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  1. #1
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    4/23: Help support FR/DH/Gravity (whatever you wanna call it) riding in Northern AZ!!

    Join Flagstaff Biking Organization on April 23rd, Saturday evening for a presentation and discussion on the ins-and-outs and future of freeride, downhill and park riding in the Flagstaff area at the Zane Grey Ballroom in the Weatherford Hotel. (Thanks to the Weatherford for graciously donating this space.) We want to take the opportunity of Chris and Leslie, the Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crew, being in town to have them talk a bit about IMBA’s experience, Flagstaff Biking and the Flagstaff Gravity Riders will talk about things we are pursuing and the Forest Service and Coconino County will give a little of their perspective. We all want to hear from you as well about what you might be hoping to see on the ground, and if you have questions about what is being done to legitimize this type of riding in Flagstaff. Please make an effort to attend and show your support for this form of riding to local land managers!

    Also, come out that day to the Subaru/IMBA Trail Care Crew trail building school and trail work!

    See here for more details.

    http://flagstaffbiking.org/2011/04/1...-construction/
    Last edited by Paul B; 04-18-2011 at 08:41 AM. Reason: added date to title

  2. #2
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    traildoc is not welcome and yeah we will be there

  3. #3
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    Bumping for stoke!!!!

  4. #4
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    I always use gravity when I ride........

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by azphxrider
    traildoc is not welcome and yeah we will be there
    az:

    In the old days IMBA would come to where I lived and all the rangers would go to the meeting to try and explan why they weren't going to allow any new trails being built. That is always the perfect time to go out and complete all the trail improvements that they wouldn't give the OK for.

    Fortunately the FS has decided if they keep me busy with projects they approve I can improve the Sedona user experience and they can keep an eye on me. Win Win Situation.

    TD

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    az:

    In the old days IMBA would come to where I lived and all the rangers would go to the meeting to try and explan why they weren't going to allow any new trails being built. That is always the perfect time to go out and complete all the trail improvements that they wouldn't give the OK for.

    Fortunately the FS has decided if they keep me busy with projects they approve I can improve the Sedona user experience and they can keep an eye on me. Win Win Situation.

    TD
    Please list these FS-approved projects.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Please list these FS-approved projects.

    Completed Projects:

    Oak Creek Trail Rebuild across Form Buddah Beach
    Tea Cup Reroute
    Jordan Trail Re-route Study
    Templeton Steep Climb Out-Sloping and Trail Improvement
    2.7 mile Aerie Trail Build (60 hours)
    Anaconda Hydrology Study
    Snake Hydrology Study
    Touron Hyrdrology Study
    Mescal Hydrology Study
    Chuck Wagon Hydrology Study
    Chavez Road/Ridge Trail Ramp Build
    Forest Service Loop Map and Narrative Project
    Aerie Signage Project
    Mescal Reroute Alignment
    Sugar Loaf Loop Feasability Study
    Chuck Wagon/Mescal Connector Feasability Study
    Lost Watch Hydrology Study


    Future Projects:

    Munds Jackhammer Project
    Two Fences Ramp Installation
    Anaconda Insect Study

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Completed Projects:

    Oak Creek Trail Rebuild across Form Buddah Beach
    Tea Cup Reroute
    Jordan Trail Re-route Study
    Templeton Steep Climb Out-Sloping and Trail Improvement
    2.7 mile Aerie Trail Build (60 hours)
    Anaconda Hydrology Study
    Snake Hydrology Study
    Touron Hyrdrology Study
    Mescal Hydrology Study
    Chuck Wagon Hydrology Study
    Chavez Road/Ridge Trail Ramp Build
    Forest Service Loop Map and Narrative Project
    Aerie Signage Project
    Mescal Reroute Alignment
    Sugar Loaf Loop Feasability Study
    Chuck Wagon/Mescal Connector Feasability Study
    Lost Watch Hydrology Study


    Future Projects:

    Munds Jackhammer Project
    Two Fences Ramp Installation
    Anaconda Insect Study

    Hey TD...what specifically are you doing on those "hydrology studies"? Are you at least anecdotally aware of any results on those? That seemed to be the RR Districts big environmental concern on those trail adoptions...just curious how that all is going. Thanks.

  9. #9
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    Do we really need to poison this thread with all this silly bickering?

    I'm bumping it for STOKE.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Do we really need to poison this thread with all this silly bickering?

    I'm bumping it for STOKE.
    Yeah...y'all go fight in yer own thread!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Hey TD...what specifically are you doing on those "hydrology studies"? Are you at least anecdotally aware of any results on those? That seemed to be the RR Districts big environmental concern on those trail adoptions...just curious how that all is going. Thanks.
    A:

    The studys on those trails I am helping with are pretty much good to go except for some minor sustainability issues with Chuck Wagon and the potential re-route of the northwest end of Mescal. There may also be a small re-route of Mescal due to pottery chards near an old Jeep Road.

    I understand Highline will need to be widened on the narrow sections so it has issues.

    May understanding is that the lead hydrologist is so busy with large FS property permit renewals that the approval process slowed down but moving forward.

    I am going out next week for the insect survey on Anaconda.

    Hope you get a good turn out for the IMBA event.

    TD

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the update!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Completed Projects:

    Oak Creek Trail Rebuild across Form Buddah Beach
    Tea Cup Reroute
    Jordan Trail Re-route Study
    Templeton Steep Climb Out-Sloping and Trail Improvement
    2.7 mile Aerie Trail Build (60 hours)
    Anaconda Hydrology Study
    Snake Hydrology Study
    Touron Hyrdrology Study
    Mescal Hydrology Study
    Chuck Wagon Hydrology Study
    Chavez Road/Ridge Trail Ramp Build
    Forest Service Loop Map and Narrative Project
    Aerie Signage Project
    Mescal Reroute Alignment
    Sugar Loaf Loop Feasability Study
    Chuck Wagon/Mescal Connector Feasability Study
    Lost Watch Hydrology Study


    Future Projects:

    Munds Jackhammer Project
    Two Fences Ramp Installation
    Anaconda Insect Study

    TD after all we've been through, you're still going to bring a jackhammer to the trail? won't that scare the tourists and animals?

  14. #14
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    TD,

    I appreciate the reply.
    Please stay the hell away from SoMo and FLG for god's sake.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail-Shredder
    TD after all we've been through, you're still going to bring a jackhammer to the trail? won't that scare the tourists and animals?
    I second that. I propose a study be done on the impact of jackhammering noise levels on the surrounding wildlife. Is said jackhammer battery operated? If not we'll also need to study the impact of gas powered machines used to power your jackhammer.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    A:

    The studys on those trails I am helping with are pretty much good to go except for some minor sustainability issues with Chuck Wagon and the potential re-route of the northwest end of Mescal. There may also be a small re-route of Mescal due to pottery chards near an old Jeep Road.

    I understand Highline will need to be widened on the narrow sections so it has issues.

    May understanding is that the lead hydrologist is so busy with large FS property permit renewals that the approval process slowed down but moving forward.

    I am going out next week for the insect survey on Anaconda.

    Hope you get a good turn out for the IMBA event.

    TD
    Thanks, as always, for all your hard work. You are more than welcomed here in Flagstaff. I was going to have some trail building friends over for a BBQ later in the summer and would love to see you here. I could show you some completed projects. This morning I was headed over to work to borrow a jackhammer to help break apart some burried boulders in my yard. We have both gas powered and electric. It's funny, you reminded me of Flagstaff's many organized trail work days. It's when many of the "other" trail builders head out to do construction, figuring they won't be discovered. I accidentally road onto one of their trails last year and saw they didn't even hide their tools when they left for the day.

    For all the free-riders and down-hillers riding in Flagstaff, why not ask the FS to just turn Heart Trail over to you to update into the fastest, longest, more exciting downhill run in town? You can shuttle up Elden Lookout Road to within 100 feet of Sunset Trail, ride down the Catwalk to where Heart Trail drops steeply off the mountain, and ride it 3 miles to the parking lot at highway 89. There are some opportunities to build some fun teeter-totters across the dry ravines near where Christmas Tree Trail meets Sandy Seep. Heart Trail is too steep for anyone to ride up it so you will never need to slow and yield to anyone. I figured that trail would have been turned into a downhill run years ago.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Yeah...y'all go fight in yer own thread!
    I only just heard about the ACE crew's work assignment on Lower Oldham. Was surprised to hear they are only working in that one spot. The one spot where last years race was routed to go uphill, causing no damage to the trail. Yet they are not working in any of the sections where the racers were flying into corners and skidding to scrub off speed, cutting deep ruts. Will they have time to clean out and rebuild some grade dips above and below that center section? I rode the whole trail a week ago and saw there has been some improvements done. If it was the mobile trail crew, thank them, they did good work.

    When you and Sean and Matt and Tyler walked the section Tyler will be working on, did you consider just using the new bypass trail (Tikka Masala) as the new route? It totally avoids the steep section and skirts it, allowing uphill riders to recover a bit before heading up the second half of Lower Oldham. What the ACE crew will be doing is, in your words, putting lipstick on a pig. Even they told me the trail needs a total reroute, which is already built and being used by many.

    I approve of the work they will do because I like having two options, but I was under the impression that because the race caused so much trail damage last year and Absolute Bikes was unable to keep their promise to make repairs afterwards, and the monsoon rains made the damages even worse, you were able to get grant money from IMBA to pay someone else (A.C.E.) to do the repairs that Absolute Bikes was suppose to do. But rather than repair the trail damages, they are being sent to work on the one section of trail the racers were walking their bikes up and not damaging. Hard to figure out why. Who made the decision to work their since Sean and I walked the trail after the race and agreed where the repairs needed to take place. Also, is Absolute Bikes (or FBO, I get the two confused) planning to sponsor another race on Lower Oldham this year? If so, can you simply reverse the course and have the riders go up Lower Oldham so they can't tear it apart? It will save you and IMBA several thousand dollars. Donka.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by azphxrider
    traildoc is not welcome and yeah we will be there
    Attidudes like this are not welcome. Trail doc has done a good service for MTB riding in N. AZ. If you do not like his on-line persona, then don't reply to his posts, but as far as extending trail building expertise to Flagstaff Gravity, his passion and volunteer attitudes are more than welcome. Maybe you should re-think your position and realize that afterall, this is just the F%$King internet and you cannot ride your bike on MTBR. Just mine and several other locals .02
    29'ers are the scientologists of the MTB world

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son

    I approve of the work they will do because I like having two options, but I was under the impression that because the race caused so much trail damage last year and Absolute Bikes was unable to keep their promise to make repairs afterwards, and the monsoon rains made the damages even worse, you were able to get grant money from IMBA to pay someone else (A.C.E.) to do the repairs that Absolute Bikes was suppose to do. But rather than repair the trail damages, they are being sent to work on the one section of trail the racers were walking their bikes up and not damaging. Hard to figure out why. Who made the decision to work their since Sean and I walked the trail after the race and agreed where the repairs needed to take place. Also, is Absolute Bikes (or FBO, I get the two confused) planning to sponsor another race on Lower Oldham this year? If so, can you simply reverse the course and have the riders go up Lower Oldham so they can't tear it apart? It will save you and IMBA several thousand dollars. Donka.
    Lots of unsubstantiated allegations here TPS. Show some evidence of said damage than just words; otherwise it just sounds like you have an axe to grind. Surely if you walked the trail after the race with Sean you took some pictures. I'm not buying what you're dishing. You just hate the idea of mtb racing in your backyard.
    Last edited by rockman; 04-17-2011 at 03:39 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I only just heard about the ACE crew's work assignment on Lower Oldham. Was surprised to hear they are only working in that one spot. The one spot where last years race was routed to go uphill, causing no damage to the trail. Yet they are not working in any of the sections where the racers were flying into corners and skidding to scrub off speed, cutting deep ruts. Will they have time to clean out and rebuild some grade dips above and below that center section? I rode the whole trail a week ago and saw there has been some improvements done. If it was the mobile trail crew, thank them, they did good work.

    When you and Sean and Matt and Tyler walked the section Tyler will be working on, did you consider just using the new bypass trail (Tikka Masala) as the new route? It totally avoids the steep section and skirts it, allowing uphill riders to recover a bit before heading up the second half of Lower Oldham. What the ACE crew will be doing is, in your words, putting lipstick on a pig. Even they told me the trail needs a total reroute, which is already built and being used by many.

    I approve of the work they will do because I like having two options, but I was under the impression that because the race caused so much trail damage last year and Absolute Bikes was unable to keep their promise to make repairs afterwards, and the monsoon rains made the damages even worse, you were able to get grant money from IMBA to pay someone else (A.C.E.) to do the repairs that Absolute Bikes was suppose to do. But rather than repair the trail damages, they are being sent to work on the one section of trail the racers were walking their bikes up and not damaging. Hard to figure out why. Who made the decision to work their since Sean and I walked the trail after the race and agreed where the repairs needed to take place. Also, is Absolute Bikes (or FBO, I get the two confused) planning to sponsor another race on Lower Oldham this year? If so, can you simply reverse the course and have the riders go up Lower Oldham so they can't tear it apart? It will save you and IMBA several thousand dollars. Donka.

    where have we heard this before.....hrmmmm...it's almost like the same exact thing was said on this forum last year by TPS.....and perhaps even before that, by TPS.......

    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????

  21. #21
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    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????[/QUOTE]

    What!?! Skinny Tire uses AC at 81 degrees!!!! That son of a...............JK.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    Lots of unsubstantiated allegations here TPS. Show some evidence of said damage than just words; otherwise it just sounds like you have an axe to grind. Surely if you walked the trail after the race with Sean you took some pictures. I'm not buying what you're dishing. You just hate the idea of mtb racing in your backyard.
    You can call Sean or Anthony to confirm most/all info. I asked, begged Absolute to run the race uphill on Lower Oldham last year because I didn't think it would be damaged with racers riding up it. I walked the trail before the race and after the race and took pictures before, during and after the race. I may still have those photos if I sent them to photo bucket, otherwise they may have been lost when my hard drive crashed. Sean was aware of the damages and told me Absolute had been working with a FS staff prior to the race and had promised to send their people out to make needed repairs. Sadly, Sean assigned a desk jockey to be the liaison with Absolute and he never viewed the course and had no idea what it looked like before the race or after. Therefore, the FS was not going to put much presure on Absolute to keep their word. As monsoon rains came, they made minor ruts in our trails much deeper, especially in the burn areas. By seasons end there had still been no attempt to repair Lower Oldham. Next thing I hear is that Anthony contacted IMBA and got a grant they offered for trail maintenance. He planned to use it to pay someone else to do the trail maintenance he had promised Absolute would do. I know this because he contacted my employer and said he wanted them to do trail maintenance on Lower Oldham using IMBA money. I sort of liked the idea. It would have been even better if I was running the crew doing the work since I knew exactly where the worst damage occurred. But I have other work to do this week. Go ride up Lower Oldham Later this week and you can see the work being done. ACE, the FS (Sean) and Anthony walked a small portion of the trail that someone decided to be the part to be worked on. Oddly, it is the one section that riders had no impact on. You know, it's the section just past the middle junction, about halfway down Lower Oldham, where the trail goes steeply uphill for about 400 meters. During the race I watched a lot of riders dismount their bikes and walk, run them uphill. If you ride the trail, you must have already tried out the alternate route that skirts that steep section and rejoins Lower Oldham a couple hundred yards downhill from the top of that climb.

    Oddly, in years past, when IMBA was in town and walked this exact section of trail ACE will be making improvements to, Antony and I, who were among the many locals to also view that trail and listen to IMBA's suggestions, disagreed on ever improving the section. Anthony preferred a complete reroute and said trying to do imporvements to the existing trail was putting lipstick on a pig. I agreed the best option was a reroute and was glad to see the new reroute built a couple years ago by one of Flagstaff's many intrepid trail builders. But knowing it can take many years to get approval and funding for a trail reroutes, I felt the steep section should get a bunch of very deep grade dips to route as much water off of it as possible, to prevent it from becoming a 14 foot wide mess that much of Lower Oldham was becoming in the late 90's.

    I didn't think I was making any particular allegations. Just keeping some public presure on the people who are now the major players in the trail building scene in Flagstaff, hoping that might ensure you and I get the best they have and they keep their promises.

    There is a quickly changing scene in Flagstaff. You have seen me go after some users and tangle with some specific riders on this forum. I have had to step back and rethink my position entirely. After meeting Trail Doc and getting to ride some of his favorite new trails in Sedona, I have come to a new understanding of what is possible. They probably could care less but I will now support and embrace folks like Raising Arizona and sinatorj. They really seem to get it. RA has spoken out in support of what is happening in Sedona and made great arguments for flowing trails that are fun to ride, along with other more challenging trails that have more than just hikers steps to provide the challenge. These guys are going to determine what type of trails get built in Flagstaff. Bike shops like Absolute know how fast this segment of riders is growing and are organizing meetings like next weekends as what I see to be a smart business decision. They stand to make bank on sales to this growing group of riders. I can see mostly upside to this development. More trails for them and less traffic on trails I ride most, with connector trails we may both want to share. Nobody loses. Plus, we have a group of very skilled motorized users building fantastic new trails using little more than their tires and some horsepower. Upper Dodfood is beloved by all, yes? The connector between the top of Lower Moto and Rocky Moto was long overdo and allows us to stay off the pipeline. I'm hoping they will consider adding another trail from near the top of FR 164b, where the trail could cross over it going downhill towards highway 180 and then weave around and cross 164b again, just where Lower Fort Valley (we desperately need to name all the trails in Fort Valley, don't you think) trailhead is located. My wish list is getting shorter.

    One last thing. When you show up for your first volunteer trail day, be sure to remind the FS that they told bike shops and many others, they are going to reroute Lower Brookbank. I thought they would start last year, just like they said they would build the new trail out the back of Buffalo Park last year, but the fire pushed things back. When that happens, they can forget their promises if not reminded by the general public.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    where have we heard this before.....hrmmmm...it's almost like the same exact thing was said on this forum last year by TPS.....and perhaps even before that, by TPS.......

    Is this going to turn into a yearly gripe by TPS, aimed at Anthony....similar to Skinny-Tire and his reliance on air-conditioning when it gets above 80 degrees????
    I know this all seems like some disfunctional reality show but you must believe this; I support what Anthony is doing for Flagstaff riders. He and his shop have become the major players in deciding what gets on the calendar each summer. Almost everything they do is exactly what I would be doing if I were in his shoes. He is an adept politician, something I stink at. He can keep motorized users happy and is involved in providing opportunities for freeriders and dowenhillers. He is not easy to work with but neither am I. He and I are best kept apart. If you look at over achievers andf type A folks in any field, you will find they share some attributes that make people uncomfortable. The more you know about people like Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, plus others like them, you realize they were driven to perform at a level with no regard to how they got there or what others thought of them. Trail Doc, myself, and Anthony may share some of the attributes that others find less than charming.

    Those heavily involved in what gets done out in the woods will always have their own take on how others fight the good fight. I'm getting to the point where I will no longer lead crews, with a few exceptions. I like the freedom of volunteering and doing spontaneous work during rides. It is stress free. What Anthony is doing requires a lot of time and patience. I admire his dedication, even if from time to time I question his motivation as a bike shop manager who alienated almost all other bike shops in town in order to be recognized as the folks only shop to call the shots. I think we could have gotten more done each year with more shops invited to the party. But thats water under the bridge. He is running FBO and runs it well. I even told him he made the correct decision to fire me from running the FBO mobile trail crew last year after I criticized Absolute's choice to run the race on Lower Oldham. It was a bad fit and he would have questioned everything I would have done. No different tham me if our roles were reversed. So don't get me wrong. I support him and his work. I just want to treat him like we treated Russia during the cold war. Trust but verify. I need more transparency, especially on a trail I personally invested over 500 hours of my life maintaining.

  24. #24
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    first of all, prodigal, you know the 'oldham got trashed by the race' saw is worn out. the only place that got hurt on oldham during the race last year was the top section where everyone walked... too many shoes slogging uphill. there's your damage. otherwise, you've got nothing. you know it. you were wrong. the race hurt oldham no more than any other of a million individual summer days of riding that that crappy trail's been forced to endure over the years. it was an accidental trail from the beginning and its fate rests in that fact alone. no one will ever save lower oldham, nor will any harm come to it beyond that that it must, by its nature, endure.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I agreed the best option was a reroute and was glad to see the new reroute built a couple years ago by one of Flagstaff's many intrepid trail builders
    really? still going with 'someone else rerouted the trail' as a tactic. why? why not just own up, prodigal? night ranger's a cool trail. unnecessary. sure. indulgent. absolutely. but cool. indeed. i ride it several days each week. i say: credit where credit is due. everyone knows who/when/why it's there. take a bow. [round of applause]
    "Let our people travel light and free on their bicycles." Ed Abbey
    http://www.rockychrysler.com/

  25. #25
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    oh, and rockman gets yet another star. that's gotta make an even dozen by now. a new world record!
    "Let our people travel light and free on their bicycles." Ed Abbey
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