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  1. #1
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    XC/AM Riders - Hope Pro II - Engagement

    For all you guys that ride XC/AM that have Hope Pro II hubs, do you find there to be enough engagement points, or do you wish you went with something like a Hadley or King that has more engagement points?

    If you are having issues, what type of situations have you been in?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    I've heard that the alloy "housing" for the casset (dunno whats it called) is easy to mess up, because it gets soft at some point... I have it on my new bike, but i allready ordered a steel replacement.. that should fix it
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=25986

    But this is just something I heard from another forum,.. but i will see how it holds, when i go riding for real in the summer

    about the engagement points.. i find that i have enough.. but im not a skilled rider, so havnt tried the king's or hadley's.. so really cant say anything about it

  3. #3
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    Check my user gallery and you'll see the kind of riding I do on mine.

    I really can't repost, but this thread contains some comments I've made on these hubs (among dealing with some comical misinformation). I ratchet on mine and they work. That's not to say more engagement points would feel good as well.

  4. #4
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    First let me say IMO Hope is a great hub. I know 2 clydes that are on Hope and can't seem to break em. I am talking heavy duty mashers riding P1 jumpers hitting 20-30 ft gaps, 15 ft drops and such... These boys can break anything and pretty much have, but the Hope just keep on taking the beating.

    However, I jumped from an XT to Hadley and tried to go back to a Hope later on (on second bike). Ended up buying a second Hadley as I started hatting my second bike due to the lack of engagement.

    IMO there is just as much difference in XT and Hope as there is in Hope to Hadley when it comes to engagement. Don't get me wrong, Hope is a superior hub to xt, , but Hope lacks the engagement of the Hadley. For those who haven't already spent some time on a Hadley, they will most likely love the Hope and for good reason... It's a great hub. But for those who are fortunate enough to have owned a Hadley there is no going back.

  5. #5
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    I have 2 wheel sets with Hope Pro IIs. I use them for everything from light assisted DH to my weight conscious XC hardtail. They work find for the tight technical singletrack I ride here on the east coast. The other, more expensive, hubs work great for sure. But in my opinion the minimal noticeable difference is just not worth the large price difference.

  6. #6
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    When I ride more techincal trails, I would appreciate faster engagement, for everything else, they're fine. Guess that's the reason I'm building a set of Kings!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by adhumston
    When I ride more techincal trails, I would appreciate faster engagement, for everything else, they're fine. Guess that's the reason I'm building a set of Kings!
    I kinda wish I would have tried a King setup, but it's to late now as have already invested in Hope... By the time I paid shipping and or tax (LBS) I ended up with about $315 in a hadley bolt on hub. Not sure what you guys are paying for Kings?

    I picked up a set of Hopes for my son that ended up costing $300. Had the 20 mm adapter for the front and included the rear bolt on kit. Still lots of money to ride in the dirt

  8. #8
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    I'm a clyde and built up a set of Pro II's on 819's last year for my XC/Trail/AM bike. I even had the bike out to the local bike/ski park and on a 125 mile epic ride: they've put up quite well with all the abuse I've thrown at them and they are very solid in their engagement.

    If you're used to 24 poe, then they are just fine and are very nice hubs...if you've gotten used to Kings or Hadleys, you'll notice the fewer engagement points.

    Btw, the freewheel body is aluminum, so go with a full carrier cassette (XT, XTR, 980 or 990) or get the steel body otherwise you can make it up a bit.
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  9. #9
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    The 980 is not a full carrier cassette like the XT or 990. Common mistake people make. Pics of it are in my user gallery.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    The other, more expensive, hubs work great for sure. But in my opinion the minimal noticeable difference is just not worth the large price difference.

    Yeah, King and Hadley are great hubs, nobody will normally say otherwise BUT for the price it is difficult to beat Hope. I have never had engagement points hold be back before. Engagement is still very good with Hope, especially for the price. Light, tough, reliable, reasonably priced. For me it was a no brainer. I built an entire wheelset for what it would have cost me to buy a set of Kings!

    Edit: I also run a SRAM cassette with the red carrier with no problems. At least none that I've noticed.

  11. #11
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    I think it's funny how people think they need 200,000 engagement points. I can see it in Trials riding when it's crucial, but C'mon. How quick do you really need it to engage when you're coming out of a turn? OMG XT hubs suck b/c they don't engage instantly.

    Rant done.

    My Hope Pro II's are the beezneez. I love them. They engage plenty quick enough for trail riding and skinny's.

  12. #12
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    chelboed has got it right. you don't need any more than 16 points for trail riding. the only really place that it is needed is in trials. i have ridden high point hubs and now ride hope pro2's on both of my bikes. not having all those engagement points does not slow you down. one thing that the pro2's has over many hubs is the its very solid engagement.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_crackien
    one thing that the pro2's has over many hubs is the its very solid engagement.
    Not to mention versatility. They are so adaptable. You can do a solid axle, QR, Allen screw-in rear; and QR or TA front. How kewl is that?

    Anyone who says the freehub body is soft is spot on though. I always use carrier type cassettes. One day I'll switch to a steel body so I can go back to a cheaper cassette like the PG971's or something. For now...XT all the way.

  14. #14
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    I ran Shimano & generic hubs for years and had no issues w/ engagement. Bought a CK hub last season and other than more $ and buzzing I thought no big deal. Some time later I had a rim problem so I borrowed a freinds rim w/ a Shimano hub, for a trail ride. I kept thinking something is wrong w/ this hub everytime I try and accelerate there's a lag ??? Well nothing was wrong with the hub I just got used to fast engagement. I built up a second wheelset on Pro II's (24pt) and again lag city - not technical climbing just pushing the pedals down the trail. That coupled w/ the annoying CLACK CLACK I sprung for King's again.

  15. #15
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    chelboed,

    You must be a poor boy... the way your defending the Hope and bashing the higher end stuff. Come on now admit it, if money were no object... You would be riding kings. LOL

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed
    I think it's funny how people think they need 200,000 engagement points. I can see it in Trials riding when it's crucial, but C'mon. How quick do you really need it to engage when you're coming out of a turn? OMG XT hubs suck b/c they don't engage instantly.

    Rant done.

    My Hope Pro II's are the beezneez. I love them. They engage plenty quick enough for trail riding and skinny's.

    I would have to disagree. I have a xt hub in the rear and for the rocky ledges and things that i have to ride over on climbs the POE is just not enough. There are a lot of times when i have to put a foot down and push my bike over a ledge where i would have made it up with a CK.

    That being said, i am not in the financial position to spend the money for CK's so i will be getting red Hope's. The CK's will have to wait 2 yrs untill the wife is done with her Ph.D.

  17. #17
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    For all you guys that ride XC/AM that have Hope Pro II hubs, do you find there to be enough engagement points, or do you wish you went with something like a Hadley or King that has more engagement points?
    Yes.

    I get along with my Hope's just fine but for a lot of the rocky ledgy climbing I do more engagement would be a huge plus. For xc riding the Hope's POE are perfectly fine.

    I rode my buddies new King a few weeks ago. Ratcheting back a bit when you can't take a full pedal stroke was REALLY nice compared to my set up.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen
    I ran Shimano & generic hubs for years and had no issues w/ engagement. Bought a CK hub last season and other than more $ and buzzing I thought no big deal. Some time later I had a rim problem so I borrowed a freinds rim w/ a Shimano hub, for a trail ride. I kept thinking something is wrong w/ this hub everytime I try and accelerate there's a lag ??? Well nothing was wrong with the hub I just got used to fast engagement. I built up a second wheelset on Pro II's (24pt) and again lag city - not technical climbing just pushing the pedals down the trail. That coupled w/ the annoying CLACK CLACK I sprung for King's again.
    Load of crap. Pushing the pedals down the trail, there is no lag with any hub b/c HELLO...it's engaged. You don't (or at least I don't) push coast / push coast. I pedal in circles and my hub is engaged the whole time. The only time you feel lag or lack of engagement is when you pedal and coast or need to do trials type riding (or very technical riding) where there is alot of stop/start/track stand...etc...

    P.S. some people like loud freehubs. Hope's are music to my ears. I don't mind the sound of Kings...definitely cooler than an XT or cookie-cutter Mavic hub, but I really like the "CLACK CLACK" stout sound of the hubs. If you keep them lubed though...they're quieter.




    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    chelboed,

    You must be a poor boy... the way your defending the Hope and bashing the higher end stuff. Come on now admit it, if money were no object... You would be riding kings. LOL
    That could have been taken as a rude attack from a snobby beyotch if I really cared about money and status and the like. I'd say I do alright and granted I'm rollin' on some "poor boy" $500 wheelset instead of an Eddie Bauer 1k wheelset. Okay, I'm poor...I don't care though. If money were no object, I'd still be rolling something besides CK hubs. I truly love the versatility of Hope's. They're a far cry from slumming it, wouldn't you say?

    And when did I "bash" the Chris King hub? Chris King is arguably one of the nicest bicycle component manufacturers out there. CK hubs are very nice pieces of "art". I respect King enough to say he's an artist. If money were no object...Industry 9's would be on my bike...but I never bash King.

  19. #19
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed
    Load of crap. Pushing the pedals down the trail, there is no lag with any hub b/c HELLO...it's engaged. You don't (or at least I don't) push coast / push coast. I pedal in circles and my hub is engaged the whole time. The only time you feel lag or lack of engagement is when you pedal and coast or need to do trials type riding (or very technical riding) where there is alot of stop/start/track stand...etc...

    P.S. some people like loud freehubs. Hope's are music to my ears. I don't mind the sound of Kings...definitely cooler than an XT or cookie-cutter Mavic hub, but I really like the "CLACK CLACK" stout sound of the hubs. If you keep them lubed though...they're quieter.






    That could have been taken as a rude attack from a snobby beyotch if I really cared about money and status and the like. I'd say I do alright and granted I'm rollin' on some "poor boy" $500 wheelset instead of an Eddie Bauer 1k wheelset. Okay, I'm poor...I don't care though. If money were no object, I'd still be rolling something besides CK hubs. I truly love the versatility of Hope's. They're a far cry from slumming it, wouldn't you say?

    And when did I "bash" the Chris King hub? Chris King is arguably one of the nicest bicycle component manufacturers out there. CK hubs are very nice pieces of "art". I respect King enough to say he's an artist. If money were no object...Industry 9's would be on my bike...but I never bash King.
    chelboed, I was not attaching Just wanted to make a point, engagement points cost money. Everyone wants more but not all are willing to pay to play... For those who do POWER 2'm!

    I will stick to my guns and repeat a portion of my opening post on this thread, as my message to the OP is still the same: that's why we are posting on this thread right, to give our opinion?

    OP's question was: For all you guys that ride XC/AM that have Hope Pro II hubs, do you find there to be enough engagement points, or do you wish you went with something like a Hadley or King that has more engagement points?

    IMO there is just as much difference in XT and Hope as there is in Hope to Hadley when it comes to engagement. Don't get me wrong, Hope is a superior hub to xt, , but Hope lacks the engagement of the Hadley. For those who haven't already spent some time on a Hadley, they will most likely love the Hope and for good reason... It's a great hub. But for those who are fortunate enough to have owned a Hadley there is no going back.

  20. #20
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    What is the POE on an XT hub? A Hope is 24, right?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stubs179
    What is the POE on an XT hub? A Hope is 24, right?
    Like...2

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    IMO there is just as much difference in XT and Hope as there is in Hope to Hadley when it comes to engagement. Don't get me wrong, Hope is a superior hub to xt, , but Hope lacks the engagement of the Hadley. For those who haven't already spent some time on a Hadley, they will most likely love the Hope and for good reason... It's a great hub. But for those who are fortunate enough to have owned a Hadley there is no going back.
    Point well taken. I've never owned Hadley's, so I just dunno. Hope vs. King...sure, King is better. Your point is valid. My point was a little different in that and prob. off topic b/c I hear so many whine about the POE who really just don't understand where they benefit from it.

    Game on!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The 980 is not a full carrier cassette like the XT or 990. Common mistake people make. Pics of it are in my user gallery.
    Good catch, JC...I keep forgetting that SRAM's line only has a full carrier in the top o' the line 990.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by stubs179
    What is the POE on an XT hub? A Hope is 24, right?
    Older XT hubs had 18. I believe 2008 and newer have 36.

  25. #25
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    I don't know if my XT came from old stock or not but it's brand new out of the box and has 16 poe counted by me several times to be sure. I did have to use all my fingers and most of my toes.
    There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

  26. #26
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    I had a set of Hopes for about two years. Nice hubs, priced right. No problems and pretty easy to maintain. Never really cared for the noise that they made tho, so I built up a set of wheels with Hadley hubs this time around. I really prefer the engagement of the Hadleys vs the Hopes, so if I were to do it again I would go with Hadley.

    The only thing I did not like about the Hopes is the lack of preload adjustment, but they may not need it due to their design. I had them apart a few times and never noticed it to be an issue tho. Guess I'm just used to hubs with a preload adjustment.

  27. #27
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    I have no problems with hope proII hubs, they work - job done.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1

    IMO there is just as much difference in XT and Hope as there is in Hope to Hadley when it comes to engagement. Don't get me wrong, Hope is a superior hub to xt, , but Hope lacks the engagement of the Hadley. For those who haven't already spent some time on a Hadley, they will most likely love the Hope and for good reason... It's a great hub. But for those who are fortunate enough to have owned a Hadley there is no going back.
    Don't the new XT's have quite a bit more engagement points then they used to? I got the 2008 XT wheelset since it was so cheap and light as a replacement for great wheels built around DT 440's (ok, not very many engagement points there either) and did not feel a difference in that regard.

  29. #29
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    Like I said a few posts up, my new XT hubs have 16 points of engagement. Maybe my new hubs are old stock or something.
    There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingair
    Like I said a few posts up, my new XT hubs have 16 points of engagement. Maybe my new hubs are old stock or something.
    Yep, yours must be 2007 or so.

    http://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont..._mountain.html

    The literature says "Quicker engagement freehub body (10 degrees)" which is 36 P.O.E.

  31. #31
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    Mine is not the center lock version so you're right, 2007 or so. What ever it is it's being replaced with a hadley tomorrow.
    There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

  32. #32
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    Hehe noice!

  33. #33
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    Thanks all for responses!

  34. #34
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    Well I've been running Hope Pro IIs for a while now, and for cost/weight they take some beating. Here in the UK the cost of either the King or Hadley hubs is prohibitive. I've recently picked up a second hand hadley off ebay for my VP-Free dh rig and its a great hub, easy to service and sounds cool, but I must be some kind of dumbass because I'll be damned if I can really tell the difference.

    BTW over here, Hope Pro II is 140GBP, the Hadley about 210GBP and the King somewhere about £220-240GBP.

  35. #35
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    flyag1 i'm more than willing to pay to play as i think many other people on here are. i will not pay for an over priced piece of equipment (king) or pay for a heavier item (hadley) when there is and item that is lighter than both of those options and still have the quality.

    if you know the price of knollys and tomacs then you know i'm willing to pay

    as for the soft freehub body its NO softer than any king hub that i have seen with the alloy body or any otehr hub with an alloy freehub body. hadley doesn't have the problem because they use a very high grade TI as low grade TI will still deform.

    as for the engagement point thing i have ridden 16, 24, 36, 48, and 72 point hubs in the past and the ONLY place it really mattered at all was in trials (not trails). in mtn trails or on the road high point hubs are just a waste of resistance and complexity. i will take very solid engagement over point count any day of the week. i'm a big guy (260 lbs) and fairly in shape and i can lay down some serious torque. i can feel a weak drive train component in a heart beat (and just about every other part as well). all the trails i ride are atleast mildly techy and some are very techy so i have to chop pedal to get through them quite a bit and i have never missed a beat due to a 24 point hub. i haven't ridden a 16 point hub in such a long time so i will not comment on that.

  36. #36
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    Interesting that the hubs made for the Spinergy wheels are made by Hadley but are supposedly only 24 point(or was it 32) engagement, any input?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_crackien
    flyag1 i'm more than willing to pay to play as i think many other people on here are. i will not pay for an over priced piece of equipment (king) or pay for a heavier item (hadley) when there is and item that is lighter than both of those options and still have the quality. Not once did I ever bash Hope, quite the contrary as they are a very good hub... Maybe I said Great hub! They just don't have the engagement points of the Hadley or King

    i hadley doesn't have the problem because they use a very high grade TI as low grade TI will still deform. Never mentioned the issue with hope using AL vs. steel, TI.... AL is fine even tho it deforms, whats the big deal here? I have seen steel freewheels with notches

    as for the engagement point thing i have ridden 16, 24, 36, 48, and 72 point hubs in the past and the ONLY place it really mattered at all was in trials (not trails). Did you own the hubs or did you ride a friends around the block? Big difference... Once one acquires a taste for fine wine, it's difficult to swallow Boone's Farm...LOL The same is true of hubs, a test ride will not make you a convert. A sampling of fine "Gaston" will not do, a case and your hooked!... Not all at once tho in mtn trails or on the road high point hubs are just a waste of resistance and complexity. i will take very solid engagement over point count any day of the week. i'm a big guy (260 lbs) and fairly in shape and i can lay down some serious torque. i can feel a weak drive train component in a heart beat (and just about every other part as well). all the trails i ride are atleast mildly techy and some are very techy so i have to chop pedal to get through them quite a bit and i have never missed a beat due to a 24 point hub. I beleave you and a lot of riders go the same places you go on 16 pt XT hubs, but they havent drank the coolaid i haven't ridden a 16 point hub in such a long time so i will not comment on that.
    Dale

  38. #38
    some know me as mongo
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    flyag1 i was not going after you or anything like that just using your response in a statement of mine.

    actually i have owned way too many bike parts

    in my past:

    shimano :deore, lx, xt (and xt disc) (all 16 POE hubs)
    hope pro2 (24 point)
    hope pro2 ss (48 point)
    hope XC (36 POE)
    sun jumping fleas and their older xc hub (both 36 POE)
    hadley (72 POE)
    DT swiss onyx (18 POE) <very little time on them though
    white IND speed racer (24 POE)
    others that i can't remember

  39. #39
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    sir_crackien

    Thanks for your contribution, I didn't feel you were attacking. It's just the way big boys talk about their toys I too was using your reply to make a point. I think we can all agree that getting up the hill is dependent on the rider and hubs want make a rider nor will hubs stop a rider. But we all like bling and hub are a part of our toy box

  40. #40
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    Only issue I've had with my hopes (2 sets) was when using the 20mm adapter; there is a bit of slop that always annoyed me. Felt like a loose headset when you have the front brake on and rock the bike back and forth. Never threw me off line or anything, just annoying. The front and rear hubs on a fiends Spinergys have that same slop. Drives me buggers. I believe the hadly manufacture of the Spinergy is just a recent thing...Because these were fairly new and the POE stank and the aforementioned slop.
    unityhandbuilt

  41. #41
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    I ordered my wheels set this week..I went with Hadleys!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by genrec
    I ordered my wheels set this week..I went with Hadleys!
    You will never regret the decision, unless later you second guess yourself for not springing for the Kings. It's all about our toys

    What rims and spokes makeup the set? Pictures are welcome!

  43. #43
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    DT Swiss 5.1 rims.....DT Comp spokes.....DT Alloy Nipples (red)......Hadleys (red) 20mm front,10mm rear

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by genrec
    DT Swiss 5.1 rims.....DT Comp spokes.....DT Alloy Nipples (red)......Hadleys (red) 20mm front,10mm rear
    Sweet, I am running the same setup except I had to lace the special Specialized hub to my front rim when I bought my Enduro SL last year. I've put somewhere around 2,000 miles on the rims and rear hub and it's never been serviced. Probability needs a service but it rolls so smooth and the rims have remained true, so I keep on rolling.

  45. #45
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    Good to hear, I can't wait....I'm picking up the new 09 RS Revelation 20mm maxlelite to match up to that front hub, hope it is as nice as people claim, considering I'm ditching my 09 Fox Talas for it.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    You will never regret the decision, unless later you second guess yourself for not springing for the Kings. It's all about our toys

    What rims and spokes makeup the set? Pictures are welcome!
    Almost without fail people who obsess over bike parts like you generally suck at riding.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  47. #47
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Almost without fail people who obsess over bike parts like you generally suck at riding.
    So true, I used to play a lot of golf and learned real quick you can't judge a player by his quiver. Lost a few bets to some of the ugliest clubs you ever saw.

    With that said would you like to ride? Hopefully, God willing: I will be in Moab April 15-19. I will be the guy with red Hadleys, 5.1s, TI colored 08 Spec SL... might just wear a pair of PINK tights with white gloves...

  48. #48
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    [QUOTE=chelboed]Load of crap. Pushing the pedals down the trail, there is no lag with any hub b/c HELLO...it's engaged. You don't (or at least I don't) push coast / push coast. I pedal in circles and my hub is engaged the whole time. The only time you feel lag or lack of engagement is when you pedal and coast or need to do trials type riding (or very technical riding) where there is alot of stop/start/track stand...etc...

    P.S. some people like loud freehubs. Hope's are music to my ears. I don't mind the sound of Kings...definitely cooler than an XT or cookie-cutter Mavic hub, but I really like the "CLACK CLACK" stout sound of the hubs. If you keep them lubed though...they're quieter.


    Yes I have to take turns on the trails I ride thus I have to coast then push the pedal's = LAG !

    The only time you feel lag or lack of engagement is when you pedal and coast - YES you feel lag not so on my Bling Bling Kings
    "

  49. #49
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    [trolling]does over-reliance on the technology on your bike make you a worse rider[/trolling]

    I'm sure I am like many on here in that I love the equipment of biking as well as the biking itself. I spend a lot of time choosing my bikes and I spend a lot of time setting them up. I am quite happy with the idea that it is self-defeating to ride a bike that doesn't fit as well as it could and isn't working properly as well as it could; forks should be fresh and lubed; brakes should be uncontaminated with bedded in pads. The best hubs I own are Hopes so I've never experienced higher POE.

    Having said that, I keep an old 1992 Marin Indian Fire Trail (my first mountain bike) set up as a rigid singlespeeder, running cantis. I kid myself that riding this bike keeps me sharper for the times I am riding my full suspension rigs. When I am riding, the bike ceases to matter. I am riding the trail; the bike is incidental.

    When I read comments about being unable to go back to lower POE having got used to it, I am stuck wondering how the rider's skill has diminished so far that lower POE are no longer fit for purpose. I'm honest enough to know that all the situations where I fail to negotiate a technical obstacle are down to me and not the bike - stick a better rider on the same bike and they would clear it, no problem.

    Pehaps POE would help me advance my skills further, giving me the confidence boost to get me out of stall situations and launch with more certainty off lips/drops. However, if instead I settled with the new equipment and didn't push my riding to new levels, I can't help but feel my riding skills would in fact be declining.

  50. #50
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    As Iäve mentioned before, we have lots of high $ hubs in Europe, and few, if any, post points of engagement. It appears to be a non-issue here, compared to the subject of durability and performance. I will not blind myself to higher points being out there, establishing some pricing standards lower point hubs fit in, but it's not just one feature we should look at of the whole.

  51. #51
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    Acros Hubs

    Hey Jerk_Chicken or any one else for that matter. Any one have experience with Acros hubs? I have heard good things about their headset and overall quality/attention to detail.

    Here is a link to the entire Acros hub line-up.

    http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...?category=3892

  52. #52
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    No experience...expensive...I'd love to see what's inside. Made in Germany, so I could likely get a discount compared to the US market.

  53. #53
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    Edit:

    http://www.acros.de/acros2/02_produc...kel=226.02.505

    7 pawls, the second number denotes the number of bearings.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Edit:

    http://www.acros.de/acros2/02_produc...kel=226.02.505

    7 pawls, the second number denotes the number of bearings.
    Why does the tech document say there are 5 pawls, each 7mm long, 30 points of engagement?

  55. #55
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    That's the 5 series, with 5 pawls. First number is the number of pawls, second is the number of bearings. It's explained on the Universal site, as well as on the Acros site.

  56. #56
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    Hope hubs don't freeze up like kings do in the UK, local bike shop , keeps the kettle hot to un freeze Kings and the like, told me they had to do 36 free hubs that where frozen, people getting really upset that there £350 hub had frozen.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm
    Why does the tech document say there are 5 pawls, each 7mm long, 30 points of engagement?
    My guess is they have 30 places around the inside of the hub whereby any one of the 5 pawls can engage. (If I am correct and only 1 pawl engages at any give time) you have 30 * 5 = 150 different possibilities where the hub can engage. A circle consist of 360 degrees and if a hub can engage in 150 different places it suggest you could engage the hub every (360 / 150 = 2.4) 2.4 degrees.

  58. #58
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    JC, I linked to the page you referenced and the tech document for the .75 and it definitely says 5 pawls, 7mm wide.

    You need to check up on your skim-reading habits. The info I'm dishing out is confirmed on the Universal site.

  59. #59
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    I think they're 30 POE only.

  60. #60
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    Ahhh, now I see. 5 pawls, still nice. 30 points really isn't that bad.

  61. #61
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    POE does make a difference, so does the nbr of pawls. Some of the old Shamano free hubs had 1 pawl and 18 points of engagement. Do the math (360 / 18 = 20) and you see that it a 20 degree rotation to move one POE.

  62. #62
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    20 degrees about the hub. What is it at the cranks? On top of that, you're not always on entire span away from the engagement point.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    20 degrees about the hub. What is it at the cranks? On top of that, you're not always on entire span away from the engagement point.
    Depends on the gear selection: the rider notices the the engagement points most in very low gears: Example using the old Shimano 20 degree hub... Lets say your in a very low gear and 1 turn on the crank = 1/2 turn on the rim you could actually turn the crank 30 degrees before engaging. So it stands to reason engagement points are most important when faced with technical climbs.... low gears.

    And you're right about not always being 20 degrees away from engagement, could only be 1 degree away... but you never know until after the fact.

  64. #64
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    ...but what I don't understand is how it's being made like a hub is unusable, rather than a preference, if it doesn't have a certain number of engagement points at a minimum.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    ...but what I don't understand is how it's being made like a hub is unusable, rather than a preference, if it doesn't have a certain number of engagement points at a minimum.
    Please open your PMs J.C.
    roccowt.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    ...but what I don't understand is how it's being made like a hub is unusable, rather than a preference, if it doesn't have a certain number of engagement points at a minimum.
    It's NOT mandated that you have lots of EPs, it's a preference and a very costly upgrade. Like forks, brakes, tires, or any thing else on your bike. You can spend $10 on a tire or you can spend $100.... the $10 tire will probally last a lot longer as it going to be hard rubber. But peeps can roll faster on the $100 tire so they buy 10 in the same amount time it take to wear out a $10 tire.... all a matter of how much you are willing to spend.

    I am just trying to help you and everyone understand what the EPs and nbr of pawls mean...

  67. #67
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    I know what EP's mean, but it's still not convincing. I've ridden higher point hubs, and I didn't ride any better. My riding is technically oriented, with lots of ratcheting as the bike rocks back and forth to get over obstacles, and it's not been a hindrance in any way to have "only" 24 points, and my gf, riding on 18 star ratchet points. I can and possibly will get a lower degree of engagement hub, simply as if I get something else, I don't like going lateral. I have been enticed into thinking about Kings, True Precision, and a couple others in higher and lower ranges.

    Instead, I could just blow my money on a German tool set. It's preference and a higher engagement point is for the feel, not for much else. One will still make it over the same technical sections, and so long as they're pedaling, the rider won't know the difference between hub engagement, so long as it's strong enough for them.

    No one is talking about mechanism drag, either.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I know what EP's mean, but it's still not convincing. I've ridden higher point hubs, and I didn't ride any better. My riding is technically oriented, with lots of ratcheting as the bike rocks back and forth to get over obstacles, and it's not been a hindrance in any way to have "only" 24 points, and my gf, riding on 18 star ratchet points. I can and possibly will get a lower degree of engagement hub, simply as if I get something else, I don't like going lateral. I have been enticed into thinking about Kings, True Precision, and a couple others in higher and lower ranges.

    Instead, I could just blow my money on a German tool set. It's preference and a higher engagement point is for the feel, not for much else. One will still make it over the same technical sections, and so long as they're pedaling, the rider won't know the difference between hub engagement, so long as it's strong enough for them.

    No one is talking about mechanism drag, either.
    Thank You very much. Your knowledge is helping me understand how to build me & my wifes' bikes better.
    roccowt.
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  69. #69
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    If you want engagment and want Hope Price, just use a HOPE SS/Trials hub. It comes with 10mm bolt in and can use 6 cogs on it's freehub body AND has 48 pts of engagment AND costs the same or maybe slightly more than the standard hub AND come with the Stainless Steel freehub
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  70. #70
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    If the Acros hub has 5 pawls and 30 EPs then 50 x 3 = 150 (360 / 150 = 2.4 degrees)

    I9 has 120 EPs and 6 Pawls… but they engage 3 pawls @ a time so the mathematical expression is 120 x 2 = 240 (360 / 240 = 1.5 degrees)

    Hope 24 x 4 = 96 (360 / 96 =3.75 degrees)

    Hadley 72 x 3 = 216 (360 / 216 = 1.667 degrees)

    Shimano XT 770 (10 degrees)

    Shimano XTR 970 (10 degrees)

    The above was provided just to provide a look into the differences in EPs, you should take a whole lot more into consideration if your looking for a new hub. Such as price and color is important right?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    If the Acros hub has 5 pawls and 30 EPs then 50 x 3 = 150 (360 / 150 = 2.4 degrees)

    I9 has 120 EPs and 6 Pawls… but they engage 3 pawls @ a time so the mathematical expression is 120 x 2 = 240 (360 / 240 = 1.5 degrees)

    Hope 24 x 4 = 96 (360 / 96 =3.75 degrees)

    Hadley 72 x 3 = 216 (360 / 216 = 1.667 degrees)

    Shimano XT 770 (10 degrees)

    Shimano XTR 970 (10 degrees)

    The above was provided just to provide a look into the differences in EPs, you should take a whole lot more into consideration if your looking for a new hub. Such as price and color is important right?
    Wow, I'm kind of glad you posted that. The math is comical.

  72. #72
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    I understand those who could care less about EP , keep their pedals under power, have no issues during technical climbs etc. but like a lot of things "Personal Preference" can come into play. I don't race, don't ride trials but personally I can feel the lag and though I don't have to worry about losing a race, making a climb or whatever it still an anoyance, for me , just like using a set of grips I don't care for.

  73. #73
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    Have a King rear, and have a Hadley rear. Have used a Hope Bulb. Sure, I prefer the higher engagement, and when on trialsy/slow speed technical stuff it sometimes can make a difference - the slower engagement of the Bulb though never caused me any issues - used on the same trails I was riding the other hubs.

    Had a Hope Bulb that died and early (around six months) death. The internals sorta' just imploded. That experience has made me a bit leery of trying the ProII hubs, but they have pretty good reviews so far... Next time I need a higher end hub, I'll be casting a hairy eyeball upon them. The ProII rear hubs seem to be a nice balance of weight/performance/engagement/durability/price.

    The Hadley and King are both several years old, and all I've done has been basic regular service to both. Both still ticking along without any issues, FWIW.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  74. #74
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    Industry nines with all 6 pawls in are 3 degree pickup.Dont know how you worked yours out.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen
    I ran Shimano & generic hubs for years and had no issues w/ engagement. Bought a CK hub last season and other than more $ and buzzing I thought no big deal. Some time later I had a rim problem so I borrowed a freinds rim w/ a Shimano hub, for a trail ride. I kept thinking something is wrong w/ this hub everytime I try and accelerate there's a lag ??? Well nothing was wrong with the hub I just got used to fast engagement. I built up a second wheelset on Pro II's (24pt) and again lag city - not technical climbing just pushing the pedals down the trail. That coupled w/ the annoying CLACK CLACK I sprung for King's again.
    Exactly. It depends on what you are used to. I was coming off a the higher quality Hope Bulb hub that engaged twice as fast and was nice and quiet and easier to maintain. For 24 teeth the Pro2 engages very slow, like a 16 or 18 tooth hub in effect, due to the rip-saw like shaped teeth.

    I quickly replaced the Pro2 with a Hadley hub with near instant 72 points of engagement, far more refined engineering, and greater stiffness, which are also convertible to 10 and 12mm solid axle. The Hadley is worth far more than the 50% higher price. Absolutely no regrets and only high praise on the Hadley rear hub for rough AM use.

    Now there is the XT M775 hub with very quick 36 points of engagement for 1/3 the price of a Pro2. Without having done intensive research, I haven't heard any downsides other than having to use a $25 adapter from spine mount to 6 bolt rotor mount. They don't have the colored bling options, but would well out perform the Pro2 for more advanced riders. It's too early still to know much about durability, but prior version XT hubs have always held up well for years of AM riding.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    If the Acros hub has 5 pawls and 30 EPs then 50 x 3 = 150 (360 / 150 = 2.4 degrees)

    I9 has 120 EPs and 6 Pawls… but they engage 3 pawls @ a time so the mathematical expression is 120 x 2 = 240 (360 / 240 = 1.5 degrees)

    Hope 24 x 4 = 96 (360 / 96 =3.75 degrees)

    Hadley 72 x 3 = 216 (360 / 216 = 1.667 degrees)

    Shimano XT 770 (10 degrees)

    Shimano XTR 970 (10 degrees)

    The above was provided just to provide a look into the differences in EPs, you should take a whole lot more into consideration if your looking for a new hub. Such as price and color is important right?
    I'm not following what you mean by the pawl count factor in reducing the engagement degrees calculated.

    I counted my Pro2 and it engaged 24 times, although with the extra lag due to the rip-saw like tooth shape it is effectively produced degrees of engagement similar to a hub with 16 to 18 engagement points without any tooth engagement lag. 360/24 = 15 degrees, but actual ride time effect due to tooth shape lag is closer to 360 / 18 = 20 degrees per engagement.

    My Hadley hub's real physical count is 360 / 72 = 5 degrees (having no engagement lag in the tooth/pawl design).

    XT is 360 / 36 = 10 degree (having no engagement lag in the tooth/pawl design), as you correctly said.

    I haven't counted the others. The pawl count factor per EP can increase durability, but is irrelevant to EP degrees.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Exactly. It depends on what you are used to. I was coming off a the higher quality Hope Bulb hub that engaged twice as fast and was nice and quiet and easier to maintain. For 24 teeth the Pro2 engages very slow, like a 16 or 18 tooth hub in effect, due to the rip-saw like shaped teeth.

    I quickly replaced the Pro2 with a Hadley hub with near instant 72 points of engagement, far more refined engineering, and greater stiffness, which are also convertible to 10 and 12mm solid axle. The Hadley is worth far more than the 50% higher price. Absolutely no regrets and only high praise on the Hadley rear hub for rough AM use.

    Now there is the XT M775 hub with very quick 36 points of engagement for 1/3 the price of a Pro2. Without having done intensive research, I haven't heard any downsides other than having to use a $25 adapter from spine mount to 6 bolt rotor mount. They don't have the colored bling options, but would well out perform the Pro2 for more advanced riders. It's too early still to know much about durability, but prior version XT hubs have always held up well for years of AM riding.

    Edit: Posted on wrong Quote...
    Last edited by flyag1; 02-04-2009 at 08:03 PM.

  78. #78
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    Ok here is the way it's supose to work: Let's asume you have 2 pawls and they are offset 1/2 the distance between the drive gear teeth. You could only have one pawl meshed with the drive gear.... 1 pawl between drive gears and the second pawl would be sitting on top of a drive gear. In this example there is no way to have both pawls engaged at the same time. This is a simple way for a manufacture to double EPs. Say the hub only has 20 gear teeth, but has 2 offset pawls... you have 40 possible EPs.

    Now what if you have 3 pawls and they are offset from each other like in the first example, only 1 pawl can mess with a gear tooth.... you could have 20 gear teeth and 3 possibilities for engagement. (20 x 3 = 60 EPs)

    In the case with I9 hubs you have 6 pawls, however unlike the 3 pawl example above I9 says they have 3 pawls engaged at any given time... which indicated they have 3 pawls evenly spaced to form a group and then they add a second group of 3 that are evenly spaced. However group 1 and group 2 are offset from each other, basically you end up with 2 (3 pawl groups) For calculating engagement points you may as well have a 2 pawl hub. So if I9 hubs have 120 gear teeth and they have 2 (sets of 3 pawls) you end up with (120 x 2 =240 EPs)

    In the case with the Shimano hubs, they have 1 pawl and 36 gear teeth. (360 / 36 = 10) Hence they advertise there hubs as having 10 degree engagement.

    Note: Don't hold me to the total EPs on the I9, I am using second hand info to calculate the EPs. For that matter don't trust anything written above, go do your homework and become informed. Maybe you can prove me wrong? After all it's your bike and your money

  79. #79
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    What a confusion flyag1.

    When people talk about POE (or EP) it means the number of times the hub engages in one revolution. How many pawls engage at a time and how many teeth there are in the hub it's irrelevant. For example. Hope hubs have 24 teeth and 4 pawls engaging simultaneously, hence 24 POE. The same number of POE could have been achieved with 12 teeth and 2 groups of 2 pawls engaging at different times (offset pawls).

    Your numbers are completely wrong because you used the effective POE as the number of teeth and multiplied by the number of pawls assuming that only one pawl engaged at a time. In almost all examples you gave, one or both are not true.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    What a confusion flyag1.

    When people talk about POE (or EP) it means the number of times the hub engages in one revolution. How many pawls engage at a time and how many teeth there are in the hub it's irrelevant. For example. Hope hubs have 24 teeth and 4 pawls engaging simultaneously, hence 24 POE. The same number of POE could have been achieved with 12 teeth and 2 groups of 2 pawls engaging at different times (offset pawls).

    Your numbers are completely wrong because you used the effective POE as the number of teeth and multiplied by the number of pawls assuming that only one pawl engaged at a time. In almost all examples you gave, one or both are not true.
    So you are saying I am wrong about the I9 hub having 2 (sets of 3 pawls) and only have 1 of those groups engaging at once? Could you please prove you point if that is what your saying.

    For the record: I the I9 has 60 teeth and 6 paws for a total 120 EPs. That is (2 groups of 3) engaging at different times.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Exactly. It depends on what you are used to. I was coming off a the higher quality Hope Bulb hub that engaged twice as fast and was nice and quiet and easier to maintain. For 24 teeth the Pro2 engages very slow, like a 16 or 18 tooth hub in effect, due to the rip-saw like shaped teeth.

    I quickly replaced the Pro2 with a Hadley hub with near instant 72 points of engagement, far more refined engineering, and greater stiffness, which are also convertible to 10 and 12mm solid axle. The Hadley is worth far more than the 50% higher price. Absolutely no regrets and only high praise on the Hadley rear hub for rough AM use.

    Now there is the XT M775 hub with very quick 36 points of engagement for 1/3 the price of a Pro2. Without having done intensive research, I haven't heard any downsides other than having to use a $25 adapter from spine mount to 6 bolt rotor mount. They don't have the colored bling options, but would well out perform the Pro2 for more advanced riders. It's too early still to know much about durability, but prior version XT hubs have always held up well for years of AM riding.
    Ray,

    How come you haven't answered this thread on the outright LIES you've posted and got caught on, with respect to the ProII this time?

    New AM wheelset for my ibis!

    You even had your friends reveal some of your bone-headed moves with it, such as turning it into a gearbox by filling it with oil, which revealed why it would "leak oil", as you mentioned.

    If you'd like, i'll repost here.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    So you are saying I am wrong about the I9 hub having 2 (sets of 3 pawls) and only have 1 of those groups engaging at once? Could you please prove you point if that is what your saying.

    For the record: I the I9 has 60 teeth and 6 paws for a total 120 EPs. That is (2 groups of 3) engaging at different times.
    That is correct, but in you calculations you assumed 120 teeth and 2 groups for a total of 240 engagement points and 1.5 degrees between engagement, which is wrong.

    Wrong
    Hope 24 x 4 = 96 (360 / 96 =3.75 degrees)

    Right
    Hope 360/24 = 15 degrees (4 pawls at simultaneously, not one at a time)

    Wrong
    Hadley 72 x 3 = 216 (360 / 216 = 1.667 degrees)

    Right
    Hadley 360/72 = 5 degrees (don't know the specific arrangement)

    Wrong
    I9 has 120 EPs and 6 Pawls… but they engage 3 pawls @ a time so the mathematical expression is 120 x 2 = 240 (360 / 240 = 1.5 degrees)

    Right
    I9 60x2=120 (360/120 = 3 degrees)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk Chicken
    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    If the Acros hub has 5 pawls and 30 EPs then 50 x 3 = 150 (360 / 150 = 2.4 degrees)

    I9 has 120 EPs and 6 Pawls… but they engage 3 pawls @ a time so the mathematical expression is 120 x 2 = 240 (360 / 240 = 1.5 degrees)

    Hope 24 x 4 = 96 (360 / 96 =3.75 degrees)

    Hadley 72 x 3 = 216 (360 / 216 = 1.667 degrees)

    Shimano XT 770 (10 degrees)

    Shimano XTR 970 (10 degrees)

    The above was provided just to provide a look into the differences in EPs, you should take a whole lot more into consideration if your looking for a new hub. Such as price and color is important right?
    Wow, I'm kind of glad you posted that. The math is comical.

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