Here is some random thoughts in considering having a custom bike built. Lets keep it simple and we are looking at Ti and Steel HT 29er's. This may take Walt to jump in here so in case your listening Walt. Compare a Ti 3-2.5 straight gauge frame to a butted high end steel. IMOP I think a high-end butted steel frame will ride better for sure. Possibly be lighter and stronger than a Ti 3-2.5. Now when you compare cost straight gauge Ti frame can cost up to $1k or more than a butted steel frame. So if you are looking at a straight gauge Ti 3-2.5 the only advantage you are getting is the corrosion protection IMOP. Now when you take Ti to the butted level then the field opens up a little wider and the costs go up also. Take a look at IF's or Seven's price on their butted frames compared to their straight gauge. Unless you really need the corrosion factor in the frame it looks like to me that your money might be better spent on a high-end double butted frame.
Now this is a welding question for all you tech's out there, for I am researching this also.
I know the process for welding Ti and steel is different but what is the actual material used in each to form the beads? I don't think Ti is welded with Ti? I would think that it is welded with simular materials? and isn't the welds the best place for failure to happen? I would like to understand these things a little better. I guess we could start a debate from all of us know it all's? Thoughts?

Depends on the actual tubing used. Diameter, wall thickness. Both make a difference in both types of tubing. My straight gauge Ti Matt Chester rides very differently and better than my butted steel VooDoo or Prestige Concept tubed Rocky Mountain. Lighter than either, too.

Welding melts the metal. Ti is used to weld ti just as aluminum is used for AL and steel for steel.

Your Matt bike will ride considerably better because it was custom built for you. Where the other bikes you mention are production frames that anyone can get at your LBS. I was specifically comparing custom to custom. Also if welding melts the steel or Ti, why is a welding rod used? and what does the material consist of in the welding rod? Then we can go to fillet brazing, material is used in that also?

Your Matt bike will ride considerably better because it was custom built for you. Where the other bikes you mention are production frames that anyone can get at your LBS. I was specifically comparing custom to custom. Also if welding melts the steel or Ti, why is a welding rod used? and what does the material consist of in the welding rod? Then we can go to fillet brazing, material is used in that also?
I have a bias towards steel, but there is no arguing that Ti is the material for the ages. If you want a bike to ride & abuse and generally just not have to worry about it, Ti is the #1 choice. Assuming a well designed frame, there will be no ride qualities discernable to the rider between straight gauge or butted tubing. None.

Butted tubing is not about ride, butted tubing is about weight savings. A butted tube can be thinner in the middle as the stresses are lower there and thick on the ends to give appropriate joint strength while saving significant weight, but with appropriately selected tubing, the ride will be the same. You can play with and compare strengths of different materal, butting profiles, and mass of bicycle tubing here: http://www.anvilbikes.com/tubeCalc.php

Welding, specifically tig welding used to build bicycle frames, makes use of a filler metal. Welding melts both the parent metal and the filler metal. Welding is not brazing. With welding if you do not add the filler metal, you will rob metal from the "parent metal" (what you are welding together) reducing its thickness and strength. The filler metal is generally the same class of material as the parent metal, or very near to it in basic metallurgy. In the bicycle industry, almost all Ti frames, regardless of alloy, are joined using 6al/4v Ti filler wire. For steel bikes, most guys use ER70S2 filler wire which is more or less the universal steel filler material. When I build, I use a filler metal called 880T which is a high strength stainless filler wire. You can read more about joining methods here: http://www.anvilbikes.com/story.php?news_ID=19&catID=3

You can read more about welding here: http://www.anvilbikes.com/story.php?news_ID=22&catID=3

Your Matt bike will ride considerably better because it was custom built for you. Where the other bikes you mention are production frames that anyone can get at your LBS. I was specifically comparing custom to custom. Also if welding melts the steel or Ti, why is a welding rod used? and what does the material consist of in the welding rod? Then we can go to fillet brazing, material is used in that also?
Custom fitting is not the only reason the Chester rides well. The steel bikes ride well, too. Just differently. I am talking ride quality here, not handling. Like I said before, it also depends on what tubes sizes and how they are used. Comparing ti and steel is not apples to apples in the first place.

I you do not think welding melts the metal you need to do some VERY basic research.

Fillet brazing (note brazing - not welding) uses brass filler and does not melt the tubes.

As stated by Shiggy: "I you do not think welding melts the metal you need to do some VERY basic research" Didn't you mean:"I do think welding melts the metal"- I have welded before, about 25 years ago and that was just steel plate, so I have a VERY basic understanding of it. If you read the previous post as I just did you would have understood the joining of bicycle tubes as I do now. Welding rod or wire is basically a filler used to join the tubes together as brazing does also. "My apples to apples" statement was clearly to bring to light two custom hardtails same size, same design, same builder (like maybe "IF" who builds both). Comparing a hand built custom frame to something like a mass produced production frame IMOP is apples to oranges. Not trying to flame a particular bike here just want clear information as I stated.
Try not to be so defensive-

As stated by Shiggy: "I you do not think welding melts the metal you need to do some VERY basic research" Didn't you mean:"I do think welding melts the metal"- I have welded before, about 25 years ago and that was just steel plate, so I have a VERY basic understanding of it. If you read the previous post as I just did you would have understood the joining of bicycle tubes as I do now. Welding rod or wire is basically a filler used to join the tubes together as brazing does also.
This only shows that you do not understand the difference between welding and brazing.

Welding melts the metal being joined and the filler rod/wire of like material together into one homogeneous piece (if done correctly).

Brazing is basically high temp soldering. The materials being joined are heated but not melted. A dissimilar metal is used to bond the tubes together.

"My apples to apples" statement was clearly to bring to light two custom hardtails same size, same design, same builder (like maybe "IF" who builds both). Comparing a hand built custom frame to something like a mass produced production frame IMOP is apples to oranges. Not trying to flame a particular bike here just want clear information as I stated.
Try not to be so defensive-Not meaning to look defensive.
Pointing out that ANY builder worth their salt is going to optimize the tubing dimensions and frame design for the material. Heck, IF and Seven will change the tubing specs in the same material to match the rider's needs.

If we followed your limits and compared aluminum with steel we would say aluminum is too weak and flexy for bike frames. This was the Al rep in the '80s when the Alan road frames used the same tubing dimensions as steel.

Custom fitting is not the only reason the Chester rides well.
Well, after a few months ago I finaly got the all of Ti shards out of my feet, shoes & carpet, I can attest to Matt Chester's ability to custom fit a bicycle for you.
The ride quality is because of his selection of tubing for the rider in question. That is the main reason that he does not make his frames to accept any rear disk mounts--you go figuure it out.
I have had custom steel mtb and road frames and MC 'gift' is well worth the cost and the wait AS long as you want a Single Speed.

Scoty

As stated by Shiggy: "I you do not think welding melts the metal you need to do some VERY basic research" Didn't you mean:"I do think welding melts the metal"- I have welded before, about 25 years ago and that was just steel plate, so I have a VERY basic understanding of it. If you read the previous post as I just did you would have understood the joining of bicycle tubes as I do now. Welding rod or wire is basically a filler used to join the tubes together as brazing does also. "My apples to apples" statement was clearly to bring to light two custom hardtails same size, same design, same builder (like maybe "IF" who builds both). Comparing a hand built custom frame to something like a mass produced production frame IMOP is apples to oranges. Not trying to flame a particular bike here just want clear information as I stated.
Try not to be so defensive-

Shiggy's not being defensive, he's just right and you were wrong. If you have welded in the past and your beads were not penetrating into the joint (melting) you need to turn up the heat (amps). You wern't welding you were just laying a bead. Welding DOES melt the joint if done properly. Not enough heat and you won't penetrate, too much heat and your welds will be undercut.

From a technical dictionary-
"Welding is a process for joining similar metals. Welding joins metals by melting and fusing 1, the base metals being joined and 2, the filler metal applied. Welding employs pinpointed, localized heat input. Most welding involves ferrous-based metals such as steel and stainless steel. Welding covers a temperature range of 1500º F - 3000º F (800ºC - 1635ºC). Weld joints are usually stronger or as strong as the base metals being joined."

To answer some of your original questions.
The weld if done correctly will be stronger than the material around it, but the since the weld is at a joint (stress riser) it will often be the point of failure.

Welding Ti and steel is really not that different at all. The difference being that when Ti is heated it becomes very reactive, so the weld must be well shielded using an inert gas.

Shiggy's not being defensive, he's just right and you were wrong. If you have welded in the past and your beads were not penetrating into the joint (melting) you need to turn up the heat (amps). You wern't welding you were just laying a bead. Welding DOES melt the joint if done properly. Not enough heat and you won't penetrate, too much heat and your welds will be undercut.

From a technical dictionary-
"Welding is a process for joining similar metals. Welding joins metals by melting and fusing 1, the base metals being joined and 2, the filler metal applied. Welding employs pinpointed, localized heat input. Most welding involves ferrous-based metals such as steel and stainless steel. Welding covers a temperature range of 1500º F - 3000º F (800ºC - 1635ºC). Weld joints are usually stronger or as strong as the base metals being joined."

To answer some of your original questions.
The weld if done correctly will be stronger than the material around it, but the since the weld is at a joint (stress riser) it will often be the point of failure.

Welding Ti and steel is really not that different at all. The difference being that when Ti is heated it becomes very reactive, so the weld must be well shielded using an inert gas.
If you looked at DWF's input he corrected and said that both materials are melted to create the bonding, thus the bead. If all you did was melt the tube you would have shortened tubes and big holes. Yes I did weld about 25 years ago and that was plate steel and yes both materials melted to form a bead, so no I am not stupid but from what I used back then to what is used to weld bike tubing is a simular but differnt process. That was using a ARC welder with stick, not what is used on bike tubing. So my only real question in the weld side of my post was what the material in the welder was to join the tubes with. I got that answered. So evidently you and Shiggy have welded bike frames before and have a great deal of knowledge welding and in frame building, thats great when are you guys going to start maketing your frames? Anyway I guess I should have just asked for views on riding a custom butted frame steel bike to a Ti straight gauge frame. Then I wouldn't have to hear your rants on how smart you are!

If you looked at DWF's input he corrected and said that both materials are melted to create the bonding, thus the bead. If all you did was melt the tube you would have shortened tubes and big holes. Yes I did weld about 25 years ago and that was plate steel and yes both materials melted to form a bead, so no I am not stupid but from what I used back then to what is used to weld bike tubing is a simular but differnt process. That was using a ARC welder with stick, not what is used on bike tubing. So my only real question in the weld side of my post was what the material in the welder was to join the tubes with. I got that answered. So evidently you and Shiggy have welded bike frames before and have a great deal of knowledge welding and in frame building, thats great when are you guys going to start maketing your frames? Anyway I guess I should have just asked for views on riding a custom butted frame steel bike to a Ti straight gauge frame. Then I wouldn't have to hear your rants on how smart you are!

You're funny! No one called you dumb. You are just misinformed. Please go back and read your original post. Note the last paragraph, it's where you asked a bunch of questions, ask for peoples thoughts and state you would like to understand these things a bit better. I was just trying to provide some answers, not let you know how smart I am.

what has degraded in to a bit of a rant. I have a custom steel cross bike built by Rick Hunter. I have a 'semi-custom' Ti Hardtail built by Matt Chester almost 5 years ago and a new Moots Smoothhie Ti. I have owned two other high end steel (butted) hardtails. The MC was built at a time when Matt offered 3 sizes he would tweak when necessary, so it was not built for me in the same way that the Hunter was. The Moots is a standard 19" production frame. Comapring my MC to the IF and the Voodoo Bizango, I can safely say that the Ti bike rides better than ANYTHING I have ever been on. The bike feels very compliant vertically, but never feels 'loose'. The Ti frame seems to track better than the steel frames did. That being said, MC has always uilt his frames with a longer than NORBA chainstay. When he built my geared frame, he also used his std 17" chainstays. I feel this adds to the way the bike feels in many ways like a ski entering a turn, you can almost feel the frame 'load-up' as the ski would. I would say that the best thing to do is talk to several frame builders and choose based on what they are trying to achieve with their builds. This may sound silly, but I don;t feel every builder has the same thing in mind. MC is a perfect example of this.

I would also say that as someone who has been spending tooooo much tim eon these boards for the last several years, Shiggy has never struck me as someone who is trying to prove his intelligence. In fact, I would say he's one of the most straightforward regular posters on MTBR. Whatever you choose, your research will pay-off. Enjoy the bike and leave the metal melting to the frame builders.

ben serotta and co. probably has some of the most if not the most knowledge on ride quality, tubing, riders ride desires etc. etc.. heck, they do triple butted steel and ti tubed frames. there tubing is made according to their own design and tech. and is only used by them, (colorado tubing etc.). call them and you will probably find out everything you ever wanted to know. just my two cents. please, no arguements, insults etc. just innocently wanting to help. keep up the good work on the site, this is the best place for info.

ride on

rick

Hrm. Okay. I think I'll leave the pointless, semantic welding arguements to those that think they know what they're talking about, and think it makes a scrap of difference to the buying public. :)

"What's the best material" arguements are largely pointless. As a designer, if you can't design a Ti frame to ride like a steel frame, or don't know how to design in a certain ride quality, such as vertical compliance, drivetrain stiffness etc., then it doesn't matter what the frame is made from. If you can't do that, then you're just designing a average, rote, cookie cutter bike.

From a bike company POV, I'll let you in on a little secret. Modern steels are so hard and such a beyatch to cut and fab, that most of us would rather build in Ti exclusively anyway. Any builder worth their salt backpurges their steel anyway, so the margin in terms of 'what's the difference between steel and Ti?' from a manufacturing POV is in a lot of ways steel is under priced and a PITA.

That's just my opinion, and other company owners feel free to chime in ( or tell me to STFU, which ever comes first ) :D

Hrm. Okay. I think I'll leave the pointless, semantic welding arguements to those that think they know what they're talking about, and think it makes a scrap of difference to the buying public. :)

"What's the best material" arguements are largely pointless. As a designer, if you can't design a Ti frame to ride like a steel frame, or don't know how to design in a certain ride quality, such as vertical compliance, drivetrain stiffness etc., then it doesn't matter what the frame is made from. If you can't do that, then you're just designing a average, rote, cookie cutter bike.

From a bike company POV, I'll let you in on a little secret. Modern steels are so hard and such a beyatch to cut and fab, that most of us would rather build in Ti exclusively anyway. Any builder worth their salt backpurges their steel anyway, so the margin in terms of 'what's the difference between steel and Ti?' from a manufacturing POV is in a lot of ways steel is under priced and a PITA.

That's just my opinion, and other company owners feel free to chime in ( or tell me to STFU, which ever comes first ) :D
Finally an answer that brings straight forward, educated info. Thanks you very much and will take all of your points into consideration.