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  1. #1
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    Tantrum Cycles Ride Review - "Missing Link Does the Impossible"

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ull-suspension

    For the past year I have been helping part time with the launch of Tantrum Cycles (social media, web design, rider input).

    I wanted to give my initial ride impressions from the point of view of a non-professional tester.

    I have been fortunate enough to own multiple bikes from multiple brands since I started mountain biking (Yeti SB, SC, Diamondback, Trek, Pivot, Cannondale).

    Over the last year I have been lucky enough to swing my leg over both the Meltdown and Outburst multiple times.

    I was instantly blown away with the overall ride. I rode the 125mm travel Outburst down a rough trail and right away the suspension felt bottomless. I couldn't believe how well this short travel bike could decend down the trail. Bump absorption was ridiculously good and like nothing I had ever ridden before.

    Even more impressive was the climbing prowess of both bikes. I was making it up sections on my local loop in personal best and still felt like I had a ton of gas in the tank when I made it to the top. Even more impressive was the ability for me to clear sections I had never even been close to. These were sections I had tried multiple times on other bikes but cleared first go on the Outburst.

    I can't say enough how impressed I was with the ride quality and overall balance of both bikes. Don't take my opinion as biased either, I decided to help out with the company After my ride time on the bikes. When you believe in a product this much you can't help but want to get involved.

    Currently we are at 72% of our Kickstarter goal (in only one week). If you want to grab one of these bikes at a steal (frame or complete) I suggest you go out now and do so.
    Last edited by cefrye197; 11-11-2016 at 11:37 AM.

  2. #2
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    I havent ridden one of these but it looks very promising - I hope Tantrum success.

    my take...Tantrum will sell more of these if they kept the color ways simple and the graphics toned down . just my opinion of course...again, I want the little guys to succeed...good luck.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledude View Post
    the color ways simple and the graphics toned down
    Agreed.

  4. #4
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    Im not big on these flat colors and retro looks. Gimmy something bright and loud! The more colors the better! If im going to pay that kind of money for a bike, I want it to scream for attention!!! IT better looks awesome..................JUST MY OPINION OF COURSE....
    Lets Drain the Swamp together................

  5. #5
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    I want battleship gray with orange highlights
    [like another new bike i have seen]

  6. #6
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    Very interesting to read your review cefrye. Backed by the good reviews from Pinkbike and Vitalmtb I see no reason to doubt your words even you are biased. It's all what I have been looking for in my next bike. And I really look forward to swing my own legs over one when the spring comes.

    I'm amazed so many are so concerned about colors and graphics when this is all about a potential game changer when it comes to suspension design. A whole new dimension have been entered.
    And that in a sub 30lbs carbonfree package.

    What is your thoughts about shock upgrade? I would guess many riders would like to get into 1x12 drivetrain. And Eagle, the only option at the moment are costly. And since this linkage are made to work as intended with less expensive and advanced shocks I would guess the most sensible way to keep the costs down I'd to stay with the O2 RLX.

    A side by side test between X-fusion and DVO speced bikes would be good..



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  7. #7
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    The brightness of colors or lack thereof on a bike frame doesn't make it ride any better or worse.

  8. #8
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    Just my opinion...

    Someone call the 90's!!

    I think they want their design back o_0

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  9. #9
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    The original graphics and frame colors were recently redone for the production models. If you haven't had a chance go out to the website to take a look.

    We understand that aesthetics are vitally important, but that wasn't the first concern. This is something will continue to improve upon, but first was to create a design that does something no design has done thus far.

    As I mentioned I am not a professional tester, but this bikes rides like no bike I have ridden before. If you get a chance to demo one I can guarantee you will be blown away.

  10. #10
    Aye
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    I rode this bike yesterday with Brian and rode it along the lines of dirt bike. Throw it into corners, try and maintain corner speed and squirting out. This bike rails corners and then when it comes to stamping on the pedals on the exits, I didn’t feel the usual softened bob on back end of the bike on every downward pedal stroke. On the straighter level sections, I would speed up and literally feel the rear suspension firm up. It was like there was a hidden pump somewhere, which sensed when you pushed down on the pedals and would add some air to the shock and it would extend! The same was true when it came to climbing, the rear end would harden up, the shock would extend and you could feel the bike go forward and not bob and go forward. The bike has a neutral feeling, it rails corners with confidence and did not feeling top heavy. Also it wouldn’t get out of shape when hitting roots in corners at speed. Normally I would expect a bike to feel “skittery” in situations like that, but this bike felt planted, both front and rear. This one of the best f*cking bikes I have ever ridden. It’s in the “one bike for pretty much everything” category.

  11. #11
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    First, thanks, Brian for making the trip south. I not only enjoyed riding the bike, but meeting you.

    Now, folks, about this bike. I rode the 29er. Yes, since these prototypes were designed for normal humans and not hulking mutants, it was too small for me, but only small enough to make me adjust my riding style for the first 300 yards of trail to sort out how to deal with being on too small a bike, and still trying to get it up to speed and around turns without hurting myself or the bike. If anything, the added awkwardness of the small frame/fit made the rest of my observations about the bike that much more impressive. If you're reading this, you've likely watched the videos Brian has put up, and read what he and other people have said about the bike. I don't want to write the same thing over and over again, or try to draw comparisons to stuff that just can't compare to what I experienced so I'll say this: The bike did exactly what the brochure said it does. I'll leave the advertising to other people, but I'll relate this little bit.

    I am very, very familiar with the trail we rode on (lock 4) and so I hand picked a three mile route to put the bike to the test, including what they somewhat optimistically call "the rock garden" there. It's really just rocky enough to tick you off, but not really a rock garden. It's a solid 60 yard or so section of trail that you can't quite just plow through because you might get a flat or beat a rim out, so you have to work a little. On a hard tail (my hardtail is also SS) the real problem isn't putting the bike where you want it and getting power down, it's keeping traction over the small square edges and leaf covered rocks. On a FS bike, it's being able to stand up and put enough body english on the bike to get it where you want it without killing yourself fighting the suspension while climbing this shallow rock covered grade. The Outburst was - I'll just say what I said to Brian after riding through there - it was like cheating. I had all the traction from riding my FS bike through there, and none of the fighting the suspension. Standing up and shifting the bike around, the bike pedaled like my hardtail, but I had traction for days.

    In short, if there's any doubt in your mind, and you can make it to somewhere Brian will be with these bikes, get your butt out there and get a leg over one of these things. And seriously, for those of you who fancy yourselves suspension experts, or amateur engineers, and are trying to figure out how this suspension works and get Brian to give you numbers to "prove what he's talking about" - get over it. You guys more than anyone else, I would encourage to ride this bike, and look at it, and think about this linkage in person. There's a reason he keeps telling you what he does when you ask those questions.

    Just in case anyone is skeptical - the bike was equipped with an X-fusion shock and a DVO fork. The bike was sagged to 30 or 35% (Brian put calipers on it to check) and I twice bottomed out the 140mm fork on drops (the fork may have been a little soft, but it wasn't far off being right) and did not bottom out the bike at all, nor did I ever get the sense that it wasn't THE most plush bike I've ever ridden. Yet, it still pedaled as well - better? - than the best bikes I've ridden. So if you're wondering why the bike is spec'd with one of the simplest shocks made, with very little adjustment, etc - it's because the linkage is so good, it doesn't need anything else.

    Go ride this bike. Go buy one. Buy two. Believe.

  12. #12
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    On the colors, that is why all bike companies offer bikes in all colors, so they can please everyone all the time....and at no additional cost.

    Colors are of course preference and if yours are strong that's okay, but commenting on colors as the "issue" for a kickstarter that is about the suspension design and whether the ride delivers, seems to miss the point entirely.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Now, folks, about this bike. I rode the 29er.
    Thanks for the demo report. I'll keep my eye on these bikes once the first batch get out into the wild.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  14. #14
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    Some high praise for Missing Link from RC, cool. Sounds like something to keep on the radar for the next bike.

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-r...sing-link.html




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  15. #15
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    the more and more I look at this and see reviews and then look at ALL other production suspension....this guy Brian is gonna be a bike zillionaire if he sells his own line, or licenses the design to a production maker.

    no doubt in my mind whatsoever...

    in the category of 'lots of suspension' but 'must not be a pig when on the rivet'
    (enduro) he has it nailed.

  16. #16
    Aye
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    Thanks for reminding me about the fit of the "Medium." I am 6'2" and usually ride a large and though to begin with i felt a little cramped on the bike, i very soon forgot and got used to this size of frame, more so that i have with other bikes.

  17. #17
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    I want one of these soooooooooo bad. But I'd have to sell my Jekyll frame. And I don't want to do that unless I have a guarantee the Kickstarter will succeed. By which time it may be too late to sell my Jekyll.

    HEEEEEEELP!
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  18. #18
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    Kickstarter is 89% funded 19 days into a 60 day cycle

    you think it won't be funded ? it's gonna be funded.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Kickstarter is 89% funded 19 days into a 60 day cycle

    you think it won't be funded ? it's gonna be funded.
    This is no slam on Brian, but a Kickstarter getting funded and you getting a bike are two different things. One can happen without the other. These projects do fail.

    I get the sense that this one isn't crazy risky like some of the failures I've heard about, but I do think it's wise be aware you are not simply buying online from a warehouse. You are giving someone money so they can try and build production versions of these bikes for the first time.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    This is no slam on Brian, but a Kickstarter getting funded and you getting a bike are two different things. One can happen without the other. These projects do fail.

    I get the sense that this one isn't crazy risky like some of the failures I've heard about, but I do think it's wise be aware you are not simply buying online from a warehouse. You are giving someone money so they can try and build production versions of these bikes for the first time.
    This is not Brian's first rodeo producing product in the bike industry. He is already an insider. I am confident I'd be getting a bike, kickstarter or not.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    This is not Brian's first rodeo producing product in the bike industry. He is already an insider. I am confident I'd be getting a bike, kickstarter or not.
    I think being confident in this situation is quite reasonable.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  22. #22
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    Posted the Jekyll on Pinkbike and local classifieds. $1900 for a carbon frame in excellent shape with a Pike included, hope this sucker sells before I leave at the end of the week to go back to school!!! (Hint: if anyone wants it...........)
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  23. #23
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    Crosspost from PB:

    I met up with Brian in Nashville over the weekend and put a couple miles on one of the demo bikes at Lock 4 park.

    The setup:
    Previous gen frame, size M (shorter reach and longer chainstay than production geo)
    160mm rear travel
    XFusion shock
    160mm DVO Diamond fork
    Maxxis Tires (HR2 and DHR perhaps?)
    Magura Trail (4 pot up front)
    Dropper of some sort
    Relatively short stem (maybe 35mm?)
    Handlebars maybe 760mm wide

    Setup at about 30% sag front and rear. Left the damping alone. I'm about 5'10", 150lbs.

    Trails ran through a green area situated on a peninsula that juts out into the Cumberland River, so while there wasn't much extended climbing or descending, there were some decently steep grades to test out the bike's capabilities. A scattering of roots and rocks throughout and a couple drops here and there with the largest being maybe 18-24".

    The best way to sum up the ride was that it was completely drama free. After studying the linkage online and before the ride in the parking lot, I tried my best to turn my brain off and just ride. And this bike helps you do that. You don't have to think about the changing shock leverage. The rear suspension just seems to respond with exactly what is needed in any situation. There are no geometry chips, or switches to flip or doodads to push and I never felt wanting for anything. Here I am riding a 160mm "Enduro" bike on trails more suited to a XC bike (there was even a guy flying around on a CX bike) and I didn't once feel out of place.

    The only thing I can truly complain about is the less-than-trendy geometry of the frame I was on. Luckily, Brian has listened to feedback and responded by lengthening the reach by 35mm and shortening the chainstays by 10mm if I'm remembering correctly for the production frames. Both would be welcome changes in my eyes. Rear traction was never an issue even though I felt on top of the front wheel but I did feel a bit cramped and didn't get enough seat time to fully adjust my technique and body position to the leverage differences.

    So, I'm trying to simplify life a bit and move to a 1 bike quiver. I have 60k acres of green space (Monte Sano: lots of up and down trial, steep climbs and descents and so, so many rocks, but most locals ride Trail or XC bikes and take it very easy through the rough stuff) across the street from my apt, lots of stellar trail riding that is close enough for a day or weekend trip (Coldwater Mtn, Racoon Mtn, Pisgah, Dupont, etc.) and even shuttle serviced DH at Windrock. I need something that I won't hate to be pedaling on for an all day ride, that can descend quickly and competently as well as take some serious abuse, and most importantly be fun to ride in every situation. This is a little easier because of my lighter build but still not an easy task for any bike.

    I've looked at adjustable travel forks, adjustable geometry, trick dampers with multiple settings all while trying to plan my next move and never settled on anything, but I think this ride made up my mind. It was a bit like taking a sports car for a test drive around the block a couple times. You give it a little gas, maybe take an on ramp or two, a quick 90deg surface street corner and then park it and hand the keys back. You walk away wishing to take it on a twisty back road or to the track, but alas, not until you sign the dotted line. Yes, I like the bike on paper. Yes, the bike behaved exactly as advertised. Yes, I think it will be my next bike. I'm going to trust that the competency and poise I felt on the short downhill bursts will translate onto bigger terrain. I'm going to believe that the traction and efficiency I felt on these short climbs will carry me up and over the top of something larger. And I have no reason not to. I can't wait for Brian to hand me the keys back.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I think being confident in this situation is quite reasonable.
    You are correct of course. On all counts. The success of a Kickstarter (or not) is not always a good predictor of success. It certainly can be an important step along the way. The rapid success of the Tantrum kickstarter just gives me a better chance of succeeding. And even though the goal was set a little low, that is not the "goal". The goal is continued sales after the kickstarter is over, with additional models for the next year.

    I didn't start this to stand still and I didn't start this to fail. This really is the culmination of so much in my life. I've been preparing for it and preparing for this bike company and kickstarter launch to make sure that when I pulled the trigger, I knew where I was pointed. Granted, still a bit of sawed off shotgun effect, but generally at one big target.

    While 127.0.0.1 calls me an insider, I always feel a bit like an outside insider. I don't live in a cool mtb local. My career and history has more cars than bikes. Not by much, but still. But I've worked hard to learn what it takes, from manufacturing techniques, contacts and sourcing, 3d cold forging, tube manipulation, testing, and yes, even a tiny bit of marketing.

    I have forged contacts and support in the industry around the world. Not that everyone is a fan of my work (just read the forums), but those that know what I can do, know what I can do. There are a LOT of people in the industry watching to see what I do with this. Am I bluffing? Will I succeed? Tank?

    There is plenty of on-going interest and discussion for licensing, etc. But I did want to try something different with this. Different as in non-exclusive. I can have my brand and still make it available to many other brands. Starting my brand is intended to force the issue, but is not meant to end there. I'm not done developing this concept or the next one....See, I'm not done, yet. I have a lot more to offer the bike industry. No, not the industry, bike RIDERS. I have more to offer bike riders and my company allows me to do so as I see fit.

    Everyone will be getting their bike.

    thanks for the support.

    Brian

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    This is no slam on Brian, but a Kickstarter getting funded and you getting a bike are two different things. One can happen without the other. These projects do fail.

    I get the sense that this one isn't crazy risky like some of the failures I've heard about, but I do think it's wise be aware you are not simply buying online from a warehouse. You are giving someone money so they can try and build production versions of these bikes for the first time.
    Hi Vik, one other point I want to be clear about. These bikes that are being demoed are 3rd gen pre-prod samples. While they have not been made in quantity, they are pretty well sorted in terms of "production ready"

    b

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bzflag View Post
    Crosspost from PB:

    I met up with Brian in Nashville over the weekend and put a couple miles on one of the demo bikes at Lock 4 park.

    The setup:
    Previous gen frame, size M (shorter reach and longer chainstay than production geo)
    160mm rear travel
    XFusion shock
    160mm DVO Diamond fork
    Maxxis Tires (HR2 and DHR perhaps?)
    Magura Trail (4 pot up front)
    Dropper of some sort
    Relatively short stem (maybe 35mm?)
    Handlebars maybe 760mm wide

    Setup at about 30% sag front and rear. Left the damping alone. I'm about 5'10", 150lbs.

    Trails ran through a green area situated on a peninsula that juts out into the Cumberland River, so while there wasn't much extended climbing or descending, there were some decently steep grades to test out the bike's capabilities. A scattering of roots and rocks throughout and a couple drops here and there with the largest being maybe 18-24".

    The best way to sum up the ride was that it was completely drama free. After studying the linkage online and before the ride in the parking lot, I tried my best to turn my brain off and just ride. And this bike helps you do that. You don't have to think about the changing shock leverage. The rear suspension just seems to respond with exactly what is needed in any situation. There are no geometry chips, or switches to flip or doodads to push and I never felt wanting for anything. Here I am riding a 160mm "Enduro" bike on trails more suited to a XC bike (there was even a guy flying around on a CX bike) and I didn't once feel out of place.

    The only thing I can truly complain about is the less-than-trendy geometry of the frame I was on. Luckily, Brian has listened to feedback and responded by lengthening the reach by 35mm and shortening the chainstays by 10mm if I'm remembering correctly for the production frames. Both would be welcome changes in my eyes. Rear traction was never an issue even though I felt on top of the front wheel but I did feel a bit cramped and didn't get enough seat time to fully adjust my technique and body position to the leverage differences.

    So, I'm trying to simplify life a bit and move to a 1 bike quiver. I have 60k acres of green space (Monte Sano: lots of up and down trial, steep climbs and descents and so, so many rocks, but most locals ride Trail or XC bikes and take it very easy through the rough stuff) across the street from my apt, lots of stellar trail riding that is close enough for a day or weekend trip (Coldwater Mtn, Racoon Mtn, Pisgah, Dupont, etc.) and even shuttle serviced DH at Windrock. I need something that I won't hate to be pedaling on for an all day ride, that can descend quickly and competently as well as take some serious abuse, and most importantly be fun to ride in every situation. This is a little easier because of my lighter build but still not an easy task for any bike.

    I've looked at adjustable travel forks, adjustable geometry, trick dampers with multiple settings all while trying to plan my next move and never settled on anything, but I think this ride made up my mind. It was a bit like taking a sports car for a test drive around the block a couple times. You give it a little gas, maybe take an on ramp or two, a quick 90deg surface street corner and then park it and hand the keys back. You walk away wishing to take it on a twisty back road or to the track, but alas, not until you sign the dotted line. Yes, I like the bike on paper. Yes, the bike behaved exactly as advertised. Yes, I think it will be my next bike. I'm going to trust that the competency and poise I felt on the short downhill bursts will translate onto bigger terrain. I'm going to believe that the traction and efficiency I felt on these short climbs will carry me up and over the top of something larger. And I have no reason not to. I can't wait for Brian to hand me the keys back.
    I'm gonna have to stop complaining about engineers writing poorly.

    I can't wait to hand you the keys back.

    cheers,

    b

  27. #27
    WillWorkForTrail
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I have a lot more to offer the bike industry. No, not the industry, bike RIDERS. I have more to offer bike riders and my company allows me to do so as I see fit.

    Brian
    And if I could sum up the impression I got of Brian as we talked after our ride, it would pretty much be that this is the kind of guy he is. After talking, there's no doubt that if you're in on this kickstarter, you'll get what you paid for. Actually, given the prices, you're likely to get more than you paid for. But this has been thought through, checked out, poked, and prodded from every angle. Brian isn't going to come up short on this.

  28. #28
    Aye
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    Hear hear....

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    This is quite interesting. I am a mtb noob and just have a hardtail.
    I am going to buy a FS early next year and my research narrowed down to YT capra or Jeffsy. Now this bike discussion showed up.
    Should I try this bike or keep my YT option? I'd like your experts opinion on what may be better option for a noob like me.

  30. #30
    Aye
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetorange View Post
    This is quite interesting. I am a mtb noob and just have a hardtail.
    I am going to buy a FS early next year and my research narrowed down to YT capra or Jeffsy. Now this bike discussion showed up.
    Should I try this bike or keep my YT option? I'd like your experts opinion on what may be better option for a noob like me.
    Try the FS option, but only ride it after you have tried a Tantrum. Brian may or may not agree with me, but at least that way you can appreciate the difference which the rear suspension reacts when you peddle. (i.e.. Hard tail - Tantrum - FS).

  31. #31
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    Brian- another PM sent.
    OG Ripley v2
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  32. #32
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    The way Bryan writes I'm starting to wish this is more about the creation of a cool new brand than just a cool new innovative suspension design.

  33. #33
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    Absolutely right. And this ingenious design really deserves its own brand!

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by inverted180 View Post
    The way Bryan writes I'm starting to wish this is more about the creation of a cool new brand than just a cool new innovative suspension design.
    I don't think he's been very secretive about this. He is launching a bike company, and it's products will be based on this design and evolutions of this design. Tantrum bikes won't just be a kickstarter phenomenon.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    the more and more I look at this and see reviews and then look at ALL other production suspension....this guy Brian is gonna be a bike zillionaire if he sells his own line, or licenses the design to a production maker.

    no doubt in my mind whatsoever...

    in the category of 'lots of suspension' but 'must not be a pig when on the rivet'
    (enduro) he has it nailed.
    I almost forgot about this one.

    "on the rivet"

    Classic

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetorange View Post
    This is quite interesting. I am a mtb noob and just have a hardtail.
    I am going to buy a FS early next year and my research narrowed down to YT capra or Jeffsy. Now this bike discussion showed up.
    Should I try this bike or keep my YT option? I'd like your experts opinion on what may be better option for a noob like me.
    Hi Sweet,

    Here's what I really think. Why spend money on obsolete technology. The prices I'm offering are pretty good, and you will be getting into full suspension bikes at EXACTLY the right time. You won't have to suffer like the rest of us did.

    cheers,

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I don't think he's been very secretive about this. He is launching a bike company, and it's products will be based on this design and evolutions of this design. Tantrum bikes won't just be a kickstarter phenomenon.
    Exactly. This doesn't stop here and neither does Tantrum. I'm tired of waiting for the industry to catch up. Not waiting, hitting the gas and not looking back. I have alot of cool stuff in the pipeline.

    b

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    Suddenly I imagine a gravity bike that can actually pedal to the top.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eicca View Post
    Suddenly I imagine a gravity bike that can actually pedal to the top.
    Exactly. I have just one of the read the "best of 2017" mountain bike reviews and i see the comments about "improved peddling efficiency" and i think, "erm, yeah, try a Tantrum."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eicca View Post
    Suddenly I imagine a gravity bike that can actually pedal to the top.
    I just gave it a quick bashing, but here is my first take on the 160 mm 29er

    It's better. It climbs better. It climbs better as a 160 mm bike vs a 125 mm bike.

    Why?? More geo change. No loss in pedaling efficiency, since those characteristics are the same. But now, it has more suspension travel in sag to come out of when climbing, resulting in a more pronounced change in climbing geometry.

    So it's better. It weighs the same (maybe 10 grams for the longer shock). Descends MUCH better due to the monster truck effect of 160 mm of 29er wheel. It's like a steam roller.

    AND it climbs better.!!?!?!?! What??? next on the list, a 180-? travel 27.5. That one will take more work, but......IT WILL CLIMB EVEN BETTER.

    Active geometry...............

  41. #41
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    So the Outburst will or can be delivered with 160mm travel?


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    Just replying to keep up to date with this thread.

    Love the project. Don't like the face graphic on the head-tube. Doesn't look classy.

    The split-section down-tube, has that been done before or is it a new idea? I've never seen it but I don't know much about how frames are made.

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    Will it fit a coil shock??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Just replying to keep up to date with this thread.

    Love the project. Don't like the face graphic on the head-tube. Doesn't look classy.

    The split-section down-tube, has that been done before or is it a new idea? I've never seen it but I don't know much about how frames are made.
    Hello Mr pig,

    Interesting that a smiling pig doesn't like a face on the ht, hmmm, I digress.

    logos, like all things are a work in progress and easy to change. Classy? Really not my goal. Classy, in the "appearance" sense....to me always smacked of pretention.

    Tantrum and the face are in honor of family life, which for better and/or worse has been an inextricable part of my lifetime of failures and successes. And who is immune?

    The downtube is not ideal treatment. However, properly engineered, it has been succsessful in the past (with my own magic link design) and currently with a lot of Giant models.

    It's more about engineering the part properly to take and distribute the load.

    cheers,

    Brian

    I do value classy in the engineering sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by eicca View Post
    Will it fit a coil shock??
    I have not attempted to fit a coil shock. The main reasons are weight and the fact that the LR curve is optimised for a rising rate air spring, so wouldn't be progressive enough for a coil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    So the Outburst will or can be delivered with 160mm travel?


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    Hi Gunnar,

    Will and can be. I've really opened a can of worms with the modular design. Between dropouts, rockers, shocks and shock mounts, there are myriad configurations. All of them good.

    Am I offering too many options or is it smart utilization of production to have more models available?

    I'm choosing the latter.

    The 180 mm 27.5 will likely require shock, shock mount, rocker, Missing Link and Driven Link as well as dropouts. But I can use the same fr tri , cs and ss.

    And it will both climb and descend better. Wild, wacky stuff.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi Gunnar,

    Will and can be. I've really opened a can of worms with the modular design. Between dropouts, rockers, shocks and shock mounts, there are myriad configurations. All of them good.

    Am I offering too many options or is it smart utilization of production to have more models available?

    I'm choosing the latter.

    The 180 mm 27.5 will likely require shock, shock mount, rocker, Missing Link and Driven Link as well as dropouts. But I can use the same fr tri , cs and ss.

    And it will both climb and descend better. Wild, wacky stuff.

    If a 27,5 - 180mm climbs even better then the 160mm - 29" / 27+ without any other drawback then a tiny weight gain.

    First thought that comes to my mind is Who needs the 125mm option??

    Who would prefere less of any if there is no significant benefit in weight?

    First I cheered since this means I can get both 160 travel And 29" Then the next "worm" teases with 20mm more travel and even greater spectrum of performance. Hmmmmm....

    And then I'm back thinking 29" front / 27+ rear configuration, but with 160mm travel all over....

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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    logos, like all things are a work in progress and easy to change. Classy? Really not my goal. Classy, in the "appearance" sense....to me always smacked of pretension.
    I think the 'face' of the bike is important. It's not something I'd thought a lot about, then I bought a Commencal Meta which has a horrible head-tube. It has no badge, the name is wrapped around the bottom where it looks like an afterthought and it is asymmetrical. It's fugly! It's so annoying I want to reroute the cables and out a proper badge on it.

    Tantrum Cycles Ride Review - &quot;Missing Link Does the Impossible&quot;-002-2-.jpg

    If the badge is bland but inoffensive I don't think it hurts at all but a bad face can be off-putting.

    That's cool that the two-part down-tube is an established and proven method. I was just worried that the bike might be undermined by experimental processes that have nothing to do with the new suspension. Years ago Commencal had a run of cracked frames due to faulty manufacturing. It only effected a relatively small batch of bikes and they sorted it out but I'm certain it cost them sales. For years you were seeing forum comments advising people to avoid Commencal bikes because the frames cracked, long after the actual problem was ancient history.

    Your suspension is potentially so game-changing that I'd hate to see anything slow down its progress. I want people to be talking about how fantastic it is without, any distractions from the rest of the bike. I'd play it safe and conservative with the rest of the frame, let the suspension do all the talking. Even if you do have other radical ideas you'd like to incorporate you could keep them up your sleeve for the next model.

    I noticed you've kept the cables outside of the stays, like it ;0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I just gave it a quick bashing, but here is my first take on the 160 mm 29er

    It's better. It climbs better. It climbs better as a 160 mm bike vs a 125 mm bike.

    Why?? More geo change. No loss in pedaling efficiency, since those characteristics are the same. But now, it has more suspension travel in sag to come out of when climbing, resulting in a more pronounced change in climbing geometry.

    So it's better. It weighs the same (maybe 10 grams for the longer shock). Descends MUCH better due to the monster truck effect of 160 mm of 29er wheel. It's like a steam roller.

    AND it climbs better.!!?!?!?! What??? next on the list, a 180-? travel 27.5. That one will take more work, but......IT WILL CLIMB EVEN BETTER.

    Active geometry...............
    Am I correct in assuming that I could run 26+ on the 180 travel 27.5? I'm currently running 26+ on my 13 Intense Uzzi with 180 f/r and I love it. But if I could have the same thing with better pedaling efficiency, that would be awesome! I'll take one in raw. Also, this may have already been asked, but, where are u making the frames? Here in the US, or overseas?
    13 Intense Uzzi
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    Here ya go pig, nothing like a little sharpie love to spruce things up a bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Here ya go pig, nothing like a little sharpie love to spruce things up a bit

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    Not bad! A definite improvement ;0) I was thinking more 'Kermit the frog' though, the colour is spot on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    If a 27,5 - 180mm climbs even better then the 160mm - 29" / 27+ without any other drawback then a tiny weight gain.

    First thought that comes to my mind is Who needs the 125mm option??

    Who would prefere less of any if there is no significant benefit in weight?

    First I cheered since this means I can get both 160 travel And 29" Then the next "worm" teases with 20mm more travel and even greater spectrum of performance. Hmmmmm....

    And then I'm back thinking 29" front / 27+ rear configuration, but with 160mm travel all over....

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    Crazy to think about, isn't it? I think the overall weight gain would be close to nil. I want this bike so much that I am considering offering it as a later delivery Kickstarter reward, probably at a slightly higher price, because it will need new Missing Link and driven link as well as rockers and dropouts, shock and shock mount.

    It's not something I can make out of the existing parts matrix.

    Who needs 125 mm version?? Certainly the overall package could be built up lighter, with a much lighter fork and wheels. Even at that, I'm thinking something weird, like a 100 mm fork with a 160 mm rear travel for pure XC racing.

    Why? You don't need the travel in front for XC, but the extra travel in the rear means extra steep for climbing and extra slack for descending. hmmmmm. Carbon fiber, 23 lbs or so.....

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I think the 'face' of the bike is important. It's not something I'd thought a lot about, then I bought a Commencal Meta which has a horrible head-tube. It has no badge, the name is wrapped around the bottom where it looks like an afterthought and it is asymmetrical. It's fugly! It's so annoying I want to reroute the cables and out a proper badge on it.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	002 (2).JPG 
Views:	114 
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ID:	1108525

    If the badge is bland but inoffensive I don't think it hurts at all but a bad face can be off-putting.

    That's cool that the two-part down-tube is an established and proven method. I was just worried that the bike might be undermined by experimental processes that have nothing to do with the new suspension. Years ago Commencal had a run of cracked frames due to faulty manufacturing. It only effected a relatively small batch of bikes and they sorted it out but I'm certain it cost them sales. For years you were seeing forum comments advising people to avoid Commencal bikes because the frames cracked, long after the actual problem was ancient history.

    Your suspension is potentially so game-changing that I'd hate to see anything slow down its progress. I want people to be talking about how fantastic it is without, any distractions from the rest of the bike. I'd play it safe and conservative with the rest of the frame, let the suspension do all the talking. Even if you do have other radical ideas you'd like to incorporate you could keep them up your sleeve for the next model.

    I noticed you've kept the cables outside of the stays, like it ;0)
    Ok. I agree. That is a little weird, some alien robot or........

    As for the DT, etc, every new method of construction has its learning curve. the idea is that the engineer involved has sufficient experience and acumen to identify where it can go wrong.

    My first involvement with this required the inner walls of the "split" to be perfectly parallel and accurately spaced. All of the samples and test mules were CNC. But the first production bikes were forged. Forging requires a draft angle. If the surface is critical, you leave extra material and do a final machining operation.

    The factory failed to take this into account, the first production bikes were "wiggly" and it took a bit of looking to figure it out.

    Things do happen. I remember a small run of frames (not my design, but I was involved) that started cracking the weld under the HT. A lot of these bikes were in rental fleets and I stayed at one shop all night with dye penetrant checking and taking bikes out of service. We later traced it to a batch of "hot welds".

    CEN, EN and other testing has helped a lot. When I first got involved, destructive testing was not wide spread or standardized. But the two problems I mentioned above would not be caught by testing. Just staying on top of it.

    Things will slow me down, but will not stop me. And I pride myself on meticulous engineering. For most of my career, the results of engineering error cost cost tons of money, loss of sponsorship, wrecked cars and injured drivers. It just puts a finer point on the importance of the details.

    Thanks for the good words and vote of confidence. It's fun to think what I'm sitting on.

    Cable routing. This is where I am

    All internal dropper, a pain, but worth it.

    All internal rear der. A pain......everyone seems to want it...

    Fr Der? Not enough people want a front der to make it worth extra holes.

    brake? I just couldn't put it inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Here ya go pig, nothing like a little sharpie love to spruce things up a bit

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    Why do the eyes remind me of Millhouse?

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    With every bike I build with internal routing, I wish we'd go back to external. At least for mtbs. It looks great on road bikes which can also go longer without replacing cables and housing, but I don't think it's a worth it for mtbs. Seatposts yes though.

    We'll all be on 1x with wireless rear ders soon enough anyway.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    As for the DT, etc, every new method of construction has its learning curve. the idea is that the engineer involved has sufficient experience and acumen to identify where it can go wrong.
    My question would be, is it necessary to make the tube that way? I assume there is some benefit to it, weight or whatever, but if it is a potential problem area, might it be safer to use a conventional construction method for the time being? Like I say, the new suspension is the big news. Selling that feature alone will consume a lot of time and and energy. Anything which has the potential to be a weakness on another part of the frame could prove a very unwelcome distraction. I'd want the rest of the frame to be as bomb-proof as possible.

    But you're the expert. I don't doubt your understanding of the issues. If you say the frame design is solid I'm sure you're right.

    Cable routing. This is where I am...
    Putting cables though the down/top tubes isn't too bad but no way I'd put them through the stays. My full-sus has the rear dérailleur cable through the stay and it is a total pain. The tight bends also effect shifting.

    Putting rear brake lines though any tube is also bad. It makes it impossible to change brakes without bleeding and the hose end fittings can be very hard to get through holes and tubes. In short, if the cable can't be inserted simply and without tight bends I wouldn't do it.

    I reckon the industry will move away from full internal. It's too much hassle. One solution I did like was a grove/indent in the underside of the top/down tube so that the cables were tucked out of sight without actually being internal. I can't remember what bike I saw that on?

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    Internal housing isn't bad, it just depends on implementation and how realistic the intended method of running the cables is. Guides, doors, access, etc.

    Things I worry about:

    Bearing designs
    Ease of changing bearings by user
    Reliability of bearings and suspension members (bolts, etc.)
    Ability to run a coil shock
    Frame stiffness (obviously)

    Although some of these seem obvious, I tend to see a difference in bikes made by big companies, in many cases they seem to be one or two-season bikes, where after that time the suspension is so clapped out that it makes little sense to keep replacing hardware, bearings and other bits, vs. a bike you can just pump some grease into some ports and it's good to go for another 6 months.

    One thing I'd be looking at specifically if I had the ability to test one is the low speed compression damping, they claimed you didn't need as much on DW link bikes, and this claims to go even further, yet I feel you need a great deal more than these bikes come with it their "open" setting, as the chassis stability is usually terrible and it bounces all over and dips and dives. I'm not sure how this can get around this using OEM shocks with less compression damping. The ability to run a coil and other shocks would be important to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Internal housing isn't bad, it just depends on implementation and how realistic the intended method of running the cables is. Guides, doors, access, etc.

    Things I worry about:

    Bearing designs
    Ease of changing bearings by user
    Reliability of bearings and suspension members (bolts, etc.)
    Ability to run a coil shock
    Frame stiffness (obviously)

    Although some of these seem obvious, I tend to see a difference in bikes made by big companies, in many cases they seem to be one or two-season bikes, where after that time the suspension is so clapped out that it makes little sense to keep replacing hardware, bearings and other bits, vs. a bike you can just pump some grease into some ports and it's good to go for another 6 months.

    One thing I'd be looking at specifically if I had the ability to test one is the low speed compression damping, they claimed you didn't need as much on DW link bikes, and this claims to go even further, yet I feel you need a great deal more than these bikes come with it their "open" setting, as the chassis stability is usually terrible and it bounces all over and dips and dives. I'm not sure how this can get around this using OEM shocks with less compression damping. The ability to run a coil and other shocks would be important to me.
    I'll be listening.

    Regarding the LSC issue and how it creates a "platform" for both pedaling and overall bike stability... It is interesting to look at frame designs that represent far ends of the spectrum. A frame by Tantrum that relys on a lot of linkage magic to provide platform (a step even beyond higher AS type dw or vpp bikes) but relys on pedal force - so that support is not there if not pedalling. Compare that to Trek's design, that has a very simple linkage, but relys on magic in the shock. The benefit of the latter is that the platform does not rely on pedaling, and the linkage is far simpler. The issue with a lot of LSC, which I like when the going is slow, is getting rid of harshness when the speed picks up.

    I realize Tantrum supposedly has more going for it than what I just mentioned, like changing geo on climbs.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    My question would be, is it necessary to make the tube that way? I assume there is some benefit to it, weight or whatever, but if it is a potential problem area, might it be safer to use a conventional construction method for the time being? Like I say, the new suspension is the big news. Selling that feature alone will consume a lot of time and and energy. Anything which has the potential to be a weakness on another part of the frame could prove a very unwelcome distraction. I'd want the rest of the frame to be as bomb-proof as possible.

    But you're the expert. I don't doubt your understanding of the issues. If you say the frame design is solid I'm sure you're right.



    Putting cables though the down/top tubes isn't too bad but no way I'd put them through the stays. My full-sus has the rear dérailleur cable through the stay and it is a total pain. The tight bends also effect shifting.

    Putting rear brake lines though any tube is also bad. It makes it impossible to change brakes without bleeding and the hose end fittings can be very hard to get through holes and tubes. In short, if the cable can't be inserted simply and without tight bends I wouldn't do it.

    I reckon the industry will move away from full internal. It's too much hassle. One solution I did like was a grove/indent in the underside of the top/down tube so that the cables were tucked out of sight without actually being internal. I can't remember what bike I saw that on?
    Is it necessary to make the tube that way? In the end, I will say no. Trunion shocks will help immensely, offering a shorter eye to eye per stroke.

    The reason the tube is like that is that the shock location is pretty optimized for all of the performance parameters and the only way to avoid the tube manipulation is to put a bigger bend, which is then a contact problem for logs/rocks. (ask me how I know). But for now, it just works so damn good, it needs to be made. With due engineering care, the downtube design is just another problem to be solved. I put the time in.

    I have the rear der thru the chain stay, Seems to work fine and maybe even protects the cable a bit.

    The groovy tube sounds cool, but maybe expensive and heavy for what it does.

    I'm thinking of a light, simple, external guide. maybe a piece you can weld a few to any location in production, that would also make it very easy and clean for riders to route and maintain. You could use little plastic snappy things or even zip ties to hold the cables/hoses in.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Internal housing isn't bad, it just depends on implementation and how realistic the intended method of running the cables is. Guides, doors, access, etc.

    Things I worry about:

    Bearing designs
    Ease of changing bearings by user
    Reliability of bearings and suspension members (bolts, etc.)
    Ability to run a coil shock
    Frame stiffness (obviously)

    Although some of these seem obvious, I tend to see a difference in bikes made by big companies, in many cases they seem to be one or two-season bikes, where after that time the suspension is so clapped out that it makes little sense to keep replacing hardware, bearings and other bits, vs. a bike you can just pump some grease into some ports and it's good to go for another 6 months.

    One thing I'd be looking at specifically if I had the ability to test one is the low speed compression damping, they claimed you didn't need as much on DW link bikes, and this claims to go even further, yet I feel you need a great deal more than these bikes come with it their "open" setting, as the chassis stability is usually terrible and it bounces all over and dips and dives. I'm not sure how this can get around this using OEM shocks with less compression damping. The ability to run a coil and other shocks would be important to me.
    Jayem,

    Bearing design: Mostly about understanding loads and bearing ratings. And not trying to go too small to save a few grams. And testing. I started with smaller bearings in many locations in the very first proto. I wanted to make sure I was going to find the weak links. And I did. The bearings in the driven link (from the rocker to the Missing Link) and the top of the Missing Link. These bearings are enduring the "fight" for control of the shock, between horizontal and vertical forces.

    Those bearings have been upsized twice and the rocker/driven link interface has been change from a DU bushing to bearings.

    But pumping grease into ports doesn't really work for sealed cartridge bearings. If they have run out, the seals are done and they're usually toast.

    As for maintenance, all of the bearings are located in the links and rockers, not in the frame. This makes it much easier to replace. Std sizes.

    The problem with bikes dipping and diving is much more than LSC. It can be large volume air cans mated to not progressive enough linkage. It can and usually is also related to a lack of progression in the compression damping.

    In other words, dumping ALL of the compression damping is not the answer. i request a more progressive curve, that is light on LSC but ramps up at mid to high speed.

    The complicating matter is that the spring is position sensitive while damping is velocity sensitive. So, I have also calculated the spring force to increase at a further stage of compression than the competition. That is intentional, to keep the rear a bit lower, the rake a bit slacker, at high speeds. The support is still there, just occurs slightly later in the travel.

    Same analogy with the damping. I want less low speed, but ramped up mid to high. It lets the wheel move easily over small imperfections, with very low breakaway force. But when things get serious and shock velocity increases, so does the damping and support.

    It takes are thinking. Nobody else in the industry can or will request the damping packages I am using. It just won't work. It's an integral approach.

    Speaking of other shocks. Again,, it's an integral approach. Shock fitment is tight, but that's just one factor.

    The shocks I am spec'ing are specifically tuned to work with the linkage and forces available. A coilover, generally would be bad. You would have to run a very stiff spring to keep from bottoming and lose and suppleness. The linkage was design for a low volume (high rising rate) air spring.

    I would also surmise that your desire to run other shocks is because you are not happy with the performance being offered to you on an oe level.

    I would bet a small sum of money that changing shocks would become less important once you rode the bike.

    cheers,

    brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    I'll be listening.

    Regarding the LSC issue and how it creates a "platform" for both pedaling and overall bike stability... It is interesting to look at frame designs that represent far ends of the spectrum. A frame by Tantrum that relys on a lot of linkage magic to provide platform (a step even beyond higher AS type dw or vpp bikes) but relys on pedal force - so that support is not there if not pedalling. Compare that to Trek's design, that has a very simple linkage, but relys on magic in the shock. The benefit of the latter is that the platform does not rely on pedaling, and the linkage is far simpler. The issue with a lot of LSC, which I like when the going is slow, is getting rid of harshness when the speed picks up.

    I realize Tantrum supposedly has more going for it than what I just mentioned, like changing geo on climbs.
    MikerJ,

    It's important realize that the pedaling platform and the support you need at various points in the travel are not really the same. I do not need any kind of pedaling platform whatsoever. Usually, this is created with a blow off type valving, which is digressive. That is to say, it resists movement to a point and then lets go without increasing force further.

    This is bad.

    The platform you need for maneuvers or to keep the bike from plunging thru the travel, is different. It is better served with more progressive spring rate and damping, and is generally further into the stroke than a pedaling platform.

    The fact that one can be "crutched" with the other should not confuse the issue.

    b

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Jayem,

    Bearing design: Mostly about understanding loads and bearing ratings. And not trying to go too small to save a few grams. And testing. I started with smaller bearings in many locations in the very first proto. I wanted to make sure I was going to find the weak links. And I did. The bearings in the driven link (from the rocker to the Missing Link) and the top of the Missing Link. These bearings are enduring the "fight" for control of the shock, between horizontal and vertical forces.

    Those bearings have been upsized twice and the rocker/driven link interface has been change from a DU bushing to bearings.

    But pumping grease into ports doesn't really work for sealed cartridge bearings. If they have run out, the seals are done and they're usually toast.

    As for maintenance, all of the bearings are located in the links and rockers, not in the frame. This makes it much easier to replace. Std sizes.

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    cheers,

    brian
    From my experience around boats, cars and mtb. Bearings are often dies from rust due to low friction deals that can't handle a garden hose wash or submerging.

    On our Magiclink bikes Ive popped of all seals (carefully prying with a sewing needle on the outside of the seal) and packed them 100% full of propshaft marinegreas that are very sticky to be resistant against saltwater.
    The only wear so far after 6 years of hard use is in the bushins in the rear - CS/SS. And shock bushings. Worse is in the auxiliary shock frame mount.

    All bearings still running smooth including wheels and BB that have got the same treatment.

    The sensible thing to do would high pressure seals (HRS) all over that can handle direct washing with even a high pressure washer since the seals are designed do the lip are pressed to seal more if water is pressing on it when regular RS seals will give.

    HRS seals have been available for over 10years. But I don't know if you can get them on the right size for mtb frames.

    I suspect the "market" still do not prioritate things that might make a bikeframe last longer then necessary, as with cars that we know are made to brake down as soon as possible after the guarantee ends! >:-(


    Gunnar


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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Crazy to think about, isn't it? I think the overall weight gain would be close to nil. I want this bike so much that I am considering offering it as a later delivery Kickstarter reward, probably at a slightly higher price, because it will need new Missing Link and driven link as well as rockers and dropouts, shock and shock mount.

    It's not something I can make out of the existing parts matrix.

    Who needs 125 mm version?? Certainly the overall package could be built up lighter, with a much lighter fork and wheels. Even at that, I'm thinking something weird, like a 100 mm fork with a 160 mm rear travel for pure XC racing.

    Why? You don't need the travel in front for XC, but the extra travel in the rear means extra steep for climbing and extra slack for descending. hmmmmm. Carbon fiber, 23 lbs or so.....
    Crazy good it sounds. And since Tantrum seems to be all about good craziness, even the name and crazy HT badge now start to make sense! :-)

    I was out on the probably last ride of this season. Frozen fast trails, dry rock gardens and bedrock. So much fun!!! Now I'm getting a bit depressed being back up in the ice covered mountains. But also happy to look forward to ride that same trail on my new Tantrum. The loop got one loose climb that I make maybe 1 out of 10 times. Also it got a descent that is very sketchy when wet, and needs to be done with decent speed to get the flow over the sharp rocks.

    This 180mm "revelation" of yours sounds very interesting.
    The question is if the 20mm extra will be worth wating for.........
    160mm and 29" or 27+ wheels is kind of the norm now. But I really want to get the best out of this.

    Very good of you to stay so open about the process since most other brands would keep such things up the sleeve to "milk out" as many bikes on the market as possible before offering the next upgrade...

    Way to go Brian!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Crazy good it sounds. And since Tantrum seems to be all about good craziness, even the name and crazy HT badge now start to make sense! :-)

    I was out on the probably last ride of this season. Frozen fast trails, dry rock gardens and bedrock. So much fun!!! Now I'm getting a bit depressed being back up in the ice covered mountains. But also happy to look forward to ride that same trail on my new Tantrum. The loop got one loose climb that I make maybe 1 out of 10 times. Also it got a descent that is very sketchy when wet, and needs to be done with decent speed to get the flow over the sharp rocks.

    This 180mm "revelation" of yours sounds very interesting.
    The question is if the 20mm extra will be worth wating for.........
    160mm and 29" or 27+ wheels is kind of the norm now. But I really want to get the best out of this.

    Very good of you to stay so open about the process since most other brands would keep such things up the sleeve to "milk out" as many bikes on the market as possible before offering the next upgrade...

    Way to go Brian!



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    Not to complicate the issue, or cause indecision.....I think I will offer the 180 mm configuration on Kickstarter. BUT, at a slightly higher price and later delivery, maybe june/july. It will take a lot of extra parts.

    The good news is, any of the existing Tantrum frames can be upgraded with said parts.

    How's that for obsolete resistant?

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post

    The good news is, any of the existing Tantrum frames can be upgraded with said parts.

    How's that for obsolete resistant?
    I was just going to ask that but I figured that would be the answer. Just one more thing that makes these bikes awesome!!

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    There is one case in which I can think of that 125mm is more beneficial than 160 or 180, and that is maintaining speed over variable terrain. Long travel can absorb forward momentum just because of how squishy it is, and in cases where gravity isn't doing all the propulsion, this would be a cause to stick with a shorter travel bike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eicca View Post
    There is one case in which I can think of that 125mm is more beneficial than 160 or 180, and that is maintaining speed over variable terrain. Long travel can absorb forward momentum just because of how squishy it is, and in cases where gravity isn't doing all the propulsion, this would be a cause to stick with a shorter travel bike.
    Interesting quote on that very issue

    "the bike has a great ability to maintain speed" Brandon Turman

  68. #68
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    Maybe this could be a good reason for a LSC adjustment by remot controle on the bars on the 160 and 180 travel modles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axa View Post
    Maybe this could be a good reason for a LSC adjustment by remot controle on the bars on the 160 and 180 travel modles?
    blasphemy!! One of my main motivations is to make any messing around while riding unnecessary. I don't think it's needed.

    If I can figure out a dropper post you don't have to mess with, I''ll really be happy.

  70. #70
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    Brian, care to comment on this part of the review on Vital: "though it felt a bit mushy when pressing into turns and pumping compressions."

    I don't know enough about suspension to know if this addresses that: "The X Fusion shock tune sees a slight increase in high-speed compression and slightly smaller air can volume"

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian, care to comment on this part of the review on Vital: "though it felt a bit mushy when pressing into turns and pumping compressions."

    I don't know enough about suspension to know if this addresses that: "The X Fusion shock tune sees a slight increase in high-speed compression and slightly smaller air can volume"
    I'm curious as well. I would have thought stuff like this might be sorted out given the emphasis on the linkage performance but perhaps there's a reasonable explanation...

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian, care to comment on this part of the review on Vital: "though it felt a bit mushy when pressing into turns and pumping compressions."

    I don't know enough about suspension to know if this addresses that: "The X Fusion shock tune sees a slight increase in high-speed compression and slightly smaller air can volume"
    keo,

    Pretty straightforward. I always try to set everyone up soft to start, to amplify the ability to pedal great. I usually shoot for 35% and believe we started there.

    Additonally, as BT stated, he started in the full soft, out of 4 useable compression settings. The 2 or 3 setting adds quite a bit of support, without harshness. I think a guy 250 or so might even want the #4, or stiffest setting. It's still not a lockout.

    I wish he would have mentioned it for our ride, I'll bet one click would have addressed most of it.

    Having said that, I was a little worried when (due to his lighter weight), we took 5 psi out of my setup, but then he pulled out his DVO fork setup and ADDED 25 psi to my setup.

    But BT is a bad ass and he crushed the fork on that gap jump, making the o-ring want to join molecules with the crown. So a little soft and a little bottoming for giant gap jumps. Easily rectified.

    But we really didn't have time to go thru a tuning session. If you are a long time reader, you know he is pretty meticulous about suspension setup.

    Also, I have stated, I do INTEND for the rear to ride a little lower at speed. So, I will put forth that the suspension feels different in several ways, ways that BT himself admits are "fuzzy" to him as to how it does what I claim. So there is a bit of acclimation time to fully trust what is going on.

    I can't wait till he gets to test it with the production changes and DVO shock......

    Also gonna throw an x2 on......

  73. #73
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    Brian,

    Thanks for the detailed response. I always tend to separate the climbing and descending parts of the reviews in my mind b/c there is usually some adjustments made between them so I didn't make the connection between the soft setting in the climb section to the descending section.

    I also cannot wait to try this bike with the production changes and a DVO shock...

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    blasphemy!! One of my main motivations is to make any messing around while riding unnecessary. I don't think it's needed.

    If I can figure out a dropper post you don't have to mess with, I''ll really be happy.
    Please forgive me.. God might know what I was thinking..... I will wipp my own back a 100times with a rusty chain until a bleed and hope that will make me never consider to mention that word again!
    Im sure a good enough LSC tuned shock will help me stay on that narrow path towards salvation!

    (Dont be shocked if you see me swoosh past on my Shining 29er, with a "temporary" DIY remote on the Topaz to find the ultimate LSC setting on-the-fly, But probably never manage to.. and end permanently stuck on the dark side... )

  75. #75
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    Brian.

    Since the ML suspension is automatic and seamlessly adjusting the geometry when climbing by decreasing the sag as resistance increases with incline. Do you have an idea if an oval chainring will have any influence of the movement of the shock compared to a round ring? (or an oval in the opposit "wrong way" oval..)
    I would guess a shock with no stiction and no LSC dampening must let the linkage "bob" at least a tiny bit if climbing step in a very heavy gear?

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Do you have an idea if an oval chainring will have any influence of the movement of the shock compared to a round ring?
    I don't know much about oval rings, or this suspension, but if the point of the oval ring is to make power transfer smoother then it can only enhance the action of the suspension. If it does make pedalling smoother?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I don't know much about oval rings, or this suspension, but if the point of the oval ring is to make power transfer smoother then it can only enhance the action of the suspension. If it does make pedalling smoother?
    He's asking if the variation in pivot height due to the shape of the chainring will affect the squat values.

  78. #78
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    Holy Fock are we splitting hairs! Red ones!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT View Post
    He's asking if the variation in pivot height due to the shape of the chainring will affect the squat values.
    Why would the pivot hight vary due to the shape of the chainring?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Why would the pivot hight vary due to the shape of the chainring?
    Because IPA.
    I probably should have said "chain tension vector" or "chain force angle" but I'm not an engineer. In fact, the only initials following my name are there to reflect on my parents lack of creativity and the need to differentiate me from my father. Not only that, until just recently I had no fork or gears and still own nothing with squishy bits in the back. As if that's not enough, it may not even be Gunnar's question, I was just feeling a bit clairvoyant at the time.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT View Post
    I probably should have said "chain tension vector" or "chain force angle" but I'm not an engineer.
    I think I know what you're saying but the answer is the same.

    Whether the 'chain force angle', or whatever you want to call it alters is irrelevant. What actually matters is chain tension. As the whole point of an oval ring is to even out your pedal stroke and give smoother power delivery, the result will be more even chain tension. If that is the case then it will work with the suspension better, not worse. If it was worse then the oval ring would have to be doing the opposite of what it's designed to do!

  82. #82
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    Nah man that aint right. Ive never owned a pocket protector, nor a sliderule but I did spend a lot of time trying to get a motorcycle around a roadrace course faster than the next guy, and a key player in getting one to finish a corner with good drive was the relationship between the swingarm (main) pivot and the countershaft sprocket. In that scenario, millimeters made a perceivable diffeerence. Will the difference an oval varies be percieveable in pedaling? I dont know, but I bet its measurable.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT View Post
    Nah man that aint right. Ive never owned a pocket protector, nor a sliderule but I did spend a lot of time trying to get a motorcycle around a roadrace course faster than the next guy, and a key player in getting one to finish a corner with good drive was the relationship between the swingarm (main) pivot and the countershaft sprocket. In that scenario, millimeters made a perceivable diffeerence. Will the difference an oval varies be percieveable in pedaling? I dont know, but I bet its measurable.
    I don't think you understand what you're talking about or how an oval chainring is supposed to work.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post

    First thought that comes to my mind is Who needs the 125mm option??
    That's the option I'm intending to get with the Kickstarter. I live not that far from Mr. Berthold in the midwest - my trails aren't that technical, and they have sudden, short climbs. I have a 160mm bike (Intense Tracer VP), and while it is a spectacular bike, I find myself using my 127mm Intense Spider around here. The two are only about 2 lb apart in weight, but the efficiency and agility of the Spider are better (after significant fork and shock revalving on my part...).

    Now I see that Mr. Berthold has stated that the 160mm offers nearly no downside, but I think I'd still go the route of the shorter travel 29er for my area (or maybe even short-travel 27.5). I see this bike as a potential rocket on our trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    That's the option I'm intending to get with the Kickstarter. I live not that far from Mr. Berthold in the midwest - my trails aren't that technical, and they have sudden, short climbs. I have a 160mm bike (Intense Tracer VP), and while it is a spectacular bike, I find myself using my 127mm Intense Spider around here. The two are only about 2 lb apart in weight, but the efficiency and agility of the Spider are better (after significant fork and shock revalving on my part...).

    Now I see that Mr. Berthold has stated that the 160mm offers nearly no downside, but I think I'd still go the route of the shorter travel 29er for my area (or maybe even short-travel 27.5). I see this bike as a potential rocket on our trails.
    I'm the same, for some of the parts on the bike, you don't run the same ones on a 160mm travel bike as you do a 125mm, which can save considerable weight.

    Right Now I'm debating 125 or 140.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I don't think you understand what you're talking about or how an oval chainring is supposed to work.
    You may want to look into it a bit before relying too heavily on that assertion. As far as how oval rings work, I suspect their greatest benefit is enjoyed by the makers and merchants. Perhaps that is what you were implying with " supposed to".

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    Quote Originally Posted by SyT View Post
    You may want to look into it a bit before relying too heavily on that assertion. As far as how oval rings work, I suspect their greatest benefit is enjoyed by the makers and merchants. Perhaps that is what you were implying with " supposed to".
    I say that because I've never used one so can't say categorically that they work. I do understand the theory though.

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    I thought I'd post to add my thoughts to the tread of my ride impressions because not everyone has had the opportunity to ride this and more feedback may help some people get an idea of what the bike is like. This post might be kind of long because I'd like to be descriptive but long story short it's an unbelievable bike.

    On Tuesday Brian was nice enough to come by and bring his bikes for my friend and me to ride. Brian rode with us on my Pivot 5.7c with a dropper, 2.4" tires, a 150mm Pike and carbon rims. Basically it's a modern bike with a slightly older frame (26"). I've been riding the bike for almost 5 years and I had a Santa Cruz Blur LT before.

    We rode trails I was very familiar with, I've demoed a few bikes recently like the pivot 429sl, switchblade, and the trek fuel ex. My friend has a pivot Mach 6 which I've also ridden a bit.

    The reason I've held onto my bike for so long is simple--I don't want to spend thousands just to get different. I want better. I want faster. I want more capable. I race my 5.7c, I have a power meter (4.3w/kg) I take it to Moab (whole enchilada is my favorite trail), Colorado, etc. I like cross country and all mountain riding. So far the bikes I've ridden have been good, slightly better in some ways, but not worth the cost of entry and not clearly faster.

    The tantrum is different. The first few pedal strokes out the drive way it's instantly noticeable, the bike accelerates faster than any other FS I've ridden. Coming out of corners the bike always seems more composed and faster. The section of trail I rode, lizard, has some bumpy parts where I usually put in a couple of pedal strokes while still going down a -15% hill. The transition to and from bumps and pedaling was completely seamless--even going downhill. I was worried it would be like the Specialized Brain--but it's not at all. I know some people like the Brain but it's actually just terrible. Brain is harsh, and unpredictable--this bike is none of that.

    Going up smooth stuff, it's like it's locked out. Once the bumps start to come, it's still composed, and it's plush over the bumps. Some bikes are firm--I think this one might have been slightly plusher than the other bikes I've ridden. You can stand and mash the pedals and it still pedals really well. If you are bouncing up and down while pedaling the suspension moves--but not nearly as much as on a normal bike. It's not like standing and climbing on a road bike, but it doesn't wallow and compress so much like other bikes do.

    The crazy thing about it is the grip and what happens at the front end when climbing. The bike just doesn't wander at all. It has crazy grip. I'm used to struggling to pedal up steep stuff while struggling to keep the rear tire from spinning and the front tire on the ground steering. This bike was just easier. It kind of reminded me of the cannondale Scalpel 29 in how well it climbed--but better because I could take a break and stand without just spinning the rear wheel--it was amazing--and I had 162mm of travel, not just 100mm!

    To give you an idea of what I'm talking about--I was riding on a fire road called elevator that is generally avoided like the plague--on strava around here lizard, the fun downhill, has over 4600 riders and it gets ridden all the time. Elevator has only 700 riders ever and is rarely ridden because there are sections that are nearly 40% grade--the first tenth of a mile the lowest the grade gets is 17%. It's murderous. It's also rutted, has loose rocks and sand and dust. And I went up it on a 162mm travel bike with no problem with the front wheel lifting off the ground--at all. The rear wheel didn't spin--at all. I stood and pedaled some sections to take a "break" and it was fine--it didn't burn out, wallow, get off balance or make me wish I had just stayed seated. Unbelievable.

    I went down a trail called rattelsnake, it's a rock garden that's very awkward. On whole enchilada in moab you can fly through the rock gardens pretty easily--this trail I ride all the time and it's not like that--it has loose rocks and ruts and there is no rhythm to it. There are narrow rocky chutes and 1-2' successive drop offs that seem perfectly arranged for a maximum OTB launch. I'm always careful riding a bike for the first time and half way down the trail I just realized I could go faster, and then as I picked up speed I realized I could go faster still and wondered why I had gone so slow at the beginning. The 66deg head tube was really paying off, it was super stable, didn't try and send me over the bars at all and didn't get hung up in any of the holes.

    They talk all the time (especially Pivot) about having a bike that pedals like a cross country bike and decends like a downhill bike and maybe you get a little bit of both but not much. This bike actually pedals better than a cross country bike and decends as well as an enduro bike.

    I can't wait for my tantrum meltdown to show up so I can smoke people at my local cross country races on my 160mm travel bike, then take it to Moab and Colorado and just bomb down the awesome trails there.

    This summer is going to be amazing!
    Last edited by litany; 12-16-2016 at 01:17 AM.

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    Very cool to see a small player coming into the arena with big ideas. I was just talking to a friend the other day about how, despite all the failures, Kickstarter is a really cool way for people to get what they want in the marketplace while supporting actual people rather than huge multinational corporations. I'm glad to see this project funded.

    I may consider one of these for my next bike, though as someone who can't afford the latest and greatest every year I do plan on keeping my current 2014 Scott Genius for another couple years. The Meltdown particularly interests me, because it appears to deliver what originally drew me to the Genius: the Twinlok system for controlling the suspension for climbing and descending, but without all the lever mumbo jumbo that eventually was incompatible with my suspension upgrades anyways. If this linkage design delivers what it promises, it is exactly what I am looking for to suit the type of riding I engage in: long climbs to the top of a mountain, followed by a very spirited trip back down. If this dude needs a West-Coast product tester, count me in.

    I'll be interested to see how the first run of bikes plays out over the coming year and will be hopeful for the companies success. I'd like it if a polished and proven version is an option by the time my bank account permits a new bike purchase.

    As an aside: being originally from the Midwest, I am glad to see a company in Indiana gaining traction. Most of my family is from there and I've seen first hand the toll the recession has taken on the state. Hopefully this can create some jobs in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James39 View Post
    Very cool to see a small player coming into the arena with big ideas. I was just talking to a friend the other day about how, despite all the failures, Kickstarter is a really cool way for people to get what they want in the marketplace while supporting actual people rather than huge multinational corporations. I'm glad to see this project funded.

    I may consider one of these for my next bike, though as someone who can't afford the latest and greatest every year I do plan on keeping my current 2014 Scott Genius for another couple years. The Meltdown particularly interests me, because it appears to deliver what originally drew me to the Genius: the Twinlok system for controlling the suspension for climbing and descending, but without all the lever mumbo jumbo that eventually was incompatible with my suspension upgrades anyways. If this linkage design delivers what it promises, it is exactly what I am looking for to suit the type of riding I engage in: long climbs to the top of a mountain, followed by a very spirited trip back down. If this dude needs a West-Coast product tester, count me in.

    I'll be interested to see how the first run of bikes plays out over the coming year and will be hopeful for the companies success. I'd like it if a polished and proven version is an option by the time my bank account permits a new bike purchase.

    As an aside: being originally from the Midwest, I am glad to see a company in Indiana gaining traction. Most of my family is from there and I've seen first hand the toll the recession has taken on the state. Hopefully this can create some jobs in the area.
    Hi James,

    Just getting caught up after closing kickstarter. Obviously, I'm happy with the platform, 81k and 40 sales in 2 months. Now to deliver. And sell more at the same time. Welcome to owning a bike company!

    Where on the West Coast? I will be in SoCal this weekend, Jan 7-11, doing demo rides with 2 bikes. You'll love it.

    Anybody interested in demos, buzz me. In additon to SoCal, I will be in Denver/Co Spgs, the following weekend, Jan 12-15.

    cheers,

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi James,

    Just getting caught up after closing kickstarter. Obviously, I'm happy with the platform, 81k and 40 sales in 2 months. Now to deliver. And sell more at the same time. Welcome to owning a bike company!

    Where on the West Coast? I will be in SoCal this weekend, Jan 7-11, doing demo rides with 2 bikes. You'll love it.

    Anybody interested in demos, buzz me. In additon to SoCal, I will be in Denver/Co Spgs, the following weekend, Jan 12-15.

    cheers,

    Brian
    Damn, haven't been on in a week or so and missed this one. I'm up in the Bay Area, I'd love to Demo one of your bikes one of these days.

    Do you post your Demo availability anywhere? If I can't catch ya out this way, I travel to Chicago and NW IN somewhat regularly to visit family, maybe I could catch ya out that way sometime. I have a MTB buddy in Denver, I'll see if he's interested in trying one out while you are there.

    Glad to see your kickstarter went so well! I'll be keeping you in mind when it comes time to get a new bike, seems like you've got the momentum to have it dialed in when that time (and money) comes around.

  92. #92
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    Brian or any others who have demoed a Meltdown, a couple of questions:

    With the changed Geo (i.e.) shorter chainstays, on the production frames how is the playfulness of the bike? I'm not a hucker, anything >5' drop and I'll probably bail (can't work with a broken arm) but I like to hit any natural transitions, doubles, jumps, and what not. I've ridden a 2015 SC Nomad and it bombed the downhills but it didn't have the playfullness I was looking for, and it didn't climb like I want.

    Also with the DVO and X-fusion shock being specifically dampnened for this frame set-up will most of the companies and shops that rebuild suspesnion be able to work on the shock without screwing up all the work you've done to make this bike what it is?

    Thanks

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    Welp, despite a fair bit of scepticism initially, I gotta say Brian is really on to something...

    A buddy and I randomly happened upon Brian at a local trailhead offering demo's. After chatting and taking a quick parking lot lap we invited him on our ride... a chunky tech trail that'll push "enduro" bikes to their limits (for most riders). Neither my buddy or I were willing to give up our rigs, but I was more then happy to swap bikes for a few experiments both climbing and descending some demanding sections.

    A little background on me - aging... decent local (SoCal) results racing both XC and DH as an expert years ago, took a decade off, back riding hard for a few years. Currently milking an SB66c w/ 170mm F36 + float x and while it works, I'm well aware of its inherent pros/cons. Slack seat tube angle with short stays requires a solid platform on shock for climbing (for me) and the rear hangs up a bit on square edges when high in the travel while descending.

    The Tantrum 27.5 (160mm? Model name?) Test...

    Climbing: Despite the bike being set up considerably softer then my ride (w/ low end shock) and different reach, cockpit, etc the thing felt incredibly efficient. Instead of having the ride the nose when things got steep it seemed like the seat tube angle was adjusting to the pitch/power output - but with no noticeable side effects... Totally natural. It also appears that Brian's claim of an active suspension without robbing any power is exactly that, and this opinion is coming from someone who prefers high pedal feedback and/or a very firm platform. The bike was run with the shock open the whole time... something I personally couldn't ever fathom doing on any design. One thing I didn't do was stomp down on the pedals out of the saddle in a bmx style effort. Prob not an issue, but something I'd like to have tested.

    Descending: The back end basically disappeared. Amazingly plush for lack of a decent description. While descending some serious chunk my only concern was where to put front wheel. No square edge hang up at all, no discernible bottom outs, never got kicked around and this trail is the perfect stress test. Pretty amazing. While the shorter reach, different stack height, cockpit etc kept me from making any firm opinions on the geometry and whether it'd be a slam dunk for me, the linkage undoubtably works. I had read the vital review (same exact bike) that stated a concern was that it might lack support for hard cornering and pumping... while I felt a bit of this, the shock was obviously low end and lower pressure then what I'd prefer, and never once was the damping adjuster used. Saying that I was looking for things to nitpick. Pretty sure a little low speed would solve any support issues along with dialing in pressure.

    To "keep it real" the bike had a couple of small issues that needed to be worked through, but these were obviously due to being prototypes and have simple fixes. I'm looking forward to a day soon that I can ride a Med production bike and have a CC with room on it!

    Brian- it was great meeting you, good luck with everything and hope to catch up on your next trip out!
    Last edited by EatsDirt; 03-19-2017 at 11:36 PM.

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    holy mother of all things. What Mr eats Dirt failed to mention was that the trail in question was the Suicide trail at Cheseboro. The name is appropriate. One of the most "you better know what you're doing an dbe paying attention 100% or you will eat it hard" trails I've ridden on in recent memory.

    Made Rocky Peak seem a little tiny bit easy by comparison. And that's saying something. So thanks Mr EartsDirt for letting me tag along and waiting for the slow old man. It was awesome. And for those that don't know him, eats dirt is a monster rider, up and down. I have some video clips we'l get up later.

    thanks again for a great ride.

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    EatsDirt, how did the frame do in terms of flex in the rear triangle?
    => CannondaleExperts.com <=
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    Quote Originally Posted by eicca View Post
    EatsDirt, how did the frame do in terms of flex in the rear triangle?
    Unfortunately I can't really give a firm opinion on that... The seat stay brace (proto issue previously mentioned) had been damaged allowing for a more back end wag then what I'd expect a production frame to have. While I'm not a bike engineer, I'd imagine it is a brainless fix for production. Brian has a reasonable explanation for the issue, perhaps he'll elaborate.

    Given the issue I wasn't sure I wanted to ride the bike but Brian didn't seem too concerned. To the credit of the design, seat stays, linkage and everything else, the bike took a solid beating and everything held together. If the rest of the linkage can handle the lack of support between the seat stays in an abusive environment, it's probably safe to assume a production frame will deal with the stresses of aggressive riding. Probably sounds strange but riding it this way actually adds credibility in my book. Overall rear end stiffness... dunno, but I have a lot of faith in Brian now.

    Brian- Glad you enjoyed the ride... you handled that sh!t! Stoked to have you sample some of our fun trails!

    For those that don't know Brian, the guy is knocking on the door of 60 and still riding trails that many half his age want no part of. Half mad scientist, full shredding animal!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Unfortunately I can't really give a firm opinion on that... The seat stay brace (proto issue previously mentioned) had been damaged allowing for a more back end wag then what I'd expect a production frame to have. While I'm not a bike engineer, I'd imagine it is a brainless fix for production. Brian has a reasonable explanation for the issue, perhaps he'll elaborate.

    Given the issue I wasn't sure I wanted to ride the bike but Brian didn't seem too concerned. To the credit of the design, seat stays, linkage and everything else, the bike took a solid beating and everything held together. If the rest of the linkage can handle the lack of support between the seat stays in an abusive environment, it's probably safe to assume a production frame will deal with the stresses of aggressive riding. Probably sounds strange but riding it this way actually adds credibility in my book. Overall rear end stiffness... dunno, but I have a lot of faith in Brian now.
    As Mr Eatsdirt mentioned, the bridge on the seatstay was cracked. In fact, it has been cracked ever since I did a video showing how the bike could support my weight (about a year ago), even when jumping up and down, WITHOUT a rear shock, just from pedal pressure thru the Missing Link. The only problem was that I backed off pedal pressure slightly, the suspension collapsed and the bridge wacked the seat tube. (I showed it in an outtake)

    It would have been fine, but on this particular seat stay, I decided to put a cute lightening window (saved 2 grams), where the bridge joined the SS. While the remaining material was strong enough for the bridge application, it was too thin to take the extra abuse of wacking the seat tube.

    Lesson learned, window had been removed from the design last year. In the meantime, I decided to keep testing and demo-ing the bike. Partly as a test to see the difference between bridge and no bridge (as some bikes do not use a SS bridge at all). But eventually, the fatigue got to the rest of the bridge and it cracked all the way thru on our ride that day.

    As it turns out, I was reasonably impressed that the bike remained as stiff as it was, but it definitely showed the value of the SS bridge to me in keeping things tight in the rear.

    BTW, if this was any kind of safety issue (like a cracked headtube or something), I would not have let the bike be demoed. I apologize if you felt like I was using you for a guinea pig. Really, I was using you as a hardcore test rider that could give the bike a lot and see if you could tell. Thanks for being willing to ride it with a known fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post

    Brian- Glad you enjoyed the ride... you handled that sh!t! Stoked to have you sample some of our fun trails!

    For those that don't know Brian, the guy is knocking on the door of 60 and still riding trails that many half his age want no part of. Half mad scientist, full shredding animal!
    Actually, I made a rule that when you hit 50, you get to start counting backward. If you get to zero, you win. Sooo, I'm knocking on the door of reverse 40.

    I didn't really feel like a shredder that day. Partly the ride the day before at Rocky Peak had taken a little out of me. Partly the thought of flying to Taiwan for 14 hrs the next day.

    And PARTLY because that trail is a little intimidating the first time. Do you remember your first time down that trail??? It's so funny, there is NOTHING like the first time (no I'm not quoting a teenage sex song), but when you don't know the trail, there is a surprise around every corner and it definitely adds a little excitement to the proceedings.

    It'll almost be a little boring next time....NOT
    Last edited by TantrumCycles; 03-25-2017 at 02:54 PM.

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    After following the various threads on Brians bikes recently I decide I had to ride one and see what its all about. Last Saturday I met Brian at Rocky Peak in Simi Valley (same place RC from Pinkbike reviewed the bike last year) to give the 160mm Meltdown a try.

    I'm and aggressive rider in my 30's that came from racing motos in the desert and enjoy rocky terrain. I've owned longer travel bikes in the past but have been on a 5" travel trail bike the last few years that probably gets more abuse than it was design for so I'm looking into 150-160mm bikes for my next purchase.

    The climb up Rocky Peak is a steep and chunky sandstone fire road with smother sections mixed in. On the smoother sections the bike firmed up and extended completely just as Brian said it would with no bob or motion from the suspension at all. This was great because he has an angleset that brings it to 64 degrees and I was concerned about wander on the steep pitches but the geometry change takes care of it. The bike didn't wander anymore than my bike and wasn't getting unnecessarily light in the front end either. On the chunky parts of the climb I generally pick my way from side to side to find the best line as to not lose traction or get hung up but since this was a demo I decided to do the opposite and aim for the worst lines and see what happens. To my surprise the the bike goes from basically locked out to bump absorption/traction mode seamlessly. It handled these sections so much better than my bike, more traction, less hanging up, it just felt good. Then once through the rough bits its back to being efficient with no flipping of switches.

    On the downs I first have to say that the size was too small for me. It was the prototype med which Brian explained is now a small for production models. So with a shorter reach and bar width (740 vs 780) than I'm used to it took some adjustment. Also I noticed that the rebound on the fork wasn't where I prefer but instead of stopping to adjust things I decided to focus my attention on the rear end. We descended Hummingbird trail which is steep and rocky with some 3 foot drops and the bike handled it very well, again better than mine. This might be the plushest bike in this travel range that I've ever ridden and thats with an inexpensive X Fusion shock. I have a DVO Topaz on my bike which will be offered as an upgrade apparently and can only imagine how much better it could be with that shock. In the end I had about 3mm of travel left on the shock so it used almost all of its travel and used it well. I commented to him at the bottom that i felt the rear of the bike felt better than the Diamond on the front FWIW.

    So this bike climbs better and descends better than my bike, I really like the adjustability of the different rear dropouts, I think I'll get a frame and build one up.
    Last edited by Sesostris; 03-26-2017 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesostris View Post
    no flipping of switches.
    Crazy how platform doesn't even remotely matter, yea?!? I'm still amazed how Brian's bike (with no adjustments) climbed so much better... or at a minimum much more comfortable then my bike despite under-inflated shock, no platform, and without hours of tinkering with tune, fit etc. That's not even considering how well it worked down despite the short reach, low psi, etc.

    I've been geeking out ever since... can't get over how groundbreaking this design is.

    MUST. RIDE. PRODUCTION. BIKE. SOON!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by EatsDirt; 03-27-2017 at 12:59 AM. Reason: Chrome wont paragraph?

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