will who IS Bear Tooth maps. He claims that all the trails on his maps were GPSed by himself. I infer this to mean that he is not getting fed the data from the FS. While I like the BT map as a good overview, I'd like to see something with higher resolution like a 7.5-min or even 15-min topo scale.
    DG:

    Do me a favor and call Will back and share this picture with him. Ask him if he walked all the trails in the Soldier Wash area listed as FUTURE FOREST SERVICE TRAILS. When Jennifer Burns and I had a meeting about a month ago she said she sent that trail Intel to Bear Tooth, so his new addition wouldn't be out of date as soon as it was printed.

    Why he would have walked those trails and included them on his map before they had all been rerouted to get adopted seems unrealistic. In order for me to get those trails on my map which was updated after his 7th Edition I had to go in and walk through blue painted brush to get the correct alignments. I was helping the FS actually build the re-routes on Jordan and doing trail maintenance on Javelina which was a trail very few locals even knew about.

    Cosmic Ray said the 7th edition was a small run for some unknown reason to him. I can only speculate the reason is that the FS new it was going to have a bunch of new trails to add in like Hermit, Coconino, Yavapai Vista, Kabaib and Basalt. Those along with the addition of possibly Highline (the most popular user built trail in Sedona) as a system trail might have prompted Will to hold back on a big run of the 7th. edition.

    When Jennifer and I met she couldn't believe Will had added in Special Ed, Pyramid and Witch Doctor along with all the Hog Heaven trails. I didn't have the Bear Tooth map with me to show her those trails, but it will be interesting what the new BT 8th. Edition has on it. Obviously the more user built trails on the BT map will give hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers a better chance to navigate the comprehensive trail system.

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cosmic Ray and Traildoc Joint Venture on User Built Trail Custom Maps-bt-001.jpg  


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Come on TD works for a Whopper Jr. He'll go for a ride with about anyone no holds barred. Skip the rest of the sermon.

    Everyone knows the tour companies are limited to the system trails. And of course it's no coincidence that there isn't a big tour company presence in Sedona.
    rock:

    A very interesting thing happened today on the tour I was doing for the guys from San Diego. We rode Lizardhead to Chuck Wagon to Gunslinger to Gunsmoke to Mescal to Deadman's to Aerie, to Cockscomb to Christmas Wash to Dawa. During the ride we came across four equestrians on Chuck Wagon the lead rider had cut down an overhead branch that was impeding their user experience.

    After passing the riders we headed over to Gunslinger and you could see fresh manure on the trails on pretty regular intervals. Not only that they had cut down a lot of vegetation that was deterring them from a good user experience.

    You know me I am not a person who cares about the proper brushing of user built trails, but the type of brushing the equestrians were doing was TERRIBLE. They were cutting tree branches halfway through then breaking the branch to speed up the process. The result of the trimming were broken branches that in the long term would be susceptible to disease. Beside that it looks terrible if you understand the proper trimming of trees.

    A fellow rider friend of mine believes the FS has permitted equestrians to do tours out on Chuck Wagon now, but if that is so I don't understand why they would also be doing a tour on Gunslinger.

    Anyway there were a lot of new rocks kicked up and if there is a regular visit of horses out there the trail is going to get trashed.

    TD

  24. #24
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    Well, that sucks. But those trails are close to a large community of equestrians, So, no surprise. Looks like the the Red Rock District or the new IMBA sedona chapter has some outreach to do

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Well, that sucks. But those trails are close to a large community of equestrians, So, no surprise. Looks like the the Red Rock District or the new IMBA sedona chapter has some outreach to do
    rock:

    Not sure what outreach is, but I know if the equestrians are going to be out there on a regular basis they are going to have some maintenance issues for sure. I sent an email to the mountain bike liaison to the FS about how many new trail maintainers graduated from the recent IMBA Trail Building Workshop, and he hasn't responded yet, so I am not sure who might do those trail repair projects.

    I am curious if they will send someone out to properly remove those broken branches to protect the health of the affected trees? I am not sure if the IMBA Bike Patrol has members who are qualified to doctor the damaged trees.

    TD

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    Not sure what outreach is, but I know if the equestrians are going to be out there on a regular basis they are going to have some maintenance issues for sure. I sent an email to the mountain bike liaison to the FS about how many new trail maintainers graduated from the recent IMBA Trail Building Workshop, and he hasn't responded yet, so I am not sure who might do those trail repair projects.

    I am curious if they will send someone out to properly remove those broken branches to protect the health of the affected trees? I am not sure if the IMBA Bike Patrol has members who are qualified to doctor the damaged trees.

    TD
    My 2cents would be to photo-document the damage and move on.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    My 2cents would be to photo-document the damage and move on.
    rock:

    Good advice, I'll take my camera out the next time I ride out there. Do you think if I moved some of those huge piles of manure off the trail the FS would consider that to be unauthorized trail maintenance subject to disciplinary action or would it be looked at as a goodwill gesture?

    TD

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rc:

    I recently went on the secret handshake ride with your friend rockman and he informed me that you are not Ken from Absolute Bikes.
    glad we got that cleared up.

    indeed, i have found, many times over many years, that it often takes Rockman's word to establish the truth of a thing.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideNShine View Post
    This is just an assumption and anyone please correct me if I am wrong, but is it even possible to incorporate a bike tour hobby? I ask this because (if I am wrong TD feel free to correct me) his tours are free and he does not get paid or compensated for it, and if this is true then there is no business to incorporate nor is there any liability that he is assuming so there is no need for insurance. From what I gather, he picks up MTBR users who ask for trail intel and offers them to ride with him and after a few questions on thier experience and wants he puts together a ride that gives the visitor the best of what they are looking for in Sedona. Now this might not be very acceptable to the local land management but there is really nothing illegal or wrong with this just as long as he does not get paid to do it. You need a permit to perform tours on FS land for money, even non-profit and my understanding is those permits for biking are almost impossible to come by.

    Just my $.02
    Across the business board the line between a hobby and a business ( like, where you pay taxes, have insurance, ect) is when you accept money.
    No exceptions.

    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  30. #30
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    FYI. If you are going to charge to do anything on the national forest lands you need a special use permit. If you make a video that you intend to sell they can require a permit as well but they usually don't. If you aren't charging and your group size is less than some max number (that I don't know but I suspect is 75 because AES events are limited to 74) then I don't think you need a permit. You could of course still be cited for damaging resources etc. if you are off the system trails.

    I used to have a forest service special use permit for guiding on the national forest. It required an environmental impact assessment/statement, plan of operations, and liability insurance listing the forest service as insured. Even then you still have to get specific approval for your activities. At the time (mid 1990's) they (RRRD) would not issue permits for guiding hiking or mountain biking in the Sedona area but they told me they were accepting applications for more jeep tours!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gila monster View Post
    FYI. If you are going to charge to do anything on the national forest lands you need a special use permit. If you make a video that you intend to sell they can require a permit as well but they usually don't. If you aren't charging and your group size is less than some max number (that I don't know but I suspect is 75 because AES events are limited to 74) then I don't think you need a permit. You could of course still be cited for damaging resources etc. if you are off the system trails.

    I used to have a forest service special use permit for guiding on the national forest. It required an environmental impact assessment/statement, plan of operations, and liability insurance listing the forest service as insured. Even then you still have to get specific approval for your activities. At the time (mid 1990's) they (RRRD) would not issue permits for guiding hiking or mountain biking in the Sedona area but they told me they were accepting applications for more jeep tours!
    Do you know if the same rules apply to BLM lands?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    Do you know if the same rules apply to BLM lands?
    I would say yes. (in some form or another)


    Title 43: Public Lands: Interior
    PART 2930—PERMITS FOR RECREATION ON PUBLIC LANDS
    Subpart 2931—Permits for Recreation; General

    Browse Previous | Browse Next
    § 2931.2 What kinds of permits does BLM issue for recreation-related uses of public lands?

    The regulations in this part establish permit and fee systems for:

    (a) Special Recreation Permits for commercial use, organized group activities or events, competitive use, and for use of special areas; and

    (b) Recreation use permits for use of fee areas such as campgrounds and day use areas.
    b

  33. #33
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    I believe it is true for all federal lands. NPS lands are even more restrictive.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    Good advice, I'll take my camera out the next time I ride out there. Do you think if I moved some of those huge piles of manure off the trail the FS would consider that to be unauthorized trail maintenance subject to disciplinary action or would it be looked at as a goodwill gesture?

    TD
    Are you going to take pictures of horses pooping? Horse poop, no matter how well it breaks down or composts, introduces non-native and sometimes invasive plants and weeds to the area.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanyonTrailJunkie View Post
    Do you know if the same rules apply to BLM lands?
    BLM is extremely different than USFS. If youre talking about getting permits for BCT, the BLM office that is not far from the Deer Valley Airport is friendly and easy to work with. I've worked with them regarding instruction permits, which fall under the same category as tours, and was dumbfounded at how different the two agencies operate.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Are you going to take pictures of horses pooping? Horse poop, no matter how well it breaks down or composts, introduces non-native and sometimes invasive plants and weeds to the area.
    W:

    Since I am doing tours on those trails regularly I was thinking maybe I can start a new business of moving manure off the trail. Whenever I came across a BIG pile of manure I would stop and knock it off the trail to give hikers, trail runners and Mountain bikers a good user experience.

    I was trying to think of an appropriate charge for the manure re-location project. Does anyone have an idea as to how much the equestrian tour company might pay to have piles moved off the trail?

    TD

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    W:

    Since I am doing tours on those trails regularly I was thinking maybe I can start a new business of moving manure off the trail. Whenever I came across a BIG pile of manure I would stop and knock it off the trail to give hikers, trail runners and Mountain bikers a good user experience.

    I was trying to think of an appropriate charge for the manure re-location project. Does anyone have an idea as to how much the equestrian tour company might pay to have piles moved off the trail?

    TD
    Being as though you would be moving poo from a trail, which is technically trail maintenance, you would first have to get off of your "trail maintenance probation". (Do they drug test for that kind of probation?) Then you would have to locate and photograph the poo and report to the USFS exactly where said poo is, and map out where the poo will be relocated to. Of course, now an archeologist and a hydrologist have to hike out on the trail to make sure the poo will not have a chance of being washed into a creek, arroyo, or archeology site. Once the project is approved by the archeologist, hydrologist, and the USFS you'll be able to go move the poo.

    Having said all this, I think it will cost:
    Mapping- $150 per pile
    Archeologist- $7500 per pile
    Hydrologist- $8000 per pile
    You being occupied 24/7 by cleaning horse sh*t off the trail- PRICELESS
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  38. #38
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    Sedona

    TD ,Cosmic
    Congrads keep up the great job, I know all about Outlaw trail building and have loved it for the last 8 years.
    Cheers to the new adventure.
    K-Trail

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    ... and if we just ... Holy Hill By-Pass

    Just wanted to let everyone know that the Holy Hill By-Pass trail is complete and ready for fun it is at the bottom of the hill from Vortex, be sure and get your cowbell rung in the Cheers
    K Trail

  40. #40
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    those prices are reasonable unless they are an employee of GSA, then triple those rates



    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Being as though you would be moving poo from a trail, which is technically trail maintenance, you would first have to get off of your "trail maintenance probation". (Do they drug test for that kind of probation?) Then you would have to locate and photograph the poo and report to the USFS exactly where said poo is, and map out where the poo will be relocated to. Of course, now an archeologist and a hydrologist have to hike out on the trail to make sure the poo will not have a chance of being washed into a creek, arroyo, or archeology site. Once the project is approved by the archeologist, hydrologist, and the USFS you'll be able to go move the poo.

    Having said all this, I think it will cost:
    Mapping- $150 per pile
    Archeologist- $7500 per pile
    Hydrologist- $8000 per pile
    You being occupied 24/7 by cleaning horse sh*t off the trail- PRICELESS

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