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  1. #1
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    4/23: Help support FR/DH/Gravity (whatever you wanna call it) riding in Northern AZ!!

    Join Flagstaff Biking Organization on April 23rd, Saturday evening for a presentation and discussion on the ins-and-outs and future of freeride, downhill and park riding in the Flagstaff area at the Zane Grey Ballroom in the Weatherford Hotel. (Thanks to the Weatherford for graciously donating this space.) We want to take the opportunity of Chris and Leslie, the Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crew, being in town to have them talk a bit about IMBA’s experience, Flagstaff Biking and the Flagstaff Gravity Riders will talk about things we are pursuing and the Forest Service and Coconino County will give a little of their perspective. We all want to hear from you as well about what you might be hoping to see on the ground, and if you have questions about what is being done to legitimize this type of riding in Flagstaff. Please make an effort to attend and show your support for this form of riding to local land managers!

    Also, come out that day to the Subaru/IMBA Trail Care Crew trail building school and trail work!

    See here for more details.

    http://flagstaffbiking.org/2011/04/1...-construction/
    Last edited by Paul B; 04-18-2011 at 09:41 AM. Reason: added date to title

  2. #2
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    traildoc is not welcome and yeah we will be there

  3. #3
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    Bumping for stoke!!!!

  4. #4
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    I always use gravity when I ride........

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by azphxrider
    traildoc is not welcome and yeah we will be there
    az:

    In the old days IMBA would come to where I lived and all the rangers would go to the meeting to try and explan why they weren't going to allow any new trails being built. That is always the perfect time to go out and complete all the trail improvements that they wouldn't give the OK for.

    Fortunately the FS has decided if they keep me busy with projects they approve I can improve the Sedona user experience and they can keep an eye on me. Win Win Situation.

    TD

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    az:

    In the old days IMBA would come to where I lived and all the rangers would go to the meeting to try and explan why they weren't going to allow any new trails being built. That is always the perfect time to go out and complete all the trail improvements that they wouldn't give the OK for.

    Fortunately the FS has decided if they keep me busy with projects they approve I can improve the Sedona user experience and they can keep an eye on me. Win Win Situation.

    TD
    Please list these FS-approved projects.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Please list these FS-approved projects.

    Completed Projects:

    Oak Creek Trail Rebuild across Form Buddah Beach
    Tea Cup Reroute
    Jordan Trail Re-route Study
    Templeton Steep Climb Out-Sloping and Trail Improvement
    2.7 mile Aerie Trail Build (60 hours)
    Anaconda Hydrology Study
    Snake Hydrology Study
    Touron Hyrdrology Study
    Mescal Hydrology Study
    Chuck Wagon Hydrology Study
    Chavez Road/Ridge Trail Ramp Build
    Forest Service Loop Map and Narrative Project
    Aerie Signage Project
    Mescal Reroute Alignment
    Sugar Loaf Loop Feasability Study
    Chuck Wagon/Mescal Connector Feasability Study
    Lost Watch Hydrology Study


    Future Projects:

    Munds Jackhammer Project
    Two Fences Ramp Installation
    Anaconda Insect Study

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Completed Projects:

    Oak Creek Trail Rebuild across Form Buddah Beach
    Tea Cup Reroute
    Jordan Trail Re-route Study
    Templeton Steep Climb Out-Sloping and Trail Improvement
    2.7 mile Aerie Trail Build (60 hours)
    Anaconda Hydrology Study
    Snake Hydrology Study
    Touron Hyrdrology Study
    Mescal Hydrology Study
    Chuck Wagon Hydrology Study
    Chavez Road/Ridge Trail Ramp Build
    Forest Service Loop Map and Narrative Project
    Aerie Signage Project
    Mescal Reroute Alignment
    Sugar Loaf Loop Feasability Study
    Chuck Wagon/Mescal Connector Feasability Study
    Lost Watch Hydrology Study


    Future Projects:

    Munds Jackhammer Project
    Two Fences Ramp Installation
    Anaconda Insect Study

    Hey TD...what specifically are you doing on those "hydrology studies"? Are you at least anecdotally aware of any results on those? That seemed to be the RR Districts big environmental concern on those trail adoptions...just curious how that all is going. Thanks.

  9. #9
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    Do we really need to poison this thread with all this silly bickering?

    I'm bumping it for STOKE.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Do we really need to poison this thread with all this silly bickering?

    I'm bumping it for STOKE.
    Yeah...y'all go fight in yer own thread!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Hey TD...what specifically are you doing on those "hydrology studies"? Are you at least anecdotally aware of any results on those? That seemed to be the RR Districts big environmental concern on those trail adoptions...just curious how that all is going. Thanks.
    A:

    The studys on those trails I am helping with are pretty much good to go except for some minor sustainability issues with Chuck Wagon and the potential re-route of the northwest end of Mescal. There may also be a small re-route of Mescal due to pottery chards near an old Jeep Road.

    I understand Highline will need to be widened on the narrow sections so it has issues.

    May understanding is that the lead hydrologist is so busy with large FS property permit renewals that the approval process slowed down but moving forward.

    I am going out next week for the insect survey on Anaconda.

    Hope you get a good turn out for the IMBA event.

    TD

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the update!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Completed Projects:

    Oak Creek Trail Rebuild across Form Buddah Beach
    Tea Cup Reroute
    Jordan Trail Re-route Study
    Templeton Steep Climb Out-Sloping and Trail Improvement
    2.7 mile Aerie Trail Build (60 hours)
    Anaconda Hydrology Study
    Snake Hydrology Study
    Touron Hyrdrology Study
    Mescal Hydrology Study
    Chuck Wagon Hydrology Study
    Chavez Road/Ridge Trail Ramp Build
    Forest Service Loop Map and Narrative Project
    Aerie Signage Project
    Mescal Reroute Alignment
    Sugar Loaf Loop Feasability Study
    Chuck Wagon/Mescal Connector Feasability Study
    Lost Watch Hydrology Study


    Future Projects:

    Munds Jackhammer Project
    Two Fences Ramp Installation
    Anaconda Insect Study

    TD after all we've been through, you're still going to bring a jackhammer to the trail? won't that scare the tourists and animals?

  14. #14
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    TD,

    I appreciate the reply.
    Please stay the hell away from SoMo and FLG for god's sake.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail-Shredder
    TD after all we've been through, you're still going to bring a jackhammer to the trail? won't that scare the tourists and animals?
    I second that. I propose a study be done on the impact of jackhammering noise levels on the surrounding wildlife. Is said jackhammer battery operated? If not we'll also need to study the impact of gas powered machines used to power your jackhammer.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    A:

    The studys on those trails I am helping with are pretty much good to go except for some minor sustainability issues with Chuck Wagon and the potential re-route of the northwest end of Mescal. There may also be a small re-route of Mescal due to pottery chards near an old Jeep Road.

    I understand Highline will need to be widened on the narrow sections so it has issues.

    May understanding is that the lead hydrologist is so busy with large FS property permit renewals that the approval process slowed down but moving forward.

    I am going out next week for the insect survey on Anaconda.

    Hope you get a good turn out for the IMBA event.

    TD
    Thanks, as always, for all your hard work. You are more than welcomed here in Flagstaff. I was going to have some trail building friends over for a BBQ later in the summer and would love to see you here. I could show you some completed projects. This morning I was headed over to work to borrow a jackhammer to help break apart some burried boulders in my yard. We have both gas powered and electric. It's funny, you reminded me of Flagstaff's many organized trail work days. It's when many of the "other" trail builders head out to do construction, figuring they won't be discovered. I accidentally road onto one of their trails last year and saw they didn't even hide their tools when they left for the day.

    For all the free-riders and down-hillers riding in Flagstaff, why not ask the FS to just turn Heart Trail over to you to update into the fastest, longest, more exciting downhill run in town? You can shuttle up Elden Lookout Road to within 100 feet of Sunset Trail, ride down the Catwalk to where Heart Trail drops steeply off the mountain, and ride it 3 miles to the parking lot at highway 89. There are some opportunities to build some fun teeter-totters across the dry ravines near where Christmas Tree Trail meets Sandy Seep. Heart Trail is too steep for anyone to ride up it so you will never need to slow and yield to anyone. I figured that trail would have been turned into a downhill run years ago.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Yeah...y'all go fight in yer own thread!
    I only just heard about the ACE crew's work assignment on Lower Oldham. Was surprised to hear they are only working in that one spot. The one spot where last years race was routed to go uphill, causing no damage to the trail. Yet they are not working in any of the sections where the racers were flying into corners and skidding to scrub off speed, cutting deep ruts. Will they have time to clean out and rebuild some grade dips above and below that center section? I rode the whole trail a week ago and saw there has been some improvements done. If it was the mobile trail crew, thank them, they did good work.

    When you and Sean and Matt and Tyler walked the section Tyler will be working on, did you consider just using the new bypass trail (Tikka Masala) as the new route? It totally avoids the steep section and skirts it, allowing uphill riders to recover a bit before heading up the second half of Lower Oldham. What the ACE crew will be doing is, in your words, putting lipstick on a pig. Even they told me the trail needs a total reroute, which is already built and being used by many.

    I approve of the work they will do because I like having two options, but I was under the impression that because the race caused so much trail damage last year and Absolute Bikes was unable to keep their promise to make repairs afterwards, and the monsoon rains made the damages even worse, you were able to get grant money from IMBA to pay someone else (A.C.E.) to do the repairs that Absolute Bikes was suppose to do. But rather than repair the trail damages, they are being sent to work on the one section of trail the racers were walking their bikes up and not damaging. Hard to figure out why. Who made the decision to work their since Sean and I walked the trail after the race and agreed where the repairs needed to take place. Also, is Absolute Bikes (or FBO, I get the two confused) planning to sponsor another race on Lower Oldham this year? If so, can you simply reverse the course and have the riders go up Lower Oldham so they can't tear it apart? It will save you and IMBA several thousand dollars. Donka.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by azphxrider
    traildoc is not welcome and yeah we will be there
    Attidudes like this are not welcome. Trail doc has done a good service for MTB riding in N. AZ. If you do not like his on-line persona, then don't reply to his posts, but as far as extending trail building expertise to Flagstaff Gravity, his passion and volunteer attitudes are more than welcome. Maybe you should re-think your position and realize that afterall, this is just the F%$King internet and you cannot ride your bike on MTBR. Just mine and several other locals .02
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son

    I approve of the work they will do because I like having two options, but I was under the impression that because the race caused so much trail damage last year and Absolute Bikes was unable to keep their promise to make repairs afterwards, and the monsoon rains made the damages even worse, you were able to get grant money from IMBA to pay someone else (A.C.E.) to do the repairs that Absolute Bikes was suppose to do. But rather than repair the trail damages, they are being sent to work on the one section of trail the racers were walking their bikes up and not damaging. Hard to figure out why. Who made the decision to work their since Sean and I walked the trail after the race and agreed where the repairs needed to take place. Also, is Absolute Bikes (or FBO, I get the two confused) planning to sponsor another race on Lower Oldham this year? If so, can you simply reverse the course and have the riders go up Lower Oldham so they can't tear it apart? It will save you and IMBA several thousand dollars. Donka.
    Lots of unsubstantiated allegations here TPS. Show some evidence of said damage than just words; otherwise it just sounds like you have an axe to grind. Surely if you walked the trail after the race with Sean you took some pictures. I'm not buying what you're dishing. You just hate the idea of mtb racing in your backyard.
    Last edited by rockman; 04-17-2011 at 04:39 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I only just heard about the ACE crew's work assignment on Lower Oldham. Was surprised to hear they are only working in that one spot. The one spot where last years race was routed to go uphill, causing no damage to the trail. Yet they are not working in any of the sections where the racers were flying into corners and skidding to scrub off speed, cutting deep ruts. Will they have time to clean out and rebuild some grade dips above and below that center section? I rode the whole trail a week ago and saw there has been some improvements done. If it was the mobile trail crew, thank them, they did good work.

    When you and Sean and Matt and Tyler walked the section Tyler will be working on, did you consider just using the new bypass trail (Tikka Masala) as the new route? It totally avoids the steep section and skirts it, allowing uphill riders to recover a bit before heading up the second half of Lower Oldham. What the ACE crew will be doing is, in your words, putting lipstick on a pig. Even they told me the trail needs a total reroute, which is already built and being used by many.

    I approve of the work they will do because I like having two options, but I was under the impression that because the race caused so much trail damage last year and Absolute Bikes was unable to keep their promise to make repairs afterwards, and the monsoon rains made the damages even worse, you were able to get grant money from IMBA to pay someone else (A.C.E.) to do the repairs that Absolute Bikes was suppose to do. But rather than repair the trail damages, they are being sent to work on the one section of trail the racers were walking their bikes up and not damaging. Hard to figure out why. Who made the decision to work their since Sean and I walked the trail after the race and agreed where the repairs needed to take place. Also, is Absolute Bikes (or FBO, I get the two confused) planning to sponsor another race on Lower Oldham this year? If so, can you simply reverse the course and have the riders go up Lower Oldham so they can't tear it apart? It will save you and IMBA several thousand dollars. Donka.

    where have we heard this before.....hrmmmm...it's almost like the same exact thing was said on this forum last year by TPS.....and perhaps even before that, by TPS.......

    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????

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    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????[/QUOTE]

    What!?! Skinny Tire uses AC at 81 degrees!!!! That son of a...............JK.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    Lots of unsubstantiated allegations here TPS. Show some evidence of said damage than just words; otherwise it just sounds like you have an axe to grind. Surely if you walked the trail after the race with Sean you took some pictures. I'm not buying what you're dishing. You just hate the idea of mtb racing in your backyard.
    You can call Sean or Anthony to confirm most/all info. I asked, begged Absolute to run the race uphill on Lower Oldham last year because I didn't think it would be damaged with racers riding up it. I walked the trail before the race and after the race and took pictures before, during and after the race. I may still have those photos if I sent them to photo bucket, otherwise they may have been lost when my hard drive crashed. Sean was aware of the damages and told me Absolute had been working with a FS staff prior to the race and had promised to send their people out to make needed repairs. Sadly, Sean assigned a desk jockey to be the liaison with Absolute and he never viewed the course and had no idea what it looked like before the race or after. Therefore, the FS was not going to put much presure on Absolute to keep their word. As monsoon rains came, they made minor ruts in our trails much deeper, especially in the burn areas. By seasons end there had still been no attempt to repair Lower Oldham. Next thing I hear is that Anthony contacted IMBA and got a grant they offered for trail maintenance. He planned to use it to pay someone else to do the trail maintenance he had promised Absolute would do. I know this because he contacted my employer and said he wanted them to do trail maintenance on Lower Oldham using IMBA money. I sort of liked the idea. It would have been even better if I was running the crew doing the work since I knew exactly where the worst damage occurred. But I have other work to do this week. Go ride up Lower Oldham Later this week and you can see the work being done. ACE, the FS (Sean) and Anthony walked a small portion of the trail that someone decided to be the part to be worked on. Oddly, it is the one section that riders had no impact on. You know, it's the section just past the middle junction, about halfway down Lower Oldham, where the trail goes steeply uphill for about 400 meters. During the race I watched a lot of riders dismount their bikes and walk, run them uphill. If you ride the trail, you must have already tried out the alternate route that skirts that steep section and rejoins Lower Oldham a couple hundred yards downhill from the top of that climb.

    Oddly, in years past, when IMBA was in town and walked this exact section of trail ACE will be making improvements to, Antony and I, who were among the many locals to also view that trail and listen to IMBA's suggestions, disagreed on ever improving the section. Anthony preferred a complete reroute and said trying to do imporvements to the existing trail was putting lipstick on a pig. I agreed the best option was a reroute and was glad to see the new reroute built a couple years ago by one of Flagstaff's many intrepid trail builders. But knowing it can take many years to get approval and funding for a trail reroutes, I felt the steep section should get a bunch of very deep grade dips to route as much water off of it as possible, to prevent it from becoming a 14 foot wide mess that much of Lower Oldham was becoming in the late 90's.

    I didn't think I was making any particular allegations. Just keeping some public presure on the people who are now the major players in the trail building scene in Flagstaff, hoping that might ensure you and I get the best they have and they keep their promises.

    There is a quickly changing scene in Flagstaff. You have seen me go after some users and tangle with some specific riders on this forum. I have had to step back and rethink my position entirely. After meeting Trail Doc and getting to ride some of his favorite new trails in Sedona, I have come to a new understanding of what is possible. They probably could care less but I will now support and embrace folks like Raising Arizona and sinatorj. They really seem to get it. RA has spoken out in support of what is happening in Sedona and made great arguments for flowing trails that are fun to ride, along with other more challenging trails that have more than just hikers steps to provide the challenge. These guys are going to determine what type of trails get built in Flagstaff. Bike shops like Absolute know how fast this segment of riders is growing and are organizing meetings like next weekends as what I see to be a smart business decision. They stand to make bank on sales to this growing group of riders. I can see mostly upside to this development. More trails for them and less traffic on trails I ride most, with connector trails we may both want to share. Nobody loses. Plus, we have a group of very skilled motorized users building fantastic new trails using little more than their tires and some horsepower. Upper Dodfood is beloved by all, yes? The connector between the top of Lower Moto and Rocky Moto was long overdo and allows us to stay off the pipeline. I'm hoping they will consider adding another trail from near the top of FR 164b, where the trail could cross over it going downhill towards highway 180 and then weave around and cross 164b again, just where Lower Fort Valley (we desperately need to name all the trails in Fort Valley, don't you think) trailhead is located. My wish list is getting shorter.

    One last thing. When you show up for your first volunteer trail day, be sure to remind the FS that they told bike shops and many others, they are going to reroute Lower Brookbank. I thought they would start last year, just like they said they would build the new trail out the back of Buffalo Park last year, but the fire pushed things back. When that happens, they can forget their promises if not reminded by the general public.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    where have we heard this before.....hrmmmm...it's almost like the same exact thing was said on this forum last year by TPS.....and perhaps even before that, by TPS.......

    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????
    I know this all seems like some disfunctional reality show but you must believe this; I support what Anthony is doing for Flagstaff riders. He and his shop have become the major players in deciding what gets on the calendar each summer. Almost everything they do is exactly what I would be doing if I were in his shoes. He is an adept politician, something I stink at. He can keep motorized users happy and is involved in providing opportunities for freeriders and dowenhillers. He is not easy to work with but neither am I. He and I are best kept apart. If you look at over achievers andf type A folks in any field, you will find they share some attributes that make people uncomfortable. The more you know about people like Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, plus others like them, you realize they were driven to perform at a level with no regard to how they got there or what others thought of them. Trail Doc, myself, and Anthony may share some of the attributes that others find less than charming.

    Those heavily involved in what gets done out in the woods will always have their own take on how others fight the good fight. I'm getting to the point where I will no longer lead crews, with a few exceptions. I like the freedom of volunteering and doing spontaneous work during rides. It is stress free. What Anthony is doing requires a lot of time and patience. I admire his dedication, even if from time to time I question his motivation as a bike shop manager who alienated almost all other bike shops in town in order to be recognized as the folks only shop to call the shots. I think we could have gotten more done each year with more shops invited to the party. But thats water under the bridge. He is running FBO and runs it well. I even told him he made the correct decision to fire me from running the FBO mobile trail crew last year after I criticized Absolute's choice to run the race on Lower Oldham. It was a bad fit and he would have questioned everything I would have done. No different tham me if our roles were reversed. So don't get me wrong. I support him and his work. I just want to treat him like we treated Russia during the cold war. Trust but verify. I need more transparency, especially on a trail I personally invested over 500 hours of my life maintaining.

  24. #24
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    first of all, prodigal, you know the 'oldham got trashed by the race' saw is worn out. the only place that got hurt on oldham during the race last year was the top section where everyone walked... too many shoes slogging uphill. there's your damage. otherwise, you've got nothing. you know it. you were wrong. the race hurt oldham no more than any other of a million individual summer days of riding that that crappy trail's been forced to endure over the years. it was an accidental trail from the beginning and its fate rests in that fact alone. no one will ever save lower oldham, nor will any harm come to it beyond that that it must, by its nature, endure.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I agreed the best option was a reroute and was glad to see the new reroute built a couple years ago by one of Flagstaff's many intrepid trail builders
    really? still going with 'someone else rerouted the trail' as a tactic. why? why not just own up, prodigal? night ranger's a cool trail. unnecessary. sure. indulgent. absolutely. but cool. indeed. i ride it several days each week. i say: credit where credit is due. everyone knows who/when/why it's there. take a bow. [round of applause]
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  25. #25
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    oh, and rockman gets yet another star. that's gotta make an even dozen by now. a new world record!
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    where have we heard this before.....hrmmmm...it's almost like the same exact thing was said on this forum last year by TPS.....and perhaps even before that, by TPS.......

    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????
    Speaking of which, WTF was up with the weather this weekend? Was it hella hot, or was it just me?

    (Dude, you do know the biggest difference between me and TPS is that I'm doing it in jest, correct. TPS, I'm afraid to say, it sincere in his ranting.)
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I know this all seems like some disfunctional reality show but you must believe this; I support what Anthony is doing for Flagstaff riders. He and his shop have become the major players in deciding what gets on the calendar each summer. Almost everything they do is exactly what I would be doing if I were in his shoes. He is an adept politician, something I stink at. He can keep motorized users happy and is involved in providing opportunities for freeriders and dowenhillers. He is not easy to work with but neither am I. He and I are best kept apart. If you look at over achievers andf type A folks in any field, you will find they share some attributes that make people uncomfortable. The more you know about people like Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, plus others like them, you realize they were driven to perform at a level with no regard to how they got there or what others thought of them. Trail Doc, myself, and Anthony may share some of the attributes that others find less than charming.

    Those heavily involved in what gets done out in the woods will always have their own take on how others fight the good fight. I'm getting to the point where I will no longer lead crews, with a few exceptions. I like the freedom of volunteering and doing spontaneous work during rides. It is stress free. What Anthony is doing requires a lot of time and patience. I admire his dedication, even if from time to time I question his motivation as a bike shop manager who alienated almost all other bike shops in town in order to be recognized as the folks only shop to call the shots. I think we could have gotten more done each year with more shops invited to the party. But thats water under the bridge. He is running FBO and runs it well. I even told him he made the correct decision to fire me from running the FBO mobile trail crew last year after I criticized Absolute's choice to run the race on Lower Oldham. It was a bad fit and he would have questioned everything I would have done. No different tham me if our roles were reversed. So don't get me wrong. I support him and his work. I just want to treat him like we treated Russia during the cold war. Trust but verify. I need more transparency, especially on a trail I personally invested over 500 hours of my life maintaining.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    You can call Sean or Anthony to confirm most/all info. I asked, begged Absolute to run the race uphill on Lower Oldham last year because I didn't think it would be damaged with racers riding up it. I walked the trail before the race and after the race and took pictures before, during and after the race. I may still have those photos if I sent them to photo bucket, otherwise they may have been lost when my hard drive crashed. Sean was aware of the damages and told me Absolute had been working with a FS staff prior to the race and had promised to send their people out to make needed repairs. Sadly, Sean assigned a desk jockey to be the liaison with Absolute and he never viewed the course and had no idea what it looked like before the race or after. Therefore, the FS was not going to put much presure on Absolute to keep their word. As monsoon rains came, they made minor ruts in our trails much deeper, especially in the burn areas. By seasons end there had still been no attempt to repair Lower Oldham. Next thing I hear is that Anthony contacted IMBA and got a grant they offered for trail maintenance. He planned to use it to pay someone else to do the trail maintenance he had promised Absolute would do. I know this because he contacted my employer and said he wanted them to do trail maintenance on Lower Oldham using IMBA money. I sort of liked the idea. It would have been even better if I was running the crew doing the work since I knew exactly where the worst damage occurred. But I have other work to do this week. Go ride up Lower Oldham Later this week and you can see the work being done. ACE, the FS (Sean) and Anthony walked a small portion of the trail that someone decided to be the part to be worked on. Oddly, it is the one section that riders had no impact on. You know, it's the section just past the middle junction, about halfway down Lower Oldham, where the trail goes steeply uphill for about 400 meters. During the race I watched a lot of riders dismount their bikes and walk, run them uphill. If you ride the trail, you must have already tried out the alternate route that skirts that steep section and rejoins Lower Oldham a couple hundred yards downhill from the top of that climb.

    Oddly, in years past, when IMBA was in town and walked this exact section of trail ACE will be making improvements to, Antony and I, who were among the many locals to also view that trail and listen to IMBA's suggestions, disagreed on ever improving the section. Anthony preferred a complete reroute and said trying to do imporvements to the existing trail was putting lipstick on a pig. I agreed the best option was a reroute and was glad to see the new reroute built a couple years ago by one of Flagstaff's many intrepid trail builders. But knowing it can take many years to get approval and funding for a trail reroutes, I felt the steep section should get a bunch of very deep grade dips to route as much water off of it as possible, to prevent it from becoming a 14 foot wide mess that much of Lower Oldham was becoming in the late 90's.

    I didn't think I was making any particular allegations. Just keeping some public presure on the people who are now the major players in the trail building scene in Flagstaff, hoping that might ensure you and I get the best they have and they keep their promises.

    There is a quickly changing scene in Flagstaff. You have seen me go after some users and tangle with some specific riders on this forum. I have had to step back and rethink my position entirely. After meeting Trail Doc and getting to ride some of his favorite new trails in Sedona, I have come to a new understanding of what is possible. They probably could care less but I will now support and embrace folks like Raising Arizona and sinatorj. They really seem to get it. RA has spoken out in support of what is happening in Sedona and made great arguments for flowing trails that are fun to ride, along with other more challenging trails that have more than just hikers steps to provide the challenge. These guys are going to determine what type of trails get built in Flagstaff. Bike shops like Absolute know how fast this segment of riders is growing and are organizing meetings like next weekends as what I see to be a smart business decision. They stand to make bank on sales to this growing group of riders. I can see mostly upside to this development. More trails for them and less traffic on trails I ride most, with connector trails we may both want to share. Nobody loses. Plus, we have a group of very skilled motorized users building fantastic new trails using little more than their tires and some horsepower. Upper Dodfood is beloved by all, yes? The connector between the top of Lower Moto and Rocky Moto was long overdo and allows us to stay off the pipeline. I'm hoping they will consider adding another trail from near the top of FR 164b, where the trail could cross over it going downhill towards highway 180 and then weave around and cross 164b again, just where Lower Fort Valley (we desperately need to name all the trails in Fort Valley, don't you think) trailhead is located. My wish list is getting shorter.

    One last thing. When you show up for your first volunteer trail day, be sure to remind the FS that they told bike shops and many others, they are going to reroute Lower Brookbank. I thought they would start last year, just like they said they would build the new trail out the back of Buffalo Park last year, but the fire pushed things back. When that happens, they can forget their promises if not reminded by the general public.
    ... Now Protical son gets it. Hope to get a chance to meet ya some day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I know this all seems like some disfunctional reality show but you must believe this; I support what Anthony is doing for Flagstaff riders. He and his shop have become the major players in deciding what gets on the calendar each summer. Almost everything they do is exactly what I would be doing if I were in his shoes. He is an adept politician, something I stink at. He can keep motorized users happy and is involved in providing opportunities for freeriders and dowenhillers. He is not easy to work with but neither am I. He and I are best kept apart. If you look at over achievers andf type A folks in any field, you will find they share some attributes that make people uncomfortable. The more you know about people like Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, plus others like them, you realize they were driven to perform at a level with no regard to how they got there or what others thought of them. Trail Doc, myself, and Anthony may share some of the attributes that others find less than charming.

    Those heavily involved in what gets done out in the woods will always have their own take on how others fight the good fight. I'm getting to the point where I will no longer lead crews, with a few exceptions. I like the freedom of volunteering and doing spontaneous work during rides. It is stress free. What Anthony is doing requires a lot of time and patience. I admire his dedication, even if from time to time I question his motivation as a bike shop manager who alienated almost all other bike shops in town in order to be recognized as the folks only shop to call the shots. I think we could have gotten more done each year with more shops invited to the party. But thats water under the bridge. He is running FBO and runs it well. I even told him he made the correct decision to fire me from running the FBO mobile trail crew last year after I criticized Absolute's choice to run the race on Lower Oldham. It was a bad fit and he would have questioned everything I would have done. No different tham me if our roles were reversed. So don't get me wrong. I support him and his work. I just want to treat him like we treated Russia during the cold war. Trust but verify. I need more transparency, especially on a trail I personally invested over 500 hours of my life maintaining.

    fair enough

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    With all of TPS's huffing and puffing bitterness, I'm glad he said some good things about the hard work put in and didnt completely bomb this modivating thread for everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    There is a quickly changing scene in Flagstaff. You have seen me go after some users and tangle with some specific riders on this forum. I have had to step back and rethink my position entirely. After meeting Trail Doc and getting to ride some of his favorite new trails in Sedona, I have come to a new understanding of what is possible. They probably could care less but I will now support and embrace folks like Raising Arizona and sinatorj. They really seem to get it. RA has spoken out in support of what is happening in Sedona and made great arguments for flowing trails that are fun to ride, along with other more challenging trails that have more than just hikers steps to provide the challenge. These guys are going to determine what type of trails get built in Flagstaff.
    TPS I take back 35% of the things I've said about you on the internet.

  33. #33
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    If anyone in Phoenix wants to get a free ride to Flag for the meeting on saturday night...PM me!!! We've got 14 spots to fill with Phoenician shredders to show our support for FGRO!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob
    If anyone in Phoenix wants to get a free ride to Flag for the meeting on saturday night...PM me!!! We've got 14 spots to fill with Phoenician shredders to show our support for FGRO!!!
    Thanks Bob! I look forward to meeting you in person.

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    For anyone curious about the things that Flagstaff Biking Organization and Flagstaff Gravity Riders are pushing for policy-wise, here is a long list of comment letters and such, which is by no means comprehensive, but certainly broadly and thoroughly representative: http://flagstaffbiking.org/documents/

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    the only place that got hurt on oldham during the race last year was the top section where everyone walked.

    the race hurt oldham no more than any other of a million individual summer days of riding that that crappy trail's been forced to endure over the years.

    no one will ever save lower oldham, nor will any harm come to it beyond that that it must, by its nature, endure.
    Who knows more about Lower Oldham trail? You or me? Of the 56 grade dips installed on it since 1997, I built all but three. It's not a question of if the trail was damaged because more people rode it in three hours than would normally ride it in more than a year. It is a matter of the degree of damage. There was no damage on the straightaways, but riders in races tend to accelerate as much as possible before scrubbing off sped as they enter the turns. That's where the ruts cut deep enough to allow water to flow past the grade dip berms during monsoons. There was a four inch deep cut in 90 degree turn located about 400 feet above the pipeline. Once the water flows straight down the trail, it speeds up and pulls sediment along to the next drain and fills it up and allows the next flow to spill over. The ruts created during the race could have been mitigated had promises been kept and Absolute sent it's people out to rebuild berms. By doing nothing for the entire year, it allowed minor trail damage to become much worse when the rains began. To say there was no damage means you believe Anthony should not have hit IMBA up for funding to pay ACE crews to repair the trail. It's utter nonsense. Remember, this is what I have done for the last 15 years. Build sustainable trails and restore trails that are badly failing.

    In 1996, Lower Oldham was 6-14 feet wide on the stretch above the pipeline. Dishing had cause riders to high-side both left and right and triple the width of the trail. My crews made it a single track trail and we kept it a single track trail all these years by keeping up with erosion and flushing out the drains each year. You don't seem to understand what has been done to the trail to keep it in such pristine riding condition. You just ride up and down it and enjoy the fruits of someone elses labor. And now you criticize the person who has allowed you the best possible experience, just so you can defend your co-workers at Absolute and earn their respect. Stick to what you do best, teach grade schoolers how to fail the aims tests and send them racing to the nearest charter school in hopes of salvaging a GED.

    "no one will ever save lower oldham". While you were writing stories for Flagstaff Live, attacking me and my trail crews, someone made a committment to do exactly that, save Lower Oldham and prevent it from becoming a distant memory like Upper Oldham. I've logged over 500 hours on that one trail and have told the FS I'd be willing to officially adopt Lower Oldham, which I unofficially did over a decade ago.

    I don't see what you hope to bring to this discussion. I suppose you can keep showing up at National Trails Day each year and scratch the ground for a couple hours and figure you've done your share for the cause. Whatever. Just try to stay out of the way of people who are putting in long hours to save and preserve the best trails you ride. Your welcome.



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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    Who knows more about Lower Oldham trail? You or me? Of the 56 grade dips installed on it since 1997, I built all but three. It's not a question of if the trail was damaged because more people rode it in three hours than would normally ride it in more than a year. It is a matter of the degree of damage. There was no damage on the straightaways, but riders in races tend to accelerate as much as possible before scrubbing off sped as they enter the turns. That's where the ruts cut deep enough to allow water to flow past the grade dip berms during monsoons. There was a four inch deep cut in 90 degree turn located about 400 feet above the pipeline. Once the water flows straight down the trail, it speeds up and pulls sediment along to the next drain and fills it up and allows the next flow to spill over. The ruts created during the race could have been mitigated had promises been kept and Absolute sent it's people out to rebuild berms. By doing nothing for the entire year, it allowed minor trail damage to become much worse when the rains began. To say there was no damage means you believe Anthony should not have hit IMBA up for funding to pay ACE crews to repair the trail. It's utter nonsense. Remember, this is what I have done for the last 15 years. Build sustainable trails and restore trails that are badly failing.

    In 1996, Lower Oldham was 6-14 feet wide on the stretch above the pipeline. Dishing had cause riders to high-side both left and right and triple the width of the trail. My crews made it a single track trail and we kept it a single track trail all these years by keeping up with erosion and flushing out the drains each year. You don't seem to understand what has been done to the trail to keep it in such pristine riding condition. You just ride up and down it and enjoy the fruits of someone elses labor. And now you criticize the person who has allowed you the best possible experience, just so you can defend your co-workers at Absolute and earn their respect. Stick to what you do best, teach grade schoolers how to fail the aims tests and send them racing to the nearest charter school in hopes of salvaging a GED.

    "no one will ever save lower oldham". While you were writing stories for Flagstaff Live, attacking me and my trail crews, someone made a committment to do exactly that, save Lower Oldham and prevent it from becoming a distant memory like Upper Oldham. I've logged over 500 hours on that one trail and have told the FS I'd be willing to officially adopt Lower Oldham, which I unofficially did over a decade ago.

    I don't see what you hope to bring to this discussion. I suppose you can keep showing up at National Trails Day each year and scratch the ground for a couple hours and figure you've done your share for the cause. Whatever. Just try to stay out of the way of people who are putting in long hours to save and preserve the best trails you ride. Your welcome.

    [/FONT]
    Golly Gee Whiz, I think you might be right. Absolute Bikes must have made tons of dough off the 5,000 racers that showed up and pounded that poor trail for 3 hours (your equivalent of a year's traffic).

    Why don't you install some chicanes on your adopted trail to minimize speed like you did or proposed to do on Upper Oldham when you heard the downhillers were doing maintenance on it?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Who knows more about Lower Oldham trail? You or me? Of the 56 grade dips installed on it since 1997, I built all but three. It's not a question of if the trail was damaged because more people rode it in three hours than would normally ride it in more than a year. It is a matter of the degree of damage. There was no damage on the straightaways, but riders in races tend to accelerate as much as possible before scrubbing off sped as they enter the turns. That's where the ruts cut deep enough to allow water to flow past the grade dip berms during monsoons. There was a four inch deep cut in 90 degree turn located about 400 feet above the pipeline. Once the water flows straight down the trail, it speeds up and pulls sediment along to the next drain and fills it up and allows the next flow to spill over. The ruts created during the race could have been mitigated had promises been kept and Absolute sent it's people out to rebuild berms.
    no. the damage you describe does not exist. not on the grade scale you imagine. perhaps anecdotally, in one place or another, perhaps... but one race last year did little or nothing remarkable to lower oldham. i know this.

    truth is: you want the damage to exist. you need to believe it exists. but i promise you, i know that trail at least as well as you do... perhaps from another perspective... but i can match your 500 hours of work with riding it annually for 20 years, sometime as many as 100 times a year. i know every rock. every one.

    once upon a time, it was nothing more than a game trail, dan. which became a livestock trail. which became a hiking/running trail. which became a bike trail. it was an accident. a happy accident. like so many trails around here. and because of the way it runs, straight uphill, it cannot be saved. it can be patched. mended. unbraided. but you will never fix lower oldham in any sustainable way... not without completely rerouting it... which, as you know, you have largely accomplished with night ranger.

    so, why do you grouse about lower oldham when, with your vast experience trailbuilding, you have to know everything i've already said is true? i can only conclude because there are other axes to grind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    no. the damage you describe does not exist. perhaps anecdotally, in one place or another, perhaps... but one race last year did little or nothing remarkable to lower oldham. i know this.

    i promise you, i know that trail at least as well as you do... i can match your 500 hours of work with riding it annually for 20 years, sometime as many as 100 times a year. i know every rock. every one.

    so, why do you grouse about lower oldham when, with your vast experience trailbuilding, you have to know everything i've already said is true?.
    I remember building several dozen grade dips on Sunset Trail, just below the Hobbit Forest. My previous experience told me they were large enough to last 5-6 years before we'd need to rebuild them. I was wrong. I saw them being torn down in less than two years because of a larger number of aggressive riders using that section for high-speed runs. Once Wasabi was built, it altered the wear patern again, allowing drainage structures to hold up for longer.

    The race on Lower Oldham was poorly routed. If the racers were routed uphill on it, there would not have been a reason to skid into corners. Of course it was a result of how the trail became a trail. It was not designed by a mountain biker and it was poorly suited for fast riding. You accelerate quickly and are forced to slow quickly for a turn, again and again. The chicanes that we built to slow speed from casual riders were forcing high=speed racers to brake even more abruptly. It was their only choice that allowed them to maintain maximum speed and be competative. I don't blame them. It's what a good racer does to win.

    You must be riding Lower Oldham this year. I have been riding it also. You can see that a lot of trail work has been done already. Repairs have been made, apparently for no reason by your thinking. The crew FBO is paying to make more repairs you feel are not necessary, started work a few minues ago.

    The other aspect of trail damage and maintenance is that it can be gradual or rapid in specific places. You can have a few years of gradual damage that reduce a grade dip to a point where one last rut in it causes it to fail. I can ride out on Lower Oldham this morning and find several failing structures. Structures that might have lasted a couple more years if there had been no race. And the race itself was not the problem. The problems were that the race could easily have been routed in the opposite direction. When it wasn't, there was a need to keep a pledge to send people out to make repairs. Those repairs would have been more valuable if done immediately following the race, not a year later. Regardless, the trail will survive because there are several of us out on it frequently, assessing needs and making repairs before damages rise to a level that forces riders to braid and widen the trail.



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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
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    well. all i can say is... on this point, we agree.

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    [QUOTE=rockychrysler]well. all i can say is... on this point, we agree.

    QUOTE]

    Played hooky this afternoon and rode up Lower Oldham. Even stopped to visit with the trail crew and put in an hour of work. It took less than 30 seconds for me to break their pick mattock. Oops. They are doing great work and it will be much easier to ride up that section as one rides down Lower Oldham. I spotted 15 grade dips that have failed and are allowing water to flow past them down the trail. Several more are about a season away from filling with sediment and failing. It is difficult to measure to what extent the race contributed to the failed structures. It might be they would have failed in another year or two anyway. The race just scrubbed a few inches of material off the trail and dumped it into the drains, cutting their useful life by a year or two. That's my professional take based on what I look for every time I ride any trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Join Flagstaff Biking Organization on April 23rd, Saturday evening for a presentation and discussion on the ins-and-outs and future of freeride, downhill and park riding in the Flagstaff area at the Zane Grey Ballroom in the Weatherford Hotel. (Thanks to the Weatherford for graciously donating this space.) We want to take the opportunity of Chris and Leslie, the Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crew, being in town to have them talk a bit about IMBA’s experience, Flagstaff Biking and the Flagstaff Gravity Riders will talk about things we are pursuing and the Forest Service and Coconino County will give a little of their perspective. We all want to hear from you as well about what you might be hoping to see on the ground, and if you have questions about what is being done to legitimize this type of riding in Flagstaff. Please make an effort to attend and show your support for this form of riding to local land managers!

    Also, come out that day to the Subaru/IMBA Trail Care Crew trail building school and trail work!

    See here for more details.

    http://flagstaffbiking.org/2011/04/1...-construction/

    Good turnout last night,meeting was informative and answered all of my questions. Thanks to Anthony,IMBA and all the government agencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    Good turnout last night,meeting was informative and answered all of my questions. Thanks to Anthony,IMBA and all the government agencies.
    I second everything that Elrancho66 said, thanks to everyone that came out, I think it went over very well. Anthony did a tremendous job on the power point presentation and I think a lot of people are feeling positive about the changes and future of this aspect of mountain biking here on the CNF. It's going to take a while but this is going to happen and the riding around here will be better then ever!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    I second everything that Elrancho66 said, thanks to everyone that came out, I think it went over very well. Anthony did a tremendous job on the power point presentation and I think a lot of people are feeling positive about the changes and future of this aspect of mountain biking here on the CNF. It's going to take a while but this is going to happen and the riding around here will be better then ever!
    Just talked with Kubo...our only Phoenix representative to make it. Sounds like the ball is rolling and all agencies are on the same page. Wish I coulda brought more junkies up there, but the timing was bad. What can we do to help support you guys and keep the good things going? Great work guys, sounds like the FS was impressed with the work of the FGRO!!! DH is alive and well in AZ

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    Exciting! Want to present a powerpoint presen on DH/FR here in Prescott? We have MANY that still don't get what a "biking destination" is.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by tls36
    Exciting! Want to present a powerpoint presen on DH/FR here in Prescott? We have MANY that still don't get what a "biking destination" is.............
    Sorry Tom, but I can't resist. Why don't you come to a local trails meeting and actually see what is in the works instead of spouting off. Mountain biking also includes riding a bike uphill too!!!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob
    Just talked with Kubo...our only Phoenix representative to make it. Sounds like the ball is rolling and all agencies are on the same page. Wish I coulda brought more junkies up there, but the timing was bad. What can we do to help support you guys and keep the good things going? Great work guys, sounds like the FS was impressed with the work of the FGRO!!! DH is alive and well in AZ
    Thanks Bob! Sorry you couldn't make it. The trails are on a holding pattern until the NEPA is done. Folks can help out by becoming members of FBO, buying t shirts from the FGR page on flagstaffbiking.org or make donations for the cause by writing checks to FBO for FGR. We are most likely 3 years away at best before we start building, I know it sounds bad but it's going to happen. One good thing is that the CNF agreed not to destroy any current trails on Elden until we get this all figured out. As soon as the trail days are a go you will know, stay tuned and thanks again, Josh

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    Here's the link to IMBA's write up on there visit. Pretty cool!

    ttp://www.imba.com/blog/leslie-and-chris-kehmeier/gravity-good

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    Really positive outlook here, now in the mean time if we can just do a little road maintance riding might just be a little easier. Any interest in some manual labor after the road opens?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

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    pedal-man let me clue you into to how it rolled..... PMBA came to helimech asking him to be part of getting DH trails going up here in P-town many moons ago when PMBA barely existed. For those who don't know, Heli is probably one of the best and most prolific downhillers up here in P-town. Heli and I were stoked and excited about this as we had both built trails with traildoc in Dona. So we joined and signed the forms to be part of trails comittee. Then PMBA sent a crew out to flag out a potential DH run off Prieta Overlook heading down towards Skull Valley area. Heli was never contacted to be part of this and was bummed and I can't blame him. Why did they ask/invite him to be part of their "group", then blow him off? And why did the group they sent not include even ONE downhiller? This would be much akin to having Hans Rey in your bike club and then not seeking or including his advice or input on building a trials area. Doesn't make any sense does it?????? And yes, I climb hills ALL the time, have I any other option up here? Oh well looks like Anthony gets it.............

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