The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

The Short—
THE WARRANTY.
Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2003%20Ellsworth%20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

THE ADVERTISING.
As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

The Long—the rest of the story:
CUSTOMER SERVICE.

First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at warranty@ellsworthbikes.com .

I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: warranty@ellsworthbikes.com

Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to warranty@ellsworthbikes.com.

*Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
*Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2003%20Ellsworth%20WarrCard.pdf);
*Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/Sampling%20of%20Industry%20Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
*Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2004%20Ellsworth%20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

Email me your thoughts: warranty@ellsworthbikes.com

I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,
Tony Ellsworth

Tony- I'm a happy Truth owner who has dealt with a warranty issue and my experience was positive. I will email you at the warranty address but I would like to say a few things in this forum. Bike frames can break no matter how strong they are or how well they are engineered, but it's how the customer is treated when the frame breaks that makes the difference. There have obviously been some people not treated so well and thats the biggest issue here, there are a lot of people that don't trust you or your company and its up to you to change it. I think you should change your warranty to an industry standard like some of the recommendations made on this forum AND beef up your frames a bit and ditch the whole lightest FS frame thing. The ICT design can stand on its own without it having to be the lightest, I use my Truth as a trailbike and it weighs 27lbs. I would think most Truth owners love their bike because it rides so well, not because its the lightest or it has a lifetime warranty. Of course, if you change the warranty, you still need to take care of existing owners who purchased the frame with the lifetime warranty. I wish you luck and I hope my Truth continues to give me years of trouble free riding

The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty


For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

You're not kiddin :D :D :D I think a lot of us are fed up reading same bashing over and over from the same ppl. Readers must be very selective of what they read and believe, especially on MTBR (it's a great site, but there is simply WAAAAAAAAY to much BS floating around).


If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!


I hope you're not seriously thinking about it :mad: :mad: :mad:

Do not let some bad apples spoil the whole crop. I think for a lot us The Warranty was a very strong deciding point when we purchased our first frames.
It would be unfortunate, for some f***ers who took upon themselves to bash your company to death, to rouin it for everyone else. It's one of the things that sets your frames away and ahead of the pack. It would be like slowing down, letting the rest catch up :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:




Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to warranty@ellsworthbikes.com.


Amen to that too :D :D :D

I think for a lot us The Warranty was a very strong deciding point when we purchased our first frames. Tony himself noted that independent studies have shown that the majority of manufacturer defects will show in the first year of use. Providing 2 year warranty will safeguard that almost every manufacturer defect will show before the warranty period expires. After that, it's just leniency of the manufacturer against mis-use. A lifetime warranty may even provoke mis-use!

I think Tony should change his warranty. But in case there are incompatibility issues, Ellsworth should replace the complete frame, not just the broken part. If you look at Specialized or other big players in the bicycle inductry, a broken frame that is no longer in production and of which there are no frames in stock, will be replaced with a similar frame or frame with equivalent value. If Tony is not prepared to do this, I think he should leave the warranty as is. From his sample warranty card, it does not seem like he is willing to do this:"Exclusions: All wear items to include.......or items that do not transfer to new technology replacement frames"This seems to me a way for Tony to not have to replace incompatible parts, which I think all the fuss is about in the first place.

Benefits:
- It will be easier for Ellsworth to fullfill warranty cases because they only need to stock frames and parts for 2 years.
- It will be easier for the customer to get a complete replacement (if necesary) frame without a catch due to incompatibility issues.
- More dealers might be willing to restart supplying Ellsworth bikes, as I read that a lot of them stopped because they thought the customer was being cheated on, or they felt that the frame was just worn-out and they could have sold a new frame iso Ellsworth supplying the customer with a discount on a warranty replacement. Dealers don't like warranty because it ruins their business.

Tony- I'm a happy Truth owner who has dealt with a warranty issue and my experience was positive. I will email you at the warranty address but I would like to say a few things in this forum. Bike frames can break no matter how strong they are or how well they are engineered, but it's how the customer is treated when the frame breaks that makes the difference. There have obviously been some people not treated so well and thats the biggest issue here, there are a lot of people that don't trust you or your company and its up to you to change it. I think you should change your warranty to an industry standard like some of the recommendations made on this forum AND beef up your frames a bit and ditch the whole lightest FS frame thing. The ICT design can stand on its own without it having to be the lightest, I use my Truth as a trailbike and it weighs 27lbs. I would think most Truth owners love their bike because it rides so well, not because its the lightest or it has a lifetime warranty. Of course, if you change the warranty, you still need to take care of existing owners who purchased the frame with the lifetime warranty. I wish you luck and I hope my Truth continues to give me years of trouble free riding

and pay $500 to upgrade to current technology 3 years after i purchased my frame, if it breaks or something... thank you very much Tony.

those who wouldnt accept that are fools. what are they thinking...

and pay $500 to upgrade to current technology 3 years after i purchased my frame, if it breaks or something... thank you very much Tony.

those who wouldnt accept that are fools. what are they thinking...

Yeah, but you are assuming that he is going to live up to that...lol...i know people that have paid around 500 bucks just for new chainstays and rocker arms...you are fooling yourself if you think he's going to let a new truth go for $500 bucks...

Yeah, but you are assuming that he is going to live up to that...lol...i know people that have paid around 500 bucks just for new chainstays and rocker arms...you are fooling yourself if you think he's going to let a new truth go for $500 bucks...

i am not saying it is going to be a new truth. but whatever it is, if it includes shock for example and a triangle or anytning along these lines, i'd be happy...

c'mon, you dont expect that anyone could unconditionally warrant the frame for the lifetime??? the warranty didnt sound like that to me anyway...

but quite frankly, i dont care about the warranty. the truth is one sweet ride and with my scarce spare time, i want to enjoy every single minute of it... if truth brakes, i'll buy something else to entertain me until truth is fixed... maybe even another truth if i am happy with this one.

i know i bought one of the lightest FS frames on the planet. that brings some risk by itself and i accepted that risk. i could have bought some 35 pounds rig and could have been sure i'd never break it... but it is not fun... fun is worth the money for me . anytime...

Everything you said here points to you being a poor consumer that's a saleperson's dream. You'd settle for anything because Tony Ellsworth is your God.

Next, you say "one of the lightest fs frames". Tony says "THE LIGHTEST". So which one is it? he says it is the lightest, so who's lying? Like I said, the Nicolai Saturn is lighter.

I'm waiting for you to threaten to beat me up on this board like you did on the other board.

and i dont have to ask my daddy to give me money for my bikes...

i dont care if it is one of the lightest or the lightest... nicolai who? who cares...

truth is fun and that is all i need. if it stops being fun, i'll buy something else... we'll see...

i dont own an ellsworth ive never personally had much of a liking even for the look of them
i do know that after reading mr ellsworths post he seems to be fair and amicable id be happy with his warranty

i worked for a us manufacturer from 96 onwards and we had plenty back

when i started biking i broke a frame yeah sure it wasnt designed for seious biking but i never told the lbs that id been doing stuff the bike wasnt designed for i was gutted i could see the cost implication straight away and personally tried every trick in the book to get a new one now im pretty sure when this happens there are the doubters in warranty who could just see through the little white lies that accompany these tales of woe but never the less they coughed up a new frame

6 years on i am qualified quite heavily in design engineering and it dawned on me that things break for a reason be it bad design (which is not uncommon these days) fatigue material choice the list is pretty long but usually its down several reasons which are predictable

good engineering design which ellsworth bikes seem to be (in fact most manufacturers these days seem to be respectable in their claims) kind of limit these down to a number of factors which have usually been examined by the good old design folks and are acceptable ie they know how when and what is going to happen when a failure occurs

kind of makes a bit of a mockery when you stand in your local bike shop and say i was just riding along and oh it broke here and here and well its pretty obvious thats not really what happend admittedly there are dodgy bikes you know the ones made at 5 minutes to four on friday just before clocking off but on a whole something doesnt just break
so that leaves the warranty folks with a bit of a dilemma they know how it breaks and why
so in reality they could just say you are telling little white lies instead they offer you a new frame for a reasonable amount of cash to keep your custom(a much wiser move)

the other option is to engineer the product to such a high quality that the manufacturer will know a failure is impossible or to say this has a service life of x hours after that its over they do this with aeroplanes and yes parts still break but because of this most components for a plane costs more than some automobiles

when a big company like specialized for example gets a frame made for anything from 60 to 200 dollars dollars in taiwan and it breaks they have pretty much covered their own back 5 times over with the built in retail price of the bike and can throw new frames at customers however from experience a hand crafted bike made in the usa costs way more than a mass manufactured frame even in waste materials alone so (on top of that ive seen plenty of folks posting on the fact their enduro broke but they dont seem to whine and complain and wriggle to get a new bike they just get a new frame) and are happy folks again

the guys that like to complain are usually the ones who have been unjustly treated (in their opinion)ive been on both ends of the argument

when it boils down to it at least there is a choice being offered in that you can pay a small sum of money for a replacement at the end of the day if the manufacturer was as pedantic as some of the posts in these forums they too could examine every aspect hairline crack circumstance of why the bit broke and im pretty sure could come up wwith 5 reasons why its not covered under warranty and after 6 months and a huge waste of money time and effort youd never buy another bike from manufacturer A and you wouldnt have done much riding that company would have lost another customer and the ever decreasing circle would continue from there

so my vote is on the fact that at least we have a warranty to go to when things go wrong

i stopped complaining years ago now i just ride and accept the inevitable

The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

The Short—
THE WARRANTY.
Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2003%20Ellsworth%20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

THE ADVERTISING.
As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

The Long—the rest of the story:
CUSTOMER SERVICE.

First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at warranty@ellsworthbikes.com .

I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/) see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: warranty@ellsworthbikes.com

Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to warranty@ellsworthbikes.com.

*Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
*Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2003%20Ellsworth%20WarrCard.pdf);
*Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/Sampling%20of%20Industry%20Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
*Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2004%20Ellsworth%20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

Email me your thoughts: warranty@ellsworthbikes.com

I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,
Tony Ellsworth
Thanks Tony for the input! The part of the reply that concerns me refers to the changes made in the 2000(Truth) model. The problems I have read about occurred in 2001. This was after the major change in the frame. I realize that the older frames could not be warrantied because of the technological changes. The problems in the post 2000 frames are what made me decide against the Truth. The "fix" in mid 2003 is a direct result of these problems. This is where I have a problem. The longer shock and different rocker solved the seat tube breaks. Do you think it is fair to the customer who bought one of these frames, that if their frame breaks, they now have to buy a new shock and a rocker because of a "poor design"? You have stated that ride quality and durability improved with the 2003-2004 model change. This is a direct result of the problems. Giant had some issues in the same area. I'm not sure what they did to solve the problem and how they handled the warranty.

Thanks Tony for the input! The part of the reply that concerns me refers to the changes made in the 2000(Truth) model. The problems I have read about occurred in 2001. This was after the major change in the frame. I realize that the older frames could not be warrantied because of the technological changes. The problems in the post 2000 frames are what made me decide against the Truth. The "fix" in mid 2003 is a direct result of these problems. This is where I have a problem. The longer shock and different rocker solved the seat tube breaks. Do you think it is fair to the customer who bought one of these frames, that if their frame breaks, they now have to buy a new shock and a rocker because of a "poor design"? You have stated that ride quality and durability improved with the 2003-2004 model change. This is a direct result of the problems. Giant had some issues in the same area. I'm not sure what they did to solve the problem and how they handled the warranty.

I believe the 2001 seat tube issues were solved the next year in 2002 when they changed the design from a one-piece BB/pivot area and larger box section to a tapered box section and seperate BB/pivot locations. Tony E. states the 2004 design change also helps with the stress, but I don't think it was designed as a fix, more of a suspension upgrade with the lower leverage ratio. I have not heard of any post 2001 front sections breaking, although I'm sure there have been some but not like the '01 model.

The blue Truth is the '01 and the grey is the '03-note the differences in the seat tube and BB areas

if your Truth is fun now, how should it stop being fun??? If it breaks?

And my father was kind enough to help me buy my bike. I chipped in most of the money and he helped me with a few hundred dollars. No shame in that?

agree, no shame. whats your point?


Lets' tally this:

You like to fight and intimidate people.

not really. is that how you feel? why?



You don't like people that have to work, as you pointed out on another thread (while you don't like the gift I got from my father of the difference in money here)

not true. just your assumption. i have to work for living as well.


You don't like people who's parents take care of them and give them gifts once in a while because they get good grades and work really hard.

not true. where did you get that?


You don't like people that talk about EW bikes breaking.

not true. i appreciate all the info we can get about our bikes. i dont appreciate bashing that you are doing.


You can't do math because 60% of $1,995 is $1,197 dollars and that's what you have to pay, not the $500 you think.

not completely true, someone had to pay $500 for the upgrade including the shock. math is my strength. i am electrical engineef by profession.



You don't acknowledge that someone who buys a Truth right off the showroom gets no warranty if the frame is redesigned slightly one month later.

no i dont, because it is not true. have you really read the Ellsworth warranty?


pathetic, osokolo. Take anger management classes.

you think so? no prob. you are entitled to your opinion...

you can't leave it alone, can you, Osokolo. You've proven yourself worng over and over. Just let it rest now.

Yes, you do have anger issues and you did choose to attack me and you continue 2 hours after it was laid to rest on the general board.

Simply leave it out of the board and return to the issues of bikes and the manufacturers. Someone posted a response to you on the general page, so why don't you go and address them.

and lets leave the final verdict on who is right and who is wrong to the members of this forum. i think that is fair.

i also responded to the gentlemen (i suppose) who questioned the warranty on the general board. but you knew the answer before i posted it. the warranty card says:


Warranty: is limited to the repair / replacement of the frame with like technology, model and color without charge. In the event that the model
is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value.

if you dont like it, dont buy Ellsworth, but dont buy Ellsworth without reading the warranty and then complain about the warranty. AFAIC, the manufacturer is honouring what he laid out in his warranty.

please prove me wrong.

I believe the 2001 seat tube issues were solved the next year in 2002 when they changed the design from a one-piece BB/pivot area and larger box section to a tapered box section and seperate BB/pivot locations. Tony E. states the 2004 design change also helps with the stress, but I don't think it was designed as a fix, more of a suspension upgrade with the lower leverage ratio. I have not heard of any post 2001 front sections breaking, although I'm sure there have been some but not like the '01 model.

The blue Truth is the '01 and the grey is the '03-note the differences in the seat tube and BB areas
Thanks for pointing that out as Tony didn't. My point was that this was a problem and as you stated it was fixed in the 2002 model. Now if I had bought a frame in 2000 or 2001 as I almost did, and it broke this year,and Tony was out of the 2002 model frames I would be forced to spend money on a new shock,linkage,and an upgrade charge as "technology has changed".

By the tone of his reply, he doesn't inspire me to go out and buy an Ellsworth. If he tweaks his design and that tweak causes problems and then he "fixes" the design, and then in a year or two tweaks his design again, which gets him out warranty issues, I'm a little concerned. To me, the only thing the warranty is good for is for manufacturing defects which show up in a year usually. Design problems caused by constant change of the design, indicate a problem. No thanks!

Thanks for pointing that out as Tony didn't. My point was that this was a problem and as you stated it was fixed in the 2002 model. Now if I had bought a frame in 2000 or 2001 as I almost did, and it broke this year,and Tony was out of the 2002 model frames I would be forced to spend money on a new shock,linkage,and an upgrade charge as "technology has changed".

By the tone of his reply, he doesn't inspire me to go out and buy an Ellsworth. If he tweaks his design and that tweak causes problems and then he "fixes" the design, and then in a year or two tweaks his design again, which gets him out warranty issues, I'm a little concerned. To me, the only thing the warranty is good for is for manufacturing defects which show up in a year usually. Design problems caused by constant change of the design, indicate a problem. No thanks!

I hear ya!, actually I think the design changes are a good thing AS LONG as he would replace an older design at no charge if the frame breaks. Everyone else seems to be changing their designs also, but they are not forcing the owner to pay for the new technology if the older design breaks-thats bad business and he needs to change that.

Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time.

Sincerely,
Tony Ellsworth
Oh yeah, that's just a peach Tony!

The opinions collected here, by folks that have had dealings with your defective products, your company's poor customer service, and your very own lies, simply can't be "honest."

Thanks for even more laughs Tony, even though they stem from your pathetic responses once again.

now this makes sense to me.


i dont own an ellsworth ive never personally had much of a liking even for the look of them
i do know that after reading mr ellsworths post he seems to be fair and amicable id be happy with his warranty

i worked for a us manufacturer from 96 onwards and we had plenty back

when i started biking i broke a frame yeah sure it wasnt designed for seious biking but i never told the lbs that id been doing stuff the bike wasnt designed for i was gutted i could see the cost implication straight away and personally tried every trick in the book to get a new one now im pretty sure when this happens there are the doubters in warranty who could just see through the little white lies that accompany these tales of woe but never the less they coughed up a new frame

6 years on i am qualified quite heavily in design engineering and it dawned on me that things break for a reason be it bad design (which is not uncommon these days) fatigue material choice the list is pretty long but usually its down several reasons which are predictable

good engineering design which ellsworth bikes seem to be (in fact most manufacturers these days seem to be respectable in their claims) kind of limit these down to a number of factors which have usually been examined by the good old design folks and are acceptable ie they know how when and what is going to happen when a failure occurs

kind of makes a bit of a mockery when you stand in your local bike shop and say i was just riding along and oh it broke here and here and well its pretty obvious thats not really what happend admittedly there are dodgy bikes you know the ones made at 5 minutes to four on friday just before clocking off but on a whole something doesnt just break
so that leaves the warranty folks with a bit of a dilemma they know how it breaks and why
so in reality they could just say you are telling little white lies instead they offer you a new frame for a reasonable amount of cash to keep your custom(a much wiser move)

the other option is to engineer the product to such a high quality that the manufacturer will know a failure is impossible or to say this has a service life of x hours after that its over they do this with aeroplanes and yes parts still break but because of this most components for a plane costs more than some automobiles

when a big company like specialized for example gets a frame made for anything from 60 to 200 dollars dollars in taiwan and it breaks they have pretty much covered their own back 5 times over with the built in retail price of the bike and can throw new frames at customers however from experience a hand crafted bike made in the usa costs way more than a mass manufactured frame even in waste materials alone so (on top of that ive seen plenty of folks posting on the fact their enduro broke but they dont seem to whine and complain and wriggle to get a new bike they just get a new frame) and are happy folks again

the guys that like to complain are usually the ones who have been unjustly treated (in their opinion)ive been on both ends of the argument

when it boils down to it at least there is a choice being offered in that you can pay a small sum of money for a replacement at the end of the day if the manufacturer was as pedantic as some of the posts in these forums they too could examine every aspect hairline crack circumstance of why the bit broke and im pretty sure could come up wwith 5 reasons why its not covered under warranty and after 6 months and a huge waste of money time and effort youd never buy another bike from manufacturer A and you wouldnt have done much riding that company would have lost another customer and the ever decreasing circle would continue from there

so my vote is on the fact that at least we have a warranty to go to when things go wrong

i stopped complaining years ago now i just ride and accept the inevitable

i dont own an ellsworth ive never personally had much of a liking even for the look of them
i do know that after reading mr ellsworths post he seems to be fair and amicable id be happy with his warranty

i worked for a us manufacturer from 96 onwards and we had plenty back

when i started biking i broke a frame yeah sure it wasnt designed for seious biking but i never told the lbs that id been doing stuff the bike wasnt designed for i was gutted i could see the cost implication straight away and personally tried every trick in the book to get a new one now im pretty sure when this happens there are the doubters in warranty who could just see through the little white lies that accompany these tales of woe but never the less they coughed up a new frame

6 years on i am qualified quite heavily in design engineering and it dawned on me that things break for a reason be it bad design (which is not uncommon these days) fatigue material choice the list is pretty long but usually its down several reasons which are predictable

good engineering design which ellsworth bikes seem to be (in fact most manufacturers these days seem to be respectable in their claims) kind of limit these down to a number of factors which have usually been examined by the good old design folks and are acceptable ie they know how when and what is going to happen when a failure occurs

kind of makes a bit of a mockery when you stand in your local bike shop and say i was just riding along and oh it broke here and here and well its pretty obvious thats not really what happend admittedly there are dodgy bikes you know the ones made at 5 minutes to four on friday just before clocking off but on a whole something doesnt just break
so that leaves the warranty folks with a bit of a dilemma they know how it breaks and why
so in reality they could just say you are telling little white lies instead they offer you a new frame for a reasonable amount of cash to keep your custom(a much wiser move)

the other option is to engineer the product to such a high quality that the manufacturer will know a failure is impossible or to say this has a service life of x hours after that its over they do this with aeroplanes and yes parts still break but because of this most components for a plane costs more than some automobiles

when a big company like specialized for example gets a frame made for anything from 60 to 200 dollars dollars in taiwan and it breaks they have pretty much covered their own back 5 times over with the built in retail price of the bike and can throw new frames at customers however from experience a hand crafted bike made in the usa costs way more than a mass manufactured frame even in waste materials alone so (on top of that ive seen plenty of folks posting on the fact their enduro broke but they dont seem to whine and complain and wriggle to get a new bike they just get a new frame) and are happy folks again

the guys that like to complain are usually the ones who have been unjustly treated (in their opinion)ive been on both ends of the argument

when it boils down to it at least there is a choice being offered in that you can pay a small sum of money for a replacement at the end of the day if the manufacturer was as pedantic as some of the posts in these forums they too could examine every aspect hairline crack circumstance of why the bit broke and im pretty sure could come up wwith 5 reasons why its not covered under warranty and after 6 months and a huge waste of money time and effort youd never buy another bike from manufacturer A and you wouldnt have done much riding that company would have lost another customer and the ever decreasing circle would continue from there

so my vote is on the fact that at least we have a warranty to go to when things go wrong

i stopped complaining years ago now i just ride and accept the inevitable

Sounds reasonable enough until you compare Ellsworth to their real competitors: Titus, Turner, Ventana. These companies, like Ellsworth, are selling high priced, US made frames (Titus and Ventana actually build their own frames). Everything you said about Ellsworth vs. the big guys applies to these companies as well. The difference is that Tony Ellsworth has 1) doctored magazine reviews on his company's website then lied about it here on MTBR.com and 2) treated a significant number of customers (myself included) very poorly. The people behind Titus, Turner and Ventana have great reputations for honesty and integrity. The same cannot be said for Ellsworth. To me, it's not about the particulars of the warranty and it's not about the bikes (I liked my Ellsworth a lot). It's about the integrity of the person behind the company name.

Sounds reasonable enough until you compare Ellsworth to their real competitors: Titus, Turner, Ventana. These companies, like Ellsworth, are selling high priced, US made frames (Titus and Ventana actually build their own frames). Everything you said about Ellsworth vs. the big guys applies to these companies as well. The difference is that Tony Ellsworth has 1) doctored magazine reviews on his company's website then lied about it here on MTBR.com and 2) treated a significant number of customers (myself included) very poorly. The people behind Titus, Turner and Ventana have great reputations for honesty and integrity. The same cannot be said for Ellsworth. To me, it's not about the particulars of the warranty and it's not about the bikes (I liked my Ellsworth a lot). It's about the integrity of the person behind the company name.

i am curious what do you think is better in that warranty. they dont warranty rear shock beyond 1 year either. same as Ellsworth. i see nothing in their warranty that is better than Ellsworth warranty.

i know you will probably say that Ells doesnt honour their warranty etc, etc like few members of this forum are saying. i dont really think it is right. 3 years down the road someone expects to have shock replaced as well because rocker arm broke and need to be replaced with the new design one?

again, i'd rather pay a little extra and get new design rocker arm on my bike and buy a new shock than have free old rocker arm and my 3 years old shock...

but that is me... YMMW

i'd still want to know why you think Ventana warranty is better than Ells...

i am curious what do you think is better in that warranty. they dont warranty rear shock beyond 1 year either. same as Ellsworth. i see nothing in their warranty that is better than Ellsworth warranty.

i know you will probably say that Ells doesnt honour their warranty etc, etc like few members of this forum are saying. i dont really think it is right. 3 years down the road someone expects to have shock replaced as well because rocker arm broke and need to be replaced with the new design one?

again, i'd rather pay a little extra and get new design rocker arm on my bike and buy a new shock than have free old rocker arm and my 3 years old shock...

but that is me... YMMW

i'd still want to know why you think Ventana warranty is better than Ells...

I specifically said in my post that it is not about the particulars of the warranty. I do not think Ventana's warranty is better than Ellsworth's. I do think Sherwood Gibson is a better person than Tony Ellsworth.

I specifically said in my post that it is not about the particulars of the warranty. I do not think Ventana's warranty is better than Ellsworth's. I do think Sherwood Gibson is a better person than Tony Ellsworth.

i dont know either one. i was searching for the best bike for my needs. didnt have any intentions to sleep with the owner of the company.

joking aside, i really couldnt care less about who better person is. as long as the manufacturer obeys what the warranty sheet says, they are the best people on the planet. mind you, i dont expect that they replace my shock in three years if the rocker arn needs replacement. maybe that is the difference between the people that regard Ells warranty fair and people that dont.

and that is why it is good to have Ventana, Titus, Turner etc... to each his own...

our goals are the same i hope, and that is to have as much fun on the trails as possible. how we achieve that and what tools we use, it is really unimportant. agree?

I worked in a bike shop (as both a mechanic and Manager) since 1990 up until a year ago. I've owned an Ellsworth (2000 Dare), as well as a Turner (95ish Burner), as well as countless other bikes. I jumped on the FS bandwagon back in '94 when I got my Answer-Manitou FS frame (and of all the bikes I've owned, I think I miss this one the most. Then my 1st generation Yeti Lawill) I'm also still on my '98 Chuck which has broken once and was rewelded, but since the company is now defunct (in fact, defunct since 2001 or so) I hope it doesn't brake again as I really enjoy this bike and don't want to get another. All this said, here's something that I've been thinking about reading these posts...

Not to weigh in for or against Ellsworth, a warranty is only as good as 2 things: 1. how good the company behind the warranty is (and I'll clarify this statement in a bit), and 2. How good the place you got the product (in this case frame) is. Now, being officially out of the bike biz, I do buy most of my stuff Mail order, as you cannot beat price, and I've got enough certifications to know that I'm equally or more qualified to fix a bike than 90% of the bike shop mechanics (I've known a few over the years who can still outfix me, thus the 10%, and I know I don't know everything). But I still maintain a good relationship with my LBS, as when it comes down to it, they will sometimes (I must STRESS SOMETIMES) have more, or at least, extra pull, than the average consumer. At the same time, I've seen enough broken frames through the years, ranging from the Biggest Company (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) to the smallest boutique brand to know that any and every type of bike breaks. I've had warranty experiences that range from unbelievable in a good way(Specialized telling me to give a customer a brand new bike off the floor no questions asked, after said customer dropped 3 grand on a bike only to have it break at a weld 3 months later) to unbelievable in a bad way (a brand new frame coming in and after unwrapping it from the plastic finding a lug not welded, and having the company tell me that I'm wrong, that's not correct, and either the shop or our customer will have to pay to get it fixed (in the end, neither did, but neither the shop nor the customer were happy)-That company starts with a W). I've been able and willing to warranty questionable things because the customer is reasonable, loyal (and loyal to me never meant only buying from us. It meant repeat business, and understandingthat I can't always match a price, but always giving me a shot to come close to match a price, as well as sending me business). I've twisted arms and butted heads with inside warranties guys, some of who have bent over backwards to make things right. Sometimes they can and will go the extra mile. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes great companies have an inside guy who doesn't give a crap and can never see the shop or customer's (and in the end, the shop is really just a customer as well) point of view. Hell, a couple of times I can't see my own customer's point of view. On the other hand, I've loaned out my own personal spare bike to a customer, just to keep them happy, not to make sure I kept them as a customer (of course I did) but because I would want someone to do the same for me. What I'm saying with this ridiculously long rant and still haven't broached the real subject of Ellsworth's (or anyone else for that matter) warranty, is that there can be lots a variables to why something gets warrantied and why it doesn't. As a service manager, though, my belief was simple: if your product failed unreasonably (that is, in a way that clearly is not through abuse) I would've done anything in my power to do the right thing for you the customer.

Now, let me state that I loved my Ellsworth. When it rolled into the shop I didn't need to chase a single thread or face the head or bb. The welds were superb. Granted, it was disc only and they still had your typical slotted, housing stops (that is, you couldn't run a continuous hydro hose, and this was pre Avid discs, and only Hayes had their 1st generation cable actuated discs, so if you ran discs, and again, on this bike you had too, you ran hydros) which made no sense to me and I still never got an good answer for. But it was a sweet ride nonetheless (since sold it to a hopefully happy rider). Still it was pricey, and there is a thing we call planned obsolescence, which the first time you learn about pisses you off. When I got my Chuck they were a hot company, a couple of years old. I waited 2 months for this also pricey frame, but again, ride and quality wise I still haven't been able to fault this frame. It broke in the beginning of summer, 2001, right on a weld (this bike has a lot of welds, due to how it is built. I'll post a picture if anyone is really interested and actually gets this far in reading). Now when I got this bike, it came with a "100 year" warranty. I now had heard that Chuck was going under but some of the guys had started a rear shock company (which also, of course, went under), so assuming that I would probably have to pay to get it fixed, I now hoped that maybe they had some some parts (it was a rear stay, right at the disc tab, that broke). I was then put in touch with the original fabricator, whose name is also on a sticker on my down tube. Calling him, he was super nice, and told me to send it back and he would reweld the section with a gusset, at no charge. I didn't ask for this nor expected, but I was, naturally, thrilled. So in May, I sent the frame back to CA. In the meantime I built up the Ellsworth with my lighter parts (and surprisingly it was not the 3 or so pound heavier frame I noticed. It was the 2 inch longer wheel base that I wasn't used to on a cross country bike!). And I waited. And waited. A month later (I figured, hey, this guy was doing me favor, sort of) I called and politely asked when he thought I'd get me bike back. He was still nice and said he'd get on it and I'd have it soon. So I waited. I waited till August, roughly 4 months since I had sent it out. I was still polite, but this time I wouldn't let up without questions. What could possible take so long? The long of it was, he began complaining to me about the company (Chuck) still owing him money for frames, for warranty issues, etc, and that this was all coming out of his pocket. If he had told me hey, I have to charge you, I would've paid. If he had said, man, I've had a tough summer, I would've understood. But he told me things that I neither had control over nor were involved with, and frankly, had nothing to do with my business with him. Me and him, plain and simple. I will fix the bike, no charge. I eventually got my frame, no charge, but once it breaks again, new bike. The point of this part of the story is this--I've dealt with my own broken bike. I've known others who bought an expensive product with the ass-umption that Lifetime means lifetime. BS. That's just not the case.
It's reasonbly clear that Tony does build his bikes with planned obsolescence. I'm not judging this, just stating a fact. I've seen companies warranty a bike that broke on a weld, or something else reasonably clear-cut (that is, not been abused and pretty evident that it was more than likely a manufacturing issue which, with some of the EW's is the case) 6 or more years after that model was made. Doesn't matter that this suspension model is completely different, and possibly changed 6 times as well. Yeah we goofed on that one. Sorry you're out your bike for the week it takes us to get it and get the new one to you, but we want to keep you as our customer cause we know you in the end are our best advertisement. 9 times out of 10 that customer is happy.
I know Ellsworth is a small company. They can't send out a new frame every time someone jumps off a 10 foot drop with their Truth. At the same time, we, as consumers, must ask: if we know a company has consistantly changed there design every 2 or so years (which is not in itself a bad thing or we would all still be riding rigid 12 speed 35 lb stumpjumpers), which effectively negates the "Lifetime" warranty, do you want to spend that much on a bike? Some will, and some will not. Some great points have have been made from this original post, things that are good to think about for any frame or bike purchase. Zonoskar wrote, " Tony himself noted that independent studies have shown that the majority of manufacturer defects will show in the first year of use. Providing 2 year warranty will safeguard that almost every manufacturer defect will show before the warranty period expires. After that, it's just leniency of the manufacturer against mis-use. A lifetime warranty may even provoke mis-use!" Its also been said that Tony has perhaps used the "Lifetime" warranty as a selling feature, which could be the case as well.

The fact that there have been so many posts about this issue (albeit by many of the same people, but this is how a dialogue works), is good thing. Of course there are going to be those who bad mouth a product or talk up a product and are truly talking out of their rears (the guy on the Trek Forum-I can't even begin to guess what is going through his head, and you'll know who I'm talking about as soon as you read his posts), but I think its equally important for people to email you as you want them to do as well as post on this board, whatever their feelings might be. That's what a FORUM is all about, although I'm also ready to go back to the old forum, but that's just me. Of course, blatantly personal attacks typically ruin one's own credibility, rather than the attackee's, so we should keep this in mind as we post.

Yours
Dave
neveride, now riding much more since leaving the bike industry

Thanks Dave for taking the time to write that lengthy post, and TE for writing that first post. I think that we as customers need to feel that we are protected and that we are being met by the company if something, anything, ever happens with his bike. Unfortenately, EW have been rather hit-miss in the customer-service department, and that is simply a big no-no for a small business. Everyone must feel that they are being met by the company in anything, big or small ever happens to them. It is absolutely imperative.
Then, the warranty itself. Like someone wise said above, maybe people are "misusing" the warranty so they can justify abusing it to smitherens "Hey! I`ll just get an new one when this dies! It`s warrantied for my entire lifetime!". Just check that kid and his pals who hucked their garageroof... I think that the "lifetime" part is confusing people. If you offered a much more straightforward warr. like 2 years unconditional warranty and then parts at cost, that would be a much more clearcut situation.
I`m eyeing a slightly used Dare -02 and this hasen`t swayed my opinion about your bikes TE, but i`m not quite sure what to expect if i need to get i touch with you or your company for some reason.
Just one piece of advice for TE: make sure that everyone that takes contact with you and your company feels that you are doing the utmost to satisfie and please them. Go the extra yard!

Remember a happy customer is a returning customer.

Regards, erol/frost
www.frostnet.nu

for taking time to give us your opiinion. I wouldnt say anything more or less...


I worked in a bike shop (as both a mechanic and Manager) since 1990 up until a year ago. I've owned an Ellsworth (2000 Dare), as well as a Turner (95ish Burner), as well as countless other bikes. I jumped on the FS bandwagon back in '94 when I got my Answer-Manitou FS frame (and of all the bikes I've owned, I think I miss this one the most. Then my 1st generation Yeti Lawill) I'm also still on my '98 Chuck which has broken once and was rewelded, but since the company is now defunct (in fact, defunct since 2001 or so) I hope it doesn't brake again as I really enjoy this bike and don't want to get another. All this said, here's something that I've been thinking about reading these posts...

Not to weigh in for or against Ellsworth, a warranty is only as good as 2 things: 1. how good the company behind the warranty is (and I'll clarify this statement in a bit), and 2. How good the place you got the product (in this case frame) is. Now, being officially out of the bike biz, I do buy most of my stuff Mail order, as you cannot beat price, and I've got enough certifications to know that I'm equally or more qualified to fix a bike than 90% of the bike shop mechanics (I've known a few over the years who can still outfix me, thus the 10%, and I know I don't know everything). But I still maintain a good relationship with my LBS, as when it comes down to it, they will sometimes (I must STRESS SOMETIMES) have more, or at least, extra pull, than the average consumer. At the same time, I've seen enough broken frames through the years, ranging from the Biggest Company (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) to the smallest boutique brand to know that any and every type of bike breaks. I've had warranty experiences that range from unbelievable in a good way(Specialized telling me to give a customer a brand new bike off the floor no questions asked, after said customer dropped 3 grand on a bike only to have it break at a weld 3 months later) to unbelievable in a bad way (a brand new frame coming in and after unwrapping it from the plastic finding a lug not welded, and having the company tell me that I'm wrong, that's not correct, and either the shop or our customer will have to pay to get it fixed (in the end, neither did, but neither the shop nor the customer were happy)-That company starts with a W). I've been able and willing to warranty questionable things because the customer is reasonable, loyal (and loyal to me never meant only buying from us. It meant repeat business, and understandingthat I can't always match a price, but always giving me a shot to come close to match a price, as well as sending me business). I've twisted arms and butted heads with inside warranties guys, some of who have bent over backwards to make things right. Sometimes they can and will go the extra mile. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes great companies have an inside guy who doesn't give a crap and can never see the shop or customer's (and in the end, the shop is really just a customer as well) point of view. Hell, a couple of times I can't see my own customer's point of view. On the other hand, I've loaned out my own personal spare bike to a customer, just to keep them happy, not to make sure I kept them as a customer (of course I did) but because I would want someone to do the same for me. What I'm saying with this ridiculously long rant and still haven't broached the real subject of Ellsworth's (or anyone else for that matter) warranty, is that there can be lots a variables to why something gets warrantied and why it doesn't. As a service manager, though, my belief was simple: if your product failed unreasonably (that is, in a way that clearly is not through abuse) I would've done anything in my power to do the right thing for you the customer.

Now, let me state that I loved my Ellsworth. When it rolled into the shop I didn't need to chase a single thread or face the head or bb. The welds were superb. Granted, it was disc only and they still had your typical slotted, housing stops (that is, you couldn't run a continuous hydro hose, and this was pre Avid discs, and only Hayes had their 1st generation cable actuated discs, so if you ran discs, and again, on this bike you had too, you ran hydros) which made no sense to me and I still never got an good answer for. But it was a sweet ride nonetheless (since sold it to a hopefully happy rider). Still it was pricey, and there is a thing we call planned obsolescence, which the first time you learn about pisses you off. When I got my Chuck they were a hot company, a couple of years old. I waited 2 months for this also pricey frame, but again, ride and quality wise I still haven't been able to fault this frame. It broke in the beginning of summer, 2001, right on a weld (this bike has a lot of welds, due to how it is built. I'll post a picture if anyone is really interested and actually gets this far in reading). Now when I got this bike, it came with a "100 year" warranty. I now had heard that Chuck was going under but some of the guys had started a rear shock company (which also, of course, went under), so assuming that I would probably have to pay to get it fixed, I now hoped that maybe they had some some parts (it was a rear stay, right at the disc tab, that broke). I was then put in touch with the original fabricator, whose name is also on a sticker on my down tube. Calling him, he was super nice, and told me to send it back and he would reweld the section with a gusset, at no charge. I didn't ask for this nor expected, but I was, naturally, thrilled. So in May, I sent the frame back to CA. In the meantime I built up the Ellsworth with my lighter parts (and surprisingly it was not the 3 or so pound heavier frame I noticed. It was the 2 inch longer wheel base that I wasn't used to on a cross country bike!). And I waited. And waited. A month later (I figured, hey, this guy was doing me favor, sort of) I called and politely asked when he thought I'd get me bike back. He was still nice and said he'd get on it and I'd have it soon. So I waited. I waited till August, roughly 4 months since I had sent it out. I was still polite, but this time I wouldn't let up without questions. What could possible take so long? The long of it was, he began complaining to me about the company (Chuck) still owing him money for frames, for warranty issues, etc, and that this was all coming out of his pocket. If he had told me hey, I have to charge you, I would've paid. If he had said, man, I've had a tough summer, I would've understood. But he told me things that I neither had control over nor were involved with, and frankly, had nothing to do with my business with him. Me and him, plain and simple. I will fix the bike, no charge. I eventually got my frame, no charge, but once it breaks again, new bike. The point of this part of the story is this--I've dealt with my own broken bike. I've known others who bought an expensive product with the ass-umption that Lifetime means lifetime. BS. That's just not the case.
It's reasonbly clear that Tony does build his bikes with planned obsolescence. I'm not judging this, just stating a fact. I've seen companies warranty a bike that broke on a weld, or something else reasonably clear-cut (that is, not been abused and pretty evident that it was more than likely a manufacturing issue which, with some of the EW's is the case) 6 or more years after that model was made. Doesn't matter that this suspension model is completely different, and possibly changed 6 times as well. Yeah we goofed on that one. Sorry you're out your bike for the week it takes us to get it and get the new one to you, but we want to keep you as our customer cause we know you in the end are our best advertisement. 9 times out of 10 that customer is happy.
I know Ellsworth is a small company. They can't send out a new frame every time someone jumps off a 10 foot drop with their Truth. At the same time, we, as consumers, must ask: if we know a company has consistantly changed there design every 2 or so years (which is not in itself a bad thing or we would all still be riding rigid 12 speed 35 lb stumpjumpers), which effectively negates the "Lifetime" warranty, do you want to spend that much on a bike? Some will, and some will not. Some great points have have been made from this original post, things that are good to think about for any frame or bike purchase. Zonoskar wrote, " Tony himself noted that independent studies have shown that the majority of manufacturer defects will show in the first year of use. Providing 2 year warranty will safeguard that almost every manufacturer defect will show before the warranty period expires. After that, it's just leniency of the manufacturer against mis-use. A lifetime warranty may even provoke mis-use!" Its also been said that Tony has perhaps used the "Lifetime" warranty as a selling feature, which could be the case as well.

The fact that there have been so many posts about this issue (albeit by many of the same people, but this is how a dialogue works), is good thing. Of course there are going to be those who bad mouth a product or talk up a product and are truly talking out of their rears (the guy on the Trek Forum-I can't even begin to guess what is going through his head, and you'll know who I'm talking about as soon as you read his posts), but I think its equally important for people to email you as you want them to do as well as post on this board, whatever their feelings might be. That's what a FORUM is all about, although I'm also ready to go back to the old forum, but that's just me. Of course, blatantly personal attacks typically ruin one's own credibility, rather than the attackee's, so we should keep this in mind as we post.

Yours
Dave
neveride, now riding much more since leaving the bike industry

...Ask yourself why there are so many "screw Ellsworth" threads and yet no "Screw Turner" threads, "Screw Ventana Threads" , "Screw Moots" threads , 'Screw Intense" threads or 'Screw Titus" threads on MTBR.

Feel the gin

Exactly!

First let me say I've never owned a ellsworth, and I have no experience in dealing with them. I have not been treated well by them or abused by them. Though I've been looking at buying a Truth / ID for over a year now and have read everything I can on them. There are a lot of happy ellsworth owners, all you have to do is read reviews on the truth/id to verify that.

If Tony's ideas of "well only the unsatisfied customers complain" and that's the reason you see so many complaints of being treated poorly by ellsworth are true. Why don't we see these kind of posts about ventana, turner, titus, seven, intense etc? Shouldn't there be just as many upset people having problems with those bikes? There no doubt are some out there but not nearly as many. I've seen that sony study quoted in other industries as well, it's always used as an excuse by companies who have unsatisfied customers complain. It's a cope out, plain and simple. If the study held true every company would have the same amount of unhappy customers (and online complaints) proportional to their sales.....that just doesn't happen. If that were true, we'd have countless complaining about trek, giant, specialized, who sell the most bikes.

As to the warranty, I disagree with the idea of the customer having to pay for a warranty issue. The idea of covering a swingarm for warranty, then charging the customer for a shock/rockers/front triangle because they no longer make compatable parts anymore is to me pathetic. If it's a defect then it should be taken care of at NO CHARGE to the customer. If you can't make enough money from $2000-2300 bike frame sales to cover the costs of a full replacement frame for the few that are defective, then you are in the wrong business or you need to make less defective frames. At the most I can see charging your cost for a new rear shock if the old one will not work, but in a warranty replacement case nothing else should be charged for.

If the bike was broken from abuse, then it's not a warranty issue, it's a crash replacement issue. Now if it's crash damage or abuse, then a fair crash replacement price can be worked out. However I think it's totally unrealistic to expect the customer to pick up the cost for a defect just because a company has changed their design. In just about every industry if you break something that is no longer produced the company gives you their current model in equal or better quality range.

I realize there is a gray area here, someone that rides a truth for freeriding, depending on your definiton of freeriding could be abusing the bike, which if it fails in 3 years after jumping off 5' walls and such should not be warranty work. I'm sure that's hard to prove on the manufacturers end, and some customers will never be satisfied no mater how well you treat them.

Also as Tony states there are a lot of people that abuse the SNOT out of bikes and expect them to be replaced free, which is just as wrong or worse in my opinion. If you abuse your bike, you should be on a bike built for abuse. That's not a truth or an ID, no where will you see Ellsworth recommend a ID for freeriding. The joker is probably more gray area, if you market a bike as a downhill and all mountain bike it better be able to take the abuse, if it fails from downhill or freeriding then it's warranty because you market the bike to those riders.

This is the bottom line, no matter if ellsworth's above warranty practices are to the letter of their warranty or not, I can guarantee it is costing them customers. Warranty is very important to customers especially with the cost of bikes these days. Customers are doing a lot of research online about products before they buy these days and are way more informed than they were even 2 years ago.

I have no doubt that Tony's statements about the complications of warranty and customer service, or that they handle the warranty to the letter of their warranty statement. However, after reading Tony's posts his tone and statements do not encourage enthusiasm to purchase his products or much faith that if I had a defect it would be handled to my satisfaction.

Maybe you can compromise on your warranty....... you say that most defects show up in the first year, okay well how about we extend that to 2 years.....that would cover riders that don't ride as much as others. Make that 2 year warranty pretty much no questions, no costs, except for in obvious cases of abuse IE I drove my truck over it, etc.

Then after the 2 years do your current warranty, in that if something breaks and parts are no longer available, they get the broken part for free under warranty, and the rest of the frame/shock parts at cost. Also if there is a obvious defect that has happened repeatedly it would probably be a good idea to cover that totally as well.

Then I would add a section for crash replacement/abuse, stating that if your failure is determined to be from a crash, or abusive riding the bike was not designed for you will be given the opportunity to either replace the broken part for reduced cost, or in neccessary the entire frame for a reduced cost.

That would pretty much cover most issues that would come up. People would know up front that in 2 years they are covered, after that they can expect to pay some for replacement and at any time if it's crash or abuse damage they expect to pay. Of course this would only be applicable to the original owner.

I have no doubt that Tony feels he makes the best bikes in the industry, with that kind of confidence I'd think he'd want to back them up with the best warranty.

ToddM put it nicely. How about a comment from Mr Ellsworth himself on these suggestions?

ToddM put it nicely. How about a comment from Mr Ellsworth himself on these suggestions?
Give me a break!!! Do you actually want to read another list of excuses? Nothing will change. The only thing that may prompt a change would be a loss of sales.

btw.....changing a warranty period or warranty details is not a small deal. There is always a chance that it will be misconstrued and sales will drop.

Here's the problem for Mr. Ellsworth and the warranty:

Currently, without looking at the details, it appears that Ellsworth has the best warranty in the boutique bike business. In actuality, the Ellsworth warranty is at best equal to other boutique builders warranties. I believe that it's most likely one of the worst.

The issue is that prospective buyers, outside of MTBR, don't know about the warranty particulars. Many will buy the bike because they heard great things about the BIKES and "look....it has a lifetime warranty...I'm totally protected" If Ellsworth changed his warranty, he may lose those sales. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

Well boo-hoo on you motherfuxxxr if you didn`t like what i wrote. I believe in an open dialogue-environment. And i want to know what TE thinks about our suggestions.

Give me a break!!! Do you actually want to read another list of excuses? Nothing will change. The only thing that may prompt a change would be a loss of sales.

btw.....changing a warranty period or warranty details is not a small deal. There is always a chance that it will be misconstrued and sales will drop.

Here's the problem for Mr. Ellsworth and the warranty:

Currently, without looking at the details, it appears that Ellsworth has the best warranty in the boutique bike business. In actuality, the Ellsworth warranty is at best equal to other boutique builders warranties. I believe that it's most likely one of the worst.

The issue is that prospective buyers, outside of MTBR, don't know about the warranty particulars. Many will buy the bike because they heard great things about the BIKES and "look....it has a lifetime warranty...I'm totally protected" If Ellsworth changed his warranty, he may lose those sales. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

Ellsworth warranty is better than most, BUT, it is hardly a lifetime warranty as advertised.

The design changes are good, BUT, not when your frame breaks and you have to pay for them

Customer service is great, BUT, warranty claims are not handled in a consistant manner

I believe he has a great product, BUT, he has pissed off a lot of people and his latest decision to charge people with broken Truth frames for the 2004 suspension upgrade is hurting him.

Change the warranty AND make sure your frames are durable.

i like a strong usa built bike. i bought a rotec xc4 in 2000 they only made 100 of these 4 bar bikes.the company was sold out,but the new owner of the company,is the best at taking care of things.He said he would take care of the bike,and make it look new and ride like new and take care of things that he thought would make it better than new. Now thats a real true bike fan and a great owner of a true u.s of .a bike company.not some fat cat.buy rotec buy foes dont buy big brand u.s. bikes, they wont you to think they care they dont .

Ok sorry to all you guys when i last posted i sort of missed one of the major points of this section in the forum

i see a lot of people are complaining about the fact that when the design was chnged it wasnt compatible i dont know much about the specifics of the change but it boils down to compatibility issues of the new not being 100 percent compatible with the old and people having to fork out more money to replace a whole bunch of parts than originally intended

am i correct

well if so i can only add my two pence worth

if it comes down to the newer upgraded parts lasting a lot longer through better mechanical design than the old then i kind of(and i mean kind of) would be happy to pay the money provided it lasted a reasonable amount of time,(lifetime ill come to that later) however when it does come down to this point alone i would also be asking a very foolish question why the new design is so much better than the older outdated method on something which is reasonably similar

if this is performance related then no real problem every manufacturer tweaks designs to make them function better or make it plusher (performance reasons) and it creates obsolescance(did i spell that right)and if this is the case you pay your money and get the updated better parts which in turn will make your older bike function better

however if it is for a mechanical design point(ie the part breaks after six months and the manufacturer knows it) then i would be a bit less happy, how come this wasnt sorted at the design stage. if so this is a design fault or flaw(fault is a nasty term)if this is the case and the manufacturer knows about the problem then support in the form of older parts should be expected(amp research stopped making bikes years ago but you can still get spares from them) and therefore in the case of mechanical(not performance related upgrades)failures if its a known failure the spare should be available under warranty
i would have two option i can pay for a performance boost and be happy however if im paying for a mechanical improvement that is through poor original design i would be less than a happy bunny

which leads me onto anothe great warranty get out clause what is lifetime warranty

the part could have a service life of 1 year or 10 years thats its life or how long it should last for whatever reason as i stated in a previous post everything will break and its pretty easy these days to say when it will break now shocks are warrantied for 1 year under most makers which i think is pretty good considering they get hammered and live in pretty terrible conditions but a frame dependant on its design can last anything from 6 months to 10 years really i think makers should be giving a warranty which is more detailed as to the lifetime of the frame on its mechanical based ground

i think some people read lifetime and think it means it should never break it has a lifetime warranty what this actually means is the lifetime of the combied design and materials which is finite

on the back of this im starting to agree with some of the guys warranty issues why ellsworth has changed the design, i dont know why but im pretty sure he will have done it to improve the product like i say if its for performance you should get a better bike and you are paying for improvements which make you bike perform that bit better

i would too be miffed at having to pay for a design improvement for the reason that the old part only lasted x years but the new one is y years if i dont want the mechanical upgrade and just want the old i should have that part under warranty it broke before its expected lifetime if i dont want the new all singing all dancing super long lasting part i should at least be given a choice

the only point which i can agree with is that most manufacturers try to improve their product for the better and kudos to ellsworth for it but from thios i would deduce that ellsworth a least wants to give the customer a better part or piece of equipment


like i say ellsworth should give a choice (replace free if its a fault with the original)

or offer a replacement with upgrade which should satisfy both parties involved

exactly holes in warranty was the point im trying to make

there are so many get out clauses in them that its not as clear cut in print

i was trying to be a bit clever and make my post read like a confusing statement
just like some warranties

I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...


This is an awesome quote to spit your lunch out in laughter to....

The fact of the matter is TE was asking for constructive input. A few have done so, even if they don't agree with TE, but others just have to make comments that don't help anyone or post things just to provoke others... stop you are just beating a dead horse, we know you are not satisfied, so move on.

Meanwhile, "prescribed usage" is another ambiguous term. His prescribed usage could be a 120 pounder riding around on flat ground.

Steve man, get over it. Life's too short to dwell on this thing.

Tell you what, I know a lot of folks who ride Ells and every one of them...including myself...has been happy with the CS. This has just been a smear campaign orchistrated by a small handful of disgruntled riders is all. Read any MFRs warranty and they're all full of outs and ambiguous statements.

Just don't BUY an EW...that'l show 'em ;)

Meanwhile, "prescribed usage" is another ambiguous term. His prescribed usage could be a 120 pounder riding around on flat ground.

picture speaks a thousand words... or something like that... anyway...

The fact of the matter is TE was asking for constructive input. A few have done so, even if they don't agree with TE, but others just have to make comments that don't help anyone or post things just to provoke others... stop you are just beating a dead horse, we know you are not satisfied, so move on.


Ok, how about Tony makes his warrenty less ILLEGAL. Go check the general section if you need the US laws spelled out for you.

Mike, unfortunately, I couldn't understand ANYTHING you said

unfortunately, we cant help you with that. but i suggest you seek help.

the proof of the problems are the new drafts of the EW warranty.

i'd say that the company is listening to it's customers. that is exactly what i'd expect from Ellsworth. Actually, the reputation and tradition were two top reasons when i was choosing my bike...

thanks steve3

Meanwhile, "prescribed usage" is another ambiguous term. His prescribed usage could be a 120 pounder riding around on flat ground.

just wondering...

Ok, how about Tony makes his warrenty less ILLEGAL. Go check the general section if you need the US laws spelled out for you.

than the warranty itself. i hope you read it as well...

than the warranty itself. i hope you read it as well...


Warrenty laws ambigous? are you insane? It CLEARLY states that if you offer a warrenty, that you MUST provide the customer a replacement or equivalent model at NO COST. It can't be much clearer than that.

Warrenty laws ambigous? are you insane? It CLEARLY states that if you offer a warrenty, that you MUST provide the customer a replacement or equivalent model at NO COST. It can't be much clearer than that.

if it is so clear, why anyone needs lawyers sir?

give me a break please... every law has a hole.

remember O.J. sir?

if it is so clear, why anyone needs lawyers sir?

give me a break please... every law has a hole.

remember O.J. sir?

??? Again, are you you insane? Why are you making this up? There is no problem with the law, the problem is that just like the misquoted mountain bike review that used to exist on tony's site, no one has called him out on this until now tony has shown himself to be the kind of person that will get away with something untill someone calls him on it.

We don't have ANY laywers and look at what we have accomplished, look at the new 2004 warrenty? Tony is still screwed by the "older" warrenty that was sold with older bikes, but now customers can call him out on it and know what regulations to speak of.

OJ has nothing to do with this, and we have proved that we do have the power to change stuff.

i think steve meant he couldnt understand my hurried unstructured post

Well, osokolo...Lets see here....
"tradition": A tradition of poorly designed frames that has been admitted to by Tony and refusal to make no cost upgrades to owe up to his side of the bargain of making the best bikes in the industry? Tony is not royalty. The badge just tries to make it look like that. In fact, I saw "Ellsworth" tattooed across a Latin King's neck the other day.

"reputation": Even more hilarious. A reputation of treating his dealer and customer base with as much inconsistancy as he has was a draw? A reputation of hate and animosity from business partners and customers?

We can all understand the pride issue you have with your bike, but no one is attacking you until you attack them. The issues are with Ellsworth and you clearly stated "I must defend them against the bashers". Why? No one is saying you're less of a man because you ride and enjoy an Ellsworth. People have trouble with the man, not you or your bike. In fact, the crux is people love the bikes, but will not buy because they hate him.

And bringing up the Tomac isn't going to make this thread die. I liked how you claimed to be forced to read this crap and you wanted the threads to go away, but you willingly and proactively kept them at the top for days after I stopped contributing and every post of yours said the same thing. Oddly enough, you told me I had nothing more to contribute, except saying the same thing over and over.

Oh yeah, the snipit of not understanding...That's called taking something out of context and manipulating the meaning. That's a trick Tony has used extensively.

when you started crapping again that i would be back..

the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. if i think that Ellsworth has tradition, who cares if you dont think so. that is why i have Ellsworth bike and you have other bike. i hope you considered tradition of that other manufacturer before you burned your (and father's) money.

as far as reputation goes, if you ever went or read about for example 24 hours of adrenaline events, you'd be surprised how many Ellsworth bikes were in use by high level competitors and those on the top of the recreational class... i guess they either dont read MTBR boards or dont give a sh** about what you and handful of others have to say about the brand. due credit to those who contributed to this discussion either way...

and that snipit about not understanding was good, wasnt it? i know you liked it...

Because they do the paperwork while you're at work.

you apparently know nothing about law then...

??? Again, are you you insane? Why are you making this up? There is no problem with the law, the problem is that just like the misquoted mountain bike review that used to exist on tony's site, no one has called him out on this until now tony has shown himself to be the kind of person that will get away with something untill someone calls him on it.

We don't have ANY laywers and look at what we have accomplished, look at the new 2004 warrenty? Tony is still screwed by the "older" warrenty that was sold with older bikes, but now customers can call him out on it and know what regulations to speak of.

OJ has nothing to do with this, and we have proved that we do have the power to change stuff.

and no, i am not insane. if laws were so clear and easy to understand, we wouldnt need lawyers. they dont just do paperwork. they look for and they FIND holes in rules, regulations and laws.

you think that TE changed his warranty in order to avoid law suits? there are so many owners with the old warranty that this change would do nothing to change circumstances. i believe he is changing his warranty to make it simpler to read and understand and most importantly interprete.

i am not saying that this is bad thing, actually i think it is good thing. and maybe you are even right in stating that he is changing it in order to avoid law suits. i dont care, personally. i didnt interpret the warranty the way you did and few others. and i am sure that there are more people who interpreted it the way i did.

again, nothing wrong with changing the warranty if customers are demanding it. it could be more productive if you proposed changes directly to TE once you post them on this board...

This is an awesome quote to spit your lunch out in laughter to....

if you qoute tonys statement about testing then the guy probably has done that testing

problem is there are so many variables in testing and if fea is fraught with danger if its done incorrectly

i think steve meant he couldnt understand my hurried unstructured post

of course... you are right...

the post to mike was meant in a friendly way and I denoted that by saying something to the effect of how there's probably some good material in there...

and your posts are getting shorter and shorter, osokolo.

Also, osokolo can't really consolidate his posts to under four, can he?

pun was intended...

but you lost me on the last statement. care to clarify? i am sure it is insignificant and/or irrelevant, but hey...