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  1. #1
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    AES McDowell 70 roll call

    Ok... So with the race coming up, who's in?

    Bart and I pre-rode the course today. Took us just over 8 hours. It's a tough course, probably a bit tougher than ppp. The descent down the north side of Tom's is dicey... And with lots of hikers, you've gotta be careful. There's about 20 miles of track north of dynamite which is actually harder than what we expected. And lastly, the climb up prospector and bell after all those miles was brutal.
    Bring lights!
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  2. #2
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    Nice pre-ride, Ray. I'm not in it but I'll try to be riding in the area just for kicks.

  3. #3
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    I'll be there. Were you able to ride the full descent off Tom's Thumb or was there glorious downhill HAB?
    I ride the crappy trails so you don't have to
    My Two Schillingsworth

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    I'll be there. Were you able to ride the full descent off Tom's Thumb or was there glorious downhill HAB?
    ^this.
    inquiring minds want to know. how's it stack up to East End and TT?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    I'll be there. Were you able to ride the full descent off Tom's Thumb or was there glorious downhill HAB?
    you don't ride down the back of Tom's Thumb.... you drift down.

  6. #6
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    I'm in and feeling mean.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Ok... So with the race coming up, who's in?

    Bart and I pre-rode the course today. Took us just over 8 hours. It's a tough course, probably a bit tougher than ppp. The descent down the north side of Tom's is dicey... And with lots of hikers, you've gotta be careful. There's about 20 miles of track north of dynamite which is actually harder than what we expected. And lastly, the climb up prospector and bell after all those miles was brutal.
    Bring lights!

    This course was not meant to be that hard. However, it was cobbled together without anyone actually riding the entire thing. Now that Ray and Bart have scoped it out, I'm going to make some small adjustments to make it a little less brutal. Don't worry, Toms Thumb and the climb up to Bell are staying in - they are essential. However, there are some extras that got thrown in that can come out.

    More on this later today.

  8. #8
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    AES is not supposed to be easy. Perhaps a "Short" version of the course is needed? Picket Post has it... Kentucky Camp has it...

    Having two versions allows new riders to join in the fun and sample AES without getting in over their heads but leaves a real "Endurance" component in for those angry [singlespeeders] who look forward to a weekend of suffering and self-mutilation.

    I'll be there regardless of what shape the course takes and, yes, I am bringing a light.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by az3075 View Post
    AES is not supposed to be easy. Perhaps a "Short" version of the course is needed? Picket Post has it... Kentucky Camp has it...

    Having two versions allows new riders to join in the fun and sample AES without getting in over their heads but leaves a real "Endurance" component in for those angry [singlespeeders] who look forward to a weekend of suffering and self-mutilation.

    I'll be there regardless of what shape the course takes and, yes, I am bringing a light.

    Yup. There will be a short course.

    Working out the details.

  10. #10
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    its on a Sunday! hooray! no effing kids soccer!
    i am planning on it.

  11. #11
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    **important info if you are doing the race**

    The McDowell race is coming up soon. Couple of items to note.

    1. It is on SUNDAY, December 15.
    2. The course has changed dramatically from past years and now offers a long and short version.
    3. There were some corrections made to the GPS track today (11/30), so if you downloaded the track already you need to go out and get it again.



    Details on the site:
    9 McDowell Mountain | Arizona Endurance Series

  12. #12
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    I rode everything but the passes yesterday and had a few observations. #1 there are a couple road closed gates that I went around. Assuming that is fine? #2 A lot of the trails to the north after the Brown Mt climb look closed off. I cant tell you how many turns I missed even with the GPS. I see that the course has been modified but it looks like it still goes through that area somewhat and while it doesnt have a closed sign someone clearly put brush and debris in the trail to close it.

    #3 there is a new trail head parking lot at the bottom of the Whiskey Bottle trail. There is a barbed wire fence in the way of the GPS track. Unless I missed something you will need to follow the road down from the TH to the main road turn right and then left to get back on course.

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-2013-11-30_1235.jpg
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    This course was not meant to be that hard. However, it was cobbled together without anyone actually riding the entire thing. Now that Ray and Bart have scoped it out, I'm going to make some small adjustments to make it a little less brutal. Don't worry, Toms Thumb and the climb up to Bell are staying in - they are essential. However, there are some extras that got thrown in that can come out.

    More on this later today.
    That makes it interesting. I rode everything excluding Bell and TT (total was 55 miles) and while I did that in 6 hours I thought to myself there is no way I could make this with TT and Bell thrown in there. Those northern most trails sucked the life out of me. I was actually going to back out. Guess I will have to reconsider.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I rode everything but the passes yesterday and had a few observations. #1 there are a couple road closed gates that I went around. Assuming that is fine? #2 A lot of the trails to the north after the Brown Mt climb look closed off. I cant tell you how many turns I missed even with the GPS. I see that the course has been modified but it looks like it still goes through that area somewhat and while it doesnt have a closed sign someone clearly put brush and debris in the trail to close it.

    #3 there is a new trail head parking lot at the bottom of the Whiskey Bottle trail. There is a barbed wire fence in the way of the GPS track. Unless I missed something you will need to follow the road down from the TH to the main road turn right and then left to get back on course.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    #1 Yep. The gates off the competitive loop are often open. If not, climb over. The fence at 128th - that's to keep the horses out so they don't disturb the mountain bikers. It's not an official AES race if you aren't going over a barbed wire fence or taking some random, unofficial path.

    #2 Yes, that is the "old" section. It is not part of the new stuff at Brown's Ranch. It is fine to ride out there. However, since it is kind of a mess now and more hassle than it is worth, I cut it out of the course.

    #3 That is fixed on the new track.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Ok... So with the race coming up, who's in?

    Bart and I pre-rode the course today. Took us just over 8 hours. It's a tough course, probably a bit tougher than ppp. The descent down the north side of Tom's is dicey... And with lots of hikers, you've gotta be careful. There's about 20 miles of track north of dynamite which is actually harder than what we expected. And lastly, the climb up prospector and bell after all those miles was brutal.
    Bring lights!
    and hiking shoes.

  16. #16
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    In for the Weenie course.

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    I've done this one the last 4 years, but I'm having the hardware taken out of my shoulder the Friday before, so I'm out. Kinda bummed. This one was my first big ride.

    Hopefully the Hidden Hills issue will be resolved for next years course so you can put Sunrise back in instead of going towards Brown's Ranch.

  18. #18
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    i heard Brown's Ranch got beat to all hell by horses, will the course be going through that?

  19. #19
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    yeah, it does. Two sections are particularly bad, the descent down Browns Peak (although there is a hardpacked, 6" wide strip to ride that isn't too bad) and the stuff leading up to and north of Fraesfield Mtn.
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  20. #20
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    Yeah I had a few choice words for our fellow trail users (didnt actually encounter any just talking to myself) while riding over, some up to 6 inch deep, post holes. Seemed to be 3 or 4 horses that went out too soon after a rain. Then again I figure our other fellow trail users will be having a few choice words about us when we all come down the north end of Tom's Thumb. That trail head has been packed the last few times I've been up there.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  21. #21
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    I used to ride the trails in Brown's Ranch area on my dirt bike before they took it away from us. My memory says they wouldn't be that fun on a pedal bike.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    #1 Yep. The gates off the competitive loop are often open. If not, climb over. The fence at 128th - that's to keep the horses out so they don't disturb the mountain bikers. It's not an official AES race if you aren't going over a barbed wire fence or taking some random, unofficial path.

    #2 Yes, that is the "old" section. It is not part of the new stuff at Brown's Ranch. It is fine to ride out there. However, since it is kind of a mess now and more hassle than it is worth, I cut it out of the course.

    #3 That is fixed on the new track.
    Those changes probably shave off an hour off the long option. Those old moto trails were tough and hard to find.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleGerl View Post
    I've done this one the last 4 years, but I'm having the hardware taken out of my shoulder the Friday before, so I'm out. Kinda bummed. This one was my first big ride.

    Hopefully the Hidden Hills issue will be resolved for next years course so you can put Sunrise back in instead of going towards Brown's Ranch.
    Bummer. And you were one of the few survivors from last year's "weather event".

    Scottsdale bought the last little parcel of land that they didn't have in the McDowells last month. That clears them to create a trail from Sunrise over to Ftn Hills - bypassing Hidden Hills. Hopefully that happens before next year's ride. Interestingly, there is also talk about extending Granite - up to Thompson Peak. Now that would be a climb!

    More here:
    http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/Assets/P...rve+Update.pdf

  24. #24
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    That's great news, the Sunrise bypass will be a huge enhancement. I just wish I had knees for the long rides, I may have to get new ones someday!

  25. #25
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    Not for certain, but leaning towards IN for the short course.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyharris View Post
    Not for certain, but leaning towards IN for the short course.
    For people considering the short course, there really isn't a dramatic difference between the two and you will be missing out on a water source by the comp loops.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    For people considering the short course, there really isn't a dramatic difference between the two and you will be missing out on a water source by the comp loops.
    This is true. By the looks of it the short loop cuts out 10.8 miles of Pemberton, 3 miles of the Scenic Trail, and the first 1.8 miles of the Comp Long Loop. Other than that it only varies by its approach to Bell. The short coming up CoachWhip to WindMill and up Bell Pass from the bottom of the east side. And the long coming up Dixie Mine to Prospector and finishing off the upper half of Bell Pass on the east side.

    Then again 16 mile is 16 miles.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    This is true. By the looks of it the short loop cuts out 10.8 miles of Pemberton, 3 miles of the Scenic Trail, and the first 1.8 miles of the Comp Long Loop. Other than that it only varies by its approach to Bell. The short coming up CoachWhip to WindMill and up Bell Pass from the bottom of the east side. And the long coming up Dixie Mine to Prospector and finishing off the upper half of Bell Pass on the east side.

    Then again 16 mile is 16 miles.
    imo, the approach to Bell is about the same. Prospector is steeper but shorter, imo.

    So has anyone ridden down the North side off TT? If its ridable like East End, I'll plan on hitting it. But dont want to get into those switchbacks if they are unridable. For reference, I ride all of East End and the west side down of Tom's Thumb.

  29. #29
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    CB, you're a heck of a rider would think you can ride those. Bart (I think) rode all of them although his new name is drift-master. Lots of controlled sliding on the kitty litter off the north side. I walked some of the steeper stuff where an uncontrolled slide would have led to an ugly crash...plus, with tons of hikers coming up, you had to keep some semblance of control. Hate to think what would happen to our little race series if someone took out a hiker or three.
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    Like Ray said its all kitty litter. No chunk like east end. Ive actually climbed TT from the north and I was able to ride most of it with the exception of a handful of switchbacks. My concern coming down is keeping control with all the hikers considering how loose and steep it is. The last few times Ive been there the TH has been rather busy. Its not like a busy day on Camelback but coming up on a few groups of 6-10 hikers was not uncommon. I probably encountered around 3-4 dozen people during my climb up.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  31. #31
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    I am in and pre-rode from TT Parking Lot to the Brown's Ranch segment yesterday. Some great trails in that area and was bummed to see all the damage that some equestrians caused. Had a bit of a tough time navigating all of the turns in the BR area with my GPS, but was able to figure it out eventually. My Edge 500 was a little slow to update at times. I was using the GPX file converted over to TCX via the GPSies website. Anyone know if the CRS files work any better on the Garmin Edge 500?



    I was considering the shorter course, but the lack of H20 stop might be an issue for me. Is is cool to drop a water cache somewhere on the route?
    Last edited by mcoplea; 12-02-2013 at 11:36 PM.
    Marty

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Like Ray said its all kitty litter. No chunk like east end. Ive actually climbed TT from the north and I was able to ride most of it with the exception of a handful of switchbacks. My concern coming down is keeping control with all the hikers considering how loose and steep it is. The last few times Ive been there the TH has been rather busy. Its not like a busy day on Camelback but coming up on a few groups of 6-10 hikers was not uncommon. I probably encountered around 3-4 dozen people during my climb up.
    my recollection from hab'ing it a few times was there were 3/4ths of a mile of straight walking, but mostly smooth. Probably a lot like the stuff leading off the TT summit after the cave, or on Sunrise. m'eh, i'll give it a roll and be sure to look downtrail for hikers. Odds are I will be near the back, so folks like Ray can get all the hikers good and pissed off for me .

  33. #33
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    Rumor has it that there is a time bonus for each hiker you take out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Rumor has it that there is a time bonus for each hiker you take out.
    Might be the first time since I've started mountain biking that being 200 lbs comes in handy. Time to make like a 16 lbs bowling ball.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea View Post

    I was considering the shorter course, but the lack of H20 stop might be an issue for me. Is is cool to drop a water cache somewhere on the route?
    I've only done a couple of these events but to my understanding that is not cool, would be considered cheating, and DNF. The name of the game is self reliance so if you have to ride the long course to get the water that's what you do.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  36. #36
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    Yeah, I mean honestly, if you tank up at Browns Ranch with 148oz, you should be good. You can always go off route back to Browns Ranch before heading south across Pima, but that would add miles such that you may as well do the long route.
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    I'm presuming that if change our minds that we can do either route during the race and just report it when we finish (if we finish)?

  38. #38
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    I noticed on the MMP map that it says and shows Sonoran in Fountain Hills is "hike only". Won't affect this years ride but is that a new thing ?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Rumor has it that there is a time bonus for each hiker you take out.
    i dont take out hikers, I use my charisma and O-face so that they want to jump out of my way.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Yeah, I mean honestly, if you tank up at Browns Ranch with 148oz, you should be good. You can always go off route back to Browns Ranch before heading south across Pima, but that would add miles such that you may as well do the long route.
    I did not realize that there was water up at Brown's ranch. I thought that the only water stop was at the comp loops parking lot.
    Marty

  41. #41
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    Sadly, I will be showing up.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by azepicriderandrunner View Post
    Sadly, I will be showing up.
    Just don't get near the sign in/out sheet... We know what could happen....
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  43. #43
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    Boom!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea View Post
    I did not realize that there was water up at Brown's ranch. I thought that the only water stop was at the comp loops parking lot.
    For the record I was carrying 2 bottles and so did Ray. I had 45 oz and it was more than plenty to last me from Basha's to BR TH. I was few ounces short before we got to the comp loops. I am guessing with a little easier course, 48 ounces and temps in the 60s - should be plenty for me in 2 weeks.
    I couldn't imagine someone having any water issues with a 100 oz pack.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    For the record I was carrying 2 bottles and so did Ray. I had 45 oz and it was more than plenty to last me from Basha's to BR TH. I was few ounces short before we got to the comp loops. I am guessing with a little easier course, 48 ounces and temps in the 60s - should be plenty for me in 2 weeks.
    I couldn't imagine someone having any water issues with a 100 oz pack.
    For the record and compared to Ray (and I'm assuming Bart ^), I am slow but steady, handsome like mule. If Ray did this in 8? I would do 10-11. I personally always have more water than i need, but I agree with the water assessment for a fit AZ rider. For me, up and down TT will be ~2.5. Out to BR ~1hr. The BR segment would be 3hr, the MMP and Pemby 2hr, and up and down Bell 2hr. Hope those number help some of you set expectations.

  46. #46
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    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?

    In the past few AES rides I have pushed through this, as I don't like the idea of not moving because I know I cant finish if I just sit there. But I always wonder if a 15 min break would have actually helped? I never feel better again when pushing through. If my fatigue was at a 10 and I push through it eventually comes down to a 9 for the remainder of the ride. Im just curious if a 15 minute break can get me back down to a 6 or 7 or will I be back up to a 9 anyway in the next few miles?

    Again I know this is probably different for everyone and this is why you need to train. I understand there is a no one size fits all solution I was just curious what others have found.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I've only done a couple of these events but to my understanding that is not cool, would be considered cheating, and DNF. The name of the game is self reliance so if you have to ride the long course to get the water that's what you do.
    My understanding is that these are self supported... any clarification would be helpful. I know this event is far from the AZT 300 but it is the same concept. What's wrong with stashing some items (water) for raceday??

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    Quote Originally Posted by timothyclaus View Post
    My understanding is that these are self supported... any clarification would be helpful. I know this event is far from the AZT 300 but it is the same concept. What's wrong with stashing some items (water) for raceday??
    Again Im relatively new to this but have asked the same questions. Basically if something is available to one it needs to be available to all. So riding a mile off course to a circle K is legit because its available to everyone riding the event. Or the water source at Brown Ranch Trail head since its available to everyone. But if I have to ride 30 miles with a 20 lbs camelbak with 200oz and you only bring 1 water bottle because you have several stashes of water along the course that isn't fair.

    Part of the challenge of these events is the logistics. You need to prioritize what is important enough to bring and how much. You need to map out your nutritional needs and distances between the available water sources. Does that help any?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  49. #49
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    Nice, Ray.

    Couple of things here.

    1. Brown's ranch not only has water, it has bathrooms that are nicer than in some apartments I've lived in. They spent bucks on that trailhead and it shows. However, the Tom's Thumb trailhead does NOT have water. At any rate, you should be able to carry enough water from Brown's to get you back on the short course. Shouldn't be a real need to cache.
    2. Cholla, if you can make it around some of those rutted out switchbacks going down the north side of TT, I'll be duly impressed.
    3. All joking aside; Please, Please, Please, be courteous to hikers. This has been a popular race and I'd like to keep doing it. Pissing off other trail users is not going to help.
    4. Since the multi-loop thing happened late in the game, there is ONE sign up for both loops. You can specify on the sign in sheet, which you did.

    Looking forward to a beautiful day (unlike last year) for a big ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?

    In the past few AES rides I have pushed through this, as I don't like the idea of not moving because I know I cant finish if I just sit there. But I always wonder if a 15 min break would have actually helped? I never feel better again when pushing through. If my fatigue was at a 10 and I push through it eventually comes down to a 9 for the remainder of the ride. Im just curious if a 15 minute break can get me back down to a 6 or 7 or will I be back up to a 9 anyway in the next few miles?

    Again I know this is probably different for everyone and this is why you need to train. I understand there is a no one size fits all solution I was just curious what others have found.

    Nancy and I are the "never stop moving" types. We don't push so hard that we blow up, but hate to stop for more than a couple of minutes. Slow and steady just works for us.

    I will say that there are times when my stomach feels awful and I just want to lay down and die. However, I just slow my pace, take in small amounts of nutrition, and keep rolling. Sometimes it gets better and I can ramp back up. Sometimes I just roll slow to the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?

    In the past few AES rides I have pushed through this, as I don't like the idea of not moving because I know I cant finish if I just sit there. But I always wonder if a 15 min break would have actually helped? I never feel better again when pushing through. If my fatigue was at a 10 and I push through it eventually comes down to a 9 for the remainder of the ride. Im just curious if a 15 minute break can get me back down to a 6 or 7 or will I be back up to a 9 anyway in the next few miles?

    Again I know this is probably different for everyone and this is why you need to train. I understand there is a no one size fits all solution I was just curious what others have found.
    safety break

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?

    In the past few AES rides I have pushed through this, as I don't like the idea of not moving because I know I cant finish if I just sit there. But I always wonder if a 15 min break would have actually helped? I never feel better again when pushing through. If my fatigue was at a 10 and I push through it eventually comes down to a 9 for the remainder of the ride. Im just curious if a 15 minute break can get me back down to a 6 or 7 or will I be back up to a 9 anyway in the next few miles?

    Again I know this is probably different for everyone and this is why you need to train. I understand there is a no one size fits all solution I was just curious what others have found.
    Depends on the situation for me. If it's an attitude thing like it was during the HAB up Mingus in the dark, stopping, turning out the lights, a gel, and getting my head right was the way to go.
    If it's from going too hard, just letting off the gas and refueling some is enough.

    Like Dtown mentioned, eating in either situation should help

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    Nice, Ray.

    1. Brown's ranch not only has water, it has bathrooms that are nicer than in some apartments I've lived in. They spent bucks on that trailhead and it shows. However, the Tom's Thumb trailhead does NOT have water. At any rate, you should be able to carry enough water from Brown's to get you back on the short course. Shouldn't be a real need to cache.
    .
    Is there a faucet there other than the drinking fountains and bathroom sinks? Something easier to fill a bladder or bottle?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Is there a faucet there other than the drinking fountains and bathroom sinks? Something easier to fill a bladder or bottle?
    this is Scottsdale!
    AES McDowell 70 roll call-dolphinfountain.jpg

    a nymph will even dust your balls for you!!

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    As long as they dust them with a little Gold Bond Medicated powder. I will need that after 50 miles.

    I figured since they have a doggie drinking fountain they might have a hose bib somewhere I didnt see. Figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Wait a minute, what did I do?

    I go through ups and downs over a long ride. Eating is a huge part and a little caffeine goes a long way too. Stopping to rest has never been helpful to me, matter of fact, it just makes my legs feel heavy. Generally stops for me are to unwrap some food and shove it in mouth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    As long as they dust them with a little Gold Bond Medicated powder. I will need that after 50 miles.

    I figured since they have a doggie drinking fountain they might have a hose bib somewhere I didnt see. Figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
    ironically, I suggested that at the BR TH planning meeting 3 years ago. It got lost amidst the more sensible ideas for granite countertops in the bathroom.

    i carry a water bottle, even if empty, for this sort of thing.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Wait a minute, what did I do?

    Stopping to rest has never been helpful to me, matter of fact, it just makes me cranky.
    I think that's a bit more accurate.

    Fatigue?? Bah!! Never happens. I purposely neglect my bike maintenance until race day, that way, I know I'll have plenty of opportunities to rest while I fix my ride trailside. Fix the bike just long enough until the next big obstacle en route. See, I get tons of 'rest' on these rides and my bike gets a tune-up!!

    I can see Ray cringe as he reads this.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?
    That varies by rider like most things, but in general, taking one break will sooner or later be asking for another.

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    For me, a short break (less than 5 mins) can be helpful. If I stop much longer, I have a very hard time getting going again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?

    In the past few AES rides I have pushed through this, as I don't like the idea of not moving because I know I cant finish if I just sit there. But I always wonder if a 15 min break would have actually helped? I never feel better again when pushing through. If my fatigue was at a 10 and I push through it eventually comes down to a 9 for the remainder of the ride. Im just curious if a 15 minute break can get me back down to a 6 or 7 or will I be back up to a 9 anyway in the next few miles?

    Again I know this is probably different for everyone and this is why you need to train. I understand there is a no one size fits all solution I was just curious what others have found.
    I only stop to get something out of my pack, etc. I prefer to keep moving. A feed bag helps for that if you don't already have one.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    A bit off topic but I wanted to get some input from the more seasoned veterans of these endurance events. So you know when you really start to hit that wall where you feel very fatigued, almost to the point you could just fall off the bike or just stop an lay down, is it better to push through this or do you find its better to stop and take a 15 min break?

    In the past few AES rides I have pushed through this, as I don't like the idea of not moving because I know I cant finish if I just sit there. But I always wonder if a 15 min break would have actually helped? I never feel better again when pushing through. If my fatigue was at a 10 and I push through it eventually comes down to a 9 for the remainder of the ride. Im just curious if a 15 minute break can get me back down to a 6 or 7 or will I be back up to a 9 anyway in the next few miles?

    Again I know this is probably different for everyone and this is why you need to train. I understand there is a no one size fits all solution I was just curious what others have found.
    I don't fit into the seasoned endurance category,
    But for what it's worth, the stop I made at Circle K on the AES Picketpost ride was awesome. I was getting to where I was dragging and not feeling good. The stop completely revitalized me and I had a terrific time on the section on the south of the highway.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

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    I imagine drinking a cold beer, that keeps me going through the whole ride.

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    Just a few days away now. Based on my analysis I'm estimating that it will take me 10h 5min for the long loop and 7h 35min for the short loop (assuming no issues). Ouch. Got to get myself mentally amped up for the suffer fest. I'm still not decided on which one yet as I haven't been riding as much as I would have liked since the KC event. While easy (on fresh legs) those extra 16 miles and more importantly additional 2 hours prior to climbing Bell can be a game changer. Decisions, decisions.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Just a few days away now. Based on my analysis I'm estimating that it will take me 10h 5min for the long loop and 7h 35min for the short loop (assuming no issues). Ouch. Got to get myself mentally amped up for the suffer fest. I'm still not decided on which one yet as I haven't been riding as much as I would have liked since the KC event. While easy (on fresh legs) those extra 16 miles and more importantly additional 2 hours prior to climbing Bell can be a game changer. Decisions, decisions.
    The extra 16 miles does include some nice, easy downhill. However, what goes down, must come back up. So you also have a good amount of climbing from the comp loop back up to Bell. Plus a little bit of extra rocky climbing on Scenic.

    Make it a true dawn to dusk and do the full meal deal. Descending Bell at dusk would be awesome.

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    Yeah the 2 climbs up to Prospector from the comp loops have me worried. Again these aren't necessarily a big deal on fresh legs but hitting a 3.3 mile climb with a avg slope of 3% followed by a 1.8 mile climb with an avg slope of 4% between mile 48 and 54, and right before the climb up Bell has me concerned. I guess pain is the name of the game.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Yeah the 2 climbs up to Prospector from the comp loops have me worried. Again these aren't necessarily a big deal on fresh legs but hitting a 3.3 mile climb with a avg slope of 3% followed by a 1.8 mile climb with an avg slope of 4% between mile 48 and 54, and right before the climb up Bell has me concerned. I guess pain is the name of the game.
    the climb out of the loops is not that bad, its slow and steady. The push up to Bell is hard, but not long. I would consider bringing a real light, or bailing out of the long loop much sooner, as descending Bell in the dark would be sketchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I guess pain is the name of the game.
    Good guess!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Yeah the 2 climbs up to Prospector from the comp loops have me worried. Again these aren't necessarily a big deal on fresh legs but hitting a 3.3 mile climb with a avg slope of 3% followed by a 1.8 mile climb with an avg slope of 4% between mile 48 and 54, and right before the climb up Bell has me concerned. I guess pain is the name of the game.
    If it were easy, everyone would do it.

    Climbing Prospector at the end of the day is suffering. Ask anyone who has done the quad bypass. But you gotta earn that post ride beer somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    Good guess!
    Yeah I figured that out pretty early with the PicketPost Punisher.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Yeah I figured that out pretty early with the PicketPost Punisher.
    there are a few bypasses to save a few min here and there. I am not opposed to them if it keeps me out of the Pain Cave - i'll be suffering either way, best not to make it awful.

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    I'll be in Sedona hiking and looking at Christmas lights, per the wife A happy wife is a happy life, right?
    I really would like to do one of these events soon. Love the write ups and what not, can't wait to be a part of one.
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    Yeah I'm actually quite familiar with those trails. A past training ride had me climbing up to the top of Bell from the start of Prospector in 29 minutes. I just know what happens to me on these rides and how tired and weak Im going to be at that point in the game. I'm already planning on bringing a magicshine just in case. Im figuring 2 hours from the comp loops to the top of Bell. (hopefully I havent grossly underestimated)
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    there are a few bypasses to save a few min here and there. I am not opposed to them if it keeps me out of the Pain Cave - i'll be suffering either way, best not to make it awful.
    What are these bypasses you speak of? Well the magicshine is not only going to be used after the sun goes down but also for all the spelunking I'm going to be doing in the pain cave.

    Edit: Think I just came up with a new T-shirt idea. "AES. Spelunking the Pain Cave" lol
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    What are these bypasses you speak of? Well the magicshine is not only going to be used after the sun goes down but also for all the spelunking I'm going to be doing in the pain cave.
    you're grossly misinterpreting the phrase "look deep inside yourself"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    What are these bypasses you speak of? Well the magicshine is not only going to be used after the sun goes down but also for all the spelunking I'm going to be doing in the pain cave.
    You could take the road out of the Bashas and skip most of the trail right out of Gateway loop, and there is one before the TT/Windgate split that I will definitely take. Together they save ~20 min but mostly keep you away from all the hikers. I think probably a few cuts you could make in BR and the Comp loops, but I'll be guessing on those via the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    You could take the road out of the Bashas and skip most of the trail right out of Gateway loop, and there is one before the TT/Windgate split that I will definitely take. Together they save ~20 min but mostly keep you away from all the hikers. I think probably a few cuts you could make in BR and the Comp loops, but I'll be guessing on those via the map.
    While I understand you can do whatever you want/need to out there wouldn't bypassing part of the course to shorten it or get around a tough section constitute a DNF? Not trying to be an ass or tell you what you can or cant do, I was just under this impression.

    Are you are referring to turning left off of Desert Park Trail and riding up the double track to TT, bypassing Windgate all together? I'd prefer that route too.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Yeah I'm actually quite familiar with those trails. A past training ride had me climbing up to the top of Bell from the start of Prospector in 29 minutes. I just know what happens to me on these rides and how tired and weak Im going to be at that point in the game. I'm already planning on bringing a magicshine just in case. Im figuring 2 hours from the comp loops to the top of Bell. (hopefully I havent grossly underestimated)
    lights will just weigh you down, no better motivator to push on than a setting sun on the horizon, I chased plenty of sunsets - great for setting records

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    lights will just weigh you down, no better motivator to push on than a setting sun on the horizon, I chased plenty of sunsets - great for setting records
    I would love to be able to say I could do that but when I start to crash, I crash hard. All my time estimates are based on my training data and I just dont see that I have the physical ability to push much harder without catastrophic results.

    I need all the help I can get. I might stay at a Holiday Inn Express Saturday night.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    While I understand you can do whatever you want/need to out there wouldn't bypassing part of the course to shorten it or get around a tough section constitute a DNF? Not trying to be an ass or tell you what you can or cant do, I was just under this impression.

    Are you are referring to turning left off of Desert Park Trail and riding up the double track to TT, bypassing Windgate all together? I'd prefer that route too.
    yes, and yes. I DGAF about DNF. 10 hour ride is hard enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    While I understand you can do whatever you want/need to out there wouldn't bypassing part of the course to shorten it or get around a tough section constitute a DNF? Not trying to be an ass or tell you what you can or cant do, I was just under this impression.
    You are correct. That would not be the course we are doing and would constitute a DNF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Are you are referring to turning left off of Desert Park Trail and riding up the double track to TT, bypassing Windgate all together? I'd prefer that route too.
    In retrospect, probably should have done it this way - just to keep us off Windgate. But it is what it is. There's always next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    You are correct. That would not be the course we are doing and would constitute a DNF.



    In retrospect, probably should have done it this way - just to keep us off Windgate. But it is what it is. There's always next year.
    I don't mind riding through the Windgate pass - at least it is possible to make it through there without a HAB (unless you riding SS ! .
    Then you reconnect through Dixie to Pembo to the mapped route.
    The route back through Prospector to Bell is also doable without HAB, may require stops and rest but it's rideable.

    Going up TT has sections with mandatory HAB, if anyone cleared that trail from Windgate to top, they are a GOD. I hate HAB because it ruins my hundred dolla' shoes.

    So please, for next year when comes to route planning - hurt my legs, destroy my spirit, shred my tires and test my will....but don't ruin my shoes !

    Half-joking, half-serious.
    Last edited by metalaficionado; 12-11-2013 at 01:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    I don't mind riding through the Windgate pass - at least it is possible to make it through there without a HAB (unless you riding SS ! .
    Then you reconnect through Dixie to Pembo to the mapped route.
    The route back through Prospector to Bell is also doable without HAB, may require stops and rest but it's rideable.

    Going up TT has sections with mandatory HAB, if anyone cleared that trail from Windgate to top, they are a GOD. I hate HAB because it ruins my hundred dolla' shoes.

    So please, for next year when comes to route planning - hurt my legs, destroy my spirit, shred my tires and test my will....but don't ruin my shoes !

    Half-joking, half-serious.
    Good HAB shoes are as much a part of AES as GPS, sketchy routes, and barbed wire fences. I expect there to be a good amount of cursing (at me) on the way up Toms Thumb AND on the way down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    Good HAB shoes are as much a part of AES as GPS, sketchy routes, and barbed wire fences. I expect there to be a good amount of cursing (at me) on the way up Toms Thumb AND on the way down.
    I agree that HAB is part of AES when one is too exhausted to go on or one is a silly rabbit on a singlespeed. I also get that inclusion of poorly developed, HAB only trails is unavoidable in the remote areas.

    I do beg to differ, my dear AES colleague, on choosing least bike-hospitable trail in a network of other more bike friendly trails. If we include HAB by design in the route, why not add a rock walls we have to scale, lakes we have to swim through or dense bamboo forests where we have to carve our way with machetes?

    All I am saying it's a slippery slope

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    I agree that HAB is part of AES when one is too exhausted to go on or one is a silly rabbit on a singlespeed. I also get that inclusion of poorly developed, HAB only trails is unavoidable in the remote areas.

    I do beg to differ, my dear AES colleague, on choosing least bike-hospitable trail in a network of other more bike friendly trails. If we include HAB by design in the route, why not add a rock walls we have to scale, lakes we have to swim through or dense bamboo forests where we have to carve our way with machetes?

    All I am saying it's a slippery slope
    Ooh, all good ideas. We'll have to look at some of that for future races.

    Tom's Thumb is tough. And it pretty much guarantees HAB. Personally, I hate going up Tom's Thumb. That being said, it is a trail that everyone should do at least once. It is super cool up there on top. Besides, without difficult obstacles like that it may as well be part of the MBAA series.

    You need to do APC in January. You'll LOVE Painter Boy - bring that machete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    it is a trail that everyone should do at least once. It is super cool up there on top. Besides, without difficult obstacles like that it may as well be part of the MBAA series. .
    the rest of this course is long and not easy, but nothing 'signature'. TT offers the 3 hardest descents in the whole system to go with the climb. I enjoy the nervous anticipation before every descent off it and the in-your-face prospect of the climb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    Ooh, all good ideas. We'll have to look at some of that for future races.

    Tom's Thumb is tough. And it pretty much guarantees HAB. Personally, I hate going up Tom's Thumb. That being said, it is a trail that everyone should do at least once. It is super cool up there on top. Besides, without difficult obstacles like that it may as well be part of the MBAA series.

    You need to do APC in January. You'll LOVE Painter Boy - bring that machete.
    He's doing the Gila100... or at least better be.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I figured since they have a doggie drinking fountain they might have a hose bib somewhere I didnt see. Figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
    Hose, err horse bib can be found here:

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-browns-ranch-water.jpg

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    He's doing the Gila100... or at least better be.
    Will see how the knees feel, still not 100% about McD's. Although I can easily bail from that route if I have to. Gila 100, not so much.

  90. #90
    DFL>DNF>DNS
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    Will see how the knees feel, still not 100% about McD's. Although I can easily bail from that route if I have to. Gila 100, not so much.
    Gila100 is super easy to bail from, you make the call and the SAG wagon comes to pick up your remains.
    I ride the crappy trails so you don't have to
    My Two Schillingsworth

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    Gila100 is super easy to bail from, you make the call and the SAG wagon comes to pick up your remains.
    The funny thing is, that's pretty much what happened last year when Nancy bailed.

  92. #92
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    if you didn't want her back it would have cost a lot more

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    Gila100 is super easy to bail from, you make the call and the SAG wagon comes to pick up your remains.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    still not 100% about McD's.
    don't bail! i need someone to follow down TT, though likely you will be a bit ahead of me.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    don't bail! i need someone to follow down TT, though likely you will be a bit ahead of me.
    just make sure your rear wheel is less grippy than the front and it breaks loose easily - and you will be fine

  96. #96
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    i have a Don Miguel burrito that has been in my freezer for 2 months after a bikepack. i think it has aged well. Anyone want it, the dog still won't eat it.

  97. #97
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    What a great day to spend riding bikes around. Thanks to all who came out and made this a successful ride.

    Results are UP!
    AES Results | Arizona Endurance Series

  98. #98
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    Looking forward to some ride reports!

  99. #99
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    A great day on a bike! I keep forgetting this is a race.

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-img_1030.jpg
    Wow, those mountains are really far away.

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-img_1032.jpg
    Steady as she goes, up the hills.

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-img_1036.jpg
    Dinner with a view.

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-img_1037.jpg
    Final approach to Scottsdale.

    AES McDowell 70 roll call-img_1038.jpg
    Sonoran sunset.

  100. #100
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    Don't stay out until 130 drinking wine and leave your CarboRocket: HalfEvil at home...
    AES McDowell 70 roll call-image.jpg

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