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  1. #1
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    Whyte 46: Anyone riding this bike?

    This looks like a great possibility for a light AM rig. They don't get a lot of playtime here in the states... but what can you tell me about them? I think there's some guys from the UK on the board who ride them. Give me the goods.

    Durablity, stateside dealers, etc? It looks like it would have a pretty quiet drive train with that high swingarm.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    This looks like a great possibility for a light AM rig. They don't get a lot of playtime here in the states... but what can you tell me about them? I think there's some guys from the UK on the board who ride them. Give me the goods.

    Durablity, stateside dealers, etc? It looks like it would have a pretty quiet drive train with that high swingarm.
    The Marin Attack Trail. Same suspension designer did both. While I was helping a friend shop for her new trail bike (she got a 575), she test rode the Marin at the LBS and liked it. Plus, for $2500 this deal on the Marin is smoking for the spec!
    http://www.bobs-bicycles.com/catalog...roducts_id=405

  3. #3
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    OK - I live here in the UK and these are/were all the rage, as the guy (Jon Whyte) who designs them is UK born and bred - so all the press support these bikes, they had about a million column inches of reviews.

    I personally don't own one, so bear th.at in mind. But I will try to summarise what I recall from a large number of reviews, from a variety of mags (from AM to DH)......together with my limited ride time on one.

    Generally - nice bikes. Long travel XC for sure rather than Freeride if you like. Probably the only 30lbs 6" bike out there. As a package deal, they are very well finished with UK-centric kit (and the press here are fiercly loyal to UK brands, Hope etc....) and they are well suited to UK riding (relatively low speed, technical, lots of climbing, no lifts) and the XC crowd love then as they are not "wallowy" like a big bike with super soft suspension set ups.

    There are some characteristics to the ride that stand out, and were immediately noticable even on my ten minute ride. The BB is sooooooo high you feel like you are climbing on the bike, and that you are a million miles in the air. This does give good pedal clearance, but also lousy balance/high speed stability. Personally - this is it's worts feature IMO, but thats a personal thing.

    The suspension is not linear in feel, with a distinctly VPP-type feel rather than, say, a Horst Link bike. They do climb really well. They do not appear to give as much grip going down as a HL bike.

    The fork is probably also a love/hate item. They are MEGA-light for a 6" fork, but the are noodle-soft. You can feel the bike pull to one side with the front brake on hard, and you can see the whole thing twist. Compared to a Fox for e.g., you feel like the thing could break - but it won't. However, it's MEGA light - for XC type riding is't ideal and the front end of the bike feels soooo nice and light. The wind-down feature also aids climbing.

    People seem to like the "big-gripper" rear dropouts, good and stiff. The frame is not that stiff, but is strong enough. Package is not back value for money all round. Everyone in the UK loves/raves about Conti Gravity tyres and Hope brakes (with goodridge lines).

    My opinion - Pros - good for XC, light, perfect all day ride for people who like to ride, not jump/race. Negs - too high off the damn ground/unstable at speed/steep geometry, the fork (which apparently also leaks a fair bit too), I hate the Hope brakes and Conti tyres (and I have used both extensively).

    All round, IMO, good for someone coming from a 3" bike, who is XC orientated. Fantastically fast by comparison to a 3" bike.Not wallowy, climbs like a mountain goat, light as hell. Not for people who thrash DH, jump a lot, like to ride a bit of north shore/pull manuals/ride drops.To you, this will feel like a noodle and you will break things.

    I think that's a balanced representation of what was said about the bike all round. Bear in mind for UK riding, they have lifetime bearing warranty, loads of mud clearance, good weatherproofing etc, all of which makes a lot of difference to a lot of people here. Personally I ride a low-BB, super stable Spesh Enduro with a 36, which is not as fast uphill, but would thrash the White downhill. Personal taste.

    Hope this helps.

  4. #4
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    It's my top choice for 6 inches now

    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    This looks like a great possibility for a light AM rig. They don't get a lot of playtime here in the states... but what can you tell me about them? I think there's some guys from the UK on the board who ride them. Give me the goods.

    Durablity, stateside dealers, etc? It looks like it would have a pretty quiet drive train with that high swingarm.
    I rode the Marin Wolf Ridge without platform shock with same Tara-Quad suspension (the curving top tube style looks like the only difference with the 46, and the spec fork difference). I've test ridden a number of 6 inch type bikes now, this one is the most versatile for climbing and handling adjustment. It's designed for use with the simple early 2000 Float air shock, no need of platform or firm compression for stable pedaling and handling. A call to the Marin tech support about a year ago revealed they ride with a DHX Coil but you've got to be careful to spring the DHX Coil not too soft due to the falling rate linkage deep in travel. I think a Roco would allow you to adjust much more rising rate and no platform for much better bump performance without sacrificing climbing efficiency.

    I like the Whyte Tara Quad (Wolf Ridge) performance effects more than the Intense 6.6. I hear the Nomad handles better with it's slacker angles but I didn't like the VPP suspension stiffening feedback when climbing, but I'm probably over sensitive to feedback compared to younger harder riders.

    Longer travel Horst link gives up too much without firmer damping. Low monopivot, ICT, and Specialized FSR are most dependant on shock design for hard climbing efficiency in tradeoff of bump compliance. This Whyte design bike is solid climbing without firm damping but sucks up bumps while pedaling hard without the stiffening feel.

    You can get a pretty good build for about $2000 from Adrenalinbikes.com and they can swap some components and custom spec with a low base frame price. I speced one out figuring I'd be swapping my Nixon and Hope Bulb wheels putting the lighter Float fork and WTB/Mavic wheels on my Tracer. I was really close to buying it in February but I put an SL link and the Nixon on my Tracer and it’s a major change I’m enjoying a lot now.

    I've since ridden the MKiii recently and it's superb pedaling quality without platform, like Horst link but more stable pedaling with buttery pedaling even into sharp bumps, even better than the Hollowpoint pedaling and braking. There's going to be a DW-Link Iron Horse 6-POINT AM type bike with about the same frame weight as the Whyte (about 7.5 lbs with RP3) next fall (probably later). DW is testing prototypes now with planned '07 model. And then there's the coming Ibis Mojo, low priced full builds or frame only, stupid light, stiff and plenty of tire clearance, 5.5 pound frame with RP3 and 5.5 inch DW-Link big bearing suspension. I saw the final pre-production prototype and it's really Mercedes finish quality with very solid looking engineering (it uses an Intense rear deraillieur hanger).

    If it weren’t for these two coming options, I'd buy the Wolf Ridge and coil suspend it.

    I'm most interested in very efficient climbing with fast damping, butter pedal bump compliance, lighter weight (to 30 lbs max with coil suspension), quality downhill handling. The wish list is in this order: Mojo, 6POINT, Wolf Ridge, 575. I'll stick with my 4.5 inch Tracer (with SL link and Nixon Elite) before any other AM offering for now. After test riding the 6.6 recently I've lost all interest in VPP for my uses, VPP is optimized for the big ring and pedal jacks too much in the smaller rings in my opinion. But over the top hard climbing riders would probably prefer VPP to anything except DW link with the same travel.



    - ray

  5. #5
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    But you left one bike out...

    I test rode a ton of bikes when I was looking to replace my 5" single pivot bike. I went down to Adrenaline and rode the Attack trail. Test rode a Nomad, 575, 6.6. my brothers MKIII. All the bikes were great on my list and all ride within 9/10ths of each other but the one bike that left a lasting impression was the Giant Reign. Excellent pedaling and crazy smooth bump absorption at the same time. I can roll over a 6" curb and not feel a thing, no bucking- just a nice thump thump. I can also drop her into granny and pedal up anything. The rear end of this bike just grabs like crazy going up. But the biggest difference I notice with this bike was going down loose sketchy rutted rocky trails. The back end just follows every nook and cranny, great breaking bite. I'm really surprised more people in the 6" bike market aren’t looking at this bike more. And mine isn't very heavy considering I could shave allot in the weight department (probably 1.5 to 2lbs) with a lighter wheelset and crankset. The reign is a serious 6" travel bike.

    Parts Spec:

    * Frame Size & Color: (Small)16" Silver
    * Fork: Manitou Nixon Elite, Travel Limiters Removed
    * Brakes: Hayes Mag Ti
    * Cranks: Race Face Ride XC
    * Front Derailleur: LX
    * Rear Derailleur: XT
    * Pedals: Time Attack
    * Stem: Tompson 90x5
    * Handlebar: Easton EA70 Monkey Light
    * Seatpost: Tompson Elite
    * Saddle: WTB Stealth Ti
    * Bottom Bracket: Race Face Isis
    * Cassette: XT
    * Headset: Aheadset
    * Grips: WTB
    * Front Tire: Spec'd Resolution Pro 2.0
    * Front Rim: Alex DP20
    * Front Hub/Skewer: DT
    * Rear Tire: Spec'd Resolution Pro 2.0
    * Rear Rim: Alex DP20
    * Rear Hub/Skewer: DT
    * Weight: 31 lbs

    Last edited by CAK; 04-28-2006 at 12:37 AM.
    I'd Kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

  6. #6
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    I'm in the UK and I've resently got a 46
    still on a learning curve at the moment but I'll give the best info I have so far,
    firstly I come from an XC background though riding 4" F/R travel bike sub 25lbs (prior to this I raced MX),

    yes they are pretty damn light,they look heavy but your amazed when you pick one up,
    claimed weight is 28lbs,the old bathroom scales say around 29ish so probably about right,
    the b/b height is high, some tests noted it and loved it others commented on it regarding slow speed stability,personally can't say I've even noticed it though I now never clip my pedals whilst cornering,you can fit the alpine link which lowers the b/b height and slackens the head angle if this style is more suited to you,the alpine link got rave reviews,

    climbing grip is unbelievably good,better than my XC rig (which has a dig in suspension setup),obviously not so fast but quick enough,

    still getting used to the suspension and trying different settings but its light years ahead of what I'm used to (or tested),bit like a magic carpet ride, its so smooth you tend to look for the rougher lines just to see if takes it (so far it has),

    I do alot of single track as well an it dealt with that better than the xc rig,very sharp handing at speed,

    for a monocoque frame its pretty quiet,still get a bit of chainslap even with the high s/arm

    5 year warranty on the frame,lifetime warranty on all linkage bearings,
    Fox RP3 shock come with Whyte's lifetime pivot bearings also,

    6" travel front and rear but you can reduce this on the fly to 4" F/R,never found the need to use this option and many say they should do away with it,on the fork I think it could be handy to keep for those very steep climbs,
    biggripper great idea a little fiddlerly on the r/der side but okay once you get the hang of it,
    the new for 06 seatpost clamp is another clever idea,doesn't squeeze the frame,Easton rates it highly for there carbon posts,

    sizing is important with these,normally I ride a large but the medium was the best for me,

    also remember US spec Marin's are different to UK spec Marin's,different geometry etc and Whyte's are different to them both though they share the same designer,Jon Whyte ex Bennetton F1 suspension guru to M schumacher when he become F1 world champ,he took up mtbing literally to save his life (F1 stress),


    As for tests the UK mag's do rave about them but I really do not think they are bias,they just say it as it is,remember here in the UK were famous for putting ourselves down,but search on the net you will find tests from New zealand Australia etc all very positive,

    in the UK with its top line spec it pretty cheap compared to other rigs
    for the US I think it would be uneconomical to import one though ATB sales do supply Whyte's to the US according to there website.
    http://www.atb-sales.co.uk/index1.html

    Sorry I can't give more info only done 150miles on it so far but I love it.

    My 46's spec

    Whyte46

    Frame Size & Colour: Medium/silver (polished look)
    * Fork: Maverick DUC32
    * Brakes: Hope M4's 200/180 floating rotors
    * Brake lines: Goodridge
    * Cranks: 06 XT
    * Front Derailleur: 06 XT
    * Rear Derailleur: 06 XT
    * Pedals: Eggbeaters
    * Stem: Maverick intergrated adjustable length,100mm/110mm
    * Handlebar: Easton monkeylite carbon O/S
    * Seatpost: Whyte (going to change to Easton EC70 carbon) retained by Whyte's Getta-Grip system
    * Saddle: SDG Ti railed
    * Bottom Bracket: 06 XT intergrated
    * Cassette: 06 XT
    * Headset: Canecreek S2
    * Grips: Whyte lockon's
    * Front Tire: Continental vapor kevlar bead 2.3 though I'm using 2.1
    * Front Rim: Mavic X717 Disc
    * Front Hub/Skewer: Maverick with 24mm axle
    * Rear Tire: Continental vapor kevlar bead 2.3 though I'm using 2.1
    * Rear Rim: Mavic X717 Disc
    * Rear Hub/Skewer: Hope Pro with Ti freehub,Whyte biggripper axle system
    * Weight: 28lbs
    * Travel front: 6" adjustable to 4" on the fly
    * Travel rear: 6" adjustable to 4" on the fly
    * Rear shock: Custom Fox RP3
    * R/suspension type: Whyte Quad link,intelligent wheel path system http://www.whytebikes.com/whyte/index.html
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    Last edited by 856er; 04-28-2006 at 08:44 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChamMTB
    OK - I live here in the UK and these are/were all the rage, as the guy (Jon Whyte) who designs them is UK born and bred - so all the press support these bikes, they had about a million column inches of reviews.

    I personally don't own one, so bear th.at in mind. But I will try to summarise what I recall from a large number of reviews, from a variety of mags (from AM to DH)......together with my limited ride time on one.

    Generally - nice bikes. Long travel XC for sure rather than Freeride if you like. Probably the only 30lbs 6" bike out there. As a package deal, they are very well finished with UK-centric kit (and the press here are fiercly loyal to UK brands, Hope etc....) and they are well suited to UK riding (relatively low speed, technical, lots of climbing, no lifts) and the XC crowd love then as they are not "wallowy" like a big bike with super soft suspension set ups.

    There are some characteristics to the ride that stand out, and were immediately noticable even on my ten minute ride. The BB is sooooooo high you feel like you are climbing on the bike, and that you are a million miles in the air. This does give good pedal clearance, but also lousy balance/high speed stability. Personally - this is it's worts feature IMO, but thats a personal thing.

    The suspension is not linear in feel, with a distinctly VPP-type feel rather than, say, a Horst Link bike. They do climb really well. They do not appear to give as much grip going down as a HL bike.

    The fork is probably also a love/hate item. They are MEGA-light for a 6" fork, but the are noodle-soft. You can feel the bike pull to one side with the front brake on hard, and you can see the whole thing twist. Compared to a Fox for e.g., you feel like the thing could break - but it won't. However, it's MEGA light - for XC type riding is't ideal and the front end of the bike feels soooo nice and light. The wind-down feature also aids climbing.

    People seem to like the "big-gripper" rear dropouts, good and stiff. The frame is not that stiff, but is strong enough. Package is not back value for money all round. Everyone in the UK loves/raves about Conti Gravity tyres and Hope brakes (with goodridge lines).

    My opinion - Pros - good for XC, light, perfect all day ride for people who like to ride, not jump/race. Negs - too high off the damn ground/unstable at speed/steep geometry, the fork (which apparently also leaks a fair bit too), I hate the Hope brakes and Conti tyres (and I have used both extensively).

    All round, IMO, good for someone coming from a 3" bike, who is XC orientated. Fantastically fast by comparison to a 3" bike.Not wallowy, climbs like a mountain goat, light as hell. Not for people who thrash DH, jump a lot, like to ride a bit of north shore/pull manuals/ride drops.To you, this will feel like a noodle and you will break things.

    I think that's a balanced representation of what was said about the bike all round. Bear in mind for UK riding, they have lifetime bearing warranty, loads of mud clearance, good weatherproofing etc, all of which makes a lot of difference to a lot of people here. Personally I ride a low-BB, super stable Spesh Enduro with a 36, which is not as fast uphill, but would thrash the White downhill. Personal taste.

    Hope this helps.
    I own an Attack Trail in the US. Here is what I think of the design:
    1. Def. more of an long travel xc/light fr - I ride mine hard 4'+ drops here in the us at 250lbs and it soaks everything up. I usually ride in 5" mode. With a bike at 30lbs, I couldnt ask for much more, and asking for more would be asking to break something. Not the only 30lb 6" bike out there, but a damn good one, especially for the price point.
    2. For the rocky austin area terrain, I love the high bb. LOVE not smacking my pedals all the time. I havent noticed a real trade off in center of gravity. High speed stability is good. Steeps can be a bit twitchy, but that is all personal. I climb to get to the fun stuff,
    3. Bike climbs great. Seriously better than my i-drive before it. I never use the lockout, as the suspension is good enough and the terrain here is too rocky to lockout on the climbs!
    4. Suspension feel: Cited as not linear above. This adjustable suspension ahs the following characteristics: 4"= rising rate, 5"= linear, 6"= falling rate. The DHX coil would be a good option, especially in 5" or 5.5" - I do NOT notice a difference in climbing prowese b/t the settings. I have yet to bottom out the shocks in 5" mode. And I am heavy.
    5. Suspension class: def. VPPish - it has a floating pivot point. It is very nice, with a good bit of bite for the climbs. Takes square edge hits well. I like it.
    6. No special dropouts on this bike- the newer brit version has them i think.
    7. monoque=noise amplification. despite high swingarm, chainslap is still there. a bit noisier than my other bike, but sooo worth the tradeoff. still quite enough that I sneak up on deer on teh trails!

    All in all, def a great performing light fr/ long travel XC bike. If you want FR, get something burley like a quake or preston or something. The difference b/t this frame and most fr frames is about 3lbs. That is a 40% increase in the amount of metal holding the bike together!


    As for your riding a Spec Enduro w/ a 36 - Definitely two completely different bikes built for different purposes. You seem to have researched this whyte design a fair amount and have chosen what is best for you. From my viewing, the enduro is sweet, but at 38lbs for a new build and slack geo, not fitting for 18mi backcountry riding that is good climbs with lots of limestone ledges and rocks. To each his own.

    I have to say for someone who doesn't ride the whyte regularly, you know your stuff- overall nice evaluation!!!

    Happy Trails!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    6. No special dropouts on this bike- the newer brit version has them i think.
    together!



    !
    UK 06 Marins don't have the biggripper dropouts,
    could come down to production volumes,Whytes are relatively a small volume manufacturer.

    Whyte's explaination on the quad link system.

    Whyte’s supremely efficient QUAD-Link system is built around an intelligent four bar linkage giving unbeatable lightweight, longterm performance to the E-5 and the 46.
    Fundamental to the QUAD-Link system is the intelligent wheel path. Early on in its travel the wheel moves back as well as up, encouraging the suspension to lift the wheel smoothly over roots and rocks. Further through the travel the wheel-path moves forward towards the BB, optimising chaingrowth to eliminate bobbing and pedal feedback. Combined with the intelligent wheel-to-shock ratio, the result is a sublimely efficient system that delivers fantastic small bump response, phenomenal traction and lightning responses to rider input.


    We only use Full Compliment radial bearings in Whyte suspension pivots. These bearings are designed specifically for high load, low rotation speed applications - rather than the more commonly used wheel bearings which are designed to work effectively only when they are spinning at a high speed. All our pivot bearings are double sealed with a viscous Molycote grease which keeps out the grit and grime found on every UK trail. This unique bearing system will give a lifetime of super-plush, stiction free performance, which promises low cost of ownership and peace of mind. All our pivot bearings are guaranteed for life so you won’t ever have to worry.


    Chaingrowth occurs when the distance between the centre of the bottom bracket and the centre of the rear wheel increases during rear suspension movement. Too little chaingrowth will make the suspension bob and cause the wheel to lose traction. Too much chaingrowth will cause the bike to rise on every pedal stroke and transfer the shock of any big bumps through the transmission to the rider – this is known as pedal feedback. The QUAD-Link system has been designed to optimise chaingrowth for maximum efficiency throughout the suspension travel, generating enough early on in its travel to pull the wheel into the ground providing fantastic traction over small to medium sized bumps. Further through its travel, the QUAD-Link’s chaingrowth gradually reduces to zero, virtually eliminating pedal feedback.

    Shorter links are faster to react, lighter and considerably stiffer. This gives the Whyte QUAD-Link system definite advantages: the high speed at which the links can move allows rapid controlled shifts in the IPC; and we can place the links outside the wheel area which allows us to bolt right through the links with a single bolt – this is a considerably stiffer method of construction than having links either side of the wheel.

    The Instantaneous Pivot Centre (IPC) and its movement during the suspension travel determines the suspension characteristics of the bike and, therefore, how it responds to terrain and rider input. Whyte’s intelligent system constantly adjusts its IPC. So no matter where the suspension is in its travel the IPC is in the optimum position, providing maximum suspension performance and pedalling efficiency.


    Most suspension bikes drive the shock off a rotating linkage with a fixed pivot centre. This has the effect of making the shock movement proportional to the wheel movement throughout the travel. With the QUAD-Link system the shock is driven directly off the swingarm. This allows us to tune our shock to move proportionally less early in the travel, making the suspension incredibly sensitive. As the wheel moves through its travel the wheel to shock ratio decreases, preventing the bike from blowing through its travel.



    By allowing the wheel to move backwards early in its travel, the QUAD-Link system’s ability to respond to square edged bumps is unparalleled. Even the smallest bump activates the suspension, keeping the wheel in constant contact with the ground and improving traction.

    About one-third of the way through the travel, the wheel’s arc returns toward the bottom bracket, optimising chaingrowth and virtually eliminating pedal induced feedback.


    Following Whyte’s straightforward approach of form follows function the QUAD-Link system has clean, symmetrical lines. No unsightly braces or complex, bolt-on devices. The totally balanced, symmetrical assembly gives uncompromised handling – very important when you’re pushing a bike to the limit.
    Last edited by 856er; 04-28-2006 at 08:55 AM.

  9. #9
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    Putting on alot more miles and starting to get to grips with the setups etc now with the 46,
    Quad suspension very plush through the first part of the stroke
    you can just sit and pedal all day and barely notice whats going on underneath you,

    flicking in to propedal does make a difference but I found it only of benefit on smooth terrain
    or roads (sometimes you have to use these to get to the trails),

    fully opening up the shock made for a very smooth ride on a fast tricky desents,
    shock fully open and off some jumps (around 2-3') still never bottomed out the shock
    which made a nice change,
    the quad link ramping up the shock at the end of the stroke seems to be the reason for this,very smooth transmission through the stroke though,pretty seamless,

    past bikes had interupted seat tubes, this with a full length seat tube is great,tackled some near vertical decents and being able to drop the saddle made life so much more reasuring,
    must get some pic's

    forks have impressed me but it feels a little over damped on compression,apprently you can swap the shim stacks around to cure this so may do this soon,

    Climbing grip (which I've previously mentioned) is outstanding,really can't emphasise this enough,

    200mm Hope M'4s on the front but I can't get it to pull to the left (as has been mentioned)no matter how hard I try
    if anyone's do I can only think its a fork fault ? maybe a problem with the hub axle in the dropouts,forks very stiff fore and arft so can't see flex there causing it,anyway mine's fine and thats all that counts

    Geometry is pretty XC bias and you notice this on how well it copes with single track,fast steering with a 69.3 deg head angle,you can add the bolt on alpine link which lowers the B/B by 10mm (just under 1/2") it also relaxes the head angle and seat angle by 1 deg,
    very good reviews and owners comments,ideal for those who are a little more freeride/decent oriented,

    Sizing is tricky, large has a 23 3/8" (593.9mm) top tube and stem adjustable (110mm/120
    mm)
    medium has a 22 7/16" (570.5mm) top tube and adjustable stem (80/90mm I think),

    tested and bought the large (I'm 6'1") but after a while felt abit too stretched out , I was lucky I had a cosmetic issue with the frame so swapped it out for a medium but kept the longer stem, also as the headtube is shorter on the medium they also supplied the required upper fork crown,all this under warranty collected and supplied in 48hrs
    the medium also has a lot more standover height,

    I'm having a little trouble with ghost shifting on the front rings,dropping from middle to small ring on some certain hits,gonna have to fettle with this,
    paint on 04 and early 05 models was quite an issue, the 06 seems to be coping very well no chips yet despite riding some loose stoney terrain, new paint colour IMO is much nicer
    and a what appears a nice thick clearcoat lacquer,

    an occasional annoying rattle from shifter cables in there guides,think some O rings in there will sort it,
    a little chainslap but much less than other bikes I've ridden/owned with low chainstays,s/arm paint work still unmarked from the chain,

    as turns out from my experiance perfect bike if you don't like pushing your bike at all,
    enjoy fast single track and like staying seated and plowing through whatevers in your path,like fast technical decents,and take the occasional big hit,


    Not for big jumpers, Freeriders and extreme D/H er's etc,

    but as an everyday all day rig its perfect.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 856er
    Putting on alot more miles and starting to get to grips with the setups etc now with the 46,
    Quad suspension very plush through the first part of the stroke
    you can just sit and pedal all day and barely notice whats going on underneath you,

    flicking in to propedal does make a difference but I found it only of benefit on smooth terrain
    or roads (sometimes you have to use these to get to the trails),

    fully opening up the shock made for a very smooth ride on a fast tricky desents,
    shock fully open and off some jumps (around 2-3') still never bottomed out the shock
    which made a nice change,
    the quad link ramping up the shock at the end of the stroke seems to be the reason for this,very smooth transmission through the stroke though,pretty seamless,

    past bikes had interupted seat tubes, this with a full length seat tube is great,tackled some near vertical decents and being able to drop the saddle made life so much more reasuring,
    must get some pic's

    forks have impressed me but it feels a little over damped on compression,apprently you can swap the shim stacks around to cure this so may do this soon,

    Climbing grip (which I've previously mentioned) is outstanding,really can't emphasise this enough,

    200mm Hope M'4s on the front but I can't get it to pull to the left (as has been mentioned)no matter how hard I try
    if anyone's do I can only think its a fork fault ? maybe a problem with the hub axle in the dropouts,forks very stiff fore and arft so can't see flex there causing it,anyway mine's fine and thats all that counts

    Geometry is pretty XC bias and you notice this on how well it copes with single track,fast steering with a 69.3 deg head angle,you can add the bolt on alpine link which lowers the B/B by 10mm (just under 1/2") it also relaxes the head angle and seat angle by 1 deg,
    very good reviews and owners comments,ideal for those who are a little more freeride/decent oriented,

    Sizing is tricky, large has a 23 3/8" (593.9mm) top tube and stem adjustable (110mm/120
    mm)
    medium has a 22 7/16" (570.5mm) top tube and adjustable stem (80/90mm I think),

    tested and bought the large (I'm 6'1") but after a while felt abit too stretched out , I was lucky I had a cosmetic issue with the frame so swapped it out for a medium but kept the longer stem, also as the headtube is shorter on the medium they also supplied the required upper fork crown,all this under warranty collected and supplied in 48hrs
    the medium also has a lot more standover height,

    I'm having a little trouble with ghost shifting on the front rings,dropping from middle to small ring on some certain hits,gonna have to fettle with this,
    paint on 04 and early 05 models was quite an issue, the 06 seems to be coping very well no chips yet despite riding some loose stoney terrain, new paint colour IMO is much nicer
    and a what appears a nice thick clearcoat lacquer,

    an occasional annoying rattle from shifter cables in there guides,think some O rings in there will sort it,
    a little chainslap but much less than other bikes I've ridden/owned with low chainstays,s/arm paint work still unmarked from the chain,

    as turns out from my experiance perfect bike if you don't like pushing your bike at all,
    enjoy fast single track and like staying seated and plowing through whatevers in your path,like fast technical decents,and take the occasional big hit,


    Not for big jumpers, Freeriders and extreme D/H er's etc,

    but as an everyday all day rig its perfect.
    thanks for the write up !

  11. #11
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    DORKMOBIILE DELUXE!

    UK riders are pure gomers, and the Whyte proves it. if you can find an overcomplicated frame that works poorly but looks like some shadetree engineer's wet dream, the UK gomers will be all over it, and will dress it up with highly expensive parts and tell their friends all about its details.

    don't ask about the ride quality. that's irrelevant. the Whyte is all about the pose.

  12. #12
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    And you talk total shite Gonzostrike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlosPirahna
    And you talk total shite Gonzostrike.
    your bogtrotting use of the word "shite" reveals what you're full of.

    you're just upset that your Emperor Whyte's new clothes are NAKEDNESS.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    DORKMOBIILE DELUXE!

    UK riders are pure gomers, and the Whyte proves it. if you can find an overcomplicated frame that works poorly but looks like some shadetree engineer's wet dream, the UK gomers will be all over it, and will dress it up with highly expensive parts and tell their friends all about its details.

    don't ask about the ride quality. that's irrelevant. the Whyte is all about the pose.
    LOL, over complicated what are you 12 ,

    must ride single pivot everything else is too confusing ,

    nice contribution to the thread THANKS sure everyone must now be so well informed

    by your comments,someone who's never seen one let alone ridden one ,

    brilliant you just confirmed to the moron's out there that think those in the U.S are self
    obsessed and anything else is of no interest,well done .

    P.s no offence ment to any U.S citizens of normal rational comments,we've got our own
    idiots as well .

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    your bogtrotting use of the word "shite" reveals what you're full of.

    you're just upset that your Emperor Whyte's new clothes are NAKEDNESS.
    Ummm thats the best you can come up with,
    bloody hell you are 12.

  16. #16
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    He (Gonzo) has'nt got a clue about the British scene, which probably has more varied styles of riding than anywhere else.
    I'm not getting upset because I ride a Yank bike , its Gonzo who has a totally uninformed view of the scene over here. The Whyte is a very, very capable Long travel lightweight XC bike.

  17. #17
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    I have owned many bikes over the years... nothing comes close to the versatility of the Whyte 46 for an All Mountain bike... Which is probably why it was named ‘Bike of the Year’ for two years running in the UK. And no, it is not the same as a Marin – similar in some respects but a different beast. Have a close look at the quad suspension links and front fork.

    I did a 24hr 2 weeks ago running the rear at 4inches during the day and 6inches at night ... though the front was 6in all the time except on the steeper twistier uphills where with a quick flick of the wrist I had 2in less bar height and 2degress more head angle... my bike weighed 28lbs... I could have got it lighter with skinny tyres etc...
    this thing outclimbs my old hardtail on anything but butter smooth trails. Grip is astounding on the uphills. And nothing in an All Mountain bike beats it down the hill – the 6in forks are amazingly plush and I have ridden most every other fork though admittedly a triple clamp DH fork leaves them for dead.
    The front hub has a thru axle. The fork is has two massive cross bars. If anyone says it is not stiff they must be comparing it to a World Cup Boxer. I ride with a club. We swap rides as you do - the Maverick is by far the stiffest fork in the XC set. When we get to a Fox 36 with a thru axle there is some comparison – but the 36 is another half pound or more. The Mav is much more usable though. The height adjustment can be done in qtr second on the fly. The amount of adjustment is amazing. True you do have to change rebound oil, negative springs etc. But at least they are available and easy to do at home. And once done it is no longer touched.

    The Whyte frame is stiff as... it is a welded monocoque! hell guys, to get the same strength in Easton Tubing the frame alone would weigh dam near 9lbs. A welded monocoque is what F1 race cars use – expensive yes, but light and stiff.
    I run the Alpine Link instead of the standard shorter black link. This lowers the BB height to the same as a SC Nomad so it is definitely not weird in that respect. My head angle is 68 deg at 6in and 70 deg at 4 in.

    What other bike can you run at 4in in a twisty XC race then get the big tyres and tubes, bump it up to 6in and bomb some downhill. If you really wanted to get serious you could have a 2nd set of wheels with heavier rims (it comes with Mavic 717’s). It is by far the strongest frame in that weight class and with a thru axle in the front and a 20mm Big Grippers at the rear axle a very strong setup.

    Obviously all this good stuff does not come cheaply. But another way to look at is: how much is a 4in XC racer and 6in All Mountain bike?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    And no, it is not the same as a Marin – similar in some respects but a different beast. Have a close look at the quad suspension links and front fork.
    nice write up - but what do you mean that it is not the same suspension design? Fork is a fork - not part of the Quad Link.
    The rear shock placement, pivot points and rear axel path all appear to be the same as the Marin quad tara.
    Please correct me if i am wrong, and I just might be on this issue.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    nice write up - but what do you mean that it is not the same suspension design? Fork is a fork - not part of the Quad Link.
    The rear shock placement, pivot points and rear axel path all appear to be the same as the Marin quad tara.
    Please correct me if i am wrong, and I just might be on this issue.
    I think what he means is the quad-link setup is slightly different in its locating positions to Marin's,not sure myself if thats correct, I'll have to put them side by side on a linkage simulator one day,and I think he's also just pointing out that the Whyte was designed to use the Maverick DUC 32 fork,apparently Jon Whyte and the owner/designer of Maverick (his name for some reason escapes me at the moment :blush2: ) met each other and had great mutual respect for each other hence the Whyte ended up with DUC32 forks in 04.

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    one clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    nice write up - but what do you mean that it is not the same suspension design? Fork is a fork - not part of the Quad Link.
    The rear shock placement, pivot points and rear axel path all appear to be the same as the Marin quad tara.
    Please correct me if i am wrong, and I just might be on this issue.
    My understanding is that the Marin and Whyte rear ends are identical. But Whyte does spec a linkage fork on some of their bikes, which is considerably different than standard telescoping models.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfodder
    My understanding is that the Marin and Whyte rear ends are identical. But Whyte does spec a linkage fork on some of their bikes, which is considerably different than standard telescoping models.
    The linkage fork PRST bikes are no more,
    New Whyte E-5 model instead.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    Obviously all this good stuff does not come cheaply.
    Impressive review. I rode a Marin Quad link a couple of years a go at interbike and was quite impressed. It seemed plush and efficient. The only thing that rolled over square edge bumps better was the Maverick.

    So.... What does the 46 cost in Yank money?? And are there any Whyte dealers in the US?
    Last edited by KRob; 05-04-2006 at 12:45 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby

    I like the Whyte Tara Quad (Wolf Ridge) performance effects more than the Intense 6.6. I hear the Nomad handles better with it's slacker angles but I didn't like the VPP suspension stiffening feedback when climbing, but I'm probably over sensitive to feedback compared to younger harder riders.
    Nice review. Anything else you didn't like on the 6.6, Ray? I'm about to pull the trigger on one but before I ordered I thought I'd research the 46 a bit after remembering my demo on the quad link suspension . Nice ride. I did notice the pedal stiffening just a bit once or twice on the 6.6... but it didn't bother me. I really liked everything else about it.... except the chain slap noise in the rough stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    There's going to be a DW-Link Iron Horse 6-POINT AM type bike with about the same frame weight as the Whyte (about 7.5 lbs with RP3) next fall (probably later).

    - ray
    Where can I find info on the IH 6 Point? Do they have anything on their website?

    thanks.

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    Plenty of US dealers

    Click here
    http://marinbikes.com/bicycles_2006/...m_dealers.html

    FWIW MBA did a review this month of different trail bike suspension designs and the Quad-link scored very well again, being edged out by the VPP on the Blur. Yeah yeah I know MBA is not the most respected mag but considering Marin spent $0 in advertising with MBA it says a lot about this underrated design.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    Nice review. Anything else you didn't like on the 6.6, Ray? I'm about to pull the trigger on one but before I ordered I thought I'd research the 46 a bit after remembering my demo on the quad link suspension . Nice ride. I did notice the pedal stiffening just a bit once or twice on the 6.6... but it didn't bother me. I really liked everything else about it.... except the chain slap noise in the rough stuff.




    Where can I find info on the IH 6 Point? Do they have anything on their website?

    thanks.
    I didn't take a long ride on the 6.6 and it wasn't in very rough terrain. But I've test ridden so many bikes now I can get a pretty quick sense of the balance compared to the superb balance of my Tracer. I wanted back on my Tracer after just a few minutes on a Blur on rough Moab trail. I imagined the longer travel 6.6 wouldn't jack the pedals as much but it's really not much different. I like pedal bump compliance, not increased pedal resitance from bumps. Also the handling was too quick with a 5.5 inch Nixon fork and the rear squated in corners more than the Nixon. I went back for more air pressure in the rear shock to get it up to 1/3 static sag and the cornering compression rear squat imbalance wasn't much dfferent and the handling was even quicker. The Nomad has slacker angles and should handel better unless you like tip toe handling. I'm exajurating some and more time with the bike could dial it in closer to a good balance. But it seemed like you'd need a 7 inch fork to have good higher speed rough downhill trail handling without hanging way off the rear of the bike. You are a lot strong and lighter rider than me so the feedback may not be such an issue. I need all the pedaling bump compliance I can get without squishy pedaling.

    I like the DW-Link and Whyte's Tara Quad parabolic path effect for much better pedal bump compliance. It feels like a real Horst link does for shorter travel snappy pedaling and bump compliance (not talking about the more anemic monopivot/ICT/FSR/faux-bar pedaling), but better with even less bob and increased pedal bump compliance.

    If you search on _dw posts in the Iron Horse forum you'll find some information on the 6 Point. This thread is pretty good on it and may have got IH serious about producing the 6P :
    Super D --> the ultimate trail bike?



    - ray

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    nice write up - but what do you mean that it is not the same suspension design? Fork is a fork - not part of the Quad Link.
    The rear shock placement, pivot points and rear axel path all appear to be the same as the Marin quad tara.
    Please correct me if i am wrong, and I just might be on this issue.
    Yes you are quite right there Zero... the actual linkage is the same on the Tara Quads...
    I have only ridden the Mount Vision which is the 4in version (the links are quite different) and a Wolf Ridge with a Talas . That was set up with a 5in rear and a 5in fork... It is quite a different feel even though the rear suspension has the same links.

    Having a light 6in fork on the front and bags of comfyiness(?!) on the rear that is super effecient with both an effecient suspension and a 'propedal' style shock is wonderful on long epic rides. That you can then tighten the whole rig up to 4in with tightened geometry for that style of riding is Versatile (with the capital 'V')

    The Maverick DUC32 is an amazing bit of gear. I have the new seals etc so have never had technical probs that others mention. Also it is obvious that some people haven’t read the Maverick setup chart at all if they think there is a rebound problem. (like certain testers in a recent bike mag!) Yes, this fork does require some setup but have you noticed the weight spec?!
    I have mine set up for a very plush first 3in (I have a lighter air negative spring with less air pressure in the compression leg) and a 'stiffer' last 3in (by having more oil in the compression reservoir that quickens the compression rate at the bottom of the curve.) I have swapped to 10wt oil in the rebound leg and left the shims and air alone. This all took around 60min at home. which included a beer...

    One of the better report cards for the 46 comes from a semipro racer on the enduro circuits in Australia. He was given a 46 to race the Mont 24HR which is a rough course. He told me how where everybody else was worrying about lines thru roots and rocks he just ploughed thru the middle and didn't worry. In his opinion the best and most comfortable rig he has ever used in an enduro.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 856er
    The linkage fork PRST bikes are no more,
    New Whyte E-5 model instead.
    Yeah... I had a look at the E-5... nice bike and all but very different from the 46... Nowhere near as versatile for the average punter IMHO... and I don't get those forks either.. mind you, I haven't actually ridden one...

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    we are a Marin dealer but we don't really do much with them and I haven't ridden the bike

    btw, I have two buds who both LOVE their 6.6s
    both have had numerous HL bikes
    Truths (both had)
    original motolites (and current)
    Supermoto
    5 spot (hl)
    tracer

    and I am sure I am missing some

    we live in VERY rocky terrain with lots of short but hard climbs

    I have a 5.5 and while I did not care for the Blur at all, I LOVE the 5.5

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    I've tested the E-5 and it was a close call as to wheather I got the 46 or E-5,
    the E-5 is very light for a 5" travel f/r rig (25lbs),very stiff as well but just not as plush as the 46 and I couldn't really get on with the single crown Maverick forks,probably with some fettling I could of got them how I'd like them,
    I like the DUC 32's however I'd like more details of the tuning you did to these forks Electric Panda,I read in a mag recently that swapping the shim stack around can improve things if you feel the need.

    No U.S dealers as far as I'm aware,only way I think you can get them is through ATB sales in the UK but I'd guess that would be expensive.

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    Hey 856er, the page is on the Maverick site ... there is also good stuff on troubleshooting and service and installation pdf's

    http://www.maverickamerican.com/maverick.manuals.htm

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    Very entertaining thread. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a nice bike and all, but I have a few problems with Whyte bikes.

    For a start:-

    "Fundamental to the QUAD-Link system is the intelligent wheel path. Early on in its travel the wheel moves back as well as up, encouraging the suspension to lift the wheel smoothly over roots and rocks. Further through the travel the wheel-path moves forward towards the BB, optimising chaingrowth to eliminate bobbing and pedal feedback. Combined with the intelligent wheel-to-shock ratio, the result is a sublimely efficient system that delivers fantastic small bump response, phenomenal traction and lightning responses to rider input."

    Blah blah blah "intelligent" this, "intelligent" that, "F1 technology", blah blah, blah
    Techno BS might work on some people, but it doesn't work on engineers. Sorry, but this crap came straight from the marketing department.

    Secondly, just because Whyte was involved in F1, it doesn't make him a mountain bike design god. There are some basic similarities, but there is very little technology carry over from F1 to mountain biking. Someone above mentioned that F1 cars use welded monocoques. Well perhaps back in the 70's they did!

    Thirdly, the UK press pretend they understand all the above techno mumbo jumbo and recite it back in all their reviews, with a clear lack of both physics and engineering knowledge. Why don't they just tell us how well it rides!

    Finally, I actually test rode a 46. It was errmm... not that bad, but certainly nothing special. It was a clanky, noisy, creaky sort of ride and I could feel the flexy fork and rear end far too much for my liking. I also remember the BB was scarily high off the ground. Overall I'd say an interesting attempt at a long travel, lightweight XC concept, but flawed in many ways. The build quality and finish was disappointing too for a £2700 bike. I can weld better than that myself (which isn't saying much). I certainly wouldn't bother importing one into the US, you have enough better bikes to choose from eg. Turner, Ventana, Yeti, etc.

    Unfortunately, I think Gonzostrike sums it up quite well actually!! Sad as it is, many UK riders are gullible dorks, you only have to take a look at Singletrackworld to get the picture.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Overall I'd say an interesting attempt at a long travel, lightweight XC concept, but flawed in many ways. The build quality and finish was disappointing too for a £2700 bike. I can weld better than that myself (which isn't saying much). I certainly wouldn't bother importing one into the US, you have enough better bikes to choose from eg. Turner, Ventana, Yeti, etc.
    Wow, scathing review. I suspect the reality about the 46 is somewhere between ElectricPanda's and 85er's glowing reviews and your total pan of the bike.... but it would have to be all they said and more for me to pay $5K + import taxes and shipping to get one here.

    If one were available from Charles at Hammerheadbikes and at comparable price to a 6.6... and I had a chance to ride one first and found it better.... I'd buy it in a heart beat.


    Lotta if's. It's fun to be different, but if all those "ifs" were in place, I suspect I wouldn't be the only one riding one here in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    Wow, scathing review. I suspect the reality about the 46 is somewhere between ElectricPanda's and 85er's glowing reviews and your total pan of the bike.... but it would have to be all they said and more for me to pay $5K + import taxes and shipping to get one here.
    Actually I was aiming most of my scathing review at the marketing hype and BS surrounding both this bike and the company, rather than the 46 itself. In the UK, we've all had to suffer endless ass-licking reviews of this bike for the past few years - all with at least one reference to "intelligent" suspension and "F1 technology". I wouldn't mind so much if it lived up to its hype, but sadly it doesn't for me. Having said all that it was on my test ride shortlist - perhaps by the time I rode it I was expecting too much

    Leaving aside the marketing hype - which always puts me off, I would say:-

    Pros:
    Light for such long travel - perhaps breaking new ground in the UK (2 years ago that is)

    Cons:
    Frame and forks not stiff enough for some people
    Average build quality

    Oh I give up, I can't think of anything else good to say about the damn thing! Buy a Turner, Ventana, RM or Yeti instead. I think they're all better bikes.

  34. #34
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    1. Of course there is lots of marketing hype – but what mtb company doesn’t…? have you seem how much Specialised spend on convincing us their suspension is the best.? Ventana X5 (glorified Kona’s), RM ETSX (great bike IMO), Yeti 575 (now there is a noodle frame! But it is only meant for XC), Turner’s (glorified Specialised’s)… ridden them all… and all of them have hype as to why you should buy their bike… it’s called capitalism… welcome aboard…

    2. Every magazine in the world uses riders not engineers to write their ‘reviews’. And obviously the technical detail on for example WHY a suspension goes up hills better is missing. Americans mags are the same as are the English and Australians and anybody else.

    3. Whyte does know something about suspension. His working in F1 backs that up.

    4. If your Whyte 46 made noises it is the fault of the mechanics in the shop not the bikes fault

    5. If you thought it was high off the ground – get it with the Alpine link – I don’t know why the British have it like that but it is popular.

    6. yes the early 04 Whyte’s had a problem with paint and finish but not build quality. All version 1’s have problems no matter what company/product.

    7. you say the frame is flexy… compared to what?! It is a welded monocoque… to get the same stiffness in tubing the frame has to be very heavy… that is why they used and still use it in F1 and other high end racing (yes, I appreciate they mostly use dedicated carbon processes now – btw they never did use Easton tubing at any time) …. And if you can weld straighter than a robotic arm every bike company in the world would be knocking at your door… The Maverick fork…. The front hub has a thru axle. The fork is has two massive cross bars. If anyone says it is not stiff they must be comparing it to a World Cup Boxer. I ride with a club. We swap rides as you do - the Maverick is by far the stiffest fork in the XC set. When we get to a Fox 36 with a thru axle there is some comparison – but the 36 is another half pound or more. What fork in this category do you think is stiffer?!


    At the end of the day the quad link suspension is inherently efficient via its wheel path (check it out on a CAD program) that is not to say it is the most efficient – that award would have to go to something like RM’s ETSX and similar – but it is good. You can have 4in rising rate or 6in linear at the flick of QR for the types of riding you are doing today – brilliant and versatile. Same goes with the fork.

    Versatile. Light enough to race at 4in with closer geometry. Beefy enough to hit All Mountain style on 6in with relaxed geometry. What other bike comes close to this? This bike still sets the goal posts for AM bikes. It did when it won ‘Bike of the Year’ twice in a row and still does.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    1. Of course there is lots of marketing hype – but what mtb company doesn’t…? have you seem how much Specialised spend on convincing us their suspension is the best.? Ventana X5 (glorified Kona’s), RM ETSX (great bike IMO), Yeti 575 (now there is a noodle frame! But it is only meant for XC), Turner’s (glorified Specialised’s)… ridden them all… and all of them have hype as to why you should buy their bike… it’s called capitalism… welcome aboard…

    2. Every magazine in the world uses riders not engineers to write their ‘reviews’. And obviously the technical detail on for example WHY a suspension goes up hills better is missing. Americans mags are the same as are the English and Australians and anybody else.

    3. Whyte does know something about suspension. His working in F1 backs that up.

    4. If your Whyte 46 made noises it is the fault of the mechanics in the shop not the bikes fault

    5. If you thought it was high off the ground – get it with the Alpine link – I don’t know why the British have it like that but it is popular.

    6. yes the early 04 Whyte’s had a problem with paint and finish but not build quality. All version 1’s have problems no matter what company/product.

    7. you say the frame is flexy… compared to what?! It is a welded monocoque… to get the same stiffness in tubing the frame has to be very heavy… that is why they used and still use it in F1 and other high end racing (yes, I appreciate they mostly use dedicated carbon processes now – btw they never did use Easton tubing at any time) …. And if you can weld straighter than a robotic arm every bike company in the world would be knocking at your door… The Maverick fork…. The front hub has a thru axle. The fork is has two massive cross bars. If anyone says it is not stiff they must be comparing it to a World Cup Boxer. I ride with a club. We swap rides as you do - the Maverick is by far the stiffest fork in the XC set. When we get to a Fox 36 with a thru axle there is some comparison – but the 36 is another half pound or more. What fork in this category do you think is stiffer?!


    At the end of the day the quad link suspension is inherently efficient via its wheel path (check it out on a CAD program) that is not to say it is the most efficient – that award would have to go to something like RM’s ETSX and similar – but it is good. You can have 4in rising rate or 6in linear at the flick of QR for the types of riding you are doing today – brilliant and versatile. Same goes with the fork.

    Versatile. Light enough to race at 4in with closer geometry. Beefy enough to hit All Mountain style on 6in with relaxed geometry. What other bike comes close to this? This bike still sets the goal posts for AM bikes. It did when it won ‘Bike of the Year’ twice in a row and still does.
    Damn you beat me to it

    what gets me is the constant reference to UK mags UK tests blah blah blah
    so you assume we read a mag review and just go out and spend a load of money
    without a thorougher test first I tested other bikes, owned and own other bikes,even made my own
    bike including aluminium welding on it,

    also as your so anti UK reviews try going through the many threads in these forums and the UK mags are the only
    one's that get constantly excellent comments especially from our American cousin's,
    if a UK mag thought something was poor they damn well say it irrespective
    of where its made,

    and just because its not available in the U.S it doesn't mean its not tested and available
    else where,
    checkout the reviews from Austrailia,New Zealand,South Africa etc can they all be wrong

    poor welding your having a laugh maybe on the 04 model but things have moved on since,
    mine's got some of he best welding I've ever seen and I damn I've seen a lot of welding in my time.
    Last edited by 856er; 05-06-2006 at 04:00 AM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Actually I was aiming most of my scathing review at the marketing hype and BS surrounding both this bike and the company, rather than the 46 itself. In the UK, we've all had to suffer endless ass-licking reviews of this bike for the past few years -
    . Having said all that it was on my test ride shortlist - perhaps by the time I rode it I was expecting too much

    Leaving aside the marketing hype - which always puts me off, I would say:-

    Pros:
    Light for such long travel - perhaps breaking new ground in the UK (2 years ago that is)


    Oh I give up,
    Hmmm reading between the lines your issue is with marketing and your own dislike of marketing etc,

    How sad

    suppose if the same marketing was used with Ventana,RM's,Spec,Yeti etc they'ed
    end up with similar opinion.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    Hey 856er, the page is on the Maverick site ... there is also good stuff on troubleshooting and service and installation pdf's

    http://www.maverickamerican.com/maverick.manuals.htm
    Thanks,dunno why I couldn't find this before,very helpfull
    gonna do some fettling now

  38. #38
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    hey 856er you should check out the Whyte46 owners site if you haven't been there already... my tag there is 'therealdan'

    http://groups.msn.com/Whyte46/_whatsnew.msnw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    hey 856er you should check out the Whyte46 owners site if you haven't been there already... my tag there is 'therealdan'

    http://groups.msn.com/Whyte46/_whatsnew.msnw
    Hey I'm there (only resently) Spannerman167,as you can see I had a couple of issue's
    all sorted now,very happy,will be looking into getting the Alpine-link in the future, you seem
    very keen on it,should be ideal when I get down to Afan.

  40. #40
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    Of course!! should have recognized the red hopes in your avatar!

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    Electric Panda and 856er - You both clearly rate this bike very highly and that's great. I think it's over-hyped, over-complicated and I don't rate the engineering as anything special. We just have different opinions that's all. You're not going to change yours and I'm not going to change mine.

    Nothing wrong with welded monocoques, but for use on a bike frame it's debatable whether they offer any benefit over tubes (spaceframe if you prefer). Monocoques work best when there is decent section to work on. Bikes are basically flat-plane 2-dimensional objects. That's why triangular spaceframes are so popular in bike design.

    And for the last time EP, there are no F1 cars currently using ANY form of "welded" monocoque and tubing is often used in lower forms of motor-racing. There is nothing on the Whyte 46 that has any relevance to F1.

    As for marketing, you both seem to have swallowed the pill judging by some of your earlier posts. You're right I do hate marketing, but luckily I'm pretty immune to it

  42. #42
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    Over-hyped?! what expensive pushbike isn't...

    over-complicated?! suspension 5 pivot points ?! not at all unusual...

    welded monocoques are stiffer and stronger for their weight but expensive to produce... though Whyte is not the only builder using it... (layered carbon is better but no one of the majors in bike land is using it yet in production - The Australian track team had some a few years back)

    2 dimensional?! sit behind a sprinter in a road race watch his frame and tell me about 2 dimensions in a bike frame...

    marketing... it is obvious from both out posts that we have extensive experience with bikes... I put rear suspensions into a CAD program before making my decision for example... IMO Whyte has come up with a design that is more effective, more versatile than any current AM bike for what I want ie it has to race as well as just ride around. My friends have other capable bikes. None of them come close to a Whyte in versatility or effectiveness. 6in of suspension is a major advantage in technical trails. There is not a lot of options here in a light bike. As well as that, not too many bikes allow a 4in setting that changes the geometry as well
    Last edited by Electric Panda; 05-06-2006 at 06:40 AM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Electric Panda and 856er - You both clearly rate this bike very highly and that's great. I think it's over-hyped, over-complicated and I don't rate the engineering as anything special. We just have different opinions that's all. You're not going to change yours and I'm not going to change mine.

    Nothing wrong with welded monocoques, but for use on a bike frame it's debatable whether they offer any benefit over tubes (spaceframe if you prefer). Monocoques work best when there is decent section to work on. Bikes are basically flat-plane 2-dimensional objects. That's why triangular spaceframes are so popular in bike design.

    And for the last time EP, there are no F1 cars currently using ANY form of "welded" monocoque and tubing is often used in lower forms of motor-racing. There is nothing on the Whyte 46 that has any relevance to F1.

    As for marketing, you both seem to have swallowed the pill judging by some of your earlier posts. You're right I do hate marketing, but luckily I'm pretty immune to it
    Actually your not immune to it from your own comments.Quote,Having said all that it was on my test ride shortlist - perhaps by the time I rode it I was expecting too much

    you said you tested it (not lived with it) because of the hype and found (for you it wasn't what you wanted) no problem there,even your very little effort of an actual ride review was quite positive,
    I tested other bikes but I wouldn't dream of putting them down just because they weren't
    for me.
    I bought my 46 after 2 thorough tests and found it ideal for my needs,
    I also don't get this over complicated your on about,whats complicated about any of it
    its only a bike,maybe construction could be abit more complicated but thats certainly not reflected in the cost, infact like for like with other makes of similar spec if pretty cheap,

    as for the F1 connection come on you know as well as I it only gets mentioned because
    Jon was a former F1 suspension engineer at Benetton with M.Schumacher,there may be some relevence
    there maybe none but what it does confirm he is a good engineer, your in F1 (at what capacity I have no idea,chef for all I know) even you must agree even the lowly teams have good engineers.

    again I quote from you
    I think it's over-hyped, over-complicated and I don't rate the engineering as anything special. We just have different opinions that's all.

    yes we have different opinons but over hyped its been around 3 years and the Americans haven't even heard of it,over-complicated where, your in F1 should appear simple to you it does to me,most bikes are reletively simple IMHO,
    don't rate the engineering,whats wrong with it,everything looks well thought out to me,mud clearance,the biggripper idea is clever and functional,the seatpost clamp doesn't squeeze up the tube, nice touch,good access to all relevant pivot points for maintance,low standover height,well thought out cable and hose guides,full length seat tube,
    my only problem is the no bottle bosses but again nothings quite perfect.

    Your beef here seem's to have little to do with the bike but something else entirely.
    Last edited by 856er; 05-06-2006 at 07:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    1. Of course there is lots of marketing hype – but what mtb company doesn’t…? have you seem how much Specialised spend on convincing us their suspension is the best.? Ventana X5 (glorified Kona’s), RM ETSX (great bike IMO), Yeti 575 (now there is a noodle frame! But it is only meant for XC), Turner’s (glorified Specialised’s)… ridden them all… and all of them have hype as to why you should buy their bike… it’s called capitalism… welcome aboard…
    I agree with this to a point, but the Whyte 46 stands out head and shoulders as the king of hype in the UK. I really wouldn't mind if it could live up to it. For me it simply doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    2. Every magazine in the world uses riders not engineers to write their ‘reviews’. And obviously the technical detail on for example WHY a suspension goes up hills better is missing. Americans mags are the same as are the English and Australians and anybody else.
    Yes, so they should just tell us how the bikes ride and stop spending half the review talking rubbish about suspension design they know little about. It's painful for engineers to read!

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    3. Whyte does know something about suspension. His working in F1 backs that up.
    Probably right there, but F1 is a world apart from mtb. Very little relevance, but a good marketing angle nevertheless. Schumacher was going to win World Championships with or without the help of JW. In fact he has many times over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    4. If your Whyte 46 made noises it is the fault of the mechanics in the shop not the bikes fault
    Possibly, but the rear swing arm was creaking a fair bit. Worn bearings perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    5. If you thought it was high off the ground – get it with the Alpine link – I don’t know why the British have it like that but it is popular.
    I rode it as designed by "Schumacher's F1 suspension guru" and needed a ladder to climb on it. Strange for an F1 designer to go for a high ride height

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    6. yes the early 04 Whyte’s had a problem with paint and finish but not build quality. All version 1’s have problems no matter what company/product.
    The one I rode was an 04. Paint finish was terrible and the welding was not of the highest standard. I do hope it improved later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    7. you say the frame is flexy… compared to what?! It is a welded monocoque… to get the same stiffness in tubing the frame has to be very heavy… that is why they used and still use it in F1 and other high end racing (yes, I appreciate they mostly use dedicated carbon processes now – btw they never did use Easton tubing at any time) …. And if you can weld straighter than a robotic arm every bike company in the world would be knocking at your door… The Maverick fork…. The front hub has a thru axle. The fork is has two massive cross bars. If anyone says it is not stiff they must be comparing it to a World Cup Boxer. I ride with a club. We swap rides as you do - the Maverick is by far the stiffest fork in the XC set. When we get to a Fox 36 with a thru axle there is some comparison – but the 36 is another half pound or more. What fork in this category do you think is stiffer?!
    You're talking rubbish about the weight / stiffness ratios of monocoques v tubular frames in reference to bike frames. It's a very close call in this specific application and both can work fine. The 46 rides like you would expect for its low weight i.e a bit flexible. I suspect the swing-arm is the real culprit here as on most Marins. The slightest wear on those Quad-links and it becomes a noodle. How many swingarms have been replaced under warranty? I know of 2 personally. My Ventana X5 (with old fashioned tubes) is miles stiffer and weighs about a pound more.

    Robotic welding is far from perfect. Quality of welding depends on many things, not just how straight it is.

    Mav fork needs a thru hub to achieve ANY stiffness at all down at the wheel hub. Remember it's an inverted design. I thought it was quite flexible for a 6" travel fork. I've got an RS Pike on my own bike (with a thru axle) and it feels much stiffer and just as plush. The Fox 36 is miles stiffer than the Mav. Compared to other 4" forks it's probably similar. I can't see the point in the Mav design personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    At the end of the day the quad link suspension is inherently efficient via its wheel path (check it out on a CAD program) that is not to say it is the most efficient – that award would have to go to something like RM’s ETSX and similar – but it is good. You can have 4in rising rate or 6in linear at the flick of QR for the types of riding you are doing today – brilliant and versatile. Same goes with the fork.
    Lets not go there, unless you have some engineering design qualifications or experience. Then we can discuss it if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    Versatile. Light enough to race at 4in with closer geometry. Beefy enough to hit All Mountain style on 6in with relaxed geometry. What other bike comes close to this? This bike still sets the goal posts for AM bikes. It did when it won ‘Bike of the Year’ twice in a row and still does.
    Fair enough, not sure about the beefy part though. There are tons of bikes in this category now. It's even got it's own name - AM. Who gives a fcuk about "bike of the year"? It's about as relevant as "Car of the Year" or "Film of the Year". It's nice though if it makes you feel better about choosing it.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 856er
    Actually your not immune to it from your own comments.Quote,Having said all that it was on my test ride shortlist - perhaps by the time I rode it I was expecting too much

    you said you tested it (not lived with it) because of the hype and found (for you it wasn't what you wanted) no problem there,even your very little effort of an actual ride review was quite positive,
    I tested other bikes but I wouldn't dream of putting them down just because they weren't
    for me.
    I bought my 46 after 2 thorough tests and found it ideal for my needs,
    I also don't get this over complicated your on about,whats complicated about any of it
    its only a bike,maybe construction could be abit more complicated but thats certainly not reflected in the cost, infact like for like with other makes of similar spec if pretty cheap,

    as for the F1 connection come on you know as well as I it only gets mentioned because
    Jon was a former F1 suspension engineer at Benetton with M.Shumacher,there may be some relevence
    there maybe none but what it does confirm he is a good engineer, your in F1 (at what capacity I have no idea,chef for all I know) even you must agree even the lowly teams have good engineers.

    again I quote from you
    I think it's over-hyped, over-complicated and I don't rate the engineering as anything special. We just have different opinions that's all.

    yes we have different opinons but over hyped its been around 3 years and the Americans haven't even heard of it,over-complicated where, your in F1 should appear simple to you it does to me,most bikes are reletively simple IMHO,
    don't rate the engineering,whats wrong with it,everything looks well thought out to me,mud clearance,the biggripper idea is clever and functional,the seatpost clamp doesn't squeeze up the tube, nice touch,good access to all relevant pivot points for maintance,low standover height,well thought out cable and hose guides,full length seat tube,
    my only problem is the no bottle bosses but again nothings quite perfect.

    Your beef here seem's to have little to do with the bike but something else entirely.
    No, I just don't like the Whyte 46, that's all. Sorry, that's just how I feel about this bike and I thought I'd put my view across. You've said your bit too about how much you like it, so just let the OP make up his own mind. Don't worry about it.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Panda
    Over-hyped?! what expensive pushbike isn't...

    over-complicated?! suspension 5 pivot points ?! not at all unusual...

    welded monocoques are stiffer and stronger for their weight but expensive to produce... though Whyte is not the only builder using it... (layered carbon is better but no one of the majors in bike land is using it yet in production - The Australian track team had some a few years back)

    2 dimensional?! sit behind a sprinter in a road race watch his frame and tell me about 2 dimensions in a bike frame...

    marketing... it is obvious from both out posts that we have extensive experience with bikes... I put rear suspensions into a CAD program before making my decision for example... IMO Whyte has come up with a design that is more effective, more versatile than any current AM bike for what I want ie it has to race as well as just ride around. My friends have other capable bikes. None of them come close to a Whyte in versatility or effectiveness. 6in of suspension is a major advantage in technical trails. There is not a lot of options here in a light bike. As well as that, not too many bikes allow a 4in setting that changes the geometry as well
    You're talking about the engineering here as if you have some engineering qualifications to back it up. Is this true or are you just a keen enthusiast? There is a big difference.

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    Quote
    Possibly, but the rear swing arm was creaking a fair bit. Worn bearings perhaps?

    No,thats just an incorrectly adjusted biggripper,the bobbin will creak in the biggripper
    if not set correctly.


    Quote
    I rode it as designed by "Schumacher's F1 suspension guru" and needed a ladder to climb on it. Strange for an F1 designer to go for a high ride height

    You rode 04 model,05 and 06 have far lower top tubes,
    high b/b was intentional you read the marketing (its your big beef)and new this in advance,why test if this goes against your riding style.


    Quote
    The one I rode was an 04. Paint finish was terrible and the welding was not of the highest standard. I do hope it improved later.

    Very very much so,maybe you should take a proper look this time.



    Quote
    Robotic welding is far from perfect. Quality of welding depends on many things, not just how straight it is.

    It is on mine 06 model,used to work with aluminium welding/welders,very impressed.

    Quote
    Mav fork needs a thru hub to achieve ANY stiffness at all down at the wheel hub. Remember it's an inverted design. I thought it was quite flexible for a 6" travel fork. I've got an RS Pike on my own bike (with a thru axle) and it feels much stiffer and just as plush. The Fox 36 is miles stiffer than the Mav. Compared to other 4" forks it's probably similar. I can't see the point in the Mav design personally.

    Personal preference on forks.
    I like mine but can't really comment to much on others.





    Quote
    There are tons of bikes in this category now. It's even got it's own name - AM. Who gives a fcuk about "bike of the year"? It's about as relevant as "Car of the Year" or "Film of the Year". It's nice though if it makes you feel better about choosing it.

    You can't blame Whyte for this,
    if someone votes there bike bike of the year what do they do
    say sorry don't want it.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    No, I just don't like the Whyte 46, that's all. Sorry, that's just how I feel about this bike and I thought I'd put my view across. You've said your bit too about how much you like it, so just let the OP make up his own mind. Don't worry about it.
    Then I don't get it why go into all the marketing crap and long winded blah blah blah

    when all that was asked was a review of the bike (which I'd respect either way) and
    what its like to live with,

    you had a test ride and thats it with an 04 model 3 years ago,
    you've not owned or wanted one,
    but again I quote from you

    I'm sure it's a nice bike

    but you don't really know either way,you don't like the marketing the look of the engineering etc etc
    what can you possibly bring to this thread from a test ride of a 3 year old model when you have such inbread dislike of the whole Whyte setup,
    the bikes not for you simple no problem with that but the origional Q was what's it like as a LIGHT AM rig where have you addressed this Q
    apart from suggesting other bikes with a pound heavier s/arm or a different (heavier) fork
    things start to look like a heavy AM rig.

    And don't be sorry everyone's entitled to there own opinion and I have to respect yours,
    you don't like the 46 and thats fair enough but I think just a ride report would of been sufficent to get your views across without going off on one regarding personal views on marketing blah blah blah,and I also resent the view and I

    Quote
    ( many UK riders are gullible dorks)
    because your from the UK and could also be included in this quote.
    don't assume we all fall for marketing some of us do research and many test rides before parting with our hard earned cash.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 856er
    Then I don't get it why go into all the marketing crap and long winded blah blah blah

    when all that was asked was a review of the bike (which I'd respect either way) and
    what its like to live with,

    you had a test ride and thats it with an 04 model 3 years ago,
    you've not owned or wanted one,
    but again I quote from you

    I'm sure it's a nice bike

    but you don't really know either way,you don't like the marketing the look of the engineering etc etc
    what can you possibly bring to this thread from a test ride of a 3 year old model when you have such inbread dislike of the whole Whyte setup,
    the bikes not for you simple no problem with that but the origional Q was what's it like as a LIGHT AM rig where have you addressed this Q
    apart from suggesting other bikes with a pound heavier s/arm or a different (heavier) fork
    things start to look like a heavy AM rig.

    And don't be sorry everyone's entitled to there own opinion and I have to respect yours,
    you don't like the 46 and thats fair enough but I think just a ride report would of been sufficent to get your views across without going off on one regarding personal views on marketing blah blah blah,and I also resent the view and I

    Quote
    ( many UK riders are gullible dorks)
    because your from the UK and could also be included in this quote.
    don't assume we all fall for marketing some of us do research and many test rides before parting with our hard earned cash.
    I made a point about the marketing hype because you insisted on quoting all the BS in your first post. Sounded like you believed it word for word. You could have just given a ride report too as you did later.

    I test rode the bike less than 18 months ago, not 3 years ago and it was a late 04 model. Is the 07 model out now or something? It is May 06 right? I tested it for a weekend on my local trails and that was enough to confirm it wasn't the bike for me. Just to re-iterate for you - it felt too high, too flexible and the quality didn't warrant parting with £2700.

    So what I can bring to this thread is don't believe all the hype, go and try it for yourself.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I made a point about the marketing hype because you insisted on quoting all the BS in your first post. Sounded like you believed it word for word. You could have just given a ride report too as you did later.

    I test rode the bike less than 18 months ago, not 3 years ago and it was a late 04 model. Is the 07 model out now or something? It is May 06 right? I tested it for a weekend on my local trails and that was enough to confirm it wasn't the bike for me. Just to re-iterate for you - it felt too high, too flexible and the quality didn't warrant parting with £2700.

    So what I can bring to this thread is don't believe all the hype, go and try it for yourself.
    All I gave was info on tests and reviews (no links) no marketing BS (later gave a quad link info,some may find it interesting others like you think its BS,but who are we to believe,you? eh, why ), plus my own test/tests prior to and after ownership opinions,infact the only link was to ATB sales,think you would be best to re-read my first posting,I think you may be confusing me with someone else? only gave relevant info for someone interested in a certain bike,its always a good starting point prior to your first test ride,

    plus my opinion that importing would be too expensive and sizing is critical thus pointing out the folly of buying without trying,

    18 mths ago,so what it was an 04 model,things changed in 05 even the s/arm flex you mentioned was addressed,small but significant,then again some updates in 06 plus the option of the alpine link for all models,
    07 model where the hell did that come frombloody obvious I was refering to 3 model changes over the years,after cheap point scoring are we,
    maybe abit of research on the 3 years of subtle development wouldn't go amiss eh,

    don't believe the hype well yes thats all you can bring to the thread (but you can't blame Whyte for that,not to say there displeased with it but they didn't write it,the hype that is not there bike claims),also doesn't mean your right doesn't mean your wrong,
    then again maybe no one should believe ANY hype (and there is loads of that) regarding
    the Nomad,FSR's,Scott Genius,bikes with the DW linkage,etc etc etc:mad2: ,

    we all get it its not for you but that doesn't mean there's anything inherantly wrong with it,
    it does what it designed to do,obviously not designed to do what you want,
    it was to high for you but that was well documented from the start that it had a high b/b (yet even this has been addressed)and as you must of come across this is your research why did you even contemplate testing it ,you said I believed the hype but YOUR the one who new all the hype (Quote, Having said all that it was on my test ride shortlist - perhaps by the time I rode it I was expecting too much )
    because you said you were disappointed after your test as it didn't live upto what you had been led to expect,to me it just does what I want it to do,
    you have a problem with marketing and BS claims, you should start looking further afield
    and look into ALL the claims that are out there in mtb land.
    Last edited by 856er; 05-06-2006 at 06:00 PM.

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