View Full Version : Frame Building Forum FAQ


Walt
10-26-2007, 11:46 AM
Welcome to the new (as of October '07) MTBR Frame Building forum. I imagine we'll be getting a lot of similar questions here, so I'm in the process of doing an FAQ.

A few notes:
-All standard MTBR rules apply for dealers/manufacturers/bike industry insiders. A complete guideline can be found at http://www.mtbr.com/messageboard/postingguidelines.shtml#manuguidelines
-All the other usual forum rules apply too. Let's keep things friendly and constructive - this is NOT the place to come to bash someone or some company (for whatever reason). Constructive criticism and questions are always ok, of course.

I'll add questions and answers that come up in the forum to the FAQ when appropriate.

<b>FAQs follow, threaded for your convenience</b>

Walt
10-27-2007, 09:02 AM
Read, read, read. You can go the self-taught route, or you can enroll at one of many framebuilding clinics/schools around the US. Here's a good thread with a semi-comprehensive list:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=217487

You may also want to check out some of the following sites:
http://www.frameforum.net - many pro and amateur framebuilders hang out here.
http://www.phred.org (click on the "framebuilders" link to search the archive).
http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/ - A good intro to lugged framebuilding with pictures.
http://www.richardsachs.com/howframesaremade.html - "How frames are made" by tons of different builders! A goldmine of info.
Many professional framebuilders have extensive websites and blogs that have lots of useful ideas and info as well.

Walt
10-27-2007, 09:03 AM
Realistically, no. Finding such a position will require that you make lots of personal connections within the cycling industry and/or get very lucky. Very few framebuilders have the time or inclination to deal with an apprentice. Posting "want ad" style requests for apprenticeships on this forum or elsewhere is extremely unlikely to work.

If you really want to cut your teeth working in the US cycling industry, look at finding a position at a small manufacturer (ie, one with multiple employees) where you can spend some time sweeping the floors and answering the phone before they let you out on the shop floor.

Remember that building frames for yourself and perhaps your friends doesn't mean becoming a full-time professional. There are many hobby builders who enjoy framebuilding as a hobby and make their money (and usually a lot more of it) at a "regular" job.

Walt
10-27-2007, 09:04 AM
Here are some links. Your best bet is to CALL and ask to talk to the head honcho, most of the time they'll be pleased to give you advice on starting out, and sell you *exactly* what you need, so that you won't have to worry about forgetting to order essential supplies. Please do not waste these good peoples' time if you're not serious about trying your hand at building!

http://www.henryjames.com - Ask to talk with Hank. Henry James carries True Temper tubing and Henry James lugs and frame fixtures. They are very friendly and will be happy to help you with advice as well.
http://www.novacycles.com - Nova carries Columbus and Fairing tubing, a wide variety of lugs and small parts, and basic framebuilding supplies.
http://www.bringheli.com/ - Joe has a very thick accent and is sometimes hard to understand, but has TONS of knowledge and carries a wide variety of tubing and tools.
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/ - Wicks is an aircraft supply company, but it's a great place to buy straight-gauge 4130 steel to practice on (or, heck, build a frame from).

Yeah, ok, but I'm dead broke - what's the cheapest way to get basic framebuilding materials?

Go dig through the trash! 70s vintage lugged road frames are, quite literally, free for the taking at landfills, garage sales, and recycling centers everywhere. They are great to cut apart and inspect, then attempt to braze back together. Of course, you'll still need some basic brazing supplies, but you can be set up to build frames for under $500 if you're thrifty and smart about it.

Walt
10-27-2007, 09:05 AM
I don't have an answer for you on this one, but please take the time to do some searching on the various sites mentioned above. You'll find that this subject has been argued to death (on various MTBR forums as well). If you *really* think you have something new to say, please feel free to post. Suffice to say that most reasonable people agree that pretty much all the materials in common use (steel, titanium, aluminum, carbon fiber) are great for building really fun, safe bikes.

Walt
10-27-2007, 09:21 AM
First, remember that bicycle handling is pretty subjectively experienced - what may seem "twitchy" to you might feel nice and stable to another rider who has different preferences, expectations, or fit issues. Arguing about whether the geometry of a particular bike is "good" for a given purpose or not is a bit like trying to convince someone that vanilla is "better" than chocolate - it's a judgement call to a significant extent. The beauty of custom frames is that, if you understand some basics, you can predict some things about how the bike will probably feel.

First, check out some vocabulary: http://anvilbikes.com/?news_ID=49&catID=3

The most important number to consider when comparing mountain bikes is usually trail (read that description above again, or check out http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/trail.html for a little bit easier explanation) - which you can think of as a lever that tries to keep the front wheel straight as the bike moves along. The longer the lever (the greater the trail number), the more stable the bike will be at high speed, but the less stable it will be at low speed (low speed instability is often referred to as wheel flop).

Of course, all those other variables come into play as well. And there are a LOT of them. A good design will take all of them into consideration, as well as the proportions of the rider, to arrive at a bike that fits and handles in the desired manner.

In general, when discussing any particular frame geometry variable, keep in mind that it's only one of many - every variable contributes to the overall handling of the bike, and discussing one in isolation is usually not that productive.

Walt
11-12-2007, 11:13 AM
If you're strapped for cash, here's a list of the very most basic stuff you'll need to build a fillet brazed or lugged frame. If you're careful and precise enough, you can do a great job with just this stuff. If you're in a hurry and sloppy, expect to get something not too straight and not too nice. Like anything, you get out of framebuilding what you put in, and there's no free lunch.

Item 1: Oxy/Acetylene tanks, regulator, and torch. Go to your local welding supply for these. Keep in mind that if you've never worked with acetylene, it's REALLY DANGEROUS. You should take a basic welding/brazing safety course, or at the very least, read up about handling these very flammable gases online. Expect to spend about $500. If you don't have a well-ventilated area available, consider purchasing a mask and filters to protect your lungs - the fumes from brazing are very hazardous.

Item 2: Set of half-round fine tooth files, hacksaw. 10", 12", and 14" will allow you to cut almost any miter you might need to on a bike frame, because the radius of the files matches up nicely to 1 1/8", 1 1/4", and 1 1/2" tubes. Remember to only file by pushing, if you're pulling the file back across the tube, you're just dulling the teeth. A hacksaw is good for roughly cutting out a big hunk of the material you need to remove, hence saving you time with your files.

Item 3: Low-fuming bronze (I recommend 1/8" rods, but smaller ones are usable as well) and All-State 1113 flux. There are lots of other options here, but these items are available at any welding supply and will work well for building bike frames. A pound of LFB will last you 3 or 4 frames.

Item 4: Lugs (if you want to build a lug bike) and tubes/dropouts/brazeons. See the "supplies" section of the FAQ for advice on where to get tubes.

Item 5: Rulers, tape measures, string, true/dished front and rear wheels. These will be your alignment tools. There are also lots of ways to make fixtures and jigs, but I'm going to assume that you'll do this bike without one to save money. It's easier to build a lugged bike without a fixture than a fillet brazed one, but either is possible with care and attention to detail.

Item 5.5: Simple drafting equipment. Read this link for more info on how to draw up a frame by hand: http://www.ivycycles.com/Tutorial.html

Item 6: Workspace. You'll want, at a minimum, a workbench and vise to hold your tubes. Basements are usually bad, at least for the actual brazing part of the process, because they don't have any ventilation.

Walt
11-24-2007, 10:11 AM
Read this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=359918

If you need to add a rear disc mount, follow the same instructions, but use a rear wheel (duh) and think about adding a strut between the chainstay and seatstay (see picture) to reinforce things. In this case, I've used a piece of an old disc rotor, but a small piece of tubing or even some 3/16" plate would work fine as well. It's easy to break the seatstay with a disc mount if you don't spread the load out a bit.

Walt
01-13-2008, 09:41 AM
I'm trying to restrart an old tradition from frameforum, in which anyone who has done a cool project posts about it (including pictures if possible) on Friday. It could be your first attempt at mitering a tube, or your latest polished stainless lug 953 wonderbike - doesn't matter, just something that you're proud of. Logically, most of us aren't working quite as hard as we could be on Friday, and we're in a good mood, and we've (hopefully) done a long week of good work, hopefully some of which is worthy of being posted. So post some of that cool stuff and share your expertise (or excitement, if you're still getting the expertise).

You're welcome to post anytime, of course. I just think the friday tradition is nice.

-Walt

Walt
03-26-2008, 05:16 PM
For some interesting discussion, see this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4252212#poststop