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  1. #1
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    Changing the rules...

    So got a newer idea rollin around in my head in reguards to who yields to who. The current system of Bikes yield to hikers and horses, hikers yield to horses could use a revisit in my opinion, and that of several of my riding companions. The new system i am going to propose is based on the laws of physics and sheer size.

    First. everyone yields to horses. They are the largest trail user in sheer size. Starteling them can injure both the rider and the conflicting trail user.
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill. Moreover the Downhill rider has already climbed to the top and should not have his or her reward of a sweet DH run interrupted. This should not apply to shuttle traffic as they are usually on uni-directional trails.
    Third, hikers should yield to all of the above as it is much easier for a hiker to step off the trail to allow passing traffic than all of the above.
    discuss...
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    So got a newer idea rollin around in my head in reguards to who yields to who. The current system of Bikes yield to hikers and horses, hikers yield to horses could use a revisit in my opinion, and that of several of my riding companions. The new system i am going to propose is based on the laws of physics and sheer size.

    First. everyone yields to horses. They are the largest trail user in sheer size. Starteling them can injure both the rider and the conflicting trail user.
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill. Moreover the Downhill rider has already climbed to the top and should not have his or her reward of a sweet DH run interrupted. This should not apply to shuttle traffic as they are usually on uni-directional trails.
    Third, hikers should yield to all of the above as it is much easier for a hiker to step off the trail to allow passing traffic than all of the above.
    discuss...
    Works for me.
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  3. #3
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    Sounds good!
    Only thing better in addition, would be that horses have their own designated trails, no bikes, no hikers. This eliminates the horse issue from mtn. bikers/hikers & makes everyone safer. Now the challenge is how to get this implemented, designated horse trails constructed & trail users educated?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    So got a newer idea rollin around in my head in reguards to who yields to who. The current system of Bikes yield to hikers and horses, hikers yield to horses could use a revisit in my opinion, and that of several of my riding companions. The new system i am going to propose is based on the laws of physics and sheer size.

    First. everyone yields to horses. They are the largest trail user in sheer size. Starteling them can injure both the rider and the conflicting trail user.
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill. Moreover the Downhill rider has already climbed to the top and should not have his or her reward of a sweet DH run interrupted. This should not apply to shuttle traffic as they are usually on uni-directional trails.
    Third, hikers should yield to all of the above as it is much easier for a hiker to step off the trail to allow passing traffic than all of the above.
    discuss...
    I go with common sense above all, which 99.9% of the time works out to pretty much exactly what you said.

  5. #5
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    Seems like how it works anyway, so maybe most people have figured this out.

    F'rinstance, I have only met a handful of downhill MTB traffic that understands they are supposed to yield to the uphill traffic. While I expect MTBers to know and follow the rules of engagement, usually it doesn't bother me, much. Now and then it is a real PITA. I enjoy descending too and understand how having to stop during a descent can be an irritant, but getting going downhill after a stop is almost always trvial in comparison to resuming a climb, for me at least. Sometimes, depending upon the climb, stopping precludes pedaling again without some HAB. Other times I use the stop as an excuse to catch my breath.

    As to horses, I am with you. I am not about to put the horse, the rider, me, or anyone else at risk because the horse or its rider freaks out over an encounter with a hiker, biker or trail obstacle, no matter who is right or wrong. I generally stop and try to get clear out of the way to minimize me being in the wrong place if horse or rider does something random.

    What hikers? Seriously, most hikers I encounter defer to the cyclist as they seem to understand that cycling the gnarlier trails may be harder than walking them. Maybe they are just taking pity in my particular case. I'm okay with that. The few that are grumpy about sharing, whatever, gives me something to mutter about as I flail about along the trail. I know that others have had different and less positive experiences, now and then, which is too bad, because we have such great trail resources here in the valley. Can't we all just get a bong? Maybe that's the problem, dunno.

    I think the answer is to dress up like a horse, ride the biggest bike you can, and always point downhill.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill.
    Spot on, why are bikes the only wheeled vehicles where downhill yields to uphill? Wait, cars, trucks and Jeeps aren't wheeled vehicles, are they? Nope, spot on!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    I go with common sense above all, which 99.9% of the time works out to pretty much exactly what you said.
    +1
    I know the rules to yeilding but never really followed it. I have yeilded to uphill bikers/ hikers, and they have yeilded for me... it really all depending on what was easier for each person.

    The only problem I ever had was a couple bikers on National trail trying to go up... saw me, put their head down and kept chugging along in the middle of the trail as fast as they could. I practically had to ride off the trail, ride into a rocky wash just to get out of their way in time.

    They chimed in as they went by "Downhillers yeild to uphillers".... asshat

  8. #8
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    Typical downhiller mentality…me me me. If you have to skid in order to stop, you are going way to fast on a multiuse trail and not riding in control. On narrow trails, hikers can’t always just step off the trail safely to get out of the way so you can come flying by without you slowing down. It is not easier for uphill riders to get out of the way especially on steep narrow trails. It’s a lot harder to get going again. Downhill riders just need to stop or slow down and pass and let go of the brakes and your off and rolling. If you want uninterrupted flow, go to a bike park.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    So got a newer idea rollin around in my head in reguards to who yields to who. The current system of Bikes yield to hikers and horses, hikers yield to horses could use a revisit in my opinion, and that of several of my riding companions. The new system i am going to propose is based on the laws of physics and sheer size.

    First. everyone yields to horses. They are the largest trail user in sheer size. Starteling them can injure both the rider and the conflicting trail user.
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill. Moreover the Downhill rider has already climbed to the top and should not have his or her reward of a sweet DH run interrupted. This should not apply to shuttle traffic as they are usually on uni-directional trails.
    Third, hikers should yield to all of the above as it is much easier for a hiker to step off the trail to allow passing traffic than all of the above.
    discuss...

  9. #9
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    I don't have a big problem with the way the rules are, including or not including horses on trails is a safety issue IMO, but a different issue in terms of who yields, since the rider can not control the unpredictable animal, it kind of has to be the way it is.

    I find downhills where there are few people or that are specifically for downhill riding, and that's where I "let it rip". Otherwise, I find that a few downhill riders are usually the ones that do not want to yield. How many people plan to stop and pull over when on a downhill? If someone else pulls off way ahead, great, if not, I plan to do it. As much as I love downhills, I agree with Epicrider that there are rules there for a purpose. If your local trail is too busy/crowded that you can't do an "unbroken" run, it's probably not a good place for all-out downhill in the first place.
    Last edited by Jayem; 06-23-2011 at 01:16 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubo View Post
    +1
    I know the rules to yeilding but never really followed it. I have yeilded to uphill bikers/ hikers, and they have yeilded for me... it really all depending on what was easier for each person.

    The only problem I ever had was a couple bikers on National trail trying to go up... saw me, put their head down and kept chugging along in the middle of the trail as fast as they could. I practically had to ride off the trail, ride into a rocky wash just to get out of their way in time.

    They chimed in as they went by "Downhillers yeild to uphillers".... asshat

    Not sure why they were asshasts when they were in the right and you were in the wrong. We can disagree with the rules, but the social contract would indicate that it is more than a little questionable to ***** at or about people who follow them especially when the *****er does not.

  11. #11
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    Anything that *****S all over a trail should not be on the top of the "right of way" list.

  12. #12
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    What did Traildoc say about this?
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  13. #13
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    Good discussion. My take from the hiker POV is that it would be a bummer, even though I can step off the trail rather quickly, to encounter a gaggle of DH'rs trying to set a Super D record on say a trail like Schultz. Riders whizzing by at 30mph would, as Traildoc would say: detract from the hiker experience. Or say a group or family out hiking. You'd have to keep your kids on a leash. Or what about Walter who I haven't seen lately but he use to frequent Shultz with his oxygen tank to walk his dogs. He can't hear you coming.

    Anyhoo, I think the existing system works fine. I agree with Epicrider and Jayem. If you want to get your game on on a multi-use trail do it on a weekday. I rarely if ever get out of the way when climbing a trail. I'm not really looking up because I'm sucking air into my lungs and if the wind is blowing I can't hear anything either.
    Last edited by rockman; 06-23-2011 at 01:30 PM.

  14. #14
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertCrawler View Post
    Not sure why they were asshasts when they were in the right and you were in the wrong. We can disagree with the rules, but the social contract would indicate that it is more than a little questionable to ***** at or about people who follow them especially when the *****er does not.
    Maybe it is time to change this " Social Contract" I hereby emplore all trail users in the Northland to consider this new ammendment.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Good discussion. My take from the hiker POV is that it would be a bummer, even though I can step off the trail rather quickly, to have to encounter a gaggle of DH'rs trying to set a Super D record on say a trail like Schultz. Riders whizzing by at 30mph. As Traildoc would say: detracting from the hiker experience. Or say a group or family out hiking. You'd have to keep your kids on a leash. Or what about Walter who I have seen lately but use to frequent Shultz with his oxygen tank to walk his dogs. He can't hear you coming.

    Anyhoo, I think the existing system works fine. I agree with Epicrider and Jayem. If you want to get your game on on a multi-use trail do it on a weekday. I rarely if ever get out of the way when climbing a trail. I'm not really looking up because I'm sucking air into my lungs and if the wind is blowing I can't hear anything either.
    I do think that common sense should be exercised tho, downhill bikes on Shultz are completely out of place, and people in Full DH mode should be on single use trails that are uni-directional. I was refering mostly to All mountain riding.
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  16. #16
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    What about a small child on a pony? A big dude with full gear on a DH bike could very well out weigh a kid on a pony. What do the laws of physics and sheer size argument do with that one?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    I do think that common sense should be exercised tho, downhill bikes on Shultz are completely out of place, and people in Full DH mode should be on single use trails that are uni-directional. I was refering mostly to All mountain riding.
    Roger, I'm just playing devil's adocate. I think you have to pick and choose your trail wisely and you can have the best of both worlds. I don't even think of descending Schultz or Sunset at 11am on a Saturday. The endless encounters with hikers, bikers, and even horses just kills the flow. It would still kill the flow if 100% of them got out of my way.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill. Moreover the Downhill rider has already climbed to the top and should not have his or her reward of a sweet DH run interrupted. This should not apply to shuttle traffic as they are usually on uni-directional trails.
    discuss...
    I respectfully disagree. It is not always easy to just "move out of the way" and not to mention it is more difficult to get started again especially on technical climbs. As an All Mountain rider who climbs and descends I feel climbing is more physically demanding and a particular line is much more critical in the uphill direction as there isnt always a lot of momentum to spare.
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  19. #19
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    If I am walking my bike down the hill, all I need to yield to are horses and uphill hikers. Everybody pedaling and all hikers heading down need to yield to me.

    I just improved my trail ranking 2 spots.


    See that, I'm a game changer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by u2metoo View Post
    If I am walking my bike down the hill, all I need to yield to are horses and uphill hikers. Everybody pedaling and all hikers heading down need to yield to me.

    I just improved my trail ranking 2 spots.


    See that, I'm a game changer...
    If you are walking your bike you must yield to yourself so just stand there and dont move.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DustyBones View Post

    Sounds good!
    Only thing better in addition, would be that horses have their own designated trails, no bikes, no hikers. This eliminates the horse issue from mtn. bikers/hikers & makes everyone safer. Now the challenge is how to get this implemented, designated horse trails constructed & trail users educated?
    Know what'd be even betterer? We make the equestrians breed winged horses to ride on double rainbow sky trails! Now the challenge is nailing down Yosemite Bear to help out with this project.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertCrawler View Post
    Not sure why they were asshasts when they were in the right and you were in the wrong. We can disagree with the rules, but the social contract would indicate that it is more than a little questionable to ***** at or about people who follow them especially when the *****er does not.
    This is why
    whether you're going uphill or downhill, only an asshat would blindly chug along assuming the oncomer knows the "rules".

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Typical downhiller mentality…me me me. .
    I don’t think it was the intent of the OP to pit down hillers only against everybody else. This seems to be a genuine discussion about your typical shared trail that has hills and yielding. So I’m not sure why you would give feedback about “typical down hillers” implying selfishness when this is clearly not the case here. That’s bound to get people fired up, arguing, and hating each other. Not good for the sport.

    That said I’ve never really seen this as a hardcore problem. Here in Prescott, there are lots of hills. We get plenty of experience with this, especially on summer weekends. I tend to lean towards that the uphill riders should take the “high road” here (no pun intended). Why? Because I think it comes down to a safety issue. What is the safest way to go about it? It all comes down to who can hear and see who the soonest to avoid collision.
    1. It’s safer for the uphill rider who has more time and more audibles to yield to avoid potential collisions. The uphill rider typically (I understand not always) can hear and/or see the downhill rider coming sooner than the downhill rider can hear and/or see the uphill rider coming. When you’re going downhill, I’m talking safe and in control speeds here, you got much more wind noise, brake noise, tire noise, elevated voices (whooping and hollering), and the speed of approaching obstacles. All these things make it more difficult to hear and see those coming uphill. Reverse all that uphill now: much less wind, tire, brake noise (if any) with average voice levels (if any with all that huffing and puffing). Thus making it safer for the uphill rider to move out of the way quicker with less likelihood of collision. I understand and know that with some trail sections it isn’t possible to just step aside. But isn’t that the exception? Depends on where you ride I suppose. Most riders have the strength and skill to get right back to pedaling again, especially after a short breather. If you don’t, then it’s good practice. I personally would rather take a few short stops on the way up yielding to down hillers than to stop at all on the way down. JMO. But my guess all this comes down to personal opinion. .

    2. Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of other trail user’s who were nasty while stepping aside for us coming downhill when they were going up. Typically, everybody appreciates the rest. Most recreational riders are grateful for the small breather from the uphill grind when the downhill riders come down. And it’s human nature (I’d like to think) to do nice things. Most hikers and bikers are happy to move aside when they’re grinding uphill.

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  24. #24
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    What Douger-1 said. Downhillers should generally yield to somebody grinding up the hill, especially as the trail gets steeper and more technical.

    As far as horses, I agree that you should always defer to them. My only problem has been when you come up behind them and they are moving much more slowly on the trail. I think they should allow you to pass, but I agree that the mountain biker (or runner/hiker) should take a lot of caution to make sure that he announces himself and passes carefully (after the horses are prepared for you to pass).

  25. #25
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    Because I think it comes down to a safety issue. What is the safest way to go about it? It all comes down to who can hear and see who the soonest to avoid collision.
    If you put safety first, then the person traveling faster should yield. "Safety" would suggest that all passes be made at slow speeds in order to minimize the casualties from possible collisions. If you give downhill traffic the right of way, then you are increasing the possibilities of high speed collisions and putting the responsibility on the slower party in general. That is crazy.

    Control your bike. If you cannot see, slow down. Reduce the possibility of "surprise" collisions or conflicts.

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  26. #26
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    DashRipRock does make some good points about the downhill vs. uphill issue. I would still stick with my general rule, but there are a lot of exceptions to the rules that are just based on common sense. There are certainly times when I have been going up a hill and it just made sense (and it was polite) to let the downhiller, or the hiker, pass. Other times, it didn't (and the other person agreed). I think one of the problems is when there are some people who are really married to the "rules" and insist on enforcing them, whether or not it makes sense. Or you have the guys who hate the "rules" and insist on breaking them. If both parties are looking out for the general safety of other trail users, the worst that you might have are two people who stopped on the trail and are staring at each other.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    what about a small child on a pony firing off fireworks? A big dude with full gear on a dh bike could very well out weigh a kid on a pony. What do the laws of physics and sheer size argument do with that one?
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  28. #28
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    I don’t think it was the intent of the OP to pit down hillers only against everybody else. This seems to be a genuine discussion about your typical shared trail that has hills and yielding. So I’m not sure why you would give feedback about “typical down hillers” implying selfishness when this is clearly not the case here. That’s bound to get people fired up, arguing, and hating each other. Not good for the sport.

    That said I’ve never really seen this as a hardcore problem. Here in Prescott, there are lots of hills. We get plenty of experience with this, especially on summer weekends. I tend to lean towards that the uphill riders should take the “high road” here (no pun intended). Why? Because I think it comes down to a safety issue. What is the safest way to go about it? It all comes down to who can hear and see who the soonest to avoid collision.
    1. It’s safer for the uphill rider who has more time and more audibles to yield to avoid potential collisions. The uphill rider typically (I understand not always) can hear and/or see the downhill rider coming sooner than the downhill rider can hear and/or see the uphill rider coming. When you’re going downhill, I’m talking safe and in control speeds here, you got much more wind noise, brake noise, tire noise, elevated voices (whooping and hollering), and the speed of approaching obstacles. All these things make it more difficult to hear and see those coming uphill. Reverse all that uphill now: much less wind, tire, brake noise (if any) with average voice levels (if any with all that huffing and puffing). Thus making it safer for the uphill rider to move out of the way quicker with less likelihood of collision. I understand and know that with some trail sections it isn’t possible to just step aside. But isn’t that the exception? Depends on where you ride I suppose. Most riders have the strength and skill to get right back to pedaling again, especially after a short breather. If you don’t, then it’s good practice. I personally would rather take a few short stops on the way up yielding to down hillers than to stop at all on the way down. JMO. But my guess all this comes down to personal opinion. .

    2. Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of other trail user’s who were nasty while stepping aside for us coming downhill when they were going up. Typically, everybody appreciates the rest. Most recreational riders are grateful for the small breather from the uphill grind when the downhill riders come down. And it’s human nature (I’d like to think) to do nice things. Most hikers and bikers are happy to move aside when they’re grinding uphill.

    My two Abe Lincoln’s.

    Dash

    This should be a sticky.

  30. #30
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    The rules are the rules. They suck in my opinion and I would welcome changes as well as copiuos uni directional dh specific trails, but this is a wish I doubt will be granted any time soon. Awareness is the key. I get a ton of hikers and mtbers yielding to the dh rider(not dh in the pure sense, speaking in terms of direction) where I ride(maybe they appreciate the stoke of the dh more than the pain of the uh). I am aware enough to see what they are doing and plan accordingly. When I see hikers with the dear in the headlights look, I stop. When I see them moving off the trail, that tells me "come on through" and they are thanked in kind.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    1. It’s safer for the uphill rider who has more time and more audibles to yield to avoid potential collisions. The uphill rider typically (I understand not always) can hear and/or see the downhill rider coming sooner than the downhill rider can hear and/or see the uphill rider coming. When you’re going downhill, I’m talking safe and in control speeds here, you got much more wind noise, brake noise, tire noise, elevated voices (whooping and hollering), and the speed of approaching obstacles. All these things make it more difficult to hear and see those coming uphill. Reverse all that uphill now: much less wind, tire, brake noise (if any) with average voice levels (if any with all that huffing and puffing). Thus making it safer for the uphill rider to move out of the way quicker with less likelihood of collision. I understand and know that with some trail sections it isn’t possible to just step aside. But isn’t that the exception? Depends on where you ride I suppose. Most riders have the strength and skill to get right back to pedaling again, especially after a short breather. If you don’t, then it’s good practice. I personally would rather take a few short stops on the way up yielding to down hillers than to stop at all on the way down. JMO. But my guess all this comes down to personal opinion. .

    Dash
    Again I respectfully disagree. I realize that you personally have no issues with taking a few short breathers, which is fine, but there are others who pride themselves on conquering a tough technical climb without stopping. To your point one could also argue that the faster you go the farther ahead you look so the downhill riders should be aware of the uphill riders much sooner.

    To follow up on an earlier point I made, in my experience it is much easier to change your line going downhill than up. Typically there is a single groove that is used when climbing. It follows the path with the least amount of loose gravel and works its way up in a path of least resistance. If Im coming down its much easier for me to yield or move over into the loose stuff and drop off a couple steps than for the guy climbing to pull out of the groove.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  32. #32
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    This I'd all way too confusing.Too many words.
    I say first user to "call" the trail when happening upon another user,gets the right of way,period.

    Horses get an advantage because of height.
    DHers get an advantage cuz they usually look further down the trail.
    XCers get an advantage cuz they ride in couples alot(like roadies)
    Hikers get an advantage cuz they're always looking for someone to ***** at.
    codafurnituredesign.com

  33. #33
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    Then,if there's a dispute,or you both call it at the same time........
    Rock,paper,scissors.
    codafurnituredesign.com

  34. #34
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    There are trails that are already this way. The whole desert trails system on the north side of Gallop possibly the trails SE of town also can't remember for sure.

    There are trails that are closed to horses. Bootleg as I recall, not sure what it's like since the fire but there was a loop south of Big Lake, AZ, no horses at Fantasy Island in Tucson.

    99% of the time hikers are already off of the trail before we see them. If you slow down and play nice most are super friendly and don't mind yielding.

    In my experience with horse riders it's about 50-50 but usually they say it's easy for them to get off of the trail, unless it's steep side slope. As long as you are talking as you go past a horse so it knows you are a person, and not some crazy wheeled beasty it's generally all good.

    That leaves 1% of the hikers out there that feel the need to go by the letter of the law (rule, guide line what ever). Seems like one percent of the time is not that big of a deal why not just let that one percent have at it.

    So that only leaves the bike on bike interaction. I have one riding partner who has never finished and extended climb without stopping ever. He is more then will to take a break any chance he gets so he is happy to yield to down hill traffic. If I am on a climb that I know I can clean I would much rather not put a foot down. On the down hill side it's so easy to stop and start again I really don't care if I have to stop on the down hill.

    When two hikers meet in the mountains they seem to yield to up hill traffic. I have had hikers yield to me on this concept. Even if I offer to stop they will say no up hill has the right of way. It only makes sense that bike traffic the newer users follow the same concept. If the trail is super gnarly there will be very few up hill riders if they are still on the bike and clean climbing they should have the right of way. The rider who knows he will be walking soon will most likely be willing to yield.

    I see no problem with things the way they are now. It seems like 99% of the time riders won't have to stop but should always slow down for hikers. And it seems like every one from both sides agrees that we need to stop and give horses all of the space they need.

    And there are some places that do require horses to wear diapers pretty sure Garden of the Gods city park in Colorado Springs at least makes the outfitter do this. Not that you can ride a bike there anyway.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    So got a newer idea rollin around in my head in reguards to who yields to who. The current system of Bikes yield to hikers and horses, hikers yield to horses could use a revisit in my opinion, and that of several of my riding companions. The new system i am going to propose is based on the laws of physics and sheer size.

    First. everyone yields to horses. They are the largest trail user in sheer size. Starteling them can injure both the rider and the conflicting trail user.
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic as it is much easier for an uphill rider to move out of the way. This will also result in less trail erosion due to Downhill traffic not having to skid to stop downhill progress and move over, furthermore bicycles are the only wheeled vehicle where downhill traffic yields to uphill. Moreover the Downhill rider has already climbed to the top and should not have his or her reward of a sweet DH run interrupted. This should not apply to shuttle traffic as they are usually on uni-directional trails.
    Third, hikers should yield to all of the above as it is much easier for a hiker to step off the trail to allow passing traffic than all of the above.
    discuss...
    I just got to thinking I may actually like your new idea. If we are going to base it on the law of physics and sheer size than after horses comes us clydesdales right? Since Im over 200lbs its harder for me to stop and if I run into one of you skinny buck fifty guys you will be in a world of hurt. I think us clydesdales end up with the highest weight to speed ratio out there. Everyone yield to us !!! Yes yes I like this.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  36. #36
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    The problem with the OPs proposal is that it is too wordy. It is hard enough getting people to understand the current trail etiquette, and that can be explained in 2 sentences. Try explaining this new set of rules to some newb. There would be pandemonium everywhere. But at least the equestrians would be okay, cause nothing changed for them.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    This is why
    whether you're going uphill or downhill, only an asshat would blindly chug along assuming the oncomer knows the "rules".
    Fair enough, and I considered that, just didn't correct myself.

    Someone already said it - common sense. There's an inherent issue with that though, because the term seems to be an oxymoron.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Typical downhiller mentality…me me me. If you have to skid in order to stop, you are going way to fast on a multiuse trail and not riding in control.
    Its people with epicriders mentality that ruin others users day. People that have the "this person rides this type bike/looks like this/rides these trails and therefor I should judge them as this" are bad for trails. You should abandon your narrow-minded views, it would do you some good.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    I don’t think it was the intent of the OP to pit down hillers only against everybody else. This seems to be a genuine discussion about your typical shared trail that has hills and yielding. So I’m not sure why you would give feedback about “typical down hillers” implying selfishness when this is clearly not the case here. That’s bound to get people fired up, arguing, and hating each other. Not good for the sport.

    That said I’ve never really seen this as a hardcore problem. Here in Prescott, there are lots of hills. We get plenty of experience with this, especially on summer weekends. I tend to lean towards that the uphill riders should take the “high road” here (no pun intended). Why? Because I think it comes down to a safety issue. What is the safest way to go about it? It all comes down to who can hear and see who the soonest to avoid collision.
    1. It’s safer for the uphill rider who has more time and more audibles to yield to avoid potential collisions. The uphill rider typically (I understand not always) can hear and/or see the downhill rider coming sooner than the downhill rider can hear and/or see the uphill rider coming. When you’re going downhill, I’m talking safe and in control speeds here, you got much more wind noise, brake noise, tire noise, elevated voices (whooping and hollering), and the speed of approaching obstacles. All these things make it more difficult to hear and see those coming uphill. Reverse all that uphill now: much less wind, tire, brake noise (if any) with average voice levels (if any with all that huffing and puffing). Thus making it safer for the uphill rider to move out of the way quicker with less likelihood of collision. I understand and know that with some trail sections it isn’t possible to just step aside. But isn’t that the exception? Depends on where you ride I suppose. Most riders have the strength and skill to get right back to pedaling again, especially after a short breather. If you don’t, then it’s good practice. I personally would rather take a few short stops on the way up yielding to down hillers than to stop at all on the way down. JMO. But my guess all this comes down to personal opinion. .

    2. Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of other trail user’s who were nasty while stepping aside for us coming downhill when they were going up. Typically, everybody appreciates the rest. Most recreational riders are grateful for the small breather from the uphill grind when the downhill riders come down. And it’s human nature (I’d like to think) to do nice things. Most hikers and bikers are happy to move aside when they’re grinding uphill.

    My two Abe Lincoln’s.

    Dash
    I can appreciate your diplomatic approach here, but all that stuff about safety, wind noise, whooping and brake/tire noise seems a little hog-washy to me. If a rider is going so fast that they can't hear or see enough they should make sure that no one is in the path before they open it up. It's not that hard to do that.The whole reason that DH yeilds to UH riding and hiking is based on safety. People going fast DH are more likely to hurt people going slow UH. This rule is not in place to penalize or make DH riders feel bad. We all know that UH hikers and riders can be dumb and unpredictable. If they jump the wrong way of freeze in the wrong spot they might get clobbered no matter how smart the DH rider is. The rule is in place to keep people from getting hurt. The parks simply cannot afford to deal with people getting hurt, and it is very likely that changing a very old common knowledge rule for the benefit of MTBers will lead to people getting hurt. It's not about fault or right or wrong it's about avoiding injuries in the parks.

    I'm also going to have to disagee with point 2 as well. I'm not going to let it ruin my day when a DH rider fails to yield when I'm climbing, and will generally smile and say howdy regardless, but to suggest that most UH riders and hikers are "happy" to move to the side so you can blaze past is a HUGE stretch of the imagination. Grinding up hill for many runners, hikers, and bikers is the whole point. They want to get their burn on just like we want to get out flow on. Just because they smile and nod rather than giving you the finger doesn't mean they're happy to move out of your way. And the whole "being nice is human nature" rationalization... Are you really saying that it is more "nice" for a UH hiker/biker to move to the side than it is for a DH rider/hiker to yield? How did you come to that conclusion?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    First. everyone yields to horses. They are the largest trail user in sheer size. Starteling them can injure both the rider and the conflicting trail user.
    Sounds good so far...

    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Second. Downhill MTB traffic should have the right of way over uphill traffic [load of complete dog excement deleted due to the complete stupidity of said excrement]
    Sounds like a complete load of crap written from the point of view of someone who believes they own the MULTIUSE trail they are on.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Third, hikers should yield to all of the above as it is much easier for a hiker to step off the trail to allow passing traffic than all of the above.
    Now you're back on track. Luckily, I'd say 80% of all hikers understand this and follow this rule even though it's not the real rule.

    And, luckily, I haven't run into any bands of DHing doooshbags that think everyone on a multiuse trail should get out of their way.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Typical downhiller mentality…me me me. If you have to skid in order to stop, you are going way to fast on a multiuse trail and not riding in control. On narrow trails, hikers can’t always just step off the trail safely to get out of the way so you can come flying by without you slowing down. It is not easier for uphill riders to get out of the way especially on steep narrow trails. It’s a lot harder to get going again. Downhill riders just need to stop or slow down and pass and let go of the brakes and your off and rolling. If you want uninterrupted flow, go to a bike park.
    Pretty sure that you missed the point entirely, I am not surprised. You obviously know little about Downhilling, and the mentality that goes with it. My point was in reference to Multi use trails, for instance the ones on your coveted little map. DH trails are single use, and uni directional so these proposed changes really do not apply. I was more focused on all mountain riding and the question refers to the inconsistancies between bicycles and every other form of wheeled recreation. Take that how you will, seems like you are the one with the typical skinny tire mentality of my point is the only one that matters, therefore I will not listen to anyone else. Thank you for your time...
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    I was more focused on all mountain riding and the question refers to the inconsistancies between bicycles and every other form of wheeled recreation.
    You keep saying this yet it's not true. Off Roaders also go by downhill yields to uphill.

    Hiking etiquette also uses the same rule.

    BTW, where are these DH only trails that everyone usually shuttles? Seems the trails most commonly discussed for shuttling are normal multi-use and public trails.

  43. #43
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    I just wish it could all be reduced to one simple rule: slower yields to faster, and that's all anybody needs to obey.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertCrawler View Post
    Not sure why they were asshasts when they were in the right and you were in the wrong. We can disagree with the rules, but the social contract would indicate that it is more than a little questionable to ***** at or about people who follow them especially when the *****er does not.
    Slowing down would have been nice. Maybe moving to the side of the trail where I could have room to stop and let him pass would be another option.

    I guess I'll just stop in the middle of the trail next time... then we'll see who *****es

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    I just wish it could all be reduced to one simple rule: slower yields to faster, and that's all anybody needs to obey.
    I wish that were the case on our highways but Im not so sure thats the best practice on multi-use trails.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    I just wish it could all be reduced to one simple rule: slower yields to faster, and that's all anybody needs to obey.
    Amen to that! I've always wondered (coming from an off road motorcycle racing background), why do so many mountain bikers have difficulty realizing that if someone catches up to you, they are going faster than you and it would be a good idea to let them by. I'm not talking about the newbies that don't have the control to focus on anything but what's directly ahead. I mean the guys/girls that will keep on the main line regardless of the fact you are practically rubbing their rear tire. So is pulling off the line for the faster riders not done in mountain bike racing, or has it just not made it's way to the trails?
    a real Dirkbag!

  47. #47
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    Moving over for a faster rider behind you is just common courtesy which everyone should strive to do more of. We are talking about the interaction of horses vs bikes vs hikers and bikes in uh vs dh. Like others have said if the goal is safety in a multi-use environment then faster should yield. IMHO
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  48. #48
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    I suppose it was just fresh in my mind because this morning I got stuck behind a guy who also didn't move out of the main line for the guy coming down hill at us. I try to look as far ahead and behind as possible and move over whenever I see oncoming/overtaking traffic. But I also understand you can't always do that, so I think safety would dictate dh yield to uh.
    a real Dirkbag!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonRastafari View Post
    I suppose it was just fresh in my mind because this morning I got stuck behind a guy who also didn't move out of the main line for the guy coming down hill at us. I try to look as far ahead and behind as possible and move over whenever I see oncoming/overtaking traffic. But I also understand you can't always do that, so I think safety would dictate dh yield to uh.
    1) were you sure he heard you and the other rider, and 2) did he know you wanted to pass. Sometimes, a rider will quickly come from behind me, and I'll eihter be in some kind of daze and not hear them or whatever. Also, while it pisses me off, every once and a while a biker might come up behind me and then just sit there, I'm assuming to rest of draft.

    While slower riders should let faster rides pass, faster riders really should let the slower rider know they want to pass, and what side they are going to pass one (i.e., Going to pass you on the left when you get a chance).
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  50. #50
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    I go with the common sense approach. If someone looks like they are doing what they are doing and doing it well, why trump 'em.

    If you're a noob, and someone looks like they ride, get out of the way.
    If you're a veteran, and you're not in a hurry, be nice and let the others have the path.

    Too many rules and frankly too many buttheads that just don't give a damn to follow them.

    My 2 cents.

    Oh, one last thing, if you act like a butthole, be prepared. Warning, not a threat. Homy don't play that game.

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