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  1. #1
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    can YOU hear me NOW?

    A few rides back i had an experience that summons the all wise opinions of my AZ. earth rolling experts, YOU! i was finishing a hawes ride with a bunch of friends and was leading the pack heading east to thomas rd. along the las sendas houses back fence.

    i saw a rider ahead, of which the gap between us was closing rapidly. as i got close, i yelled the tribal warning of "on your left"! no noticeable reaction occured from the other rider, untill i was passing by next to him. he reacted like i totally scared him and jerked his bars to the right . there was no crash or collision as i sailed past him. this happened just before we rode through the cemented rock garden that spits you out onto thomas rd. just east of power rd. and walgreens.

    so, the guy comes off the trail just behind me and hollers for me to stop . i brake as i pass the canal, and he pulls up to me. i'm thinking , does this guy want trouble? turns out the guy tells me i should be more carefull, cause he and his friend are both deaf . his friend rides up and after some fancy work between them with sign language. the friend looks at me and nods his head in agreement that yeah i should be watching out for them. by then my friends are rolling up and so i said yeah, ok. then we all parted ways.

    thinking back, i wonder if i shouldn't have defended myself more. shouldn't they have a sign or something to notify other riders of the situation, if they expect special treatment?

    i had no idea he was deaf. any ideas? thanx
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  2. #2
    Meatbomb
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    not much you can do in that situation.

  3. #3
    parenting for gnarness
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    rest easy in the comfort that you have attempted to be a sensitive guy. Good job being polite about it, its kinda hard when people get mad at you for following the rules of trail sharing. We're very quick to judge people who can't hear on the trail cause of headphones, is this situation any less irresponsible? A sign would have actually been a very useful idea.

    That section of trail...is kinda like parking at Wal-mart on the day after Thanksgiving.

  4. #4
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    At least you didn't pull the old "What the hell's wrong with you? Are you f-in deaf or what?" trick.

    p.

  5. #5
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    I'm not sure what he expected you to do anyway. I mean how do you get his attention from behind when he cant hear you coming?

  6. #6
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    paul, you owe me a new keyboard! thats some funny stuff.

    Bighorn Lew, you did the right thing and remain cool about it. You had no idea they were deaf.

    Next time maybe keep some M&M's in your jersey pocket to throw at people before you go around them.

  7. #7
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    My opinion on this is that riders pass unnecessarily too close as a matter of course. And by too close, I mean passing with enough spacing such that it is technically passing at the minimum level of acceptable safety, but still much closer than need be.

    I hear too many "passing" complaints. I hear too many stories from riders about how their precious flow gets all butt sore because of some dude jamming to tunes. When it comes to passing, too many riders have this unreasonable sense of entitlement and too many riders are rushing needlessly.

    In this case, it appears as if the passer simply attempted to pass too close even though he knew the rider ahead was not aware of him. This was done right before the exit to the street. How is this acceptable?

    When I pass, whether on the road or on the trail, I carry with me no sense of entitlement. I drop my hold on precious flow. I let go of the rush mentality and I pass slowly with room to spare and then some and then some and then even some more. If I think the rider in front of me is not aware of me, I am overly cautious and either pass with oodles of room or, more often, I wait until the dude IS aware of me. If this means I have to slow down, interrupt my flow, wait for a few moments or fart loudly, I do so happily.

    PS: I think having deaf riders wear a sign or something like one is absolutely outrageous. People need to pass better and assume that all riders are deaf and not pass until it is safe either because the rider is aware of you or you pass far far enough away such that the passed rider is not startled if in fact he/she cannot or did not hear or see you.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  8. #8
    I am the Tin Man!
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    I have been passed many times, far too many for my egos sake, (especially when its a chick) and it is startling when they say nothing, one guy passed me on a ridge with a pretty good drop off on the side at hawes and then told my buddies up ahead I was a trail tampon, like I didnt already know that.
    That being said, to try and assume all riders are deaf or cant hear is way extreme, like outlawing peanuts from every airplane because someone on the next flight might have a kid at home who is allergic to peanuts. If someone has a condition or disability like being deaf on a mountain bike it is their responsibility to alert others to be more cautious around them, not the other way around.
    I say Lew took the necessary steps by hollering out and did nothing wrong, you cant be expected to carry projectiles or neon boomerang strobe lights that can be seen in reverse. The other rider needs to get a little mirror on his helmet or something, they are easily found and available. What if you were a car passing him and he doesnt hear you coming? Roadkill.
    Flying the HiFi...Clyde style.


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  9. #9
    I, Mudd
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    I had a similar situation. I came up behind a couple at the base of a shaley decent. I made a lot of noise throwing rocks to the side as I came down and a yelled the obligatory "coming up behind you" (they were stopped). No reaction . . . I slowed to a crawl and shouted again. No reaction . . . Finally the guy saw me and signed to his wife. They both turned around and saw me and signed "Thank you" as I passed.

    It really was a very nice day that day.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertRat67
    I'm not sure what he expected you to do anyway. I mean how do you get his attention from behind when he cant hear you coming?
    In my clique, we signal with a buzz to the back tire - your bike's front knobby to his bike's
    rear knobby.

    [BZZZZzzzT!]

    And since we're all friends, we know what "the buzz" is all about. So, why not extend our
    friendship to strangers in kind?



    Follow me. Follow me. That's good, that's good! A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!
    Snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more?

    [BZZZZzzzT! BZZzzzzzzzzzt]
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  11. #11
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    I agree with you in some ways that they should have some basic sign as such...although in reality this may be hard as well in many ways and on many levels.

    But I think you reacted in the best way to be honest. There was no need for either you nor they to defend each others side of the fence as such. It was just one of those small life experiences where you learnt something new, breaking open some previously unexplored intellectual cavity within your minds perceptions of how things are...

    But I would have just given over alot of patience, tolerance and understanding while also mentioning to him - as if I would talk to anybody; that he likewise must take care, be careful while respecting others on the trail as much as humanly possible in an ideal world.

  12. #12
    Don't believe the Hype...
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    Hopefully he learned to pay more attention to his surroundings. I know it's happened to me. Off in my own little world and some speed demon creeps up behind me.

    It sounds messed up, but it would be alot easier for him to have a big "DEAF" on the back of his camelpak than to always be looking behind while riding.

    Just like it's my responiblity to light my self up at night so people don't run me over...
    Made with real bits of Panther, so you know it's good...

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  13. #13
    I am Walt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    At least you didn't pull the old "What the hell's wrong with you? Are you f-in deaf or what?" trick.

    p.
    LMAO...
    Ride more; post less...

  14. #14
    I am Bob
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by luckybastard
    It sounds messed up, but it would be alot easier for him to have a big "DEAF" on the back of his camelpak than to always be looking behind while riding.

    Just like it's my responiblity to light my self up at night so people don't run me over...
    Maybe it would be an equally good solution for speed deamons who are antsy to wait to know if their is clear communication to a sign on their Camelback that says "A-HOLE." That way everyone would know for sure
    (just kidding)

    It's pretty silly to suggest that people should have to wear sinage to identify a disability. just chalk it up as expereince and move on. it's not like your going to experience this very often.

    Sure it's your responsibility to light yourself up at night, but I don't see how that has anything to do with a deaf rider on a trail in the middle of the day. I'm not seeing how his presence was making anything unsafe.

  15. #15
    Ouch, I am hot!
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    What do you "pass elitists" not understand? Regardless of the reason, it is simply unacceptable to pass a rider too fast or too close when he is not aware of you. When you pass and trhe rider becomes startled, it is then abundantly clear that you passed irresponsibly.

    I would not want to wear a mirror or anything else on a mountain bike that may be a hazard. Hell, I would not want to wear something even if it just looked goofy. You people need to understand that passing someone is not a righteous act. You can yap all day long about how a passer did everything he could and about how the passee needs to take personal responsibility. However, simplifying all this to its core, riders should not pass someone close enough to startle them when they KNOW or have reason to beleive that the rider in front is not aware of them. If you want to argue personal responsibility, then perhaps you should take responsibilty for irresponsible passing behavior.

    There are numerous things that the passer could have done as follows:

    1. NOT PASS! Holly Cow Batman, you don't have to pass! Unbelievable.
    2. Wait a few moments until it is really safe to pass without startling the dude.
    3. Do not pass until you know the dude is aware that you will be passing.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  16. #16
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    Dude! You're harshin' my buzz!

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  17. #17
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    What do you "pass elitists" not understand? Regardless of the reason, it is simply unacceptable to pass a rider too fast or too close when he is not aware of you. When you pass and trhe rider becomes startled, it is then abundantly clear that you passed irresponsibly.

    I would not want to wear a mirror or anything else on a mountain bike that may be a hazard. Hell, I would not want to wear something even if it just looked goofy. You people need to understand that passing someone is not a righteous act. You can yap all day long about how a passer did everything he could and about how the passee needs to take personal responsibility. However, simplifying all this to its core, riders should not pass someone close enough to startle them when they KNOW or have reason to beleive that the rider in front is not aware of them. If you want to argue personal responsibility, then perhaps you should take responsibilty for irresponsible passing behavior.

    There are numerous things that the passer could have done as follows:

    1. NOT PASS! Holly Cow Batman, you don't have to pass! Unbelievable.
    2. Wait a few moments until it is really safe to pass without startling the dude.
    3. Do not pass until you know the dude is aware that you will be passing.
    somehow i am drawn to this thread like a car-wreck.

    DirDir - I respect your position, it is valid and consistent, but I completely disagree. The trail is a shared trail. Each person has responsibility to be safe and be aware that there are others out there. Passing someone fast is not necessarily unsafe, is it unsafe when a car passes me 3 feet away from me? You speak of entitlement, but how can you know the mind of the OP, and I can think of nothing more entitled than to assume that someone passing you has somehow violated you. Ironic even more that the startled biker who could not hear attempted to get his point across by chasing down the OP yelling at him to stop. Fast riders need to be considerate of slow riders, slow riders need to be considerate of fast riders - shared trail. Kids, people injured, etc merit special consideration...but this was a guy on a bike riding along looking perfectly comfortable (according to the OP) so how would you know? He wants special treatment, but he doesn't want to be stigmatized by a sign? What do you suggest, other than we all start tip-toeing around like parents fetching their kids out of daycare?

    Maybe you would see the foolishness in the situation if you knew the trail - it used to be a construction track, its single track on basically a dirt road. Flat, no turns, no elevation, wide. Even the "trial" next to the road is 8 feet wide.

    $h!t happened - the OP and the other rider both seemed like decent people trying to communicate after a misunderstanding. I ride that section of trail and the easy stuff on Hawes very fast, and over the last few years its become very populated with many slow riders. I am nice and safe and considerate around all of them, but its a shared trail and the passes are easy and I'm not slowing down to a crawl just because they are not comfortable with other riders on the trail.

  18. #18
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    I find this intensely ironic, having personally witnessed Geoff practically shove a guy off Javelina in what appeared to be a mad dash to get past him.

    (And, just to add insult to injury, I was behind Geoff and actually DID stumble and push the guy off the trail...not one of my prouder trail-diplomat moments.)

    p.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    somehow i am drawn to this thread like a car-wreck.

    DirDir - I respect your position, it is valid and consistent, but I completely disagree. The trail is a shared trail. Each person has responsibility to be safe and be aware that there are others out there. Passing someone fast is not necessarily unsafe, is it unsafe when a car passes me 3 feet away from me? You speak of entitlement, but how can you know the mind of the OP, and I can think of nothing more entitled than to assume that someone passing you has somehow violated you. Ironic even more that the startled biker who could not hear attempted to get his point across by chasing down the OP yelling at him to stop. Fast riders need to be considerate of slow riders, slow riders need to be considerate of fast riders - shared trail. Kids, people injured, etc merit special consideration...but this was a guy on a bike riding along looking perfectly comfortable (according to the OP) so how would you know? He wants special treatment, but he doesn't want to be stigmatized by a sign? What do you suggest, other than we all start tip-toeing around like parents fetching their kids out of daycare?

    Maybe you would see the foolishness in the situation if you knew the trail - it used to be a construction track, its single track on basically a dirt road. Flat, no turns, no elevation, wide. Even the "trial" next to the road is 8 feet wide.

    $h!t happened - the OP and the other rider both seemed like decent people trying to communicate after a misunderstanding. I ride that section of trail and the easy stuff on Hawes very fast, and over the last few years its become very populated with many slow riders. I am nice and safe and considerate around all of them, but its a shared trail and the passes are easy and I'm not slowing down to a crawl just because they are not comfortable with other riders on the trail.
    Very simple solution if you ask me: ban all deaf (and gays) from the trail.

    (Come on, if we can't repress the Blacks any more, we need to find somebody else to repress.)
    Rarely adds anything productive to threads

  20. #20
    Saucy Size Moderator
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    Those goofy frisbee-throwers should be the first against the wall.

    p.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Those goofy frisbee-throwers should be the first against the wall.

    p.
    Frisbee throwers love everybody...and I mean literally in some cases.
    Rarely adds anything productive to threads

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    somehow i am drawn to this thread like a car-wreck.

    DirDir - I respect your position, it is valid and consistent, but I completely disagree. The trail is a shared trail. Each person has responsibility to be safe and be aware that there are others out there. Passing someone fast is not necessarily unsafe, is it unsafe when a car passes me 3 feet away from me? You speak of entitlement, but how can you know the mind of the OP, and I can think of nothing more entitled than to assume that someone passing you has somehow violated you. Ironic even more that the startled biker who could not hear attempted to get his point across by chasing down the OP yelling at him to stop. Fast riders need to be considerate of slow riders, slow riders need to be considerate of fast riders - shared trail. Kids, people injured, etc merit special consideration...but this was a guy on a bike riding along looking perfectly comfortable (according to the OP) so how would you know? He wants special treatment, but he doesn't want to be stigmatized by a sign? What do you suggest, other than we all start tip-toeing around like parents fetching their kids out of daycare?

    Maybe you would see the foolishness in the situation if you knew the trail - it used to be a construction track, its single track on basically a dirt road. Flat, no turns, no elevation, wide. Even the "trial" next to the road is 8 feet wide.

    $h!t happened - the OP and the other rider both seemed like decent people trying to communicate after a misunderstanding. I ride that section of trail and the easy stuff on Hawes very fast, and over the last few years its become very populated with many slow riders. I am nice and safe and considerate around all of them, but its a shared trail and the passes are easy and I'm not slowing down to a crawl just because they are not comfortable with other riders on the trail.
    All that I am advocating for is that we pass others appropriately. I am not advocating in any way for special treatment. This has nothing to do with being violated. The fact that the dude was deaf is irrelevant. This is real simple. Riders should be able to pass other riders without startling them. To do this, either pass with something like 10 feet of room or make sure the person in front of you is aware of your presence before you pass. This is what riding responsible is all about. This is considerate riding. I have been doing this riding thing a long time. Deaf people riding bikes is not the problem. Irresponsible passers is a rush that are unwilling to disrupt their precious flow is a problem.

    Take this to a road situation. I have said time and time again, the rush/precious flow mentality displayed by riders on the trail is precisely the same rush/precious flow mentality drivers have when it comes to bike riders out on the road. This state of minds resuls in putting people in danger simply to save, or more often to appear to save, mere seconds from their drive.

    Botom line here is that the dude passed another rider without knowing for sure that the rider was aware of him passing. This situation can and should be avoided with no meaningful price paid. No one is giving up rights. No one is getting special treatment.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  23. #23
    Ouch, I am hot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    I find this intensely ironic, having personally witnessed Geoff practically shove a guy off Javelina in what appeared to be a mad dash to get past him.

    (And, just to add insult to injury, I was behind Geoff and actually DID stumble and push the guy off the trail...not one of my prouder trail-diplomat moments.)

    p.
    I was ashamed of my behavior here. Although the fact that it was several years ago is no excuse, it does indicate that I have learned how to pass better since that incident. Indeed, that incident helped me fully develop my current position on passing. I made a mistake I hope to never repeat.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  24. #24
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    All that I am advocating for is that we pass others appropriately. I am not advocating in any way for special treatment. This has nothing to do with being violated. The fact that the dude was deaf is irrelevant. This is real simple. Riders should be able to pass other riders without startling them. To do this, either pass with something like 10 feet of room or make sure the person in front of you is aware of your presence before you pass. This is what riding responsible is all about. This is considerate riding. I have been doing this riding thing a long time. Deaf people riding bikes is not the problem. Irresponsible passers is a rush that are unwilling to disrupt their precious flow is a problem.

    Take this to a road situation. I have said time and time again, the rush/precious flow mentality displayed by riders on the trail is precisely the same rush/precious flow mentality drivers have when it comes to bike riders out on the road. This state of minds resuls in putting people in danger simply to save, or more often to appear to save, mere seconds from their drive.

    Botom line here is that the dude passed another rider without knowing for sure that the rider was aware of him passing. This situation can and should be avoided with no meaningful price paid. No one is giving up rights. No one is getting special treatment.
    i agree with you when it comes to cars in traffic - there is nothing to be gained from passing a single car just to sit in front of them, weaving, tailgating etc. Passing 3 cars formation driving on an otherwise-open road is a much more valid comparison to this situation.

    When the person in front is (for whatever reason) not acknowledging your signals and the trail is safe and the pass is safe, the burden of responsibility shifts, and if you get startled by your own capacity for isolationism then that is your problem. Share the trail, IMO.

  25. #25
    Ouch, I am hot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    When the person in front is (for whatever reason) not acknowledging your signals and the trail is safe and the pass is safe, the burden of responsibility shifts, and if you get startled by your own capacity for isolationism then that is your problem. Share the trail, IMO.
    The basis for non-acknowledgment of signals by the "passee" is, IMHO, irrelevant. The "passor" has the duty to pass appropriately. IMHO, it is inappropriate to pass in such a way that may startle the "passee" because, among other reasons, the "passee" is not aware of the "passor's" presence.

    Using the same logic as your scenario does, it is acceptable to blow someone's head off at the shooting range as long as you have made an attempt to inform him he is standing in front of your target. IMHO, the "passor" has the greater burden and the higher fiduciary duty as he/she is the one taking the action as it relates to the other rider.
    I AM JUST A JERK

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