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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! XPE Helmet light

    I have had these Q5 XPE for a couple of weeks now and have been wondering what to do with them . I did think about using 4 with a dual MCE light .

    Then rummaging around in the warehouse of the place I work I came across this aluminium curtain rail thingy so borrowed an off cut for research .

    Znomit did a build using a similar extrusion

    After attacking it with a measure and looking at the spec for the carclo 10 mm square optics . it was made for this build I think.

    now which build is going to be the best











    It has come to the point when it is the driver that takes up most space so thinking the maxflex can go live in with the battery
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 01-08-2009 at 10:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    Second one i think,a bit more usable area to heatsink perhaps?
    Also you might be able to lense it like a seca or have a high/low setup without it looking uneven.

  3. #3
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    My nod goes the horizontal configuration, especially after seeing that side angle shot with the helmet. Very low-profile, looks great.

  4. #4
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    Looks very clean and nice, but I too am pretty sure you need more cooling. Remember it will have to dissipate about 15W it you are driving them at 600mA. I was surprised how hot the XP-E got even when properly heatsinked. I had it on a 450g copper heatsink and still it would get burning hot when you pressed your finger on top of it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gillestugan
    Looks very clean and nice, but I too am pretty sure you need more cooling.
    +1

    I am sure you already have some ideas but a slug between the two halves of the curtain rail and some old computer heat sinks on the ends might be feasible.

  6. #6
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    It is still in the thinking stages and I like the low profile look
    what it needs is an aluminium peak on the helmet ..

    yep @ 500ma it warms up pretty quick

    will have to wait and see what the optics are like when they arrive before the final light is decided

  7. #7
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    I'm also considering building a bigger version of the Pipe Light using the next size up pipe fiitting to be able to put 9 XPE's driven 3 parallel in series fed by a maxflex.
    My problem is there are no dimensional drawings on the Cutter website of the 10mm MCPCB to tell me if the indentations on the pcb are made for the Carclo 10412 etc lenses to fit over or do the legs of the lens fit into the two holes of the pcb.
    Can anyone confirm or post the correct dimensions please.

  8. #8
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    I cant wait to see this build! 8 of them you really are mad! I was thinking of using 3 and doing a 1/2 scale achesalot build. I am sure you will post some sort of beam shot since you always do. I hope the 10mm squares are nice. Any plans to try any of the other xp-e optics? The khatod .5" x 1.5" strip looks like it could be trimmed down to 10mm.

  9. #9
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    With a few well placed cuts you could bend it to match the curve of the helmet.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by formantjim
    My problem is there are no dimensional drawings on the Cutter website of the 10mm MCPCB to tell me if the indentations on the pcb are made for the Carclo 10412 etc lenses to fit over or do the legs of the lens fit into the two holes of the pcb.
    Can anyone confirm or post the correct dimensions please.
    Looking at the data sheet for the 10412 optic the legs just sit around the 10 mm board .
    I cant see them going into any of the indents as there are only 2 opposing each other.


    Bikerjay.
    You are indeed correct in your analysis

    The final build will depend on what the beam looks like from these wee beasties
    I have ordered the 10417 I did not notice the 10412 had a better efficiency

    Beam shots will be posted when they are here
    No plans yet to try any other optics


    Znomit

    Nice idea but could look a bit messy
    but it may be 2 * 3 XPE fitted to the helmet peak

  11. #11
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    This is really interesting....those things look tiny!! Should be interesting to see what you can come up with Chris

    I reckon I could modify my housing to get, maybe, 6 of those in...without too much trouble. How could they be driven??

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    what it needs is an aluminium peak on the helmet ..
    Or and aluminium helmet!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    This is really interesting....those things look tiny!! Should be interesting to see what you can come up with Chris

    I reckon I could modify my housing to get, maybe, 6 of those in...without too much trouble. How could they be driven??
    I am very undecided at the moment Steve..

    hell only 6 in your housing
    I just had a look and 14 would squeeze in
    but 12 would be realistic and a maxflex or hipflex to power them



    Oh that is the shotblasted and anodised one


    Or you could go 9 xpe and the 20 mm triples Now that could be something Else .
    A bit less heat than 3 mce and maybe a better beam

  14. #14
    A waste of time it is is
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Or you could go 9 xpe and the 20 mm triples Now that could be something Else .
    A bit less heat than 3 mce and maybe a better beam
    But isn't the best angle for the 20mm triple a half angle of 18 degrees, ie total angle of 36 degrees? That makes it more of a flood. No joy with sourceing small quantities of the Polymer Optics range?

    On another note Chris, I took the beast out on Wednesday night for the first ride. 38 showed up for a social ride but we were back at the pub before it was truely dark so didn't get to use it. Video this week I promise

  15. #15
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    Chris,
    Holy cow...14?? Really?? That would be good! I like the sound of the 3 triples with the 20 mm optic...I think I'll do a bit of research...they could well fit straight into the housing.
    Steve

  16. #16
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    Optics arrived today

    Here you go Steve 14 fit easy




    Boy are the tiny devils it is going to be like brain surgery this build.



    not dark yet

  17. #17
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    The Compulsery ceiling shots

    I have cobbled a test rig up for some beamshots .

    have I mentioned they are darn tiny things .

    one single XPE and Carclo 10417 narrow beam very small thing
    the tapes are 1 mtre long and 2.2 metres from the microscopic light



    and this is 4 of the little beggers ,



    when it gets proper dark I will wander out and get a shot on my test trail with these
    nano lights

  18. #18
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    Nutter!
    Thats more like it!
    Perfect light my arse!
    Tommo.

  19. #19
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    Bloody Hell....That would be some kinda light!!

    Are you going to have a go at doing all 14?? I reckon you should But the wiring might be interesting

    I think there are going to be some VERY small lights coming out of the TroutShed soon..

    Keep up the good work Chris

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    Bloody Hell....That would be some kinda light!!

    Are you going to have a go at doing all 14?? I reckon you should But the wiring might be interesting

    I think there are going to be some VERY small lights coming out of the TroutShed soon..

    Keep up the good work Chris

    I have only got 8 XPE s so need to maximise what I do with them at the moment I have so many ideas I would need 100 to play with.

    ref the small lights I just wish you lived nearer I would like to get together and design something really radical I think these are to small for my manual lathing skills and crap mini mill.

    these things are small enough to put on your glasses never mind helmet.

    There is more wow factor from these than the MCE and 4 XPE with these 10 mm optics are IMHO better than 1 mce and boom reflector .

    ok on to the rather rushed beam shots I struggled a bit because the optics were not fixed and just sat on the leds.

    I tried to cover 2 leds up here so this is 2 up



    this was a bit easier to do the 4 up



    I have to say these shots do not do the these justice and I am very impressed with the performance for such a tiny package.
    there is no wasted light out the sides it all goes into the beam

    I think if you put 4 or 6 lined up on a helmet peak as tiny seperates you could taylor the perfect helmet light

  21. #21
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    The hotspot looks very similar to the boom SS in the wall beamshot. But then there is much less spill.

    Ooo, I want, I want, I want! They look so good when placed in a row like you have done. And the optics are also very shallow, so you will have much more room behind them for drivers and stuff. (if placed in a housing)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gillestugan
    The hotspot looks very similar to the boom SS in the wall beamshot. But then there is much less spill.

    Ooo, I want, I want, I want! They look so good when placed in a row like you have done. And the optics are also very shallow, so you will have much more room behind them for drivers and stuff. (if placed in a housing)

    As you may have gathered I am very excited by these and will have to endure a few hours in my freezing garage to come up with a housing .

    These are the Q5 s so the R2 will be a bit brighter but as you see with only 4 they throw to the trees at the back which are 75 mtrs away where the single boom struggles to get half that distance .

    Watch this space there is something really cool on the drawing board but will need Deesta`s CNC to do it justice , if he is willing and able to help

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    As you may have gathered I am very excited by these and will have to endure a few hours in my freezing garage to come up with a housing .

    These are the Q5 s so the R2 will be a bit brighter but as you see with only 4 they throw to the trees at the back which are 75 mtrs away where the single boom struggles to get half that distance .

    Watch this space there is something really cool on the drawing board but will need Deesta`s CNC to do it justice , if he is willing and able to help
    75 Meters of throw! ( 246ft.) Duh....I'm speechless. A six or eight setup could make a nice compact helmet light. Can't wait to see what the commercial bike light builders will do with these.

  24. #24
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    WOW

    I have to put the electronics with a remote switch now. There will not be any room for the electronics even in a well cooled light.

    Now I am really wondering, will a 5up 35mm be any good, it could easily be retrofitted to every ones 35mm cutter kits.

    Even the amoeba will soon see portly. Also this has got me wondering about the 20mm round triple, could make for some great dinotte style lights.

  25. #25
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    Willing...yes!! Able....depends on what it is

  26. #26
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    Bloody freezing in my garage

    I have just spent the last 4 hours wrapped up in my garage chewing a helmet light from a lump of ali.

    It was going to be kept secret untill finished but I am so excited about these little babies I had to share it .

    I will put up a few piccys

    I have gone for 6 XPEs as it makes a nice compact light and is ideal for the Maxflex to power from my 14.8 v batteries and I can run them at full chat if required







    I have tried to make it from one piece so the whole housing is the heat sink .
    and there is 10 mm of solid ali behind the leds which I will leave for now but will if needed cut cooling slots if it runs hot . the Maxflex has its own heat sink built in so it will monitor the leds too .

    then how to mount it to a helmet the thing was to keep it low profile and most mounting brackets add height .

    so I built in some rails and slots for a 25mm wide velcro strap the rails hold it just off the helmet so air can flow under
    the total height on the helmet is 25 mm so pretty low profile. not bad for a 1000 lumen helmet light

    It also has a M5 threaded hole in the bottom so a bar mount can be fitted







    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 01-11-2009 at 12:19 AM.

  27. #27
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    I wish that I had more time to tinker with aluminium. Had seven rebels and polymer optics just waiting for a housing for about a month now! Children and expensive wife usually get time/money first...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    Willing...yes!! Able....depends on what it is

    This is where you come in Steve I get this one working and post it to you (Not to keep ) and between us we make it better and you then make some for all the folk who find they want to build one on here and else where .

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumphumper
    I wish that I had more time to tinker with aluminium. Had seven rebels and polymer optics just waiting for a housing for about a month now! Children and expensive wife usually get time/money first...

    been there , kids now grown up and wife is glad to get me out of the way

  30. #30
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    Yet again Troutie, that is amazing.

    But where are the beam shots for this little beast?

    Ok, for a serious question, have you measured the vf or the XP-E? I am wondering if it is lower than claimed on the Cree data sheets in a similar way that the MC-E was / is

  31. #31
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    Well done trout. It will be very interesting to see the beam out of this one.

    Those square optics make for a really clean looking profile.

    The one piece design looks like it should do a nice job with the heat.

  32. #32
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    Is anyone worried about heat with these multi xp-e builds? Won't 6 of these in a case the size of a AA battery get pretty damn hot? there's not much surface area there.

    Love the idea of a tiny DIY light that blows away the big expensive commercial stuff, but not if my helmet is dripping flaming polystyrene on my head

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimZinVT
    Is anyone worried about heat with these multi xp-e builds? Won't 6 of these in a case the size of a AA battery get pretty damn hot? there's not much surface area there.

    Love the idea of a tiny DIY light that blows away the big expensive commercial stuff, but not if my helmet is dripping flaming polystyrene on my head

    JZ
    I am waiting to see how trouts design goes. I have a feeling that it will be fine while ever he is moving but it will probably trip if he slows up at all. Keep pedaling trout!

  34. #34
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    There's a "heat dissipation" thread going, and they're talking about a rule-of-thumb of either 1sq" or 3sq" of surface area per watt. Seems like this is way under that....any plans to cut grooves or fins into the case Mr. Trout? (trout fins? :-)

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26

    Ok, for a serious question, have you measured the vf or the XP-E? I am wondering if it is lower than claimed on the Cree data sheets in a similar way that the MC-E was / is
    Look here at post 20 and 24

  36. #36
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    Love your work Troutie!
    Brisbane, AU

  37. #37
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    This is where you come in Steve I get this one working and post it to you (Not to keep ) and between us we make it better and you then make some for all the folk who find they want to build one on here and else where..

    Sounds good to me Chris...looks like it could be an amazing little package!!!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    Yet again Troutie, that is amazing.

    But where are the beam shots for this little beast?

    Ok, for a serious question, have you measured the vf or the XP-E? I am wondering if it is lower than claimed on the Cree data sheets in a similar way that the MC-E was / is


    Cheers Stu

    Beam shots coming soon
    Salty has beaton me to it where the vfs are

    for this light with the 6 xpe @ 750ma 18.22v hi / lo 16.61v
    @ 500ma 18.16v 16.57v
    @ 350ma 17.8 v 16.49v
    -------------------------------------------

    JimZinVT
    I am not worried because this light is for me and the maxflex will be well heatsunk to the housing as it has its own little pillar machined in the housing . so it will be monitering temps.
    also keeping things cool here in the uk is not a problem our night time ambients in summer never top 14c much .

    I have areas I can add heatsinking fins too and also fin the solid sink behind the leds
    and the lid hasn not been made so may do some fins there also .

    I did think about just 4 XPE but there are enough quads around and 6 in series hit the maxflex sweet spot for a 14.8 li ion perfectly ..

    It also has a M5 threaded hole in the bottom for attachment of a bar mount to keep it versatile , and it Troutie style an aluminium one then makes the bars a superb heat sink as a few previous lights have proved.



    I have read the heat dissi thingy thread and am the suck it and see type of guy
    I understand heat and heatsinking but all that goes way over my head.

    I have seen this working and doubt it will see full power except on the downhills.
    ------------------------------

    Ta Hoots


    -----------------------------------

    Cheers Steve I am hoping between us we can do a housing from this that ticks all the boxes

    crazy bright with good beam
    good heat disipation
    light weight
    low profile
    good looking
    easy to build up
    and easy for you to CNC with only 2 parts

    Troutie off to do some beam shots now
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 01-11-2009 at 12:20 AM.

  39. #39
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    ... and if we just ... BEAMSHOTS and I like them

    after my Sunday morning lie in till 06.30 it was up and out into minus 3c and gales to take some shots in the woods before daylight.
    it was nearly full moon so not too dark.
    these piccys taken at the MTBR standard settings


    woods in moonlight


    Edited due to driver error and unknown MA rating for these beam shots


    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 01-11-2009 at 09:07 AM.

  40. #40
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    There really doesn't appear to be too much difference between the levels judging from the pics (I opened the thread in 3 tabs so i could flick between the different pics to compare them). That will make for fantastic long run times as low beam looks like it will do a stella job.

    Big kudos for braving the weather to take the pics btw. Much appreciated Mr Trout!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocean breathes salty
    There really doesn't appear to be too much difference between the levels judging from the pics (I opened the thread in 3 tabs so i could flick between the different pics to compare them). That will make for fantastic long run times as low beam looks like it will do a stella job.

    Big kudos for braving the weather to take the pics btw. Much appreciated Mr Trout!


    I did wonder about that too Salty
    I wonder if my Nflex was not getting enough volts from the makita 18 v pack
    we will see when the maxflex gets fitted. but still pretty impressive at low current

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I did wonder about that too Salty
    I wonder if my Nflex was not getting enough volts from the makita 18 v pack
    we will see when the maxflex gets fitted. but still pretty impressive at low current
    That might explain it. If it proves to be the case, then high beam may turn out to be devastating

  43. #43
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well It has gained a bit of weight

    A bit more messing around in the garage and the light has gained a bit of weight
    and better heat sinking I hope .

    I made a lid and incorperated some fins and extended it over the leds to help transfer some heat away .

    and then I had the little step underneath and I had a memory chip heatsink in the things I wont chuck away it may come in Box.

    so with a bit of sanding on the belt sander we are making progress but we are up to 99 gms and still have to add a switch and power socket




  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    A bit more messing around in the garage and the light has gained a bit of weight and better heat sinking I hope .

    I made a lid and incorporated some fins and extended it over the leds to help transfer some heat away ....
    I like those little Torx fasteners. Have you been cannibalizing hard-disk drives again?
    Brisbane, AU

  45. #45
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    Looking good Mr T...

  46. #46
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    I take it you used 6 of the Tight Narrow optics as this is mainly a helmet light? Looking at the Cutter site I see they have a Plain medium listed with the same half angle! That confuses me because I was thinking of a build with 4 spots and a couple of mediums to provide some flood. Anyone know if the Cutter info is erroneous? I don't really want to send off and get optics that are no use.

    [Edit]
    Found the Carclo data sheet and there is little or no difference between the Tight and the Plain Medium - in fact Carclo call them both Medium.

  47. #47
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    It is looking really good
    I think you would be really scarry with a 5 axed lathe.
    It is always exciting to follow your projects. How do you drill your inside corners away at the end of the lens section?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    I like those little Torx fasteners. Have you been cannibalizing hard-disk drives again?
    No Hoots they are just M3 button head hex in stainless
    and the back are M2




    and now a horror pic , I am glad it happened underneath on top would have been a disaster
    first a 1.6mm drill bit broke , no worries I have another, great hole no 2 fine then the bloody m2 tap broke in the next , and then on the other side I did not tap the first hole deap enough and the bolt stuck and rounded the hex off It was time for a cup of tea and quiet reflection.





    More10
    I hope this answers your question I just drilled a 3 mm hole past the corner
    and there is a lens cover to go in yet.so just left those round


  49. #49
    A waste of time it is is
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    It's refreshing to see you are human after all.

    As for the front pic, did the cold effect your ability to silicone neatly or is that the legs of the lenses that can be seen on the edges of the clear part of the optic?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilt
    I take it you used 6 of the Tight Narrow optics as this is mainly a helmet light? Looking at the Cutter site I see they have a Plain medium listed with the same half angle! That confuses me because I was thinking of a build with 4 spots and a couple of mediums to provide some flood. Anyone know if the Cutter info is erroneous? I don't really want to send off and get optics that are no use.

    [Edit]
    Found the Carclo data sheet and there is little or no difference between the Tight and the Plain Medium - in fact Carclo call them both Medium.

    Neilt
    Yes I used the 10417 lens front .
    I got a tray from carclo so have a few spare , for sale if anyone wants any .

    I had the very same idea when doing the build about a couple of wider ones that would be a killer I think.

    I just need to pursuade Deesta to do me a better one

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    It's refreshing to see you are human after all.

    As for the front pic, did the cold effect your ability to silicone neatly or is that the legs of the lenses that can be seen on the edges of the clear part of the optic?

    Emu you have not seen my failure bin It is good that they keep making smaller optics
    so I can reuse some of the duffs.

    no silicon in there just the smallest blob of epoxy on each leg base . nano glueing.
    the mess wilh the silicon is to come when the face goes on

    that is the leg tops

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Neilt
    Yes I used the 10417 lens front .
    I got a tray from carclo so have a few spare , for sale if anyone wants any .

    I had the very same idea when doing the build about a couple of wider ones that would be a killer I think.
    Excellent. My little plan to build something in one of the little Hammond cases looks feasible then. I could get 8 optics in there, in two rows of 4, but I think that would be a touch too much. 6 should be OK, with some additional heatsinks attached to the top of the case.

    I feel an order coming on

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilt
    Excellent. My little plan to build something in one of the little Hammond cases looks feasible then. I could get 8 optics in there, in two rows of 4, but I think that would be a touch too much. 6 should be OK, with some additional heatsinks attached to the top of the case.

    I feel an order coming on
    Neilt
    are you in the uk . and if you are ordering from cutters
    then maybe you could just order the wide optics and I will swop 4 wide for 4 of my narrows

    I was thinking the eliptical

  54. #54
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    Good job! all MaxFlexed up now

    The XPE light is all wired and working now , I dont know why but when I do these lights
    there seems to be loads of room , untill it comes to putting the wires and stuff in then it becomes a struggle to fit it all in .
    but it did just fit in






    and one of the maxflex glued to its heat sink which bolts in


  55. #55
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    Good work Chris, there doesn't look like much room in there

  56. #56
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    Troutie, you just keep on pushing the edge! Good going!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    Good work Chris, there doesn't look like much room in there

    It is a bit tight and the Mk 2 version will have more room and be a bit thinner with better heat sinking .

    what is spoiling the design is the size of the switch I like the waterproof Apem switches

    I could go small and use a micro switch but this means more faffing and then loses the universal appeal .


    I have just done a tally on the cost of the bought bits for this light and they come out quite good in these credit crunchy days.


    XPE R2 s £4.69 - $ 7.01 * 6 = £28.14 / $ 42.06
    Carclo optics £ 0.60 $ 0.89 * 6 = £ 3.60 / $ 5.34
    maxflex £ 22.00 / $ 32.51
    switch / socket / other bits estimate £ 20.00 / $ 29.55
    ===============
    £ 73.74 / $ 109.46
    no postage n packing in there .

    Not bad for a potential 1000 lm light

    when compared to a MR11 R2 quad kit from cutters £ 65.82 / $98.43.
    and still need switch socket and sundries £ 20.00/ $ 29.55
    =============
    £ 85.82 / $ 127.98


    Any way all done switch/power socket wired and ready to go for its first ride tonight

    and weighing in at 105 grammes including helmet mount strap






    and as Znomit suggested over on CPF the MK2 will have enough room for a couple of red leds in the back also

  58. #58
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    Troutie, your light just keeps looking better and better. I was going to do the math to figure the voltage drops and then figure what battery to use with the maxflex and then I thought...why not just ask? Besides, I figured you will post with some more beam photos of the first ride so why not just keep you talking. What voltage and type battery are you using to drive this light? Will you helmet mount the battery or just run a longer wire to a pocket or pack? Oh, one more thing...I noticed you mounted a bit of green something under the lights...is this for more heat sinking or what?

  59. #59
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    I hope you remembered to remove the AA battery before you rode....or is it a special kind of heatsink???

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    I hope you remembered to remove the AA battery before you rode....or is it a special kind of heatsink???

    That is one of the new Li uranusium batteries from chernoble will last a lifetime



    Cat
    Thanks

    I am using 14.8 li ion 2400mah pack in a small camera bag that just clips on the camelbak strap

    I am not keen on the battery on the helmet seems to unbalance it

    but I guess you could use 11.1v or even lower but that would make the Maxflex work pretty hard.

    no the is it green stuff is the soft bit of heavy duty velcro which my previous helmet light uses I left it on for insulation to stop my head burning

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    I hope you remembered to remove the AA battery before you rode....or is it a special kind of heatsink???
    Nope, that AA battery is his power-supply!
    Brisbane, AU

  62. #62
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    Troutie again lives up to his signature.

    The 3-up Khatod lens from Cutter looks like it would work well for a small Hammond case project.

    Also, Hammond makes a heat sink box that, conveniently enough, has rails in the bottom for t-nut mounts. This would be very convenient for non-destructive mounting of the Cateye or other quick-release brackets.

    However, the smallest model is 100dx90wx51h, so it defeats some of the size advantage of the XPE. It might work very well for MCE / P7 or multi-XRE lights though.

    http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/531609.pdf

    Troutie's headed down the right path. I think the best way to do XPE's will be with the 10mm cutter boards set into a machined block sinking direct to atmosphere. By direct-mounting the boards to the block, then running the wires individually through small holes through the block out to the driver (or even remote-mounting the driver/switch nearby Minewt-style or at least between the battery and light housing) the housing design could concentrate on finning and heat management in the smallest possible package.

    Very rough idea:


  63. #63
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    sorry for the high-jack troutie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzz541
    However, the smallest model is 100dx90wx51h, so it defeats some of the size advantage of the XPE.
    This type of box can actually be found in smaller sizes. I've been looking at this 64X40X30mm for use with XP-Es, it can be ordered anodised in different colours.

    Comparing data sheets the PL1153 actually have more throw than the round 25mm 4*XP-E.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzz541
    Found it on Farnell...
    When I die, I want to go like my Grandad, peacefully, in my sleep - not like his passengers - shouting and screaming!

  65. #65
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    Upset Traumatic first ride report

    This was it after a whirlwind build and nearly freezing to death machining the XPE light
    It was time to give it a trail test ride .

    I hooked up with my mate and we decided on a ride we have not done in a year which has a really cool downhill section inside a tunnel of rhodedendren bushes ( spelling a bit iffy)
    with switchbacks for about 1 kilometer it would be the perfect trail for a bit of video

    every think is cool when we get to the trail head
    We have some big guns for lights
    I have a dual MCE-boom ss with 2 R2s on the bars and the new 6 xpe light on my helmet .

    my mate has my triple MCE with boom ss reflectors .
    and my old quad R2 medium Cute optic .

    Every thing fitted and working great just need to sort the Helmet cam out and off we go
    No the helmet cam is still at home with the battery on charge

    Ok we can just enjoy the ride so of up the easy climb which is a nice grassy trail
    Or was last time It had changed in to a swampy nightmare and with in half a mile we were of and pushing through the gloop .
    Then we hif the fog this would have been perfect for a beam shot of the lights if we had the camera .

    then some where in the swampy foggy hell we took a wrong trail which added 3/4 mile to the route which does not sound bad but we pushed all the way to the top .
    how does water stay on a hillside.

    Then it was downhill great hit full beam and rip it , full beam was Baaaad in the fog
    in fact any beam was bad .
    so we struggled down the liquified trail to the tunnel which had been totally destroyed by the wind and meant hiking the bikes over the fallen trees this is not a good day .

    That was the end of the bad trail riding / pushing and it was fire road back .
    this was the only chance to hit full beam and speed .

    Full Beam Oh the lights that is what this is about .

    I would like to be able to tell you that the XPE light was good but sadly I cannot because it was not good .















































    IT WAS AWESOMELY / AMAZINGLY FANTASTICALY BRILLIANT

    It blew away the triple mce for beam and lit the trail great
    the beam shape is like a huge oblong with very little wasted light
    and when compared to the triple mce which ok is good but only because of the sheer volume of light scattered every where .

    The double mce with 2 R2s was better and a really good light very usable
    and the 2 R2s were handy in the fog so it was good to switch off the mces
    But this combo has 10 emitters not 6 .

    I have found my nearly perfect light and will have one on the bars with a mix of optics
    You can have the MCE and I would happily swap them for some XPE


    Sorry no beam shots or video but nexttime


    Get some you wont be disapointed this 6 up has the wow factor I was expecting from the MCEs

    Sorry for the drivel in this post but it is all true

  66. #66
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    I just completed my cutter order

  67. #67
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    GAWD! I nearly had a heart attack reading that - having just ordered all those XPEs last night at great expense.

    Now, of course, I can't wait for Cutter's to post the goodies

  68. #68
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    Sounds like an eventful ride Chris...

    So, you've found your perfect light? Well, for this week anyway lol

    Looking forward to Friday, can't wait to have a look at the little bugger!!!

    Steve

  69. #69
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    some pics of the MK2 Troutfin light

    just pics very tired after muddy slog





  70. #70
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    trout-man...Your thoughts on a 4 XP-E light build? It seems that would fit my battery needs better. This would be for the hbars.
    Blog Ramblings
    West Coast writer for twentynineinches.com

  71. #71
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    Trout, it didn't look like you were using a cross-slide vice to get the finning machined into the block of Al. How were you doing it? Were you cutting the fins vertically as the drill head went down? What bit were you using to do it?

    You are getting me all inspired again.... STOP IT! My wallet can't afford it

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocean breathes salty
    Trout, it didn't look like you were using a cross-slide vice to get the finning machined into the block of Al. How were you doing it? Were you cutting the fins vertically as the drill head went down? What bit were you using to do it?

    You are getting me all inspired again.... STOP IT! My wallet can't afford it

    It is a milling machine so has a 2 axis table so the slots are milled not drilled


  73. #73
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    I had exactly the same sinking feeling reading Lord Trouties post as I too last night ordered a bunch of XPE's.

    Lord Troutie is our saviour!

  74. #74
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    Chris,
    If you need any cutting tools, let me know before Friday as I have a few lying around that may be of use to you Got all sorts of goodies.....slot drills, end mills, solid carbide....all sizes!!!

  75. #75
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    Neilt & formantjim

    GOTCHA

  76. #76
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    If you're after increased surface area more, thinner, fins would be the go .. no?

    What about just knurling the whole thing?

    What you really want is a heat conductive zeolite pad on the top. Lots of surface area! Clay also has a huge surface area -- did you notice a cooling effect when you were waist deep in the stuff?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by glowinthedark
    If you're after increased surface area more, thinner, fins would be the go .. no?

    What about just knurling the whole thing?

    What you really want is a heat conductive zeolite pad on the top. Lots of surface area! Clay also has a huge surface area -- did you notice a cooling effect when you were waist deep in the stuff?

    I only had a 3mm slot drill so that is the spacing
    No cooling worries I am happy it works on the trail , dont need that many lumens on my desk .
    It is crazy bright @ maxflex level 3
    full power is for the lumen war and fast riding.

    And funny you mention it but ploughing through the viscous clay had me overheating



    Steve yes please you cant have too many tools .

    I bet you can beat the 6 hours it took to mill that out

  78. #78
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    No problemo....I'll sort out a selection for you

  79. #79
    A waste of time it is is
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    If thats the crappy mini mill you have I want to swap garages. Hell, even if its not, I wanta swap anyway

    Can you expand the pics of version 2 so I can see where the lid starts and ends, it will make it easy for me to copy?

    Do you think I'd get away with running 4 in series from a 12v battery?

    Thanks

    Stuart, ordering milling bits today for my cross slide vice and drill press

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I would like to be able to tell you that the XPE light was good but sadly I cannot because it was not good .
    Haha, you are crazy! You really got me. I was thinking "did he add those empty lines to make the next post start on a new page?" I usually hate smilies, but that small orchestra was hilarious.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I only had a 3mm slot drill so that is the spacing
    I am soooo far out of my area of expertise (not that I really have one) ... BUT ... just coz the slot drill is 3mm doesn't mean the spacing between the slots has to be 3mm .. does it?



    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    And funny you mention it but ploughing through the viscous clay had me overheating
    Yeah. I was being a smartarse .. couldn't find a smiley for that.

    Looks amazing though. Nice job as usual.

    I have this mental image of one section of the UK being visible from the International Space Station solely as a result of all the Trout Lights being turned on simultaneously.


  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by glowinthedark
    I am soooo far out of my area of expertise (not that I really have one) ... BUT ... just coz the slot drill is 3mm doesn't mean the spacing between the slots has to be 3mm .. does it?

    No, the thickness of the fins can be less than 3mm but the gap between them can't be. Given the overall length would be to suit the number of leds / lenses this will determine the number of fins that can be cut into it. I think Mr Perfecto, sorry Troutie, will like to keep them fairly even from a visual perspective so it then comes down to a matter of only being able to get so many in the given space.

    The other thing is, the thinner the fin, the more noticeable it is when they are slightly different thicknesses. I speak from experience on this one, yet another fugly that will never be seen

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    No, the thickness of the fins can be less than 3mm but the gap between them can't be.
    I re-read my post and must now apologise for the desperately bad wording.

    "Gaps between slots" = "fin width"

    (not that it matters)

    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    The other thing is, the thinner the fin, the more noticeable it is when they are slightly different thicknesses. I speak from experience on this one, yet another fugly that will never be seen
    Thanks for the insight. Like I said, I know so little about this that to say I know nothing is big-noting myself. Having said that .. would the knurling idea be a useful one? I know lathe type people have told me there are little tools to do it, so a consistent pattern is easy to achieve, and it would certainly increase surface area.

    Here is some seat of the pants stuff ... I don't have anything knurled to hand, but they result is basically little pyramid shapes .. yes?

    Apparently the surface area of a pyramid is



    Now, bear with me, the increase in surface area if a surface is knurled, as opposed to flat, can be conveniently be expressed as a ratio of the surface area of a pyramid compared to that of a square, like so:

    surface area increase = (2*b*s + b*b) / b*b

    (where b*b is "b-squared")

    So

    surface area increase = 2s / b + 1

    So the amount of surface area increase depends on the ratio of the length of the pyramid face to the length of the side of the pyramid. If we assume s = b (in the right ball park) then

    surface area increase = 3

    (i.e. 300% increase in surface area)

    How does this compare to slots? The increase in surface area of a slot is the area of the side walls. If we use Troutie's example (but assume the slots are the same depth as they are high, which is not necessarily true, but makes it easier to think about) then the surface area increase is 2 (think of a cross section of the slot, before cutting there are two equal areas, after cutting there are four).

    If you double the depth of the slot you get a ratio of 3.

    What the heck, the maths is like so:

    We have some metal of width w, with n slots (width s) of depth d and an equal number of fins of width f.

    We won't bother multiplying everything by the length of the metal, it will all wash out in the maths, so the area of the bare metal is w and the area of the slotted metal is

    area (slotted) = n*f + n*s + n*2d = n * ( f + n + 2d )

    so the ratio of slotted to bare is

    surface area increase = n * ( f + s + 2d ) / w

    now the area of the bare metal is the area of the tops of the fins and the bottoms of the slots, i.e.

    w = n * ( f + s )

    plug that back into the surface area equation:

    surface area increase = n * ( f + s + 2d ) / n * ( f + s ) = 1 + 2d / ( f + s )

    WTF?!?! I hear you say. Well indeed. Some examples help.

    For the case where f = s (the slots are the same width as the fins, approximately what Troutie has)

    surface area increase = 1 + d / s

    So if the depth of the slot is the same as the width (d=s) then we get back the thought experiment above, surface area increase is 2. If we double the depth, the increase is 3.

    What if Troutie increased the number of slots as I suggested? Let's pretend he could halve the width of his slots, so f = s / 2, and

    surface area increase = 1 + 3d / 2s

    So if the depth of the slot is the same as the width (d=s) the surface area increase is 2.5.

    (if any of this tosh is wrong, please feel free to correct it)

    This is a helpful result. My suggestion to increase the number of slots is stupid. Increasin g their depth is way more effective. There might be a practical and aesthetic limit to the depth of the fins, and if this is the case then knurling looks an attractive alternative.

  84. #84
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    Plus 1 to everything glowinthedark says about a) knurling, and b) deeper fins.
    • I'm no rocket-surgeon, but the maths looked pretty right to me.
    • I agree that increasing the fin's aspect-ratio (ie. height:width ratio) will certainly yield more surface-area.
    • Likewise, a knurled surface will yield a useful increase in surface-area too.
    • But remember we're talking about convection-cooled bike-lights here, not fan-cooled CPU heatsinks (or whatever). So my gut tells me that a super-agressive fin design won't necessarily perform as well in still-air (which is when you need cooling most) when compared with the forced-ventilation case.
    • Also, vertical fins (especially on top of the housing) would typically perform better than horizontal fins.

    Thoughts?
    Brisbane, AU

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    If thats the crappy mini mill you have I want to swap garages. Hell, even if its not, I wanta swap anyway

    Can you expand the pics of version 2 so I can see where the lid starts and ends, it will make it easy for me to copy?

    Do you think I'd get away with running 4 in series from a 12v battery?

    Thanks

    Stuart, ordering milling bits today for my cross slide vice and drill press


    Stu
    it is crappy compared to the 60 year old lathe at the other side
    down to one gear and expecting that to break soon
    yes will do some pics for you
    Copy
    But you are supposed to say wow can I buy one when Deesta does a run on his CNC machines.


    ======

    Glowinthedark

    The spacing is just chance on my behalf the led cavitly is 60mm wide
    the milling cutter is 3mm and 3 full turns on the crosslide wheel = 6 mm
    so it was easy for me to index it correctly for each fin
    and 10 fins = 60 mm plus the extra at the sides
    it sort of just happened that way

    I am very crap at all the other aspects like tech drawing , and theory ,
    and hopless an anything like a cad software .
    I wish I wasnt as it would save me so much time and raw materials.

    My working method is look at the leds and optics . measure them
    then stare at the lump of ali for a while , and then just start removing metal
    and the design is very dynamic and evolves as work progresses ,


    I can read you post there and even understand most of it .

    knurling yes I can see the advantage there .

    thinner fins and more of them do as Stu comments look terrible if not all even
    and I like to have good mass in the light also it gives you some time for it to heat up when stopped like a buffer ,


    ========

    gillestugan

    Ha Ha you are correct about crazy .

    last nights posting was like the Trout fishing for the angler
    I am still giggling about it

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon
    But remember we're talking about convection-cooled bike-lights here, not fan-cooled CPU heatsinks (or whatever). So my gut tells me that a super-agressive fin design won't necessarily perform as well in still-air (which is when you need cooling most) when compared with the forced-ventilation case.

    Thoughts?
    I'd be inclined to think the opposite. There are plenty of passive chip heatsinks that are spikey little beggars. Alot of space between the fins would be the go for setting up decent convective currents .. no?

    Probably impossible to say unless someone modelled it properly. The lack of knurled chip heatsinks tends to suggest to me that they aren't too crash hot in a still-air situation. But I think the area that is of most concern is not still air, but slowly moving air on hill climbs (and Trout-deep mud slogs). In this case the convective cooling is still dominant, but not efficient enough. As long as there were no funky boundary layer effects with knurled surfaces then it should be pretty effective (boundary layer effect = still layer of air "attached" to the surface).

  87. #87
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    pics of the Troutfin lite
















  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    The spacing is just chance on my behalf the led cavitly is 60mm wide
    the milling cutter is 3mm and 3 full turns on the crosslide wheel = 6 mm
    so it was easy for me to index it correctly for each fin
    and 10 fins = 60 mm plus the extra at the sides
    it sort of just happened that way
    Fair enough. If I was you I wouldn' t be changing anything! You are getting great results the way you work now.

    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I can read you post there and even understand most of it .
    It was a useful exercise and the results surprised me, so I am suspicious I have made a mistake.

    One of the more eyebrow raising results was as the effective fin width approaches zero (i.e. really effing thin) the surface area increase ratio approaches 3 for the case where the slot depth is the same as the width of the slot.

    Now this seems like rubbish to me as the slot width is increasing, so must the depth for this case. I'm sure I've stuffed something up. I have a hidden assumption in there somewhere that I am too stupid to figure out .. probably shouldn't have the slot width and fin width as separate variables (they are related by the total width after all).



    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    knurling yes I can see the advantage there .
    Do you have the tools for knurling on your lathe? I was told by an engineer here that it is very easy for him to do. Might be easier than fins (the bottom ones are good for airflow underneath though) and just as effective.
    Last edited by glowinthedark; 01-13-2009 at 11:04 PM.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by glowinthedark

    Do you have the tools for knurling on your lathe? I was told by an engineer here that it is very easy for him to do. Might be easier than fins (the bottom ones are good for airflow underneath though) and just as effective.

    I have no knurling tools and I do know it needs quite a bit of grunt in the machine to do properly.
    my lathe has the grunt but I cant do non round things

    The minimill it would be the death off I am sure .

    The bottom fins were an design improvement from the mk1 and does give allround airflow

  90. #90
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    Just my 2 cents regarding knurling:

    In my 20 years as an engineer, I've yet to come across a tool that will knurl on flat bar. The way it works is by forcing a form tool into a rotating bar. You can get tools now that will cut a knurl rather than form it but it's still only anygood on round bar.

    Aslo, I wouldn't have thought that you would gain much in the way of surface area. Most knurling is around 0.4mm deep.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    Aslo, I wouldn't have thought that you would gain much in the way of surface area. Most knurling is around 0.4mm deep.
    Agreed, knurling isn't the way to go.

    The simplest thing for Troutie would be to make more cuts at right-angle, thus creating little pillars.

    Even better would be to fabricate something like this heatsink. That little 25mm square device is good for 10C/W in still air - multiply that by 4 to get a rough approximation to the top surface of Troutie's light, and you have massive cooling ability. That's what I'm thinking of doing if I use the little Hammond case for my version of this light.

  92. #92
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    All this talk and it sounds like Trouties light has a heat problem

    It kept stone cold last night even on the slow mud crawl and even when the triple mce had tripped.

    There comes a point when losing mass is a bad thing
    extreme case take some aluminium foil and plase a hot thing on it the heat doesnot spread out that much.and nor does it aid it cooling much.

    also what you all are forgetting is I am using the creme of drivers the maxflex
    and it will look after the leds if you ask it.

    Now you have made me go out to get a DMM with thermal sensing .

  93. #93
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    It looks to me, with my limited knowledge, that there should be enough heatsinking. And if you don't need to drive them that hard, heat shouldn't be an issue

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilt
    The simplest thing for Troutie would be to make more cuts at right-angle, thus creating little pillars.
    This doesn't increase surface area if your fins are the same size as the gaps between them. I did the sums before I built mine, thinking it would increase surface area but you net out the same, with less mass, and more corners to cut yourself. As mentioned earlier, the best way is to increase the depth of the gaps, which is another way of saying increase the height of the fins.

    I'm with Troutie on this one, in George we trust.

  95. #95
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    The MKII version of the case looks much more cohesive. With the extra sinking and a shade more mass around the ends of the optic hole, this is going to be one cool light.

    Nice work and thanks for posting it!

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    This doesn't increase surface area if your fins are the same size as the gaps between them. I did the sums before I built mine, thinking it would increase surface area but you net out the same, with less mass, and more corners to cut yourself. As mentioned earlier, the best way is to increase the depth of the gaps, which is another way of saying increase the height of the fins.

    I'm with Troutie on this one, in George we trust.

    Hells bells I had to draw that out to see what you meant

    You are right there Stu but it had me dead confused.

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    How about different grades of aluminum. Different heat transmission rates too I bet.
    Keep it simple. If the light doesn't shut down or melt my helmet from the heat, then I am happy. If the light does either then bigger fins/mass or I need to ride faster.

  98. #98
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    It is a good job I wanted a new multimeter you have tipped me into getting one

    Hey they are dead cool with the temp probe .
    I have wandered around the house measuring temps of things .
    but stopped short of measuring my own body.


    For this test this is as scientific as it gets .
    I had holes drilled for the bolts and these are 3mm from the back of the led boards
    so 5 mm from the led it self

    The ambient temp is 14c and this was also the starting temp at the back of the leds
    maxflex is set to 60 degrees thermal trip and 700 ma
    Troutie time lapse piccy taking at approx 30 second intervals

    I will let the pictures tell the story and see what the number crunchers come up with .
    but I am very happy with the results .
    I have my own theorys but will save them untill later

    <embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://s199.photobucket.com/flash/remix/player.swf?videoURL=http://vid199.photobucket.com/albums/aa46/amticoman/HEAT%20TEST/626f2d3e.pbr&hostname=stream199.photobucket.com"></embed>

  99. #99
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    That's very impressive Chris...Just moving along slowly should act like a low fan

    No problems with heat at all then...

  100. #100
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    Looks good to me, Chris.

    What was the soundtrack? It sounds like some band I know but can't place it.

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