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  1. #1
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    At what point dose Trail end and All Moutain begin

    Sitin' around pondering a new tire set up for spring during our first big snow storm of the year(12" to18"+) and waffling Between 2.3 or 2.1 up front.Got me thinking....

    If All Mountain is some were between XC and Free ride and Trail is some were between XC and All Mountain. At what point dose Trail end and All Mountain begin?

    You see my current setup is kind of a mullet if you will a 2.25 Ardent tubeless up front and a 2.1 aspen exp. (summer) on the rear on my TranceX w/ 140 Talas fork and works OK for my local New England trails.Both worn out now and driffty is a understatement!
    My new tire picks are down to WTB Bronson's 2.3/2.1 or 2.1/2.1 or Conti 2011 Mountain kings 2.2/2.2 Not a lot of reviews on the Bronson's and the king are not out yet.
    Any thoughts on either?

    Sorry for the Enigma and question in one post.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly
    Sitin' around pondering a new tire set up for spring during our first big snow storm of the year(12" to18"+) and waffling Between 2.3 or 2.1 up front.Got me thinking....

    If All Mountain is some were between XC and Free ride and Trail is some were between XC and All Mountain. At what point dose Trail end and All Mountain begin?

    You see my current setup is kind of a mullet if you will a 2.25 Ardent tubeless up front and a 2.1 aspen exp. (summer) on the rear on my TranceX w/ 140 Talas fork and works OK for my local New England trails.Both worn out now and driffty is a understatement!
    My new tire picks are down to WTB Bronson's 2.3/2.1 or 2.1/2.1 or Conti 2011 Mountain kings 2.2/2.2 Not a lot of reviews on the Bronson's and the king are not out yet.
    Any thoughts on either?

    Sorry for the Enigma and question in one post.
    Wherever you say it does. The borders are very blurry.
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  3. #3
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    Its a question that has been plaguing man for centuries. The great minds on this board have determined there is no answer and it up to each individual to determine his own path to an All Mountain ride.

  4. #4
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    Thats why these picture threads are so important, because of all the diversity in setups.

  5. #5
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    If you're running a 32mm fork you're most certainly trail bike. Also, 140mm of travel for the most part is considered trail...in my opinion.

    Go with the WTB for sure, Conti's are gonna slip n slide on everything.

  6. #6
    I got the velcros
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    Always had good luck with Contis and really bad luck with WTB (tires).

    As a blanket statement for not knowing what kind of conditions you ride in, a 2.35 or similar is pretty much the ideal setup for "all mountain" riding, whatever that actually means to you.

  7. #7
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    people who have 2.3 bronsons seem to love em. ive heard 2.2 tk's are a lesser quality rubber than the 2.4s but im not sure. as far as trail vs am my take is that trail is smoother single track with some rocks and roots and am is more tech throughout. where i ride i would say it is a mix of trail and am. gettin snow here on the cape too and im bummed, want to ride so bad!

  8. #8
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    That's a good post. I think AM begins the moment you are dropping anything over 3ft to flat or jumping where your wheels are flying over 3ft vertical distance on a trail with roots over 1 inch high and more than 30 percent uneven rock surface. Trail riding would be the same conditions as above but with drops to flat or vertical distance on jumps of less than 3ft. at least that's what I think

  9. #9
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    Most of the local trails in the lower CT.are a full mix of everything. fireroad,tight single track, rocks,roots,hard pack,loam,pines, gravel,logs,granite spines,steeps, climbs, drops everything except sugar sand and goat heads.Typically in multi use land holds of a couple hundred acres. So not a lot of 20'+ gap jumps,endless tech rides with huge vistas or epic all day rides.(we do have Dioblo tho) Plus I do ride in upstate NY in the Adirondacks, far more epic days when lighter is better but traction is key.
    So as far as tires I've a set of Minion2.35 dhf /high roller for the the down hill and park stuff The ardent/aspen set. Some Kenda nev's Stick e dtc combo(read slow) and SB 8s and WTB Exiwolf mostly for the hard tail.
    I'm thinking the Bronsons 2.1 F&R might just fit the bill .Just on the fence if I should keep the mullet set up (allmountain up front and XC in the back) for my local trails.I may just have to wait it out till more review pile up.

    Knee2 I'm really thinking the three foot mark hits the nail square on the head for the Trail to AM quandary.
    Last edited by Dragonfly; 12-26-2010 at 07:24 PM.

  10. #10
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    What's All Mountain, here you go. A 6" bike is the sweet spot. But it's not all about the bike. I have a 4" cross country bike that I can and have ridden on what would be considered All Mountain trails. Back in the day when I was racing I could make it up the hill much faster than most (not all) All Mountain riders. On the way down I had to pick my lines carefully and sometimes take alternate lines when things get chunky. On my 6" bike it's the opposite slower going up and much faster on the way down.
    Many people like 7" bikes and bigger. They give up slightly more on the up's and can hit bigger stuff on the way down.

    So my opinion is that it's not the bike so much and the way you want to ride the trail.

    Here's a pic of myself on what I would call an All Mountain trail on my 4" bike the second pic is of me doing a drop on my 6" bike that I wouldn't think of doing on my 4" bike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails At what point dose Trail end and All Moutain begin-untitled.jpg  

    At what point dose Trail end and All Moutain begin-untitled1.jpg  

    Last edited by surfndav; 12-26-2010 at 11:20 PM.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  11. #11
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    AM starts the minute you finish slamming your Mountain Dew Red Bull cocktail while listening to the soundtrack to Lone Wolf McQuade.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Wherever you say it does. The borders are very blurry.
    Yep, I have to agree with Shiggy on this one.
    Those of us that have been riding for over a decade, used to call "All Mountain" bikes "Trail Bikes".
    I'm still not really happy with the invention of the term "All Mountain".
    We were taking heavy duty XC bikes and beefing them up with heavier duty rims and tires years ago, and we called them trail bikes. Then the industry came along and said "Oooooo, that's getting popular, lets copy that and change the name, so it sounds like we invented it".

    OK, maybe that's a little sarcastic, even for me, but the point is basically true.

    Eric.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  13. #13
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    Buy a U-turn Lyrik, and start winding it down, mm by mm while riding your favorite trail. At the point when you feel like pulling on tight clothes and chugging a latte - that's trail.

  14. #14
    Maaaaan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Buy a U-turn Lyrik, and start winding it down, mm by mm while riding your favorite trail. At the point when you feel like pulling on tight clothes and chugging a latte - that's trail.
    Sounds more like a rodie on a mountain bike.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericmopar
    Sounds more like a rodie on a mountain bike.
    Precisely.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Buy a U-turn Lyrik, and start winding it down, mm by mm while riding your favorite trail. At the point when you feel like pulling on tight clothes and chugging a latte - that's trail.
    Personally, I am trying to push things as far as I can, WITHOUT having to wear anything but my tight cycling apparel... and concerning the latte, the only way to go is a stiff espresso.

  17. #17
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    In regards to trail vs AM.... the best thing to do is not get pigeon holed into the categories the manufacturers have come up with. Find a bike that works for you and matches the terrain you ride. Lets face it, most people end up with more than one bike anyway.

  18. #18
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    Trail is included in *ALL* mountain... all mountain starts at XC and includes everything up to DH. It's an all mountain bike not a riding style, how many times do we have to go over this.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18
    AM starts the minute you finish slamming your Mountain Dew Red Bull cocktail while listening to the soundtrack to Lone Wolf McQuade.
    yes. stay thirsty my friends

  20. #20
    "No Clue Crew"
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    I take my All Mountain with cream and sugar.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    people who have 2.3 bronsons seem to love em. ive heard 2.2 tk's are a lesser quality rubber than the 2.4s but im not sure. as far as trail vs am my take is that trail is smoother single track with some rocks and roots and am is more tech throughout. where i ride i would say it is a mix of trail and am. gettin snow here on the cape too and im bummed, want to ride so bad!
    The UST Trail King 2.2 does not use the Black Chili compound. All other 26" versions do use the better rubber.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    Trail is included in *ALL* mountain... all mountain starts at XC and includes everything up to DH. It's an all mountain bike not a riding style, how many times do we have to go over this.
    Jack of all trades doesnt have quite the ring as ALL MOUNTAIN. But yeah, I agree AM is a type of bike. Not a style of riding.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericmopar
    Yep, I have to agree with Shiggy on this one.
    Those of us that have been riding for over a decade, used to call "All Mountain" bikes "Trail Bikes".
    I'm still not really happy with the invention of the term "All Mountain".
    We were taking heavy duty XC bikes and beefing them up with heavier duty rims and tires years ago, and we called them trail bikes. Then the industry came along and said "Oooooo, that's getting popular, lets copy that and change the name, so it sounds like we invented it".

    OK, maybe that's a little sarcastic, even for me, but the point is basically true.

    Eric.
    And for those of us that have been riding for more than 20 years, we called them "mountain bikes."
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  24. #24
    Stiff yet compliant
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    When you put down the Fresca and pick up a Mountain Dew.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    And for those of us that have been riding for more than 20 years, we called them "mountain bikes."
    I liked it when they were called ATB's (All-Terrain Bicycles). It made me feel powerful.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grave9
    I take my All Mountain with cream and sugar.
    I still take mine black with a shot of Dew.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails At what point dose Trail end and All Moutain begin-new-015.jpg  


  27. #27
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    I agree it's definitely a type of bike afterall we see hard tail frames on all terrain even dh. I think it's all to do with angles and travel I would class a 68-69 deg head angle and 140-150mm travel as a trail bike and a 66-67 deg head angle and 160-180mm travel as all-mountain although some company's are starting to slacken head angles on all types of frames now.

  28. #28
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    In GT speak:
    Sanction: cross country
    Force: trail
    Sanction: all mountain
    Thanks for seconding my 3ft vertical drop mark

  29. #29
    Perpetual Hack
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    The UST Trail King 2.2 does not use the Black Chili compound. All other 26" versions do use the better rubber.
    One for my Calendar...
    I can't believe it but Shiggy got it wrong on this one.
    Must be too much Titus on the brain.
    RQ/TK 2.2 UST used to be NON Black-Chili as Shiggy says, but they have changed things up a bit, the 2.2 UST is now available in Black-Chili

    * Rubber Queen 2.2: 3 plies / total 180 tpi / Black Chili Compound
    * Rubber Queen 2.2: 3 plies / total 84 tpi
    * Rubber Queen UST: 3 plies / total 330 tpi / Black Chili Compound

    http://www.conti-online.com/generato..._queen_en.html

    I'm on the fence between the 2.2 UST RQ and the new WTB Bronson for my trail tires ( 819's )

    michael

  30. #30
    wuss
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly

    If All Mountain is some were between XC and Free ride and Trail is some were between XC and All Mountain. At what point dose Trail end and All Mountain begin?
    Depends on the marketing department.

  31. #31
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    Sorry, in GT Speak I meant:

    Sensor: XC
    Force: Trail
    Sanction: AM

    BTW, Performance has Sanctions ($2200 bike) on sale for $1100 and Forces ($1800 bike) for $1400. How is that possible?
    My thought is that most people will not really utilize a Sanction-too burly- but most would ride a Force, therefore less demand for the Sanction. That makes the 6inch Trail category the most versatile...and most encompassing.

  32. #32
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    Hello! You're forgetting about over-mountain. Generally, I agree with Shiggy that its a really blurry line, at best.

    For purposes of comparing bikes, you can draw lines with companies that have bigger product lines. For example:

    1. Giant - Anthem (XC/Race); Trance (Trail); Reign and Reign 0 (All Mountain); Faith (Free Ride); Glory (DH)

    2. Yeti - ASR (XC/Race); ASR 5 (Trail); 575 and ASR 7 (All Mountain)

    3. Trek - Top Fuel (XC/Race); Fuel EX (Trail); Remedy (All Mountain); Scratch (Freeride)

    If you are talking about what constitutes an all mountain trail or tire, that line is really a matter of choice. Easy to define on the extremes, but not in the middle.

  33. #33
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    Most of the bigger companies definitely define there lines down to the 5 (currant)genres. And the middle ground is certainly blurred to the point of personal preference. I like most here,upgrade our rides to the extreme of the intended design in earthier direction.Most to the point we just need(want) to add another bike to the stable.
    Well I'm up to three and if I tried to add one more I'll be the one in the barn. So for now, I'll be adding another set of tires to the stack and bring this one back to trail.

  34. #34
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    I like to think of all mountain as a mountain bike. Marketing is a great thing in the US. I guess my 90's all mountain bike was my GT Zaskar i did xc races and dh races in the same day back before there was 800 types of bikes that did the same thing. There is just Mountain bikes, no real lines just depends on what YOU want to CALL yourself. and what part of biking is more important to you.

  35. #35
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    Surfndave how much vert is in that drop? (sick btw)

  36. #36
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    Whatever it's called, use your brakes less.

  37. #37
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav
    So my opinion is that it's not the bike so much and the way you want to ride the trail.
    This^^^^^^^
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  38. #38
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    It starts after the fifth can of four loko.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kneetowaist
    Surfndave how much vert is in that drop? (sick btw)
    5' or 6', The further to the right you are the bigger the drop, but the landing is smooth as butter, very easy. BTW I call my 575 the (bike I'm riding in the pic) a 6" bike, I have a 36 Float 160 up front so it averages out at about 6". Close enough for me.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel
    One for my Calendar...
    I can't believe it but Shiggy got it wrong on this one.
    Must be too much Titus on the brain.
    RQ/TK 2.2 UST used to be NON Black-Chili as Shiggy says, but they have changed things up a bit, the 2.2 UST is now available in Black-Chili

    * Rubber Queen 2.2: 3 plies / total 180 tpi / Black Chili Compound
    * Rubber Queen 2.2: 3 plies / total 84 tpi
    * Rubber Queen UST: 3 plies / total 330 tpi / Black Chili Compound

    http://www.conti-online.com/generato..._queen_en.html

    I'm on the fence between the 2.2 UST RQ and the new WTB Bronson for my trail tires ( 819's )

    michael
    The new version of the UST 2.2 is not yet available.

    The 84 tpi version is not imported to the US.
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  41. #41
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    Hehehe....I'll add another monkey-wrench. The line between them also moves depending on where you are. For those of us in areas where we have big mountains, our "trail" is AM or FR in some other locations.
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bing!
    It starts after the fifth can of four loko.
    x2 No one has ever said it better.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kneetowaist
    Sorry, in GT Speak I meant:

    Sensor: XC
    Force: Trail
    Sanction: AM

    BTW, Performance has Sanctions ($2200 bike) on sale for $1100 and Forces ($1800 bike) for $1400. How is that possible?
    My thought is that most people will not really utilize a Sanction-too burly- but most would ride a Force, therefore less demand for the Sanction. That makes the 6inch Trail category the most versatile...and most encompassing.
    I bought one of the last 2010 Sanction 1.0s left in the small size last July just as they were starting their initial end-of-the-summer clearances. They were either sold out or at low inventory in the other sizes in the 1.0 based on what people were posting in the gt forum in the early fall. And you're right, the 1.0 is pretty burly but that's good for Appalachian rock here in PA. Without going to look at their site, I'm guessing you're talking about 2010 Sanction 2.0s and/or 3.0s?

    I'm thinking you're correct in your thinking that more people are interested in the Force as the Sanction's burly "look" probably scares them off a little which is funny because the 2.0 and 3.0 don't feel nearly as burly as the 1.0 and I can scoot that up the hills just fine with the Hammerschmidt, even at 34 lbs.

    From my own experience bombing down some rock garden descents on the 1.0 I'd say anyone looking for a deal right now on a more serious AM would get a pretty good deal at $1100 with the Sanction 2 or 3 vs. the Force which is a perfectly good rig in its own right.

  44. #44
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    I think Trail and AM are really blurry or even one in the same. I ride my Trance all over the mountain. Up, down, and over stuff I should and shouldn't (supposedly). I crash, I succeed, and sometimes I hike. Sometimes I get looks for taking my bike down stuff that the bike isn't "made up to do." Who says? Hell, I have seen people do stuff in bikes with no suspension and v-brakes that would make a lot of 8 inch travel people piss themselves. Lesser bike = pick better lines. More bike = screw lines, just go. Isn't that the real difference?

  45. #45
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    In over generalization, would it be considered as XC if it's ridden in a more leisurely pace and avoid jumps while it's AM when one's riding aggresively and jumps/drops wherever opportunity arises?

  46. #46
    Big Gulps, Alright!
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    I think the question becomes....who cares? Ride your bike and call it whatever you want.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer
    In over generalization, would it be considered as XC if it's ridden in a more leisurely pace and avoid jumps while it's AM when one's riding aggresively and jumps/drops wherever opportunity arises?
    Yes, that would be considered an over generalization.

    Just ride as you wish and do not worry about what to call it.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav
    5' or 6', The further to the right you are the bigger the drop, but the landing is smooth as butter, very easy. .

    The "PIT"?

    If so I've hit that same drop on my 575 as well. I'm so glad to be AM
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails At what point dose Trail end and All Moutain begin-untitled1.jpg  


  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    And for those of us that have been riding for more than 20 years, we called them "mountain bikes."
    Exactly. When I stopped riding years ago, there were basically 2 types of riding: XC and DH.

    After taking many years off of the sport, I come back more confused as ever. The terminology that I am trying to keep up with for the last few months is overwhelming.

  50. #50
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    trail....wow that was sweet ride...
    all mountain...wow, I almost got killed out there today....

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