Curious to see what kind of GPS devices people are using out there to map trails. Any recommendations? What pro's and con's should I be looking for?

Curious to see what kind of GPS devices people are using out there to map trails. Any recommendations? What pro's and con's should I be looking for?

I've had this model for a few years. It has an altimiter and electronic compass and I can load waypoints from it to my digital maps (iGage and TOPO!), and points from the maps to the unit. I don't mount it on my bar, I just stick it in my hydration pack. It runs off of 2 AA batteries and works well with rechargeables.

Look for something small and light. The compass helps a lot when you're stopped or moving slowly as the compasses on regular GPS units don't read true in these situations. Choose something with a computer interface if you're ever going to get digitized maps. My interface needs a serial to USB converter. I don't know if any more modern interfaces hook up direct to USB, but that would be better.

I use the Garman eTrex Vista for any ride over 15 miles (which is most). I go long distances into uncharted territory alone. (Drives my wife nuts.) Like the Summit, the Vista is small, got lots of customizable screens, and great software. I think it also has a (2X) higher resolution screen. It has 24 MB memory versus 8 MB (?) on the Summit. For a little more, I think the Vista is worth it. I paid $230 a couple years ago.

My Vista is similar to the Summit in that it has a Compass and Altimeter. I find both of them useful, but especially the altimeter in California, where altitude is a great help in determining location due to the steep mountains. Also, I'm big (250 lb) and altitude left to climb is more important to me than distance to ride. The air pressure altimeter helps the GPS determine altitude more accurately since it can't get as big a difference between satellite signals (no satellites under the ground for instance). If I calibrate at a known elevation at the base (usually found around a ranger station), I found it's accurate to a few feet at the summit!

The Vista has more memory (24 MByte) for storing more maps. I find I need about 8 to 10 MB to store the roads in entire SF bay area from the Metro map ($80 extra). With the extra memory, I also store Santa Cruz, the central valley and Tahoe maps where I go. The Metro maps also include a Points of Interest which was a very pleasant suprise. For example, we can find the nearest mexican restaurant, gas station, or bike shop (for emergency parts) in seconds from information stored in the Vista memory and current GPS location. I also purchased the Topo maps (another $80) that are good for navigating and charting the remote areas. The Topo maps take up perhaps 4X less memory than the Metro maps for the same area. I use the Garmin Vista with Metro street maps while in my car to find the trail heads that are usually in some back road with no signs. Then for riding I use a single setting to swap over to the Topo maps to see where I'm going and help navigate on the ride.

I have the eTrex Vista mounted to my handle bars with the standard mount, which holds like a clam. In over a year of riding it's gone through lots of G forces in all my drops and technical cross country (over 1000 miles of tough terrain). It's still working great in spite of the harsh ride.

I was properly warned by other reveiwers about battery life. I get about 8 hours per set of two1600 mA-hour NiMH AA batteries. (Great prices at Beach Audio via Yahoo Shopping.) I bought 8 of these rechargable batteries along with my eTrex, but in retrospect really only needed 4, one set of two to run in the eTrex and one set of backup to take on the ride. The eTrex battery charge meter, like the rest of their software, works well.

The reception is good if mounted to the handle bars so the face is up to the sky. The reception will be horrible if thrown into a back pack. I only loose reception in deep valleys and/or thick trees, and then only momentarially until clearing the trees or climbing out of the valley a little bit.

I download the tracks and waypoints to my computer and use the information to plan the next foreys further out into uncharted traiils, knowing I can find my way back to a trial head. I've discovered neat trails by being able to match up trails branches from both sides. Since I ride alone, I give my wife the planned waypoint route and don't deviate. (Riding in very desolate areas alone is sort of stupid as I've seen my share of dangers - a small mountain lion, 8' rattlesnake, coyote, and a dozen wild boars just in the last 3 months. But at my size I go real slow and real long distances - 35+ miles in 6-8 hour rides that doesn't match anyone elses riding style.) I have another long winded review here somewhere that's similar to this but may have more info I left out here.

-Larry

I could send a long post, but it would be identical to the one from BigLarry. Vista on the bars, standard mount, very solid, no problems with drops and bumps. I got it for the same reasons: small, good screen resolution, lots of memory, good reception. I too have printed maps of remote rides for my wife's peace of mind. Except after years of listening to me going on about the best parts on this or that track log, she's finally gotten back on her ancient Cannondale and is now talking about how nice a suspension fork would be :D

It sounds a lot like the Etrex Vista. Reception is outstanding, it's waterproof, screen is easy to read, and the topo map software is excellent. The only thing I don't like is that it drains batteries awfully fast. You can also get street software for it, which is excellent, and I wouldn't think about taking a road trip without it. I don't use it much on the bike, except when I'm going into uncharted territory, or when I'm going out for a long ride alone. It's great for locating trailheads if you have any kind of directions to go on.

Curious to see what kind of GPS devices people are using out there to map trails. Any recommendations? What pro's and con's should I be looking for?

Depends on how you like to navigate - if its just a supplement to map reading, then a very basic model will suffice.

I like to download the whole route on to the GPS and ditch the map. In that case you'd need the following:

- On screen map
- Enough memory to hold lots of routes and maps
- PC connectivity and compatability with mapping software
- Weatherproof and with handlebar mounts available

The Garmin Etrex Vista and Legend give you all of this and are quite affordable. They have also just announced colour versions of these models with more memory and built in electronic compass.

If possible, get a GPS with a built in compass - my Etrex Legend doesn't have this and the direction (which is calculated from your breadcrumb trail) sometimes goes awry when travelling slowly or in poor reception, which can lead to wrong turns at junctions. Of course nothing that a normal compass couldn't sort out, but its nice not to have to stop and check your compass while riding.

The larger GPS units from Garmin and the generally larger units from Magellen have slightly better reception than the eTrex. This is because they use a helix antennae instead of the smaller patch antennae used in the eTrex. But they are larger and don't fit as well on a bike. I find the eTrex reception could be better, but accepatable in my year+ of riding in all conditions. I rarely loose reception, only in deep valleys, or momentarially in thick trees with a cliff on one side, but that's about it.

If I ever felt I needed more reception, I'd buy a re-radiating antennae. This uses a big high gain antennae and re-radiates a stronger signal near your small GPS antennae. It's only $50 and runs on 3 AA batteries. But again, I never felt the reception was that bad to make this reception gain useful. See http://pc-mobile.net/gpsant.htm

As for the other reviewers comments, I agree. I also first use my PC to map out waypoints for road directions to a new trail head, as well as the trails. The PC screen is faster and much larger and in color to see more detail for faster identification. Also, on the PC I can instantly move back and forth between Metro road and Topo maps that often show different details of the same area. I use comments from others and trail maps on the web and by matching contours and creeks I can usually mark a trail branch within 100' just from the terrain matching!! It helps greatly to know I shouldn't take the trail I'm passing that goes in the wrong direction, or that I've passed a trail branch I should have taken, or have taken the wrong branch.

The serial connection to the Garman eTrex only takes a minute for my large number of waypoints (200 now) and routes. Downloading maps takes longer, up to 30 minutes. so be prepared to do something else while that's happeing. Fortunately, with the large memory of the Garmin, I only need to change maps once or twice a year when going to a remote new location. It would be better to get a fast USB connection, which I'm sure will be available soon.

I appreciate all your recommendations and advice. You guys are more than helpful. Do you have any secrets on sites to buy the gps from or is ebay the best route?

I also have an Etrex Vista and it works awesome. However I don't trust it mounted to my bars...too many crashes. I keep it in the top pocket of my camelback and it never loses reception.

I use it not because I get lost, I live in Ct and there's not that much wide open space. I use it to keep track of my distances/climbs as opposed to a mountable computer (have broken quite a few of them). The altimeter, at least what I have found, seems to be pretty unreliable, but Topo resolves those problems.

I also have Topo (NE edition), and have a question. I thought you could only upload the MapSource (I think that's what it's called) Data onto the Vista. This is a separate software package from Topo isn't it? If you can upload Topo onto it then I am a moron, because I have had the gps and topo for a year and a half without even trying.

If you have deep pockets I think theres a new color Vista out that scores big in the "bling bling" department.

I find the Garmin eTrex altimeter very reliable and accurate, more so than anything else. I also use a Cat Eye bicycle computer and altimeter that only has resolution of 5' versus the 1' resolution of the Garmin. I can indeed lift my eTrex GPS by a foot or two and see it register. I continue to use both at the same time since the GPS is a little slow on reading bicycle speed, and I use the Cat Eye as an odometer to count total miles. In the same climb, the Cat Eye may register say 1680 ft, but the Garmin eTrex Vista will register 1570 ft. However, from the accurate topo maps I know the peak is actually 1570 and the Garmin is dead on.
Note that all altimeters work on air pressure that changes from day to day and needs to be calibrated for the corrrect altitude at the beginning of the ride. Although it can self calibrate, the GPS is very poor in the vertical direction (again, no satellites under the ground to generate a big difference in timing signal). So although the horizonatal error may be 15 to 25 feet, the vertical error may be 50 to 100 ft. Therefore, I just use manual calibration using a known altitude of my start point. I then turn off the automatic recalibration from the GPS signal, that just messes up the altimeter reading from the GPS altitude inaccuracy. Air pressure doesn't change that much over my 6 hour rides. I just checked a number of my saved Tracks, and when I get back to my start point, I'm rarely more than 20' to 30' off the original calibration depending on length of ride.

My eTrex Vista compass is very usefull for defining direction to my next waypoint. The electronic compass allows it to work while standing still. However, I tried using the compass to identify Mt Hamilton observatory from another peak. It was definitely 5 degrees off, even though I tried doing the double-circle trick to recalibrate a couple times. They say, like any compass, you need to hold it very horizontal for best accuacy. (Earth's field lines go vertical too and mess up the pointing if not horizontal). Even still, I couldn't do better than 5 degrees. It also messed up once with my family hiking for some unknown reason and pointed us in all sorts of wrong directions. No power lines around. Perhaps the batteries were low or I didn't calibrate right that day. So it's useful and fair accuracy, but not as good as a good compass instrument.

Garmin has two sets of maps through their MapSource brand. One is the MetroGuide that includes incredible detail of road maps and Points of Interest (like every single deli, school, church, restaurant, store, ATM, bank, Post Office, police station, .... with address and phone number to call and see if they're open). Another Garmin MapSource set is the TOPO, which is not to be confused with the National Geographic TOPO. I have both the Garmin and National Geographic TOPO. The Natioanal Geographic is used more commonly by others and has more colorization and slightly more contour lines. But the National Geographic TOPO looks like it's just a scan of USGS maps into a picture file at five different scales, which explains the expensive 10 CD set for just one state (California). In contrast, the single CD MapSource TOPO covers the entire USA and is truly digitized, and can give good detail at any scale, especially the finer scales that the National Geogrpahic just starts looking blurry with a magnified picture. I used both for a while and finally found the Garmin maps were easier to use since the maps were less cluttered and easier to read.

I have also tried using the National Geographic TOPO to make an altitude profile using GPS trackes, but the CA mountains are so steep that a 30' GPS error could sometimes lead to a 50 foot altitude error in the profile. I found the eTrex Vista altitude measurement was much more accurate in creating an altitude profile.

To answer Managuese's question, with the MapSource Topo maps installed, you can switch back and forth between the MetroGuide and US Topo on the PC software by a selection box just left of the + magnify tool bar. Everything stays where it is and all waypoints stay marked. But you see completely different features in remote areas. The Topo shows more of the dirt roads and many (1/3?) of the biking trails even. But the MetroGuide shows street names and other things.
As for using the MapSource Topo maps with the eTrex Vista GPS, go to the map screen, then select Setup Map halfway down the left menu. Then highlight the "i" on the far right and you'll see the maps that are active. You can turn off the topo maps and activate the MetroGuide maps one by one. But then one day I got smarter and realized I can do all of them at once with one button. While the "i" is still highlighted, scroll up to the top menu bar again and you'll see two options. One for "Show MetroGuide USA" and another for "Show US Topo". This will convert all active maps to either Topo or Metro.

My eTrex Vista has survived dozens of crashes (some big) on my bike without a problem. The constant heavy G forces of the front shock over rough terrain are probably worse than any crash. But I don't blame others for wanting to instead place the eTrex in a back pack. I suspect it works for Managuense because its in a top pocket facing roughly up.

I hope I didn't tell you more than you wanted to know. But here it is.

Ahh, I use National Geographic Topo, so thanks for nswering my question.

for all the replies...

I guess my main reason for looking into GPS is to map routes for trails in my area that do not have maps or trail guides available for them. How difficult is it to create maps w/ the Vista. As in, I am interested in creating maps onto a topo to print out for others to use.

for all the replies...

I guess my main reason for looking into GPS is to map routes for trails in my area that do not have maps or trail guides available for them. How difficult is it to create maps w/ the Vista. As in, I am interested in creating maps onto a topo to print out for others to use.


A blind monkey could do it. Most trail maps I have seen use a combination of GPS and Topo.

Most all computer maps, such as Garmin's TOPO and the National Geographic TOPO allow import of GPS data thorugh a simple setup screen with automatic setup for most common GPS units. This includes inporting the Tracks, or GPS breadcrumb trail of your path that your GPS recorded, and Waypoints, which are special named points you've saved. As you import more and more tracks over time, you'll see more and more trails overlayed on your TOPO map. (You can also download Routes, which are a set of Waypoints you will thread on your ride.)

When biking, when I see a trail junction or other useful point, I'll press the joystick on my eTrex Vista and it will mark a waypoint for me. When I get home, I upload this waypoints with the tracks to my TOPO software and give them names (usually limited to 10 letters).

A GPS will easily allow you to make trail maps, and I suspect is the most common way they're made these days, sometimes in combination from aerial photos. You'll get a topo map with lots of colored trails on them. Both Garmin's MapSource and National Geographic TOPO allow you to change the color of the lines. The National Geographic software is visually more colorful and the one I'd use to show friends. That also may explain why you see it more. But I find the Garmin software much faster and more useful for manipulating and finding features. Also, only the Garmin MapSource TOPO maps can be downloaded to the Garmin GPS in parallel with the Metro maps. The National Geographic maps are really just pictures and cannot be digitally downloaded to the GPS.

I also agree with Manguense about blind monkey simplicity, but don't have any visually challanged simians around that would allow me to confirm his claim. :)

Thanks for the help..

Interesting stuff, esp for someone with the same unit!

I find the Garmin eTrex altimeter very reliable and accurate, more so than anything else. ...So although the horizonatal error may be 15 to 25 feet, the vertical error may be 50 to 100 ft. Therefore, I just use manual calibration using a known altitude of my start point. I then turn off the automatic recalibration from the GPS signal,..., I'm rarely more than 20' to 30' off the original calibration depending on length of ride.
Yes! My front door is exactly 7200', and with auto recalibrate off, I get home after any length ride and am always between 7150 and 7250, usually within 30'. The native GPS elevation profile seems much better than deriving Z from X and Y on the topo maps.


My eTrex Vista has survived dozens of crashes (some big) on my bike without a problem. The constant heavy G forces of the front shock over rough terrain are probably worse than any crash. But I don't blame others for wanting to instead place the eTrex in a back pack. I suspect it works for Managuense because its in a top pocket facing roughly up.


I'm just waiting for the day I crash in exactly the wrong way and bust the thing, so I can also see keeping it in the Camelbak. But I use my GPS almost all the time and it's been through some respectable wrecks. It's never come off the mount, though the impacts have turned it off a few times.

As far as accuracy goes, I've recently been trying setting the track log to pretty high density -- 50 points per mile. (Doing the serial upload for an1800 point track after a ride gives you time for a nice sparkling malt beverage.) After I log several passes of the same route, I use some homegrown routines to interpolate and average. So if XY error is 20 feet and you've got, say, four tracks for the route, your random error should be down to about 10, at which point you really can do pretty well by getting elevation from the topo.

Given the original poster just wanted basic info, it seems I may be getting near a thread hijack here. If you want to take further discussion to a PM, drop me one!

I almost forgot, as if I didn't say enough, but you asked for places to purchase. Here's some other nice web sites as well:

http://www.gps4fun.com/index_category.php
http://www.gpspassion.com/fr/default.asp?_SetCurrentVersion=EN
http://www.garmin.com/outdoor/products.html#mapping
http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo/

For a detailed technical review of GPS units including the new color eTrex and others and other GPS technology:
http://gpsinformation.net/

For maps and eTrex handlebar mounts, I found the lowest prices at:
http://www.getagps.com

Checking for my own curiosity on the latest GPS units, I see GetaGPS currently has the Vista for $220 and the color version for $110 more. For the GPS itself, you may also find find it easiest to just go to Yahoo Shopping and get the lowest price from a retailer you trust.

The color version is very interesting if it really can do color in the sun as Garmin claims - I'd verify in a store somewhere. (My cell phone also had that same bold claim, but I think they meant if you're in the shade with your hand over your eyes and the unit.) With the direction beeps and such it may be worth the extra $100. Note the black and white is actually a gray scale and is just as easily visible as my bike computer in the sun. (FYI, one of the six major eTrex display screens is a highly customizable Trip Computer.) The B&W version may be just fine for the lower cost.

One additional word on the competition. I didn't go for a Magellan because they were a little too big to really use on a bike for their models at the time. They also didn't seem to have nearly as good a software as the Garmin, which is superb. But I found a web site that measured their antennaes to have about 2 dB better reception than the eTrex. That's not that much in the scheme of things with reception signal varying perhaps 10-20 dB due to natural influences, but definitely noticable. But then the larger Garmin units also had better reception because they also use the larger Helix antennae.

I feel like I should take you out to dinner for all your advice! Thanks again... I put in a bid for a Vista on e-bay. Once I get the product, I'm sure I'll have a few more questions as some point. Thanks again!