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  1. #101
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    EatsDirt, maybe I missed it - what is your normal bike?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Crazy how platform doesn't even remotely matter, yea?!? I'm still amazed how Brian's bike (with no adjustments) climbed so much better... or at a minimum much more comfortable then my bike despite under-inflated shock, no platform, and without hours of tinkering with tune, fit etc. That's not even considering how well it worked down despite the short reach, low psi, etc.

    I've been geeking out ever since... can't get over how groundbreaking this design is.

    MUST. RIDE. PRODUCTION. BIKE. SOON!!!!!!!!!
    Yeah I was amazed with how dialed it felt. We checked sag but I'm the same size as Brian so it was ready to go without any adjustment. After our loop I told him I needed to take it up the Rocky Peak climb again because I couldn't believe how easy it made it through the chunky sections compared to my bike. I'm also on a Yeti but an SB95.

    I tried seated spinning through this particular section then went back and did it in a gear higher with a stand and mash approach. Both ways worked equally well, tons of traction and didn't get bucked around nearly as much as on my bike. BTW I consider my bike to be a very good climber its just that Brians bike is better.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Currently milking an SB66c w/ 170mm F36 + float x
    Ah, I did miss it. The post above ("also on a Yeti") made me remember this. Carry on!

  4. #104
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    I've been thinking about this and I wonder what the criticism will be ? What I mean is some people will say only DW-links work well, I'm partial to the Horst link myself, Yet's climb best, etc. You can pick a system or a bike and people will have opinions on it, and if you go into the manufacturer sub-forums every make seems to have their ardent fan-bois. We all know its highly unlikely there will be some epiphany in the industry and Brian's bikes will take over the world, things don't work that way . But if this system works as well as many of the reviewers are saying, I wonder what the criticism will be ? "well it climbs well but bla bla bla". Its not the prettiest bike (and I'm a function over form kind of guy) and its a bit heavier and complicated compared to some, but as far as riding dynamics I'm curious what the perceived downsides would be.

    Just some idle curiousity while I anticipate trying this bike.

  5. #105
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    Well the FIRST thing every internet troll is going to say is, "Where's the carbon version?" I'll never understand this...aluminum is just fine (I prefer it, honestly), but they will rant about this without ever swinging a leg over the bike.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I've been thinking about this and I wonder what the criticism will be ? We all know its highly unlikely there will be some epiphany in the industry and Brian's bikes will take over the world, things don't work that way .
    My only criticism is the rear felt almost too plush. Brian and I are approx the same weight but my bike is set up pretty firm, in part as a compromise for climbing geo, part because it'll manage big hits better... Because Brian and I were swapping bikes throughout the ride, I just rode it as is (set up to exaggerate the efficiency with soft shock open)

    My time on the bike was not a comprehensive test... I didn't descend sections that had hard bermed corners to carve or trail features to pump. Perhaps the plushness would affect that in a negative way, but I think a little more slow speed damping or more importantly dialing in the spring would take care of any lack of support. I want more time on it to make sure that is not an issue, as well as the reach and descending geo are a perfect fit.

    There were a lot of things that could and should have prevented me from liking the bike. I came in intrigued by the "claims" but with plenty of skepticism. Hardly a fanboi of any brand here. In fact the hype surrounding so many bike products is ridiculous (unfortunately I own a few)... but I can confidently say the linkage is an epiphany. Marketing runs the world these days (things work that way) so we'll see how widely accepted it is, but my prediction is in five years time this is what a large portion of hardcore riders will be on assuming a large licensing deals ala Horst Leitner.

    Just my .01

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Well the FIRST thing every internet troll is going to say is, "Where's the carbon version?" I'll never understand this...aluminum is just fine (I prefer it, honestly), but they will rant about this without ever swinging a leg over the bike.
    Some people buy a bike that looks really fast in their garage...

  8. #108
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    Well the FIRST thing every internet troll is going to say is, "Where's the carbon version?"
    If I like the bike, that's the first thing I will say too.

    (I have one ordered btw, not just waiting for a demo ride, so I'm obviously fairly intrigued by the design).

  9. #109
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    How's the seatpost insertion length? Can a post go past that missing link pivot bolted on the seat tube? Is there a hole drilled for stealth routing? They all seem to be spec'd with air shocks but would something that can be highly tuned like a ccdb il coil or push 11-6 work on it? Air shocks tend to heat up to the point of burning you if you bomb down 3,000ft of vert without stopping. Looks like the indiegogo campaign ended?

    Edit, I see it is on kickstarter now.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Well the FIRST thing every internet troll is going to say is, "Where's the carbon version?" I'll never understand this...aluminum is just fine (I prefer it, honestly), but they will rant about this without ever swinging a leg over the bike.
    Som trolls will certainly pick on the numbers of bearings, not realizing the tiny difference in cost and time to replace each single bearing compared to the difference in performance the extra link is giving compared to other patents. And most of them got one more set of aluminum shock bushings, witch normally wears out much faster then sealed bearings to..


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    How's the seatpost insertion length? Can a post go past that missing link pivot bolted on the seat tube? Is there a hole drilled for stealth routing? They all seem to be spec'd with air shocks but would something that can be highly tuned like a ccdb il coil or push 11-6 work on it? Air shocks tend to heat up to the point of burning you if you bomb down 3,000ft of vert without stopping. Looks like the indiegogo campaign ended?

    Edit, I see it is on kickstarter now.
    I've already talked to Brian about a coil- the Linkage will not work with a coil- it needs the progressiveness of an air shock.

    Hope I got that right Brian- coming from memory.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    How's the seatpost insertion length? Can a post go past that missing link pivot bolted on the seat tube? Is there a hole drilled for stealth routing? They all seem to be spec'd with air shocks but would something that can be highly tuned like a ccdb il coil or push 11-6 work on it? Air shocks tend to heat up to the point of burning you if you bomb down 3,000ft of vert without stopping. Looks like the indiegogo campaign ended?

    Edit, I see it is on kickstarter now.
    The pictures of the bikes on Kickstarter show the internal routing for the dropper post and rear derailer starting up near the head tube. I have seen some values from Brian for the insertion length but I am not sure if they are final and don't know if they correspond to the pivot on the seat tube.

    Kickstarter was first, ended in January, and Indiegogo was after but looks like it has passed also.

  13. #113
    because GIANT
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    Bumping
    because...

    getting close to peeps actually getting these in hand, and it'll be owner reviews instead of tester reviews

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Bumping
    because...

    getting close to peeps actually getting these in hand, and it'll be owner reviews instead of tester reviews
    And you think, having purchased bikes, the owners will give vastly different reviews than the testers, who threw a leg over a borrowed (incorrect size?) bike? Or you just want to see more of the glowing reviews that are bound to show up?

  15. #115
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    don't know but amma gonna review it when I get mine

    -works as advertised

    -runs like dog meat

    -whatever


    I do think the worse that can happen, is the size won't be correct, but I asked
    about it and am getting the size recommended.

    setup, bars, seat, post, tune rear der, tune shock, tune fork, tire pressure is all up to me on shakedown rides, which I will do at least ten shakedown rides > 15 miles before commenting on the bike.
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 08-10-2017 at 06:46 AM.

  16. #116
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    sounds like you'd be an honest owner/tester, but there are many who won't due to the fact they don't want to feel like they just lost a fistful of $$$

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishwrinkle View Post
    sounds like you'd be an honest owner/tester, but there are many who won't due to the fact they don't want to feel like they just lost a fistful of $$$
    Maybe. I have to be honest though, as one of the folks who rode the prototypes, as long as the production bikes are true to the design (any I see no reason they shouldn't be) I doubt anyone will feel like they wasted their money unless they discover they just don't like riding bikes. If worked picked up enough for me to grab another bike, this would be one of only two on my list.

  18. #118
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    I hope you aren't referring to me as 'wasting money' if I don't like the bike.

    I never used those words, 'waste'...
    and never would have paid for this if I though it was a 'waste'.

    so, regardless of the bike and how I like it, my few thousand bucks were never, ever wasted. I know what I am doing. I put money out there... and forgot all about the dollar value. irrelevant. Now I get a bike soon, and the adventure starts.


    good or bad, an adventure is not gonna be boring. and I trust RC's review too...so...I think the bike will be spectacular but I gotta get mine to really know.

    I have been waiting for a bouncy bike that pedals out of corners and up hills my whole life, and ............

  19. #119
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    ok mr numbers guy you took that out of context. take a xanax and chill.

    i was try to convey that i'd trust indy testers over owners due to the fact that if they didn't like the bike they probably wouldn't admit to it because they just blew a wad on it. hopefully it works out for ya and you can blow your other wad all over it

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    ...If worked picked up enough for me to grab another bike, this would be one of only two on my list.
    The other one being what, if you don't mind me asking?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    The other one being what, if you don't mind me asking?
    GG Smash probably. I haven't actually ridden it, but I've talked to those cats, and they think that's the bike for me. And it DOES look good. I hope to get a leg over one soon.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    GG Smash probably. I haven't actually ridden it, but I've talked to those cats, and they think that's the bike for me. And it DOES look good. I hope to get a leg over one soon.
    I want to ride one also. I know you can implement designs differently, but it is a Horst link, so for me it's a bike I would never order without riding.

    I haven't like Horst link bikes that I've owned.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    GG Smash probably. I haven't actually ridden it, but I've talked to those cats, and they think that's the bike for me. And it DOES look good. I hope to get a leg over one soon.
    Thank you.

    If I may ask a somewhat naive question...

    I love what Brian has done in the past with Kona. And it sounds like he has once again worked his magic (and more) with his current offerings. I am in the market for a new bike.

    I have, of late, been trying to go for the home run ball on a number of purchase decisions, and have got nothing but air, when maybe cracking a solid double down the third base line would have been a better choice. For example...straying from my trusty 2.3 DHF on my id24 rims, in favour of a WT2.5 DHF. Best of intentions to eek out an extra 5% performance, which backfired on me and set me back 30% performance-wise.

    With that kind of thing in mind (and there has been a long string of this for me), is there any concern about buying an absolutely stellar design from a craft retailer, in terms of longevity, warranty, and help in case something goes sideways 1 or 2 years down the road? Or is it a case that this bike is just so good, that nobody cares and is willing to take that chance, with the view that however long it lasts, it will be worth it? At least with buying from a large manufacturer from my LBS (e.g.; Yeti), I have some comfort that if I snap my frame, there will be some assistance.

    Or am I just chasing ghosts with this concern?

  24. #124
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    Speaking only for myself, this is one of the few bikes I've ever bought new, so it never really crossed my mind. I'm used to never having any kind of warranty. That said, Brain's availability here and the fact that he has personally PM'ed me on occasion gave me the confidence to buy a Kickstarter bike from him. My usage cycle is pretty light, though, compared to the guys out west in real mountains.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    ...My usage cycle is pretty light, though, compared to the guys out west in real mountains.
    I am in the Cdn Rockies. I am usually in the mountains charging as hard as I can, a minimum of 4x/week. Last summer I went 21 days in a row with >30 kms of dirt a day, on relatively technical trails. I put a lot of hard earned mileage on my bikes.

    Heading out now as a matter of fact. I will check for any responses when I return. Thanks for your response, and happy riding.

  26. #126
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    Another "imoh" opinion and experience. Im still riding my 2011 Kona Abracadabra G2. However I have had to replace close to half of the spokes in the rear wheel due to Eastons lousy nipple insets alignment. Also the bushings in the seat stay and shock have been replaced twice.
    now the bearings in the magic link needs replacement. I also would like to upgrade the auxiliary shock to the G3 version, but kit is now nowhere to find in stock. Not even on Konas sparepart website.
    A friend cracked his CS and could not source a new one, so he bought a new Trek instead..
    I have reported all this to Brian long before the kickstarter went live. I know he have learned allot from his years with Kona. I also know he have a good reason to start his own brand. Full controle can do allot of difference when it comes to quality.
    I've been trough this before..: From the beginning there have been remarks about the numbers of pivot points. Well to get decent rear suspension you need pivots. I would have been riding a single pivot linkage bike if it could do what Tantrum is designed to give us.
    There is plenty of other good designs that have as many moving parts, but many of them have more bushings then on this bike. And the bushings on my bikes have had between half and 1/4 service compared to ballbearings. Afak the only bushings on an Tantrum is the lower shock mount which only rotate slowly a few degrees..

    I'm sure Brian can fill in som more specific details on what have been done to increase the quality compared to previous projects he have been involved in..


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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    ? At least with buying from a large manufacturer from my LBS (e.g.; Yeti), I have some comfort that if I snap my frame, there will be some assistance.

    Or am I just chasing ghosts with this concern?
    Bigger brand is no guarantee of anything. Look through the Yeti thread for the horror stories of the customer service.
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    don't know but amma gonna review it when I get mine

    -works as advertised

    -runs like dog meat

    -whatever


    I do think the worse that can happen, is the size won't be correct, but I asked
    about it and am getting the size recommended.

    setup, bars, seat, post, tune rear der, tune shock, tune fork, tire pressure is all up to me on shakedown rides, which I will do at least ten shakedown rides > 15 miles before commenting on the bike.
    This is the scary part for me. Every single test or demo ride that's been done, I've been there (and that is sofa king cool, wonder how long I can keep that up?).

    Not that I did anything. Half the time, I didn't even check the sag, just set the pressure to what works for each rider weight. I think this is even better than setting sag, because sag is very position dependent. But I digress, set the sag around 30% and go. And watch the demo riders disappear down the trail. In my defense, most of those rides I was on THEIR bike.

    But now??? They can do ANYTHING!!! Set the sag at 75% and go jumping!!!!. Come up short on doubles! Drops to flat! Leave it on the roof rack and pull into the garage!!! WTF are you doing with my bike!!?

    It'll be fun. I can't wait and I can't wait to get everyone their bikes. Again, eternal thanks to those willing to take a risk to get this off the ground.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Thank you.

    If I may ask a somewhat naive question...

    I love what Brian has done in the past with Kona. And it sounds like he has once again worked his magic (and more) with his current offerings. I am in the market for a new bike.

    I have, of late, been trying to go for the home run ball on a number of purchase decisions, and have got nothing but air, when maybe cracking a solid double down the third base line would have been a better choice. For example...straying from my trusty 2.3 DHF on my id24 rims, in favour of a WT2.5 DHF. Best of intentions to eek out an extra 5% performance, which backfired on me and set me back 30% performance-wise.

    With that kind of thing in mind (and there has been a long string of this for me), is there any concern about buying an absolutely stellar design from a craft retailer, in terms of longevity, warranty, and help in case something goes sideways 1 or 2 years down the road? Or is it a case that this bike is just so good, that nobody cares and is willing to take that chance, with the view that however long it lasts, it will be worth it? At least with buying from a large manufacturer from my LBS (e.g.; Yeti), I have some comfort that if I snap my frame, there will be some assistance.

    Or am I just chasing ghosts with this concern?
    Ah. I'm going to let you in on a little conversation Brian and I had. And yes, I just heard him flinch, because we had a lot of conversations.

    I told Brian I wanted a bike I couldn't break, but it needed to pedal well, and asked him what the odds were I was going to break this bike. We proceeded, as two engineers, to have a fairly complex and revealing discussion about Brian's design intention with the suspension and his philosophy and approach to the rest of the bike. I'm going to step out on a limb here and say this: Under normal circumstances (ie, bike properly set up, air in the shock, not on top of a car being driven into a garage, no 70kpm tree impacts) you're going to have a hard time breaking this bike, at least as far as the frame and linkages go. Bearings, if I remember correctly, are a bit Santa Cruz like in that they are fairly standard size, and you should pretty much always be able to get them from somewhere. If that's changed, I'm sure Brian will correct me, because he does tend to read basically every word of what gets posted in these threads. Which leads me to my next point.

    If you have a problem, I'm not sure there will ever be a point where, as long as Brian is involved, you won't get an answer from Tantrum. Depending on size/growth it may not always come directly from Brian, but you will get an answer. This is based on my confidence in Brian as a person. As much as we talked and have corresponded - I may not have known him for a long time, but I've got a good gut feel for him. So...I don't think you need to worry about his bike.

    I still want to talk about "vs large manufacturer" - because I have two stories about this. First, if you do something stupid with a bike, even a large manufacturer with a lifetime warranty who typically stands behind their frames (think Trek) will tell you no. Even if they tell you no in the most stand up way possible, no is still no. Then you could end up in my situation. I have a stand up local shop, and a Giant bike, which the frame keeps breaking on. And no, I'm not "abusing" it, by which I mean, I'm not using it outside it's design intentions. My shop keeps submitting the warranty claims, and Giant keeps replacing the frame. So, in theory, there's nothing wrong right? It's all sweetness and light. Except it's unspeakably frustrating to have a bike that really, you like how it rides, you go out of your way to keep your riding fairly tame on it (again, design intentions it's an XC bike) and yet the frame breaks. So, a large manufacturer is no guarantee that you won't have a problem, even if the situation is otherwise "ideal" in every way. To be clear, my issue is likely related to the fact that test mules are probably medium sized frames, and some stress isn't translating well when you turn that medium frame into an XL. And you say, surely Giant's engineers would catch that, right? Sure. Brian himself will tell you there's no way something like that would ever slip past an engineer.....EVER!

  30. #130
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    I'll certainly be honest in my review. I own several bikes, all of different designs, and I'm a suspension geek engineer. The reason I signed up for Brian's bike is because it appears to be the first real change in suspension in a long time, and the reviews all indicated that it will suit my riding and region quite well. It will also be my first 29er (owned, I've ridden several) and, potentially, 27.5er (ditto).

    Brian doesn't seem like the kind of guy who is going to disappear once the bikes are out there. I'm looking forward to ownership and riding it.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Bigger brand is no guarantee of anything. Look through the Yeti thread for the horror stories of the customer service.
    If you look at all of the recent discussions on Yeti service they are exceptional. I can say the same for Pivot Cycles as well.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgandrews87 View Post
    If you look at all of the recent discussions on Yeti service they are exceptional. I can say the same for Pivot Cycles as well.
    Glad you're happy with it, I tend to wait a little longer after really bad CS before deciding it's a trend that will continue.
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  33. #133
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    Thanks guys for the responses. I have no doubt about Brian's integrity, or about the sheer awesomeness of his products. I hope my inquiry did not come across offensively.

    In terms of post-purchase problems, I don't care as much about the manufacturer as I do about my LBS. I KNOW that no matter what, my LBS will take care of me in a bad situation.

    Anyway, I did not mean to detract from the excitement. I am trying to weigh all options myself and like I say, I have had a string of bad decisions when I have strayed a little from the mainstream/obvious choices.

    Thanks again guys. And Brian - well done. I wish you nothing but success and all the accolades you rightfully deserve.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishwrinkle View Post
    sounds like you'd be an honest owner/tester, but there are many who won't due to the fact they don't want to feel like they just lost a fistful of $$$
    One thing that gives me confidence is, many of first batch buyers were also demo riders. And on their own trails. So they pretty much know what their getting. As I mentioned before, I have been on every single demo ride and I kept waiting for somebody to hate the bike in some way. Find that one annoying trait that I overlooked.

    I even went on a demo ride with a customer that already bought on Kickstarter. Potentially lose/lose for me if he cancelled his order and gave a bad review. Instead, he's just changed his mind on color 4 times.....

    The bike has been tested and demoed from the east to the west and everything in between. By riders ranging from 260 lb to 125 lb.

    It may not be perfect, but I've put a lot of effort into not bullshitting myself about its performance. I try not to come in and shake up the mountain bike world with an empty shaker, or some such goofy analogy.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishwrinkle View Post
    take a xanax and chill.
    does that really work?

  36. #136
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    I thought the majority on your continent have agreed well balanced medical weed are a better option then synthetic pills like xanax?

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  37. #137
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    This is me after this bike was announced here in MTBR, saw RC review, and I saw the first few videos/tech info on BB's site, and finally after reading reviews of the AbraCadabra

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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Thanks guys for the responses. I have no doubt about Brian's integrity, or about the sheer awesomeness of his products. I hope my inquiry did not come across offensively.

    In terms of post-purchase problems, I don't care as much about the manufacturer as I do about my LBS. I KNOW that no matter what, my LBS will take care of me in a bad situation.

    Anyway, I did not mean to detract from the excitement. I am trying to weigh all options myself and like I say, I have had a string of bad decisions when I have strayed a little from the mainstream/obvious choices.

    Thanks again guys. And Brian - well done. I wish you nothing but success and all the accolades you rightfully deserve.
    Hi Mike, thanks for the consideration. I wanted to give you a few thoughts about how I view this going forward.

    The bikes will break. Some of it will be from flat drops, cased jumps, garages. Some, maybe a bad weld? And some of it will be because some of you guys, though a combination of weight, riding skill and terrain, will put it through just a little bit more than it's built for.

    It's a tough balance, you design a bike with near DH speed capability, but can't afford to add DH frame weight. The saving grace is that a DH bike's duty cycle is almost relentlessly, 100% brutal. We save weight where we can, minimize stress concentrations and off we go.

    As for backing the product, anybody that buys one of these early bikes should look at it like this: like walking down the street to your local frame builder. This is a custom designed, hand made, hand assembled (by me), low production frame. I do not have the resources of the big (or even the little) guys. I am not making 500 more than I will sell.

    There will be evolutionary changes and improvements. To some degree, the modularity of the design will allow some upgrading. For example, I plan to introduce a 180 mm kit next year that is retrofitable to existing frames.

    If a customer needs a replacement for an obsolete, no longer available part, I'm sure there would be something acceptable we can work out. Because at the moment, that's the bottom line. It's just me. Knock on wood, I could get hit by a truck tomorrow and you're all SOL. Luckily, there are no trucks running thru my shop.

    But it also means I don't have to clear anything with a board of directors, or management team or bean counters. And I've always been a pretty crappy bean counter myself. I want happy customers. That will spread the word and make sure I can continue, because this is what I'm doing until I ride of into the sunset with my blues band....

    That's why I'm doing this. I want people to be able to ride and enjoy my work. Am I in it for the money? I'm pretty sure, money will follow. But I am not worried about paying my rent with the profit margin from these first bikes. Or the next batch.

    I want steal a local gunship's famous tag line (thanks Don's guns); I'm not in it to make money, I just like to sell bikes. Ironically, Don was shot in his own gun store by a disgruntled customer......

    Whatever the longterm end game may be, This is what I've dedicated a large portion of my life and engineering thought to. It's a fantastic, once in a lifetime opportunity to have a blast, shake up the market and give people some enjoyment. I will see it through.

    Did I mention that I am now a professional mountain biker?? Bonus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi Mike, thanks for the consideration. I wanted to give you a few thoughts about how I view this going forward.

    The bikes will break. Some of it will be from flat drops, cased jumps, garages. Some, maybe a bad weld? And some of it will be because some of you guys, though a combination of weight, riding skill and terrain, will put it through just a little bit more than it's built for.

    It's a tough balance, you design a bike with near DH speed capability, but can't afford to add DH frame weight. The saving grace is that a DH bike's duty cycle is almost relentlessly, 100% brutal. We save weight where we can, minimize stress concentrations and off we go.

    As for backing the product, anybody that buys one of these early bikes should look at it like this: like walking down the street to your local frame builder. This is a custom designed, hand made, hand assembled (by me), low production frame. I do not have the resources of the big (or even the little) guys. I am not making 500 more than I will sell.

    There will be evolutionary changes and improvements. To some degree, the modularity of the design will allow some upgrading. For example, I plan to introduce a 180 mm kit next year that is retrofitable to existing frames.

    If a customer needs a replacement for an obsolete, no longer available part, I'm sure there would be something acceptable we can work out. Because at the moment, that's the bottom line. It's just me. Knock on wood, I could get hit by a truck tomorrow and you're all SOL. Luckily, there are no trucks running thru my shop.

    But it also means I don't have to clear anything with a board of directors, or management team or bean counters. And I've always been a pretty crappy bean counter myself. I want happy customers. That will spread the word and make sure I can continue, because this is what I'm doing until I ride of into the sunset with my blues band....

    That's why I'm doing this. I want people to be able to ride and enjoy my work. Am I in it for the money? I'm pretty sure, money will follow. But I am not worried about paying my rent with the profit margin from these first bikes. Or the next batch.

    I want steal a local gunship's famous tag line (thanks Don's guns); I'm not in it to make money, I just like to sell bikes. Ironically, Don was shot in his own gun store by a disgruntled customer......

    Whatever the longterm end game may be, This is what I've dedicated a large portion of my life and engineering thought to. It's a fantastic, once in a lifetime opportunity to have a blast, shake up the market and give people some enjoyment. I will see it through.

    Did I mention that I am now a professional mountain biker?? Bonus.
    I am so sorry I put you to the trouble of typing all that. That said, I very much appreciate it. Hopefully others who might have been wondering the same thing will be equally relieved by your candid and helpful response.

    I am well familiar with your work with Kona and consider it nothing short of a privilege to be able to communicate with you. Thank you for your incredible accessibility, transparency and honesty.

    I know your products are amazing. I have absolutely no doubt. And I have no reason to believe anything will go sideways on me. I try to charge as hard as I can, but I seem to be very light on my bike, relative to some of my buddies.

    Thank you again Sir. Very much appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I am so sorry I put you to the trouble of typing all that. That said, I very much appreciate it. Hopefully others who might have been wondering the same thing will be equally relieved by your candid and helpful response.

    I am well familiar with your work with Kona and consider it nothing short of a privilege to be able to communicate with you. Thank you for your incredible accessibility, transparency and honesty.

    I know your products are amazing. I have absolutely no doubt. And I have no reason to believe anything will go sideways on me. I try to charge as hard as I can, but I seem to be very light on my bike, relative to some of my buddies.

    Thank you again Sir. Very much appreciated.

    You are putting me thru the trouble of talking about the joy of my life. Is it trouble to ask parents about their kids?

    The coolest thing about this adventure so far? It's the community involvement. This IS personal and it's been with the help and support of the mtb community that I've been able to do this. Hell, that I even thought I COULD do this.

    I really like it. If i could do a demo tour and go riding with all of my customers.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    You are putting me thru the trouble of talking about the joy of my life. Is it trouble to ask parents about their kids?

    The coolest thing about this adventure so far? It's the community involvement. This IS personal and it's been with the help and support of the mtb community that I've been able to do this. Hell, that I even thought I COULD do this.

    I really like it. If i could do a demo tour and go riding with all of my customers.......
    You don't plan on being in western Canada any time soon, do you?

    PS - it's so very rare to run across people who have been fortunate enough to marry their passion with their livelihood. Congratulations. Sounds like you truly are livin' the dream.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I really like it. If i could do a demo tour and go riding with all of my customers.......
    If you find yourself in the Detroit metro area, I'll gladly ride with you! We have more fun trails than people think.

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    I am obviously very late to the party. I assume I am no longer able to get in on this action. Is that correct?

    If I AM too late, when will these bikes be available to the general public?

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I thought the majority on your continent have agreed well balanced medical weed are a better option then synthetic pills like xanax?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    other than the fact we just declared a national emergency due to synthetic heroin pushed by all the legal drug companies......back to bikes....

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    You don't plan on being in western Canada any time soon, do you?

    PS - it's so very rare to run across people who have been fortunate enough to marry their passion with their livelihood. Congratulations. Sounds like you truly are livin' the dream.
    on a late nite frame prep break. Might as well talk bikes. Mess up the weird weekend spam.

    I love some riding in western Canada. In the bad old days with the big K, I was lucky enough to hit the north shore a bit, as well as squamish and whistler. While all primary devo of the magic link bikes took place right here in the mountains of Indiana, proving grounds were readily available up there, not to mention a great riding crew. Miss and love you guys.

    Any time soon? I think, the rest of the good weather in 2017 will be on the eastern part of the U.S., as I have neglected that area a bit (due to weather). Even at that, it'll be mostly after interbike, so Sept, Oct, maybe a little Nov, before I have to go out west again.

    Living the dream? I guess. I decided before college (after air force) that I was gonna go racin'. I had one kid and another on the way and told myself to get my shit together. While it hasn't always gone my way, I'm pretty comfortable with what I've done, the effort and results I achieved and the fact that every singe minute of my professional career (of well over several days) has been racing and playing with toys. And pretty happy that I switched to bikes full time about ten years ago (although, Ferrari F1, you have my number if Mercedes starts to get too strong, Merc, same to you).

    Right now, my dream is to mess some people up in the bike industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    If you find yourself in the Detroit metro area, I'll gladly ride with you! We have more fun trails than people think.
    Detroit's about a 5 hr drive. In the old days of the Michigan 500 (and Detroit GP), I would alsways bring a bike and ride Potowatami. I'm pretty sure I ended up in Hell on that ride. Nice little town.

    Round up some demo riders.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Right now, my dream is to mess some people up in the bike industry.
    Love this quote. Best of luck. Maybe my next bike.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Detroit's about a 5 hr drive. In the old days of the Michigan 500 (and Detroit GP), I would alsways bring a bike and ride Potowatami. I'm pretty sure I ended up in Hell on that ride. Nice little town.

    Round up some demo riders.
    You absolutely did end up in Hell on that ride. Poto's not far from it at all. First time I tried Poto, we got lost and had to ride the roads back, which I recognized from my motorcycle riding in that area. Poto's one of our best, and I'd say most of the trails here seem very suited to what I think your bike will be.

    I have a group of riders that have all been hearing me talk about your bike. I'm sure we can scare up some folks, plus we have the very active MMBA forum.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The bikes will break. Some of it will be from flat drops, cased jumps, garages. Some, maybe a bad weld? And some of it will be because some of you guys, though a combination of weight, riding skill and terrain, will put it through just a little bit more than it's built for.
    Just had a thought. If the design is proven successful and desirable other manufacturers may want to use it. If the licence included a stipulation that the links and pivot points etc have to be the same as the Tantrum bikes you could have a situation where people could use suspension and frame elements from different manufacturers on their bikes.

  50. #150
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    brian come on up to poto again for the triple trail challenge, 50+ miles of love/hate. would love to demo your bike, it's sept 16th. if you don't wanna ride my nimble 9 rigid ss i recommend bringing 2 bikes, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMR View Post
    Love this quote. Best of luck. Maybe my next bike.
    thank you. Of course, I didn't mean physically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    You absolutely did end up in Hell on that ride. Poto's not far from it at all. First time I tried Poto, we got lost and had to ride the roads back, which I recognized from my motorcycle riding in that area. Poto's one of our best, and I'd say most of the trails here seem very suited to what I think your bike will be.

    I have a group of riders that have all been hearing me talk about your bike. I'm sure we can scare up some folks, plus we have the very active MMBA forum.
    I'm pretty sure I got lost more than once on Poto. this was before gps and dare I say it, cell phones. Just head out down the trail......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Just had a thought. If the design is proven successful and desirable other manufacturers may want to use it. If the licence included a stipulation that the links and pivot points etc have to be the same as the Tantrum bikes you could have a situation where people could use suspension and frame elements from different manufacturers on their bikes.
    This is certainly a possibility on the horizon. The beauty of Tantrum for me is, I am not dependent on any of that to get my bikes out there. That is the best possible reason for starting my bike company. If there is a market and apparently there is, I can fill it without worrying about the whims of a product manager or in house engineer.

    I think, once this initial batch is released, the "industry" will be watching to see what happens.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    thank you. Of course, I didn't mean physically.
    Well that's disappointing. I was expecting to see some serious old school ass kicking take place. Lol.

    Brian - can you let me know re availability per my post above? PM me if you wish. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishwrinkle View Post
    brian come on up to poto again for the triple trail challenge, 50+ miles of love/hate. would love to demo your bike, it's sept 16th. if you don't wanna ride my nimble 9 rigid ss i recommend bringing 2 bikes, lol.
    that sounds like fun. I would need a long rest in the middle. Or 2. Or a tow. Or a body double. Did you mean all at once?

    But, I will be thrashing for Interbike, which is the following week. I'll have a booth for the first time in 10 years, since I stopped having a Brake Therapy booth. This is a much better reason.....

    After that? I'll still be thrashing, but that would be the time, some time in Oct.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Well that's disappointing. I was expecting to see some serious old school ass kicking take place. Lol.

    Brian - can you let me know re availability per my post above? PM me if you wish. Thanks.
    I generally prefer the "run away" style of fighting. Sometimes a good bluff will do, I have been known to look a little crazy. Use your strength.

    I thought I answered the availability in my head, but it was in another thread:

    Basically, I stopped taking orders or deposits in the spring. The incoming batch was more or less sold out and I didn't want the obligation of taking peoples money and having them wait for bikes. That is the worst part of this kickstarter deal.

    There is another batch of 100 frames in the works. I won't conjecture a delivery on these yet, having been burned a little on this batch, but it won't take as long as this batch. Many lessons learned.

    Once I deliver these and get the next batch sorted, I will make an announcement and start taking pre-orders.

    b

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    This is certainly a possibility on the horizon. The beauty of Tantrum for me is, I am not dependent on any of that to get my bikes out there.
    What I was thinking is that if all the bikes using the system had interchangeable parts it might take the heat off in future as people would be able to use a part from any brand on their bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    What I was thinking is that if all the bikes using the system had interchangeable parts it might take the heat off in future as people would be able to use a part from any brand on their bike.
    I would imagine the secret sauce (the pivot point centers and relation to each other) will be identical (or it will run like crud) but each maker will have different width of the linkage endpoints and also types and size of bearing (or ...gasp...bushing) unless the patent requires exact dimensions of those parts
    "Eating Spam, and Oreos, and drinking Thunderbird, baby" -Baby Huey/James Ramey

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ..but each maker will have different width of the linkage endpoints and also types and size of bearing unless the patent requires exact dimensions of those parts
    I meant that it should, or could.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I would imagine the secret sauce (the pivot point centers and relation to each other) will be identical (or it will run like crud) but each maker will have different width of the linkage endpoints and also types and size of bearing (or ...gasp...bushing) unless the patent requires exact dimensions of those parts
    More the reality is that they will want the parts to look different. Even if the pivots points are 100% exactly the same, each brand will want to be visually different.

    So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for interchangeability between brands. We're lucky if we can swap wheels.

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    More the reality is that they will want the parts to look different. Even if the pivots points are 100% exactly the same, each brand will want to be visually different.

    So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for interchangeability between brands. We're lucky if we can swap wheels.
    Brian,

    I hate to be the one tho break into the pure joy of new bikes being delivered, but does your business strategy include responses to the inevitable patent violations? Or worse yet, a patent violator who turns around & sues you for the violation with the expectation you can't afford the defense? Many examples of this going down in the bike industry & elsewhere.

    I don't expect you to reveal a strategy - just a simple "Got it covered" will suffice.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by burtronix View Post
    Does your business strategy include responses to the inevitable patent violations?
    One good thing is that the design is very distinctive and unambiguous. It does something that no other configuration does and something that can easily and clearly be defined and explained to a layman. I reckon it'll stand up in court very well.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    One good thing is that the design is very distinctive and unambiguous. It does something that no other configuration does and something that can easily and clearly be defined and explained to a layman. I reckon it'll stand up in court very well.
    Agreed, but it still takes competent patent counsel & somewhat of a war-chest to press or defend a case, even when the case is clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burtronix View Post
    Brian,

    I hate to be the one tho break into the pure joy of new bikes being delivered, but does your business strategy include responses to the inevitable patent violations? Or worse yet, a patent violator who turns around & sues you for the violation with the expectation you can't afford the defense? Many examples of this going down in the bike industry & elsewhere.

    I don't expect you to reveal a strategy - just a simple "Got it covered" will suffice.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    burtronix....you may or may not have read my earlier comment about "messing up/with the bike industry". It would not be completely unexpected if there might be some reciprocal sentiment. Nothing in particular, mind you, but as you mentioned, it does happen.

    My strategy?

    1) Very early public disclosure. In the new age of "first to file", it's kinda hard for somebody to say they beat you to it.....

    2) strong patents. U,S. and EU. Don't mess with me patents.

    3) License, don't litigate. Let's make a deal. Cheaper than lawyer fees.

    4) Come at me. I'm old and mean. And I have no money for you to win.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    One good thing is that the design is very distinctive and unambiguous. It does something that no other configuration does and something that can easily and clearly be defined and explained to a layman. I reckon it'll stand up in court very well.
    This for sure. Unambiguous.That's a definite strength if a company is trying to win via subterfuge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burtronix View Post
    Agreed, but it still takes competent patent counsel & somewhat of a war-chest to press or defend a case, even when the case is clear.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    I am also a veteran of patent wars. Not that I've been to court, but peripherally. I was involved in writing the early inertia valve patents in '92, that were eventually licensed to Stratos (long after my involvement). It did not end well for Stratos.

    It does help when you've been around this particularly nasty block a few times.

    In this era, I would also mount a social media campaign. Funny how that has possibly become more powerful than law, but public perception of a luxury item (like the bikes we ride, right????) holds sway. We've seen it be effective in potentially unfair trademark disputes, I'd give it a shot if I felt Big Bike was coming after me.

    But I'm not that paranoid. Just sellin my bikes.....

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