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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueturtle
    Hands down the new Intense Tracer VP is the best 6" bike built.

    It takes the word "versatility" to a new level in mtn biking.
    How About the word "Durability"?

    How often will you need to rebuild those little VPP links the Tracer design puts so much side load on?

  2. #102
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    "little" ?

    After seeing a buddys frame- id have to say that id guess it will be once every year to 2years for bearings of this size. These are huge bearings for a VPP design

    --so much so- that id be more worried about the frame holding up (ovalizing issues) in the bearing area vs. the actual bearings issues.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaymachine
    I am liking my Titus El Guapo. Climbs great, has 160mm of travel, and can be bulit well under 30lbs (mine is at 31). Read the tech stuff on the Titus web site, it sold me on the Horst/FSR design. Then look for the most well put together Horst/FSR bike available and you will be back at the Titus web site. All the El Guapo reviews on MTBR are true IMO, great climber, great descender, great looking. Rear travel is not adjustable, but it is not a problem when the suspension works so well. I don't even need to use the lockout while standing on a climb. El Guapo means "The Best" in spanish... not really.
    That might be the most cringe-worthy, T-cell dropping post of 2008. The last one went to the Chumba sponsored rider that shilled a review that sounded pretty much like that.

    I'm not denying what you're saying, but first thing I will call you out on is that "Horst/FSR" is not a "frame design". It's a pivot location that can be contained within a variety of designs. Amazing how people don't see the rest of a suspension when there's a Horst Link there. Apparently, the shock goes directly to that pivot, with no seatstays or chainstays, because now it's a suspension design.

    Next, if you think Titus is "teh best", you might have to get out of the vacuum in which you live. There are bike makers all over the world higher end than Titus. Nicolai comes to mind. Go to Europe and you'll see Titus isn't even on the map, and in its place are dozens of high end brands.

    The world is a big place; open your eyes.

  4. #104
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    The real nuts and bolts of the Tracer i feel is the great geometry.

    16.75" chainstay and the adjustable rear (5.5" or 6" ) gives this a much more XC-ability in all sm-xl sizes.

    The titus El-guapo for instance is just going to be a bunch more sluggish(for xc) with the 17.35 rear end ==especially in the sm-large sizes.

    FOR an xl sized bike however--the front to rear proportionality is probably better(more balanced) approaching the 17" chainstay length (even for XC).

    Its not really talked about much with respect to geometry---but BIKE companies that use the exact chainstay length for their xs bikes---as their XL bikes are creating two completely different handling bikes. OF course they do it because its cheaper to mass produce 1 rear end---versus proportionate sizes for xs-xl.

    This is why the TRacer VPP geom is so sweet because it can be setup to be a fairly nimble more XC oriented 5.5"travel bike.......or via the use of a Talas 36style fork.....transform into a great climbing 6"travel Allmountain bruiser.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueturtle
    "little" ?

    After seeing a buddys frame- id have to say that id guess it will be once every year to 2years for bearings of this size. These are huge bearings for a VPP design

    --so much so- that id be more worried about the frame holding up (ovalizing issues) in the bearing area vs. the actual bearings issues.
    True Intense does use some great bearings. Also true the main issue is ovalization (is that a word?) of the frame and the swing links.

    My buddys have all had problems with the links. From creaking to ovalizing to tail wag it is difficult to get such a complex system to be problem free and lateraly stiff. One of my freinds was rebuilding his Tracer once or twice per month and still had tons of lateral play. He had links warratied by Intense and cracked them on the very next ride (this guy can ride). I am intrested to see how well the '09 Tracers hold up, but I will stick with a design that has had the bugs worked out for decades... Horst.

    O.K. I am done hijacking the thread now. So Jabba how goes the search? Have we talked you out of that Special**ed?

  6. #106
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    You cant really compare your buddys 10 year old designed Tracer with anything from the past 2 years. theres been a real evolution in the VPP of OUTLAND days if you havent been around in a while.

    I would even venture to say that the comparitively Costco-esque Giants Maestro design is sturdier than the HOrst LInk on the TITUS.

    With that said- the geometry hasnt quite kept pace with suspension (even lately)
    =with the RP23 and newer platform rear shocks--the concept of a nimble XC handling-6inch all mountain bike is just taking hold.....................and UNFORTUNATELY theres quite a few companies (even shi-shi ones) that continue to slap on 17.25"plus rear ends on small/med/ frames (great if you live at the top of a shuttle run and your only ride is a 15mi 40+mph descent to work each day) BUT for someone like the original poster......that may want a versitile bike that can be nimble on a tight singletrack--climb like a billygoat--and descend with aplomb without running 2.85" 1400gram tires.....................id say the 09 TRACER is one of the few 6"bikes out there that has jumped into a league of its own with its design.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    That might be the most cringe-worthy, T-cell dropping post of 2008. The last one went to the Chumba sponsored rider that shilled a review that sounded pretty much like that.

    I'm not denying what you're saying, but first thing I will call you out on is that "Horst/FSR" is not a "frame design". It's a pivot location that can be contained within a variety of designs. Amazing how people don't see the rest of a suspension when there's a Horst Link there. Apparently, the shock goes directly to that pivot, with no seatstays or chainstays, because now it's a suspension design.

    Next, if you think Titus is "teh best", you might have to get out of the vacuum in which you live. There are bike makers all over the world higher end than Titus. Nicolai comes to mind. Go to Europe and you'll see Titus isn't even on the map, and in its place are dozens of high end brands.

    The world is a big place; open your eyes.
    Good job at missing the tounge in cheek of my "The Best" comment Jerk chicken, that is the wording of the thread starter not mine.

    I am well aware what the Horst link is and have built hundreds of bikes with this design, the first being the not so wonderful Horst Leitner AMP bikes. But to fit my paragraph into a quick reply I did not want to explain the entire evolution of the suspension bike from the time Lawill started putting F-1 car suspension designs to use in the bike world up to the present. Saying Horst/FSR is an easy way to explain a suspension concept that most people on this site understand. No matter where you put the shock it does not Biopace(go ahead and point out the inaccuracy of this word) and remains active under pedal force and braking.

    Finally I do get out into the world and "open my eyes", that is why I don't have 12,000+ posts on this site.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueturtle
    You cant really compare your buddys 10 year old designed Tracer with anything from the past 2 years. theres been a real evolution in the VPP of OUTLAND days if you havent been around in a while.

    I would even venture to say that the comparitively Costco-esque Giants Maestro design is sturdier than the HOrst LInk on the TITUS.

    With that said- the geometry hasnt quite kept pace with suspension (even lately)
    =with the RP23 and newer platform rear shocks--the concept of a nimble XC handling-6inch all mountain bike is just taking hold.....................and UNFORTUNATELY theres quite a few companies (even shi-shi ones) that continue to slap on 17.25"plus rear ends on small/med/ frames (great if you live at the top of a shuttle run and your only ride is a 15mi 40+mph descent to work each day) BUT for someone like the original poster......that may want a versitile bike that can be nimble on a tight singletrack--climb like a billygoat--and descend with aplomb without running 2.85" 1400gram tires.....................id say the 09 TRACER is one of the few 6"bikes out there that has jumped into a league of its own with its design.
    Dude when did I say 10 year old Tracer? In the past 2 years most of what Intense has done is wrap more technology and money around the same two weak links in the design and there are still problems when you actually freeride. Maybe the 09 Tracer is in a XC long travel league of its own but this is the all mountain fourum. Maybe the thread starter wants an XC handling 6 inch bike, I do not. Though I have had no problem riding every XC trail in my neighborhood, but we have lots of rocks and mountains here not a smooth rollercoaster in sight. As for shuttling that is for monkeys and astronauts. I will take the reliability and stiffness of the 4 bar design, I just don't wan't a bike that wags after a season of riding and have to sell it every year. Our opinions obviously differ on design, but I too like me some RP23. Over and out.

  9. #109
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    Good job at missing the tounge in cheek of my "The Best" comment Jerk chicken, that is the wording of the thread starter not mine.

    I am well aware what the Horst link is and have built hundreds of bikes with this design, the first being the not so wonderful Horst Leitner AMP bikes. But to fit my paragraph into a quick reply I did not want to explain the entire evolution of the suspension bike from the time Lawill started putting F-1 car suspension designs to use in the bike world up to the present. Saying Horst/FSR is an easy way to explain a suspension concept that most people on this site understand. No matter where you put the shock it does not Biopace(go ahead and point out the inaccuracy of this word) and remains active under pedal force and braking.

    Finally I do get out into the world and "open my eyes", that is why I don't have 12,000+ posts on this site.
    runawaymachine is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote

    Well, if you play the "tongue in cheek" game, you have to be good at it.

    And I can assure you, I do get out in the world. Many here will be willing to place bets that my post count is likely proportional to how much I do get out and explore, along with photographic evidence, on and off the bike. I love the "you're on the internet, so you must never ride!" comments. It never fails to actually fall on its face in failure.

    Now please explain the FSR/Horst concept. Do all designs that contain it, not "biopace", and do they remain active under all conditions? I was going to let you fall on your face once again, or have other experts now call you out, but two significant designs, the GT LTS, and the Giant NRS both contained Horst Links. I had an LTS and the "biopacing" as you called it throwing me back to the era of Eddie Bauer, was horrendous. Additionally, the suspension did not stay active under power, as mentioned with respect to the bobbing, and under braking, the suspension actually locked out in the top of the travel. It was an absolutely horrendous design, but groundbreaking for the era. It had a Horst Link.

    The Giant NRS contained a Horst Link as well, and it had some unique characteristics designed in, such as how the suspension was actually designed to top out at a certain pedaling cadence, or resonance frequency, to simulate a hardtail to a degree. Braking wasn't a nice point of the design, either.

    Next, you have several years of Jamis Dakars, all reported to not function like "Horst Links" when braking. Then a highly influential designer and one of the originators of the Horst Link revealed that under analysis, most HL implementations don't work, especially as they move the pivot closer and closer to the axle.

    Those are just a few significant examples, and a suspension design is quite a lot more complex than "where you put the shock". I can tell you, as many other riders do, tehy will get a horst link to bob or biopace. If you think you can't, then you're living in Imagination Land with the Woodland Creatures.

    Even Specialized's own studies in the late 90's, when they were taking out multi-page ads were directed at taking advantage of the consumers that can be duped easily. What they did was they had some lab "independently test" the so-called "FSR" against other designs, then they graphed it. Such specious categories as "active braking", "pedaling", and a host of others. I welcome quantification, though they didn't qualify much. Now what they did was they posted all of those graphs showing how "FSR" was CLEARLY better, and people got taken in. What the easily duped didn't realize was that Specialized altered the scales of the charts depending on the % difference, which was sometimes in the low single digits, but visually, it looked massive because they stretched the graph out. People thumbing through saw it, became sold on the Horst Link, and now are the Horst Link zealots we know today. That is only one example. The other was how they actually made people believe that if the rear dropout pivot is on the seatstay, then the design can no longer be called a "Four Bar", when actually, the same number of frame/structural/suspension members still exist. Only a small part of the whole was changed in the pivot position, yet the people basically advertising for Spec for free by fanboying 15 year old technology would go on message boards and start telling people how there actually are no structural members between the wheel and the shock once that pivot was changed. And then there's the idiocy of "faux bar" as a term because there are four bars, just one pivot position has changed, so then people started figuring out there wasn't a big deal in the ride, since several companies kept doing their thing and word started getting out of how good their designs rode, so companies like Specialized and Ellsworth tried to get people to think that those structural members didn't exist, which is admirable, because it actually worked. People apparently think there's nothing there and these designs are now the Rocky RM suspensions of old, when there's much more to it and other spacial arrangements of the pivots were found over 15 years of development to make more of a difference than inserting a horst link wherever it was convenient in that vaguely defined space of "slightly in front and slightly below the dropout". Then from them came the "linkage driven single pivot", especially since the axle paths of many of these non-horst link four bars were show to not take advantage of these supposed instant advantages the horst link pivot can add.

    I can go on and on, but hey, why bother when you're volunteering for Specialized's and Ellsworth's advertising street team?

  10. #110
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    No the LTS, NRS, and Dakar are not Horst link bikes. Sorry but the pivot locations are the factors that keep them from performing well.

    I like my El Guapo for a 6 inch travel all mountain bike that is plenty capable of XC, how about you Jerk chicken? You still haven't given us your pick.

    If you want to go off on a tangent then start a new thread and I will join you there. You could call it "The imaginary land of Jerk chicken". BTW I knew you were the type of person that would buy an LTS.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaymachine
    No the LTS, NRS, and Dakar are not Horst link bikes. Sorry but the pivot locations are the factors that keep them from performing well.

    I like my El Guapo for a 6 inch travel all mountain bike that is plenty capable of XC, how about you Jerk chicken? You still haven't given us your pick.

    If you want to go off on a tangent then start a new thread and I will join you there. You could call it "The imaginary land of Jerk chicken". BTW I knew you were the type of person that would buy an LTS.
    Why would I give a pick when I don't have one? Or should I do exactly what you did and post my own bike to validate the purchase?

    And the LTS wasn't a Horst Link? Wow, someone let Jim Busby know that, considering cross references exists between all the patents and his designs for GT.

    Someone tell Giant to call Specialized to get their refund for licensing the FSR pivot, which allowed them to bring the NRS to the US market. Many here will remember the MBA article on the NRS team frame that wasn't available here, then the next month's issue speaking about how there are now legal proceedings between both companies, since resolved.

    The Jamis Dakars of the early 00's used Horst Links until they got in hot water and removed them altogether. Perhaps in 2005 or around there.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueturtle
    I would even venture to say that the comparitively Costco-esque Giants Maestro design is sturdier than the HOrst LInk on the TITUS.
    What? This is just wrong. The best, sturdiest, least maintenance required, rear linkage system I've every seen has been on my 7 year old Titus RX 100x. Absolutely tight as the day I bought it and still amazingly efficient and active. I've never touched the bearings.

    A well-executed HL/four bar design (Titus El Guapo, Norco Fluid LT, Knolly Delirium T) is still (15 years later) a thing of beauty imo. Yes, you can get a poorly executed one as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by runawaymachine
    Dude when did I say 10 year old Tracer?
    "One of my freinds was rebuilding his Tracer once or twice per month and still had tons of lateral play."
    Because right here you mentioned your buddy's Tracer needing constant bearing/lower link rebuilds(erroneously, I assume since other than a few dozen '09 Tracer VP's running around out there, there are no Tracers except 6-10 year old FSR Tracers). Perhaps he had a 5.5 or 6.6 or Uzzi VPX?

    Anyway the v.2 VPP is a new-for-'09 redesign that incorporates different, stonger bearings and grease ports for easy maintenance. Also a redesign (shortening/strengthening) of the links and shortening of the seat stays to lower the leverage ratio, reduce flex, and reduce pedal kickback. My experience on the Tracer VP tells me they've been pretty successful on these last two issues. Long term durability is yet to be determined, obviously.

    It is a really versatile design. The Tracer VP is light, climbs like crazy, and is a pretty capable downhiller as well. Having said that, and while I like the VPP suspension design (especially the '09 version), there's still some things I think a well-executed HL/Four Bar design does a bit better (and worse).

    There's no perfect design yet.... although the Turner DW-link is pretty dang good.
    Last edited by KRob; 11-20-2008 at 01:52 PM.
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  13. #113
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    I'll give you my pick... KNOLLY DELIRIUM T! I got out on it today for the second time and man, sweet sweet sweet! Mine is 41 pounds cause of the dh wheels, and i can still climb crazy stuff... and it descends better than my bullit ever did! (and yes, i know its a little over six inches of travel...)

  14. #114
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    this thread is still alive??

    mojo mojo

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaymachine
    No the LTS, NRS, and Dakar are not Horst link bikes..
    You should quit while you are behind.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaymachine
    No the LTS, NRS, and Dakar are not Horst link bikes.
    Tell that to Specialized lawyers.

    Quote Originally Posted by runawaymachine
    Sorry but the pivot locations are the factors that keep them from performing well.
    All three bike mentioned worked just fine.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by airs0ft3r
    Realistically, it could very well be the GT Force Carbon... I ride an I-Drive (2006) and the system is just amazing.
    GT Force's suck. Go with a Diamondback Mission 3, Killer bike and value

  18. #118
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    ^ ^ ^ This thread was/is pretty interesting...

  19. #119
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    I've seen a couple places selling new 2008 Intense 6.6 frames with shock in the $600 - $700 range lately. No that's not a typo. Google "Intense 6.6 for sale".

    Sadly I'm about 1-2 months away from making any frame purchase or I'd grab one and just keep it till I can afford the rest of the parts.

  20. #120
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    Pivot Firebird or possibly the *NEW* 201? Turder DW Link RFX
    .
    .
    .
    End Thread!

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED5
    *NEW* 201? Turder DW Link RFX
    .
    .
    .
    End Thread!
    TURDER
    Hope that was just a typo.!

  22. #122
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    actually the new dw rfx looks pretty amazing. WAY WAY expensive for most but if you can afford it, why not?

    I think the original post mentioned £1400 so he wouldn't even get a frame for that.

    If I had a budget of £1400 I would buy a Spech pitch pro, regardless of the validity of the arguments for and against the properties of horst link pivots (and I am not going to argue for either side of the fence), the spech bikes pedal really well and handle bumps really well and the geometry is pretty sorted and the pitch is fantastic value too.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nsynk
    TURDER
    Hope that was just a typo.!
    NOPE!

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidNeiles
    GT Force's suck. Go with a Diamondback Mission 3, Killer bike and value
    Even though it's useless quoting a 2 month thread, why do you think Force's suck? They're killer value as well, incredible bikes...

  25. #125
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    GT and Mongoose have a very "Twins" oriented relationship. GT is the Arnold portion and Mongoose is the leftover, or DeVito portion. Freedrive (mongoose) is based off GT's IDrive. Force's are a kicka$$ and very capable 6" bike.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx_599
    this thread is still alive??
    I was wondering the same thing about this forum.

  27. #127
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    Did we find the answer to the question?

  28. #128
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    I had to think about this for awhile, but then I realized that the answer was right under me.

    It's the bike I ride!
    It's whatever bike, that is built and setup correctly, for your weight, riding style, and local terrain.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    Did we find the answer to the question?
    We know it is not Ibis Mojo, but we have not decided what it is.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorfish
    I've seen a couple places selling new 2008 Intense 6.6 frames with shock in the $600 - $700 range lately. No that's not a typo. Google "Intense 6.6 for sale".
    I did that and I saw one place advertising $600 off on an Intense 6.6 frame but I didn't see any selling them for $600. Did I miss something, or did you misread?
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    then you're living in Imagination Land with the Woodland Creatures.

    I checked the trail reviews and couldn't find this place. How's the riding?
    No moss...

  32. #132
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    Oh!

    I think the 2005 Specialized Enduro S-Works model is the best 6" all mountian bike.

    But obviously I am heavily biased as that is the bike I ride.

    I think that all these questions of what is the best this and that are a bit stupid, they are all pretty good, each has it's weaknesses and each has it's strengths. As long as you are riding a bike designed for the correct style of riding you will be doing you will do great!
    Mint condition Marzocchi 66RC for sale (170mm) pm to make an offer!

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  33. #133
    Huh?
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    These questions are fun, and opens a lot of discussion.

  34. #134
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    Mojo man. Hands down best AM bike i have ever ridden. test road yesterday: it feels very "crisp and responsive" for a 6" bike. the best money can buy.

  35. #135
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    I have read in several places in this thread (and on MTBR in general), people saying "X is the best bike I've ever ridden", yet no one volunteers what they've tried. For all we know, they could have been on an Ibex or a Sports Authority Iron Horse.

  36. #136
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    Cannondale Prophet, question answered.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I have read in several places in this thread (and on MTBR in general), people saying "X is the best bike I've ever ridden", yet no one volunteers what they've tried. For all we know, they could have been on an Ibex or a Sports Authority Iron Horse.

    If you ask someone this question the answer most always is "my bike" (where my bike can be any number of bikes).

  38. #138
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    The one with the guy having the most fun

  39. #139
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    depending on your riding style - the Commencal Meta's or the Trek Remedy are 2 different but incredible bikes. You'd be a fool to not seriously consider one of these
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  40. #140
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    IMHO The best is a Nicolai AM but £(censored)k built up.

    But for £1400 try felt or cube say, one of the less over hyped brands, you'll get far more for your money but a frame perhaps less worthy of upgrade.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by starre
    TNC great post! i'm on a 29er sultan with 4" of travel and it is a competent ride even when the terrain becomes more rocky and technical. it requires me though to focus and pick my lines carefully through the rocky ledgy stuff and really move and position my body rearward on tougher, sketchier downhill stuff. that said, i just briefly tried a nomad the other day for the first time and what struck me is how much less work it was to go down ledgy rocky stuff. i was really impressed. it think it's because the geometry of AM bikes with such a slack head angle simply sets up the bike and rider better for descents. you kinda feel your riding a motorcycle cruiser rather than fighting the downhill hunched over an XC bike. i wonder what a shorter travel bike with 67 degree HA would be like?
    Now theres a gap in the market. For most of my trail/am riding a bike with 4" travel would be perfect, but nearly every 4" bike out there is a full on XC rig now(69/70deg HA) and not strong enough for full on AM, only ones that aren't are 4x bikes, and those are too small for me at my height (6ft3in) to ride all day. I ended up with a old gen Heckler with a 150mm fork.
    Will some manufacturer please make this bike?

  42. #142
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    To the OP - for the money your talking in the UK, basic spec Orange 5, Commencal Meta and Specialized Pitch are around your budget. These bikes are brilliant UK bikes and 5" travel will get you a lot places and into a whole heap of trouble if you go looking for it. I run a 140mm travel old gen Heckler - more than enough bike for most people.

  43. #143
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    I'd say Ventana Terremoto.

    I am totally biased.
    And high.
    (from riding my bike).

  44. #144
    Its got what plants crave
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    I want to try a Remedy and Nomad. Never ridden either, but both have a solid reputation. I lean more towards SC but the Remedy is pretty pimp. I'm wondering how much the Remedy can handle considering it's sitting right at 30 pounds which seems light. Anybody do any light freeride, or small dirt jumping on it?

  45. #145
    Riiiiiide...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I want to try a Remedy and Nomad. Never ridden either, but both have a solid reputation. I lean more towards SC but the Remedy is pretty pimp. I'm wondering how much the Remedy can handle considering it's sitting right at 30 pounds which seems light. Anybody do any light freeride, or small dirt jumping on it?
    +1 on that question.. how much can that frame handle? Lotta travel, light... what DO remedy riders ride?

  46. #146
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    I have had a Rocky Mountain Slayer since 05 and it's been a champ. I'd just be sure you want a "all-mountain"/freeride bike before you buy one. The benefits that you get going downhill definately affect you going uphill, so that's the one drawback. I'm now looking at getting a 5 inch bike cause I have moved past the need for a 6 inch travel bike and would rather climb more efficiently... Goodluck in your search but I'd definately look into the slayer, they are relatively affordable for that category and they are handmade.

  47. #147
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    Stop listening to the amatuers who post more then they ride.

    Best?

    1. Versus Blitz

    2. Intense Tracer VP

    3. Foes FXR

    thread/

  48. #148
    PDB
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    I've ridden the Remedy on some very tech extended rides and been extremely happy with it. One of my riding buddies has one and it's definitely built to handle real riding. no need to baby it.
    On a side note - i saw a few people racing Remedy's at the MSC DH series this year, expert and semi -pro classes with very good results.
    Want to go green? Want to be low impact?
    Buy 2nd Hand Products!

  49. #149
    Alien Surf Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    I did that and I saw one place advertising $600 off on an Intense 6.6 frame but I didn't see any selling them for $600. Did I miss something, or did you misread?
    I dunno, man. I don't control the interwebs. I do remember it wasn't a bike shop, but some all-outdoor shop like REI. If it was a med in red I would have snagged it.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rider
    Stop listening to the amatuers who post more then they ride.
    Poser.

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