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  1. #1
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    Prophet 400 or Heckler

    Hello all. I am deciding (more like racking my brain) between a Prophet 400 with a Marzzachi AM 3 fork. Manitue Radium rear w/ lockout. SRAM X-7 drivetrain at $1,300.

    Or a Santa Cruz Heckler with 2007 Fox Vanilla RLC fork , Fox Float R rear, Deore shifters.Rear Der Shimano XT, at $1,900. I know the Heckler has a great reputation, but my dilema is it $600 better than the Prophet. Any opinions and experiences with either bike would rule.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    heckler

    I'd go with the heckler. Although both bikes are good the heckler stands out to me.
    The fox's together are great. But if your concernd about money prophet is not a loss.
    THE CAL

  3. #3
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    Not really a fair fight. The Prophet is a great choice at it's price point, and the heckler is also. Should you spend the extra $? Depends what kind of trails you ride, how you ride them, and how much $ you have. If your a pricy attorney making $400/ hour, no contest, get the heckler. If your a student living on ramon noodles and blood donations, get the prophet. Both will ride well. Personally, I like the Heckler.
    I call for a mandate to allow only road bikes on trails to limit our speeds and increase our line picking skills-FB

  4. #4
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    Go with the prophet 400. IMO the frame is a much better design, well worth upgrading. Remember, all SC single pivot bikes are made in china....that is why they are so cheap. All the big "c" bikes ( except the plastic ones) are made in PA.....If that matters to you.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the replies. I will be riding mostly rooty, rocky north eastern trails pretty aggressively, but no crazy jumps. I do not have much experiance with different bikes and suspensions. The Prophet felt light and the lock out rear shock was cool. I have yet to ride the Heckler on the trail but I know I won't be disapointed. My gut tells me the Heckler is the bike but money is a bit of an issue.( Unless my wife doesn't find out I spent the extra $600 on the Heckler) Thanks again, Great forum!!!!

  6. #6
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    The Prophet frame with out the rear shock weighs in at 5.25 Lbs. How does that compare to other all mountain bikes?

  7. #7
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    The Prophet is nice but it feels really streched out and (maybe just for me) a little unstable. The Heckler is light, and fun, and flickable, and worth the extra money.

    P.S. The Heckler is made in Taiwan and there made well.
    Orange Heckler

    Blue Pinscher

  8. #8
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    Heckler is what I chose...

    ...after riding both. The Prophet is a nice ride and probably can be built a wee bit lighter. I am still not a fan of the Lefty. The Prophet felt kinda whippy and not as planted as the Heckler, but I am big guy and a aggressive rider. I ride the same terrain as you, so consider your size, riding style, and what you would buy if money were no object. I have my Heckler built up on the Freeride-side of the All Mountain Pantheon; with pretty stout components it weighs in around 35 lbs. I weigh over 235 lbs so this is light compared to my old full-suspension which was a porky 46 lbs and my hardtail at 40 lbs.

    Bottom line, both are great bikes that you will have a blast on. Consider the aforementioned factors and go for it.

  9. #9
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    Heckler is made out of round tubing....the prophet frame has non round tubing that is arranged to be stiffer and stronger. The Sc has the cool factor, but the prophet is a stronger frame. I have seen several heckler's with torn off head tobes( not the frames falt, some clowns like to hang 6-7 inch forks on them), If you brake a Prophet's front triangle, you have done something.....

  10. #10
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    I'd have to say go for the Prophet. Of course I'm a little biased as I own one. The Prophet has a great frame design, very strong. Also your really have two bikes in one with the Prophet as you can switch between FR/XC mode via the rear shock mount on the swingarm. The Prophet just rides really well too, and is very controllable/flickable once you get used to it. Dont forget it's made in the USA, I dont know about you but I'd rather have a bike thats made here in the states rather than Taiwan.
    Remember, "We're not here for a long time, we're here for a good time".-D.Ritchie

  11. #11
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    What would push me towards the Heckler is the fork and shock. My brother has a prophet with a radium on it and it makes for too harsh of a ride. I really liked the vanilla fork I had, but I don't know how the am3 compares. If I were to buy that prophet I would immediately upgrade the rear shock. You could do that and still come out ahead if you bought he prophet.

  12. #12
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    Interesting comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by MUSTCLIME
    Heckler is made out of round tubing....the prophet frame has non round tubing that is arranged to be stiffer and stronger. The Sc has the cool factor, but the prophet is a stronger frame. I have seen several heckler's with torn off head tobes( not the frames falt, some clowns like to hang 6-7 inch forks on them), If you brake a Prophet's front triangle, you have done something.....

    I used to own a Heckler and it is STRONG like bull. I weigh well over 200lbs and never had a problem with my Heckler. I have seen hundreds of Hecklers and have been monitoring the SC Forum for a few years now, and I have NEVER witnessed or have seen pictures of a headtube that has been sheared off of the Heckler. A few broken swingarms yes, but head tubes, not yet.

    SC even recommends not using deep insert headsets on the Heckler because the Head tube is over built.

    As for the "Clowns" hanging 6-7" forks off a Heckler???? Go to the SC forum and post this. There are MANY Heckler riders using sc 6" forks and even 7" DC forks on the Heckler with no problems at all. Hell, 6" forks have become the norm on a Heckler, not the exception.

    As for stiffness, this is a toss up. There is noticeable rear end flex on the Prophet and a little flex in the rear of the Heckler as well.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    I used to own a Heckler and it is STRONG like bull. I weigh well over 200lbs and never had a problem with my Heckler. I have seen hundreds of Hecklers and have been monitoring the SC Forum for a few years now, and I have NEVER witnessed or have seen pictures of a headtube that has been sheared off of the Heckler. A few broken swingarms yes, but head tubes, not yet.

    SC even recommends not using deep insert headsets on the Heckler because the Head tube is over built.

    As for the "Clowns" hanging 6-7" forks off a Heckler???? Go to the SC forum and post this. There are MANY Heckler riders using sc 6" forks and even 7" DC forks on the Heckler with no problems at all. Hell, 6" forks have become the norm on a Heckler, not the exception.

    As for stiffness, this is a toss up. There is noticeable rear end flex on the Prophet and a little flex in the rear of the Heckler as well.

    I am a 240lbs aggressive rider and I ride the piss out of my Hekler with no worries at all. The frame is solid and can take anything you can dish out. I've never seen a headtube ripped off a Heckler and living in the Bay Area, there are a lot of Hecklers and Santa Cruz bikes in general around here.

    I was running a Z1FR1 which has 150mm of travel and it was a great fork. I just upgraded to a Fox 36 Vanilla and I am in Heaven. I can't believe what an amazing fork the 36 Vanilla is. It weight exactly the same as the Z1FR1, right down to the gram and it has 163mm of travel instead of 150.

    If you look at the Santa Cruz site the Heckler is built to take up to a 180mm fork.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67degrees
    \If you look at the Santa Cruz site the Heckler is built to take up to a 180mm fork.
    That sounds like the Nomad your thinking of... but the Heckler can take a 160mm fork
    Orange Heckler

    Blue Pinscher

  15. #15
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    The Heckler can take a 170mm DC fork too.

    Quote Originally Posted by R1D3R
    That sounds like the Nomad your thinking of... but the Heckler can take a 160mm fork

  16. #16
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    Heckler fork length?

    I might be mistaken. It is not uncommon to see Hecklers with Boxxers and Super T's and they work great.

    I just put a Fox 36 Vanilla with 160mm of travel and it is wicked!!!!

  17. #17
    LA CHÈVRE
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    - The Prophet has a lifetime warranty.

    - The prohet really climbs like a xc race bike in XC mode and desends like a freeride bike in FR mode.

    - The Prophet can use a OnePointFive fork.

    I guess it shows that I have a Prophet myself. Like someone pointed out, the Radium rear shock is not the best thing out there but can be upgraded down the road (or should I say 'down the trail').

    What I find odd is that one of the first reason I ride Cannondales and push people to it, is because of the Lefty. I trully believe the Lefty is a much superior design to anything else out there. The Lefty Max 140 is below 4 pounds but is plush, strong and stiff as a downhill or freeride fork! Just less travel. The bolt-on front wheel helps but the inside of the Lefty (and Headshoks) really make these things laterally, torsionally and longitudinally way stiffer than regular forks. These things steer with the precision of a world-class surgeon!

    With all that said, the Santa Cruz is also a nice bike, I just feel the Prophet is as good if not better but also a much better value.

    DAN.GEROUS.NET : MOUNTAIN BIKING : CYCLOCROSS : ROAD :

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1D3R
    That sounds like the Nomad your thinking of... but the Heckler can take a 160mm fork
    Sorry if I offened the heckler riders running BIG forks. I ride a lot at diablo freeridepark and that is where I have seen the broken hecklers. The problem with diablo is like most of nj, it is 3 inched of topsoil ontop of a pile of rocks.....In diablo's case, big stinking, unmoveable rocks......to make a long story short.....heckler frame + big fat downhiller + big sticking unmoveable rock + big fork + speed = snap.....
    On a side note, I have never seen as many broken frames as I have seen at diablo....
    The bike is never to heavy, you are just to WEAK!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboWabo
    Hello all. I am deciding (more like racking my brain) between a Prophet 400 with a Marzzachi AM 3 fork. Manitue Radium rear w/ lockout. SRAM X-7 drivetrain at $1,300.

    Or a Santa Cruz Heckler with 2007 Fox Vanilla RLC fork , Fox Float R rear, Deore shifters.Rear Der Shimano XT, at $1,900. I know the Heckler has a great reputation, but my dilema is it $600 better than the Prophet. Any opinions and experiences with either bike would rule.

    Thanks
    Where are you getting the Heckler for $1900 with that config? I'm interested in purchasing one.

  20. #20
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    So the P400 is $1400 VS a $1900 bike? Hows bout a Prophet 600 or 800??

    You will like the way the Lefty rides, I bet...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    So the P400 is $1400 VS a $1900 bike? Hows bout a Prophet 600 or 800??

    You will like the way the Lefty rides, I bet...
    What is the advantage to the Lefty? It looks unbalanced/freaky to me, although I'm sure it's not.

  22. #22
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    I'm sure someone with more than a year on one will chime in...Lightwieght, Stiff, excellent tracking....
    Not unbalanced, but it sure is easy to make a 'joke' about on the trail...
    Still two local guys rode mine a little bit and did say how they liked the way the fork felt...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    So the P400 is $1400 VS a $1900 bike? Hows bout a Prophet 600 or 800??

    You will like the way the Lefty rides, I bet...
    I took a demo 600 out for a day on the trail. The bike is real nice. The lefty to me was very strong and light, but almost to light in the front. The Radium R is stiff. I am concidering the bike, but cant say the lefty blew me away.In fairness to the lefty fork I dont have a lot of experience with different forks so not fair evaluation from me.

  24. #24
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    santa cruz, taiwan

  25. #25
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    Well,
    You will likely need the warrantee on the Prophet. I have yet to know ONE SINGLE Cannondale owner that has NOT broken their frame. Some not once, not twice, but THREE times! You will not break a Heckler no how no way and it will behave as well or better than the Prophet. Just because the Prophet is handmade in the U.S that does not mean you get quality. A racer I know had a ton of welding beads in his frame when he got it. This was not an isolated incident. I am not saying Cannondale sucks. Quite the contrary. I like them and I know a lot of riders on them. However, they break a LOT. Did you know you cannot ride a lefty in the wet without worry of devastation? Don't ride through a stream with one. Forget that jazz. Is SC the best company out there? NO!! My first new gen Heckler was welded off center. This was not remedied the first time I sent it back. It took two trips back to Santa Cruz. Was I happy about that? No. Would I ride a Cannondale with a no questions asked warrantee? NO! They are both good bikes. The Heckler is far more versatile. BTW, it would last far longer at Diablo than a Prophet, but lets face it, neither bike is really made for that.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25
    Well,
    You will likely need the warrantee on the Prophet. I have yet to know ONE SINGLE Cannondale owner that has NOT broken their frame. Some not once, not twice, but THREE times! You will not break a Heckler no how no way and it will behave as well or better than the Prophet. Just because the Prophet is handmade in the U.S that does not mean you get quality. A racer I know had a ton of welding beads in his frame when he got it. This was not an isolated incident. I am not saying Cannondale sucks. Quite the contrary. I like them and I know a lot of riders on them. However, they break a LOT. Did you know you cannot ride a lefty in the wet without worry of devastation? Don't ride through a stream with one. Forget that jazz. Is SC the best company out there? NO!! My first new gen Heckler was welded off center. This was not remedied the first time I sent it back. It took two trips back to Santa Cruz. Was I happy about that? No. Would I ride a Cannondale with a no questions asked warrantee? NO! They are both good bikes. The Heckler is far more versatile. BTW, it would last far longer at Diablo than a Prophet, but lets face it, neither bike is really made for that.
    You haven't seen a Cannondale in a while do you indyfab25? The old stereotypes from back when Cannondale were almost the only ones making Aluminium frames... I have 2 Cannondales, beat them up quite good, ride through streams and play in deep mud... I know many Cannondale owners and the only cases of frame breakage I have witnessed myself was because a Prophet and a Jekyll were on a trunk mounted rack and the car got hit from behind hard by a SUV.

    The reason you may see more Cannondale breaking than Santa Cruz is just because there are a lot more Cannondale bikes out there, in proportion, I'm sure one company is not better or worse than the other.

    DAN.GEROUS.NET : MOUNTAIN BIKING : CYCLOCROSS : ROAD :

  27. #27
    Got A Lust for Life...
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    You haven't seen a Cannondale in a while do you indyfab25?
    Wrongo! I am around them enough to see leftys don't seem to last very long, and that they come with an advisory to not submerge them. C'dale does make great bikes. They need a great warrantee. There is still no refuting that.

    [/QUOTE]The old stereotypes from back when Cannondale were almost the only ones making Aluminium frames... I have 2 Cannondales, beat them up quite good, ride through streams and play in deep mud... I know many Cannondale owners and the only cases of frame breakage I have witnessed myself was because a Prophet and a Jekyll were on a trunk mounted rack and the car got hit from behind hard by a SUV.[/QUOTE]

    The heckler has a rep for being tough because it has been flogged to hell and back. Read my post again, I talked about the good and bad of both. I am not saying the Heckler is the end all of bikes. If you want that, head to the SC forum. I am not on my knees for SC.

    [/QUOTE]The reason you may see more Cannondale breaking than Santa Cruz is just because there are a lot more Cannondale bikes out there, in proportion, I'm sure one company is not better or worse than the other.[/QUOTE]

    While the Prophet is a cool ride(I rode one the other day, felt solid) it will not hold a candle in the arena of toughness to the heckler....if you can get one with the right alignment....it took me three tries.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    You haven't seen a Cannondale in a while do you indyfab25? The old stereotypes from back when Cannondale were almost the only ones making Aluminium frames... I have 2 Cannondales, beat them up quite good, ride through streams and play in deep mud... I know many Cannondale owners and the only cases of frame breakage I have witnessed myself was because a Prophet and a Jekyll were on a trunk mounted rack and the car got hit from behind hard by a SUV.

    The reason you may see more Cannondale breaking than Santa Cruz is just because there are a lot more Cannondale bikes out there, in proportion, I'm sure one company is not better or worse than the other.
    The Prophet frame seems to be quite durable. The lefty on the other hand, is not. These forks do work well in regards to tracking and plushness, but seem to need more work down the line than most other forks on the market. The lefty needs a lot of propietary Cannondale parts as well.

    As far as frame breakage goes, it is hard to say. I have owned both a Gemini and Heckler, without personally seeing either brand break. All bikes break and I have heard of the odd Heckler swing arm breaking. Same with the Prophet. Where I live, there is more SC bikes on the trails as well. At least from what I have seen myself anyways.

    I recommend the Prophet MX line, if a rider wants to throw around a Prophet.

  29. #29
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    All I can add to the post is what I know from riding my heckler. I've never ridden a Prophet but I'm shur you'll be really happy with the heckler. I've got mine set up pretty darn beefy right now with RC Pike sl and fox DHX 5.0 in back. With a 110mm stem and clip less pedals I can out climb most. With a 70mm stem I get a real nice feel for jumping and free ride. Now a 37 pound bike ant gonna out climb a hard tail XC rig but it takes 6ft drops like butter! I can't imagine the head tube on a heckler breaking off under all but the most extreme circumstances (i.e. plowing head first into a wall at 40mph with a 250 something pound rider) even then the the fork would likely be the first to die way before the frame would.

  30. #30
    rock hard or hardrock
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    you should save and get the prophet 600 cuz of the lefty those things are the best
    www.transitionbikes.com

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  31. #31
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    Owned both frames....

    Quote Originally Posted by CaboWabo
    Hello all. I am deciding (more like racking my brain) between a Prophet 400 with a Marzzachi AM 3 fork. Manitue Radium rear w/ lockout. SRAM X-7 drivetrain at $1,300.

    Or a Santa Cruz Heckler with 2007 Fox Vanilla RLC fork , Fox Float R rear, Deore shifters.Rear Der Shimano XT, at $1,900. I know the Heckler has a great reputation, but my dilema is it $600 better than the Prophet. Any opinions and experiences with either bike would rule.

    Thanks
    Currently I'm on a Prophet and like it a lot. I had a Heckler for about a year, bought it 3 years ago, then sold it a year later. That was a nice frame as well. I don't think you could go wrong with either as both are great bikes.

    My problem with the Heckler was the TT length on the large. It was too cramped and made me sit too upright. Otherwise it was great bike. SC has very well thought out frame touches like cable routing where Canondale has no clue. The rear end on the Heckler seem a bit more flexy than the Prophet, though over all the Heckler seemed to be a much more durable bike. The Heckler seemed to be more on the heavy duty end of AM riding. However, I just don't see why SC continues to spec it with a non-TA fork. A Pike would be perfect for a Heckler.

    The Prophet is suprisingly lightweight and climbs better than the Heckler. You don't get something for nothing and I do occasionally worry that a 5.5# AM frame won't last. But hey, there's a warantee. The rear end seems stiffer on the Prophet. Mine is built up with a Pike in the front and is a very capable bike at both ends of the AM spectrum. I have litte trouble keeping up on the xc rides as long as there's not much fire road riding. The frame is very light, which is a good thing as I use it more on the trailbike end of the AM spectrum.

    My recommendations would be if you want to focus more on the hucking end of AM go with the Heckler. If you value a lighter, faster build go with the Prophet.

    BTW, my comments don't factor in the bulid kits. I'm talking about the frames only. Fork-wise, go with a Pike. Light, cheap, durable.

    Mike

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