I am planning on getting some more tools. Out of the few I am planning on getting either a truing stand or a spoke tension meter. My question to you is wouldnt it be smarter to get a tension meter and get an exact true (as rim co. give spoke tension requirments) than to get a truing stand, which is more expensive, and get a not so true true, if you know what i am saying.

I am planning on getting some more tools. Out of the few I am planning on getting either a truing stand or a spoke tension meter. My question to you is wouldnt it be smarter to get a tension meter and get an exact true (as rim co. give spoke tension requirments) than to get a truing stand, which is more expensive, and get a not so true true, if you know what i am saying.

The tensiometer is for checking that you have the spokes tight enough. There will be a bit of variation of tension in a true wheel. You can't true a wheel with a tensiometer. Get a truing stand first. I don't have a tensiometer yet myself. I just check by the old spoke tone test. I have taken a wheel by my LBS for checking and they said it was fine. But I do want to get one eventually to be even more consistent in my builds. Of course I really don't know much, I've only rebuilt a couple of wheels so I'm no expert. But I've been truing my wheels for a couple of years with no problems. A good wheel really shouldn't need truing very often anyway.

The tensiometer is for checking that you have the spokes tight enough. There will be a bit of variation of tension in a true wheel. You can't true a wheel with a tensiometer. Get a truing stand first. I don't have a tensiometer yet myself. I just check by the old spoke tone test. I have taken a wheel by my LBS for checking and they said it was fine. But I do want to get one eventually to be even more consistent in my builds. Of course I really don't know much, I've only rebuilt a couple of wheels so I'm no expert. But I've been truing my wheels for a couple of years with no problems. A good wheel really shouldn't need truing very often anyway.

The tension meter is the icing on the cake. I've been building and truing my wheels for only a few years and am still very much a beginner at it, and while I recognize that a tensionometer would be nice to have in the tool box, I don't find it necessary. All you need is to overtighten one spoke (nipple breakage) and undertension one wheel (pinging) and you'll quickly know what's too tight and too loose. Plucking spokes goes a long way towards identifying trouble spots towards the end of the build.

I am planning on getting some more tools. Out of the few I am planning on getting either a truing stand or a spoke tension meter. My question to you is wouldnt it be smarter to get a tension meter and get an exact true (as rim co. give spoke tension requirments) than to get a truing stand, which is more expensive, and get a not so true true, if you know what i am saying.
bottom line is: to built a good wheel you need to be able to quantitatively determine how well tensioned it is. If you are good with your ears, you can figure out the relative tension, but what about absolute tension - you don't want to wind it up till stuff starts to break, and you don't want to go the other way, with spokes unwinding and rims warping all over with undertension. You also need to be able to true the wheel. You don't need a dedicated truing stand for this. Many people just flip their bike upside down and true on the frame.
So both these items are convenience items for the home mechanic, and most would say the truing stand is probably the most useful, and would be the best money spent. I actually bought both tools. The tension gauge is a cool thing to check your work with, you learn a lot. Most of my stuff was undertensioned. There were a few spokes that were out of whack - higher or lower tension. As you suggest, I built a wheel using just the tension gauge, making sure every spoke (on each side) had identical tension to see how close to true this might be. It actually wasn't too bad, about 5mm radially out, and it was really cool to plink that spinning wheel - every spoke a perfect match. It would just be coincidence if it had turned out true - there are too many other factors.

I am planning on getting some more tools. Out of the few I am planning on getting either a truing stand or a spoke tension meter. My question to you is wouldnt it be smarter to get a tension meter and get an exact true (as rim co. give spoke tension requirments) than to get a truing stand, which is more expensive, and get a not so true true, if you know what i am saying.
..."putting the cart before the horse"?

having built 1 wheel using my frame, v-brakes, and a drumstick, i can say i would rather have a tensionmeter (tensionometer?)

Since you are able to use a tension meter to tell what tension the spokes are at, you can then true each spoke to the same tension that the others are at, thus canceling out the need for calipers as all the spokes will have the same tension. It just seems more exact to me, but I dont know anything about wheels so I may end up making a mistake. I am looking at it from a practical point of view.

Since you are able to use a tension meter to tell what tension the spokes are at, you can then true each spoke to the same tension that the others are at, thus canceling out the need for calipers as all the spokes will have the same tension. It just seems more exact to me, but I dont know anything about wheels so I may end up making a mistake. I am looking at it from a practical point of view.

...but like OLAK pointed out, building by tension only will still result in something not quiet perfect -- probably just a product of normal manufacturing tolerances of all the components. But I suppose one could build for even tension then true from there???

Since you are able to use a tension meter to tell what tension the spokes are at, you can then true each spoke to the same tension that the others are at, thus canceling out the need for calipers as all the spokes will have the same tension. It just seems more exact to me, but I dont know anything about wheels so I may end up making a mistake. I am looking at it from a practical point of view.
you are right - in a perfect world, this would work, but it doesn't in reality - a perfectly built wheel in reality will likely have up to a 20% variance in spoke tension on one side in order to maintain its true. I'm not an engineer, but that is the facts. Although I wonder if bulding to equal tension and then adjusting to true might be a reasonable way? Maybe an expert can answer this.

I'm not building wheels, just truing. Does this make a difference??

I'm not building wheels, just truing. Does this make a difference??
you don't need a tension gauge for truing.

you are right - in a perfect world, this would work, but it doesn't in reality - a perfectly built wheel in reality will likely have up to a 20% variance in spoke tension on one side in order to maintain its true. I'm not an engineer, but that is the facts. Although I wonder if bulding to equal tension and then adjusting to true might be a reasonable way? Maybe an expert can answer this.


But how did it turn out radially...and how was the dish ? Interesting experiment OLAK.


I've built plenty of wheels, and i'm constantly learning....but i suffer from old dog syndrome ( i was taught to use the tensiometer late in the build for verification that the spokes were not UNDER proper tension, and fault from collapse )

I believe that attaining an as close to round, perfectly dished, and laterally true wheel is much harder to achieve and should be the primary focus when building a wheel right from the start. Constantly checking the accuracy of those three mediums, and making minor/slow corrections will eventually bring the wheel into it's proper tension. Once you have the wheel shaped to your liking...then add/subtract the proper tension to your liking. Will the tension be perfect from spoke to spoke..obviously not. But it will be very close...



ONE LEGGED, I think what you might find out when you start making corrections under a tensioned wheel, is the possibility of stubborn corrections. But i'm not 100% sure...build a wheel for us Bill, and let us know the outcome will ya ?


later, Chad
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having built 1 wheel using my frame, v-brakes, and a drumstick, i can say i would rather have a tensionmeter (tensionometer?)...whether or not a wheel CAN be built/trued without a truing stand, but whether a person serious enough about building and maintaining their own wheels would really want to put up with doing it that way for long, esp if they have enough money to drop on a truing stand. Maybe my words are spoken from the old school method I learned as well though, of using one's hands and ears to feel and hear the tension. When it comes down to it, a person with enough basic skill could argue either way that the truing stand and the tensiometer are BOTH unecessary.

I'm not building wheels, just truing. Does this make a difference??
Does it have to be "either or"? Park's tensiometer can be bought for around $45. It's not a bad piece of kit.

You can have a wheel that's true, but it won't necessarily stay true for long if there is greatly uneven spoke tension. Variation of about plus or minus 10% tension between spokes is typical for a good wheel build.

Manufacturers don't readily give recommended spoke tension for their rims, and if they do, you can bet the figures will be very conservative (ie less than what the rim can withstand). You can try tensioning by tone, then go to your LBS and have them use a tensiometer so you can compare tone with it and have an idea of what sounds tight enough. I think both a truing stand and a tensiometer are two good investments.

I built a wheel using just the tension gauge, making sure every spoke (on each side) had identical tension to see how close to true this might be. It actually wasn't too bad, about 5mm radially out, and it was really cool to plink that spinning wheel - every spoke a perfect match. It would just be coincidence if it had turned out true - there are too many other factors.
Rim manufacture has a lot to do with it. I found that Sun rims are pretty bad in terms of rim consistency, that is, it's pretty darn hard to get even tension on spokes if you want to have a true rim. Mavics have always been pretty good though, easy to get spoke tension pretty close to one value.

I am planning on getting some more tools. Out of the few I am planning on getting either a truing stand or a spoke tension meter. My question to you is wouldnt it be smarter to get a tension meter and get an exact true (as rim co. give spoke tension requirments) than to get a truing stand, which is more expensive, and get a not so true true, if you know what i am saying.

I've built several wheels using a frame/fork with zip ties. It works just fine for me and you get get the run out just as fine as you want, same as a real truing stand. Just flip it to check dish. No big deal. Where I usually messed up was in the final tensioning. I would go around plucking and phucking unitl I had the whole thing hosed and had to start over. So I opted to get the tensionometer first. I have the Park. It's quick, easy and a helluva lot more accurate than my previous method. I have a truing stand on order at the LBS though. I got the Park TS-7 which includes the dishing tool.

I guess my point is start with which ever tool is going to have the most impact for you.

a perfectly built wheel in reality will likely have up to a 20% variance in spoke tension on one side in order to maintain its true. I'm not an engineer, but that is the facts..

I don't know whether I agree with this statement. I even out my tensions to just about "dead on" with the tone plucking method and then true the wheels. I've no way of measuring final difference percentages but 20% sounds a lot to me. There isn't much difference when I'm done.

I'm using a set of pre-built Mavic Cosmos road wheels that came on a new road bike I just bought. The tonal difference in those wheels is WAY bigger than my final tonal differences. But I'll bet those 24/28 spoked wheels (for my 190lbs) last almost forever.


Although I wonder if bulding to equal tension and then adjusting to true might be a reasonable way? Maybe an expert can answer this.


I'm not an "expert" but I'll answer anyways. That's the way I do it - tune, true, done. It works perfectly and ya can't beat that.

I don't know whether I agree with this statement. I even out my tensions to just about "dead on" with the tone plucking method and then true the wheels. I've no way of measuring final difference percentages but 20% sounds a lot to me. There isn't much difference when I'm done.
I'm using a set of pre-built Mavic Cosmos road wheels that came on a new road bike I just bought. The tonal difference in those wheels is WAY bigger than my final tonal differences. But I'll bet those 24/28 spoked wheels (for my 190lbs) last almost forever.
I'm not an "expert" but I'll answer anyways. That's the way I do it - tune, true, done. It works perfectly and ya can't beat that.
The actual quote is: "A wheel with spokes that are within plus or minus 20% of the wheel’s average spoke tension is generally considered to have acceptable relative tension" from the manual for use of the Park tension gauge. I don't know what my wheels relative tension are, but they are much closer than that. Common sense says that the more even the tension is, the better. Experience has told me that well tensioned wheels are the ones that you never have any problems with, and never seem to have to lay a spoke wrench on. You will also see a thread that I started with regard to the poor quality of build on store bought/mailorder wheels. All I can recommend is that you don't buy them with the expectation that they are well built. And any discount you get via mailorder, add on the cost of checking and retensioning

If I only had one, I would probably get the tensiometer and use my bike as a truing stand. It's not as convenient as using even the worst of the truing stands, but it will get the job done. I'd rather be able to get and keep my spoke tensions as close to even as possible with as true a wheel as I could make it on the bike than just have a perfectly straight and round wheel. It's NOT always the same thing.

Another tool that you really need is a dishing tool. This tool will help you center the rim between the overlocknuts on your hub. Again, you can have a really pretty wheel, straight and round, but it can be WAY off center.

If you haven't done much wheel work, you DO need a tensiometer to true wheels. It's very easy to straighten a wheel and have dangerously imbalanced tensions (taco coming to your bike soon.)

If you do get a truing stand, for shop quality, get the Park TS-2. For a "bargain" stand try the Minoura Workman. I have a Park TS-7 and find it to be slower and it tends to allow dishing errors.

The first tool I recommend you get is Jobst Brandt's book about wheel building. Even if you are just truing wheels, it's good to understand the theory behind how a GOOD wheel is built.

Happy trails,
Bob

If all you are doing is truing a set of wheels which have already been built properly, just get the stand (& a spoke wrench). I have built about 200 wheels and find the tensiometer very valuable for the initial build, but don't use it very often for "repair". When you initially build, the rims have slight imperfections. The builder must decide when to trade between perfectly balanced tension (tensiometer), perfect radial true (truing stand) and perfect lateral true (truing stand). A properly calibrated tensiometer also gives you an absolute value of tension in each spoke. It is hard to put too much tension in a spoke because the nipple will bind and then you round it over with the wrench. Spoke prep and eyelets help prevent this. It is possible to have the tension too high, but you are much more likely to not have enough tension.

After you have used your wheels awhile, the spokes will settle and you will probably deform the rim slightly. In this case use the stand to make small adjustments and bring it back close to true. As long as you are just turning 1/4 or 1/2 turns on the nipples, don't worry about the tension. If you are making whole turns, it's time to take it to the bikeshop to have it checked out and maybe even replace the rim.

I personally don't think you need a fancy stand. Mine is a $50 Minoura and works fine. Since the stand has feelers on both sides, I flip the wheel back and forth to check how well centered it is rather than using a dishing tool.

So in summary I would get a truing stand and spoke wrench first. If money allows, add a tensiometer. If you still have more money, go for a dishing tool also.

I have built probably around 200 or so wheels in the past 15 years. Back in the first 10-15 wheels that I built I was very concerned about the tension. After that I never grabbed it again. Building a wheel that is true and round is more important than having perfectly equal tensioned spokes. I would say just borrow the meter for the first couple of wheels that you build and spend your money on a truing stand. Once you get the feel for the tension needed to build a strong wheel you won't ever use the meter again. Also make sure that you properly seat the spokes into the hubs and use something along the lines of spokeprep.

Just because all the spokes are at the same tension doesn't mean the wheel will be true. So if you can true a wheel without the truing stand then get the tensionthingamajig. If you can't true a wheel without one then get the truing stand first.

It sounds more like you want confirmation for a decision you've already made based on faulty reasoning and incorrect assumptions(eg: truing is done with a tensionthingamajig).

If you are going to be building wheels, get the truing stand. If you are just truing wheels, the bike's brake pads - unless you run discs - can be used to true the wheels. The tensiometer is a handy tool to check your work and can be good for beninners to ensure that you have even tension, which is the key. I've been building wheels for 15 years. I have a truing stand. I have a tensiometer (2 in fact). I rarely use the tensiometers. I use the truing stand all the time to build wheels.

If you get the tensiometer, check the tension on some wheels of yours or your buddies that you know are properly tensioned. Write down the spoke gauge and the reading off the tensiometer for future reference. Sometimes tensiometers provide a chart showing spoke gauge / tension, but to me the recommended tensions seem a bit on the low side.

The comment above about the dishing tool is good advise too. A dishing tool is very handy to have - especially with all the disc wheels where you need proper dish in front and back. But you can also check the dish by flipping the wheel around in the truing stand to make sure it's in the same plane.