Just looking for opinions on handheld GPSs. Is there a particular brand which stands out over the other, i.e., Garmin vs. Magellan? I have the first Garmin eTrex model. It's about five years old now. My biggest problem with it has been the sensitivity of the antenna - I get poor results in mountains and forests, so I don't know if I should stick with the same brand.

You're gonna get a lot of differing opinions on this one.. But both Garmin and Magellan make excellent products.. You can get a very good unit for around $200.. Most of the new ones come equipped with WAAS capability, which means sub 3 meter accuracy.. I have found the best prices at The GPS store.. Also check out www.geocaching.com for info on GPS's.

FWIW, I am currently using a Magellan Meridian Gold and am more than satisfied..

I have a Garmin Etrex Venture. It's a little over a year old and I have been more than happy with it. It has served our family well for geocaching and messing around. REI.com has them for $140 USD. http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=9740052&parent_category_rn=4500600&vcat=REI_SSHP_GPS_TOC

Just looking for opinions on handheld GPSs. Is there a particular brand which stands out over the other, i.e., Garmin vs. Magellan?
Very happy with it, especially the wrist-watch format. My conditions (no tree cover) are not very tough, though. I have no experience with other brands or types. I think you'll find the technology has moved along considerably in the last five years and most models will have improved reception and accuracy.

Search here fo GPS. There are a bunch on threads on this topic.

I got the SportTrak Pro (http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=11) and am very happy with it . It is a rugged unit so I don't worry too much taking it on the trails. It is also waterproof - I tested this the first day by holding it in a bucket for five minutes - so I can take it Kayaking too. It has plenty of memory for downloading details of the trails. One drawback is that it does not come with software. Overall I am very happy with the unit.

It has no competition.

If you are looking at another E-Trex because you are unhappy with the reception of your old unit, you probably won't be happy with the new ones either. I have a new E-Trex Vista and am amazed at how bad the reception is in even mild forested areas.

Just looking for opinions on handheld GPSs. Is there a particular brand which stands out over the other, i.e., Garmin vs. Magellan? I have the first Garmin eTrex model. It's about five years old now. My biggest problem with it has been the sensitivity of the antenna - I get poor results in mountains and forests, so I don't know if I should stick with the same brand.

I was going to buy the Garmin eTrex Legend for $169 but I opted for the eTrex Vista for $218 from Amazon just last week - 3 times the memory plus a compass and an altimeter. Unfortunately, SoCal rain has spoiled any riding with it the last few days but so far I'm quite impressed with the features just from driving around wtih it. I also ordered the Metro guide CD that hasn't arrived yet. I'm doing research on Topo software now.

looks like this might be what you are loking for? (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47805889&parent_category_rn=0&vcat=REI_SEARCH) for $550 you must be getting somthing good. plus garmin has a very good reputation.

Most of the lower price models have patch antennas, check the specs for quadlinear or something like that. This feature and the ability to use an external antenna is useful if you need the data and there is problem with tree cover. In Garmin 60 and 76 have these features.

Bought me some software to go with it and it's pretty ridiculous the amount of data you can get. It's sturdy, floats (big for me), and about the size of a standard 2.4 ghz phone. The Pro's strenght lies in its ability to be loaded up with area-specific software. If you don't want to mess with that, prolly should get one with a bigger basemap. I likes me mine and have used a few of those etrax guys and wasn't impressed. And we all know that what I say is pretty much law.

Never owned one. Always bring a compass/map if necessary. No batteries and never been lost.

No sarcasm intended(unless pete reads it ;-)

I use the eTrex Vista and find it's 24 MB perfect to store most of Northern CA street maps and topo maps. The small size and ruggedness allow it to fit nicely on my handlebars while going through rock gardens and crashes.

looks like this might be what you are loking for? (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47805889&parent_category_rn=0&vcat=REI_SEARCH) for $550 you must be getting somthing good. plus garmin has a very good reputation.The newer 60CS and 76CS models have a better antenna reception and color screen (although some eTrex also have color but smaller screens.) But I've done fine with my eTrex, only loosing signal in deep canyons and/or very thick tree cover, which is usually only a small distance. The model mentioned above comes with street and topo software that's otherwise $80 each, so it's not that bad a deal.

Unlike the National Geographic Topo software, that's more a bitmap graphic of the USGS maps, the Garmin Topo software is fully digital using vectors and downloadable to the GPS. I can swap between street maps to find a trail head to Topo to navigate in remote areas. The Metro maps also include points of interest. I can find any bike shop, gas stations, fast food, ATM, or after ride restaurant at the flick of a button.

No a GPS is not essential. But it adds some useful features and fun. So why use a GPS in MTB?
* Navigate remote areas riding solo (that's me a lot) without getting lost (easy to get lost even with map in new remote unsigned areas I go)
* Leave map route with spouse on solo trips.
* Ride many new trails by using web descriptions and computer topo maps to plot trail waypoints before leaving.
* Find the trail head in remote areas using street maps, with distance to trail head shown via a way point previously set by reviewing computer street maps and web descriptions.
* Use Points of Interest to find closest shop to buy broken pedal, forgotten glove,... or just an ATM, gas, or fast food.
* The GPS can show distance yet to go to a trail junction rather than distance gone. A good motivator.
* Distance to junction and compass arrow assure you're going in right direction.
* Change course or find direction in poor trail definition areas (happened twice last week)
* Record Tracks of where you went.
* Record trail junctions for future exploration of new trails at later date. (Found LOTs of great new legal but unmarked trails this way.)
* An altimeter based model can record net climb and altitude profiles for later download
* Use altimeter track data to plot altitude versus distance profile.
* Use only track (no altimeter data needed) and National Geographic Topo! to plot altitude versus distance profile.
* Plot route on topographical map. National Geographic has $20 3D add-on allowing dynamic fly over of 3D topo plot.
* Post profiles and topo plots to threads along with pictures. (See example http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=538790&postcount=119 )
* #1 Reason: Posting Profiles and Topo plots especially annoy Pete :)

I use the eTrex Vista and find it's 24 MB perfect to store most of Northern CA street maps and topo maps. The small size and ruggedness allow it to fit nicely on my handlebars while going through rock gardens and crashes.

Unlike the National Geographic Topo software, that's more a bitmap graphic of the USGS maps, the Garmin Topo software is fully digital using vectors and downloadable to the GPS. I can swap between street maps to find a trail head to Topo to navigate in remote areas. The Metro maps also include points of interest. I can find any bike shop, gas stations, fast food, ATM, or after ride restaurant at the flick of a button.



That's good to hear that the 24MB allows a large area to be loaded into the unit. I ordered the Metroguide CD but it looks like it's scheduled for Monday delivery.

I'm still torn between getting the NG Topo! State Series and the Garmin Topo program. I like that I can load the Garmin maps into the unit but I hear that the topo detail is lacking - along the lines of the 100000:1 USGS maps instead of the 24000:1 maps in NG Topo. Any comments or suggestions re: topo software to go along with my Vista?

That's good to hear that the 24MB allows a large area to be loaded into the unit. I ordered the Metroguide CD but it looks like it's scheduled for Monday delivery.

I'm still torn between getting the NG Topo! State Series and the Garmin Topo program. I like that I can load the Garmin maps into the unit but I hear that the topo detail is lacking - along the lines of the 100000:1 USGS maps instead of the 24000:1 maps in NG Topo. Any comments or suggestions re: topo software to go along with my Vista?I use both Garmin and National Geographic Topos together. In general I use NG TOPO! mostly for presenting nice colorful plots and topos to others, but the Garmin is more useful for plotting courses and viewing tracks.

The National Geographic TOPO! looks completely different from the Garmin Topo. NG TOPO! is a bitmap image in different resolutions. When you go to level 4 map, you actually are shown a different USGS scale map with different features shown. You can actually see the color seam where two different USGS map images were spliced (see example below).

In contrast the Garmin Topo is fully digitized and easier to zoom at different levels. In general the NG TOPO! looks better and has more resolution on the contours. But the Garmin Topo is actually easier to use, expand and zoom and work with for plotting courses and viewing tracks. Oddly, I find for working, the NG TOPO! just gets too cluttered with all the detail that's not needed and it's faster and easier to work from the Garmin. The slightly lower resolution of the Garmin is just right for what I usually need.

The Garmin Topo is also much faster, near instantaneous, to pan and zoom. Whereas the NG TOPO! needs to upload new maps from the CD at nearly every change and is much slower with a several second delay every time you change a view.

I often plan my route based on maps found on the web. The Garmin can expand nicely to show the ridges and streams so I can guess where the trail junctions are located. I've become good at looking at streams and ridge shapes to guess the trail junction within less than 100' in practice. If you expand a NG TOPO! to a small scale to try and figure out where a trail head, the NG TOPO! map just gets big and fuzzy as you "magnify" to 200% on the lowest level 5, but it also works.

One clear advantage of the NG TOPO! is that it allows you to make an altitude profile plot just from a GPS track without altitude recording. That is, it can generate the altitude from position using digital information it embeds in the map image. The disadvantage is that you can get 100' jumps on the edge of a steep hill as small GPS errors make it look like you're jumping off the cliff and climbing back up.

I also find the Garmin Topo works great in combination with the Garmin Metro maps. I can pop between the two maps instantly on the computer to identify street names and locations of trail heads. NG recent 3D topo upgrade includes a street map overlay that helps in this regard.

So if I had to pick one, it would be hard to say since they serve different needs. I'd suggest getting both if you can afford it. But I find the Garmin's Topo is much more usable and a better deal with all US states included, and being downloadable to the GPS. After having become proficient with both, I almost exclusively use the Garmin Topo, and only use the NG TOPO! any more when I want to make a nice presentation of topo plots and altitude profiles.

Here's a summary of differences:
Altitude contour resolution: NG - 50', Garmin - 164' (50 meter) [Both are sufficient]
Maps included: NG - one state for $80, Garmin - Entire USA for $80
Downloadable topo maps to GPS: NG - No, Garmin - Yes
Editing of track points and waypoints (easier with Garmin)
Waypoint and route generation: Routing based on waypoints easier with Garmin, NG has an nice freehand route drawing tool, but you don't want this detailed freehand route for navigation.
Creation of altitude profile plots: National Geographic plot is very nice and generates alitutude from position. Garmin has poor quality plot based on altitude data recovered from GPS
3D topo plots and dynamic Fly-over (option only for NG)


Here's some Topo plots of a Henry Coe ride (near Gilroy, CA). I show the same section of each topo map, with a start of my ride shown in each. Note Pallisou Ridge and Timber Ridge are properly identified in each topo, but in different ways. With NG the label will get bigger and fuzzier as magnified, whereas the Garmin will scale the labels properly. The Garmin also always shows a distance scale at the bottom (not shown in this screen cut out), whereas you have to guess or measure distances with the NG. The vertical distance is about 4 miles on these plots.

Also note that both maps show same biking/hiking trails/fire roads on Pallisou and TImbe Ridges via solid narrow black lines in Garmin, or via dotted lines in NG.

1. Top Figure: Garmin Topo with yellow routes between waypoints, and actual big dotted black line showing track recorded during ride.
2. Bottom Figure: National Geograhpic TOPO! with red track showning track recorded during ride. Note USGS map seam in NG maps.

It has no competition.
I second the punks statement. It has no equal.

What ever GPS you purchase you can get FREE mapware @ jdmcox.com for free.. It does everything the otheres do and covers most of North america.

BigLarry, thanks for the synopsis, you've basically verified a lot of what I've been thinking but I've not seen it written out from experience, just bits and pieces on the 'net. I have an older version (2.7) of NG Topo from a few years ago so I know what you're talking about with the map digitization.

I think I'll get the Garmin software and use it along with my older NG software for a while.

BigLarry, thanks for the synopsis, you've basically verified a lot of what I've been thinking but I've not seen it written out from experience, just bits and pieces on the 'net. I have an older version (2.7) of NG Topo from a few years ago so I know what you're talking about with the map digitization.

I think I'll get the Garmin software and use it along with my older NG software for a while.
Since you alread have the National Geographic TOPO!, you should consider the expansion pack "TOPO! Streets & 3-D Views". It was everything it claimed. It made nice 3D plots (see my previous link for 3D plots I've posted) and added street labels to maps for added information. It will also upgrade your NG TOPO! to version 4.0. You'll need to upgrade your video drivers to DirectX 9 to run the animated fly-overs in 3-D. It's a nice upgrade for only $20.

The Garmin Topo is also much faster, near instantaneous, to pan and zoom. Whereas the NG TOPO! needs to upload new maps from the CD at nearly every change and is much slower with a several second delay every time you change a view.

This isn't neccesary. You can store the TOPO! map data on your hard drive and set TOPO! to use this HD data instead of the CD. I do this and my TOPO! maps pan and appear super fast.

This isn't neccesary. You can store the TOPO! map data on your hard drive and set TOPO! to use this HD data instead of the CD. I do this and my TOPO! maps pan and appear super fast.
Memine, Good Idea - if you got the disk space.

My TOPO! for CA alone is 10 CDs (6 GBytes?). How much memory did your HD take?

Memine, Good Idea - if you got the disk space.

My TOPO! for CA alone is 10 CDs (6 GBytes?). How much memory did your HD take?

Not sure what you mean by "memory". 90% of my important TOPO! maps are in the Tahoe National Forest (I live in Grass Valley). So I just store the Tahoe CD data on my HD and use the TOPO! settings to point to this location on the HD.

BTW, my PC has 1 GB of RAM and 120 GB of disk space.

Not sure what you mean by "memory". 90% of my important TOPO! maps are in the Tahoe National Forest (I live in Grass Valley). So I just store the Tahoe CD data on my HD and use the TOPO! settings to point to this location on the HD.

BTW, my PC has 1 GB of RAM and 120 GB of disk space.
Sorry, I said that wrong. I'm from the old school where a HD is just a different form of memory. I meant "disk space", not memory on the HD. How much disk space did your Tahoe CD take? I suspect around 500 MBytes?

If you store just one CD of data, and happen occasionally to need a CD out of that region, can you re-point to the CD drive in a pop-up menu, or do you need to change the TOPO! settings back momentarially when you're viewing out of the stored regions.

Overall, the approach seems to be a good one. I'll try it.

If you store just one CD of data, and happen occasionally to need a CD out of that region, can you re-point to the CD drive in a pop-up menu,

If the path to the new maps have not been specified by you in TOPO!, it just asks for the appropriate CD.

Free you say? So the 120 bucks I just spend on Garman East was for what?

I had the Garmin Etrex for a while and it was a solid unit, but didn't have the features I wanted, so.....I got the Garmin Etrex Vista and went through about 4 of them....It was fine hiking and in the car, but I would put it on my handlebar and they kept powering down mid ride. Garmin couldn't figure it out....other than the possibility of the battery connection. So I ended up getting a Garmin Etrex VistaC. It has a better battery connection. The color is great and doesn't have the power down problems. It also is autoroute capable.

Free you say? So the 120 bucks I just spend on Garman East was for what?

My guess is that you are referrring to the free "USA Photomaps" program available at jdmcox.com (http://jdmcox.com) . This is a pc based program similar to Topo but the maps and orthophotos are downloaded from Terraserver (free but not the best quality). By Garman East, I expect that you purchased Garmin Mapsource coverage. This is the only way to upload new maps to Garmin mapping gps units.

There has been little mention of some other pc based mapping programs. Maptech Terrain Navigator is my personal favorite. I just like the interface better than Topo. It's functionally about the same. I've seen some good plots out of Expert GPS which is unlike some others the purchase price includes unlimited downloads of both usgs topo maps and orthophotos.

This discussion has helped clarify my own thinking about a new gps unit. I would like a mapping unit but these cost a lot more than the same unit without that feature (compare Gar 60 vs 60C). Then you get the pleasure of purchasing map coverage of limited value except for display on the gps unit for a lot of money. Since my main use for gps is mapping out area trails, the software that I have is plenty good. If you want to upload a route and follow on a map, it's pretty easy to print out that map and use it with the gps.

I have also been hot and cold on a pda/bluetooth solution. This provides a really useful map display and the receiver/antenna can be located in a good spot. The rugged weatherproofness of a handled GPS is tough to beat though. For info on pda/bluetooth check out:
http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/menu_gpshardware3.php
http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/menu_gpshardware3.php
these guys seem to have some good pricing:
http://www.semsons.com/
Cheap pda topo software:
http://www.maptech.com/products/outdoornavigator/index.cfm

Everyone that has a gps should have "USA Photomaps" though. Just about any location in the US you might travel you don't need to buy new coverage.

DS

My biggest problem with it has been the sensitivity of the antenna - I get poor results in mountains and forests, so I don't know if I should stick with the same brand.
I can't help with the sensitivity issue. I use both a Rino and an Extrex and they both work. In So Cal I'm rarely bothered by dense foliage.

Other points:
After using a GPS for a while I stopped loading maps in either unit. Your position relative to way points and your track history is the important issue in exploring. Presumably you prepared for the trip and have a mental picture of the overall terrain and downloaded the waypoints that have some meaning to you. No map in a GPS will have enough detail for step by step movement. It turns out that the features at hand - trail, road, or clearing determine the next step - not a map.

One of the nicer features of Topo! is the database of tracks that users have uploaded to their web site. I used a GPS plot of a cross-country skier's favorite areas to find trails that the summer-time users never see.

I own a Garmin Map 76CS, and I love it. You can download a lot of maps from the MapSource CD's that Garmin has. Yes, the GPS is expensive, and the CD's are too, but the benefits outweigh the cost. I mostly use mine often for work (wetland delineations, endangered species surveys, fish surveys, etc.). Awesome downloading capabilities, waterproff, good battery life, and, most importantly to me, IT FLOATS!!! It can give you sunrise/sunset, moonrise/moonset, and and tide information ANYWHERE in the U.S. I bought a handlebar mount for mine, and, after many crashes, it still works perfectly. It even flew off the roof of my car while going 60 mph down the interstate. It got scratched up, but still works flawlessly.

Beware, though...if you use it TOO often, your sense of direction goes to sh*t.

My guess is that you are referrring to the free "USA Photomaps" program available at jdmcox.com (http://jdmcox.com) . This is a pc based program similar to Topo but the maps and orthophotos are downloaded from Terraserver (free but not the best quality). By Garman East, I expect that you purchased Garmin Mapsource coverage. This is the only way to upload new maps to Garmin mapping gps units.

There has been little mention of some other pc based mapping programs. Maptech Terrain Navigator is my personal favorite. I just like the interface better than Topo. It's functionally about the same. I've seen some good plots out of Expert GPS which is unlike some others the purchase price includes unlimited downloads of both usgs topo maps and orthophotos.

This discussion has helped clarify my own thinking about a new gps unit. I would like a mapping unit but these cost a lot more than the same unit without that feature (compare Gar 60 vs 60C). Then you get the pleasure of purchasing map coverage of limited value except for display on the gps unit for a lot of money. Since my main use for gps is mapping out area trails, the software that I have is plenty good. If you want to upload a route and follow on a map, it's pretty easy to print out that map and use it with the gps.

I have also been hot and cold on a pda/bluetooth solution. This provides a really useful map display and the receiver/antenna can be located in a good spot. The rugged weatherproofness of a handled GPS is tough to beat though. For info on pda/bluetooth check out:
http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/menu_gpshardware3.php
http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/menu_gpshardware3.php
these guys seem to have some good pricing:
http://www.semsons.com/
Cheap pda topo software:
http://www.maptech.com/products/outdoornavigator/index.cfm

Everyone that has a gps should have "USA Photomaps" though. Just about any location in the US you might travel you don't need to buy new coverage.

DS

If you are gonna buy a Garmin map 60c then go through Amazon.com...that's where I found the best prices.

I've got a couple GPSs, all Garmin, all handheld. My first was a Vista, bought for a trip down to the desert for some solo riding. In the open terrain there, it worked beautifully and I was able to use it for backtracking when I got lost and figuring out where I wanted to be with the help of Paul B's awesome book. Because it doesn't get awesome reception under the heavy tree cover here in the northeast, I use it mostly on my road bike to keep track of elevation and route. It also works well in my canoe where waterways tend to have a good skyview.
<img src="http://twilighterror.smugmug.com/photos/14258548-M.jpg">

Because I also use it in my car, I wanted something with a larger screen. So I got a 76S - same 24Mb memory as the Vista, but a much larger screen. The OS isn't as nice as the Vista and take a little more effort to use, but there are two huge advantages to this unit - an external antenna input and an internal voltage convertor (it can take 8-40vdc). On the bike, I have the external antenna mounted to my helmet and my HID battery is rigged to power the GPS. The wires are run through my camelbak out the bottom to a pouch on the waistbelt where I keep the GPS. Easily accessed when I need to see something, and the reception is incredible. Under heavy summer cover, I usually get 10' accuracy. This GPS is about perfect for MTB use. It'll accept Garmin's TOPO24K maps (selected 24k series maps of the US - all the national parks, a good deal of the wilderness areas, and some large state parks), and Metroguide road maps.

For car navigation, I spent the bucks on a 76CS. Didn't go for any of the larger units because I still want portability, and the CS is a good compromise on price, memory and functions. With the City Select maps installed, it'll autoroute anywhere you've got data. I can fit road maps of New England and NY (except NYC/NJ) onto the unit. Its USB connection makes changing maps nearly painless. The interface is improved to a Vista-like display and the features that made the 76 so attractive are retained (external antenna and power).
<img src="http://twilighterror.smugmug.com/photos/14258549-M.jpg">
<img src="http://twilighterror.smugmug.com/photos/14258550-M.jpg">
<img src="http://twilighterror.smugmug.com/photos/14258551-M.jpg">

...eTrex model. It's about five years old now. My biggest problem with it has been the sensitivity of the antenna - I get poor results in mountains and forests, so I don't know if I should stick with the same brand...

The Garmin Rino series has a model that corresponds to each of the eTrex models. The difference is that it includes a walkie talkie function and sports and external antenna instead of the internal patch antenna of the eTrex models. The result is a GPS with better reception along with a way to keep up with your riding buddies if you get dropped. Uh... well... yeah... not that happens to me or anything... :rolleyes:

Anyway...

As far as features go, the aforementioned Garmin 60C and 76C are top of the line, which means they are priced that way. For the value minded, the Rinos cost just a little more than the corresponding eTrex model.

I ended up getting a Garmin eTrex Vista C. Thanks for all your help. I already had the bike mount and like the small size of the unit, so I stuck with Garmin. Having a USB connection was a big plus as well since I no longer have a computer with an older serial port. I just started playing around with it and there are loads of features I'm going to end up spending a lot of time trying to figure out but so far I'm really happy with it.

Also thanks for the link to the free "USA Photomaps" program at jdmcox. com. Works great.