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  1. #1
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    The Problem with "All Mountain"

    I think that some of the posters you guys refer to as "trolls" only want to be recognized as doing and being "all mountain" 10-20 years ago. Some of them might have a point as xc and all mountain really are the same thing. It depends more on riding ability than it does type of bike. If you want to call yourselves all mountain, who am I to say you can't.

    BUT...I think there is a problem.

    In my opinion there are a lot of riders who purchase these bikes that do not have the skills to control them properly. These bikes allow the inexperienced rider to go much too fast for their ability level. That in turn causes them to skid, which only creates stutter bumps and further damages the trail. The lack of control at speed also causes some riders to ride off the trail in turns and even in the straights. This only widens the trail, and who likes blown out singletrack? Some riders excessive speed is too much to bring into check quickly enough when they see a hiker are even another cycllist. This is not good. We do not need to have even more hiker/biker conflicts. Or possibly collisions with hikers or even other cyclists.

    So what I guess I'm trying to say to you "all mountain" guys is, if you're new to the sport please take the time to learn the necessary skills to control your bike. This will not only help with the trails and user groups, but it will also help you become a more competent rider.

  2. #2
    FishZapper
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    Well, after a post like that, Im not surpried you're polish.

    It is MUCH easier to control a bike with good suspension and brakes than some rickity assed Trek 4300 with 1.5 tires and flat bars. There is no "Problem with All Mountain" there's only problems with riders of ALL disciplines that dont know simple trail etiquette. Educate yourself before pushing your half-thoughts on others please. "All Mountain" is just another term for mountain biking. The sport is progressing, and that's that. Deal with it.

  3. #3
    ride hard take risks
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    Hay i just picked up a ZX10 & im going racing! Man the moto X im gonna clean house on this bad boy allready hittin quad jumps man gota slam on the brakes to hit the corner but the roost is killer man 45 feet high dude!!

  4. #4
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    Some valid points. I was a long time full suspension hold out and rode technical trails on rigids and a hardtail, before making the fully plunge a few years ago.

    It will take a while before everyone accepts "all mountain" as a legitimate term. Look how long it took before "freeriding" became accepted. Many still don't prefer the term. What is "free" about riding in a man made gravity contest with an entry fee. MBA now calls freeriding "black diamond" riding, thinking it will portray a more positive image for the sport?

    What I do know is that the difference between xc and the all mountain/bigger bike segment, has become profound. The amount of travel, wheel base, bb height, weight, durability, and geometry has changed dramatically over the last several years, resulting in a distinct category imo. It used to be that everyone was on a light xc type of bike and now there is a myriad of options. I have watched old footage of technical north shore riding, where everyone was on rigids and xc hardtails and those guys were being physically punished, regardless of how good they were.

    The advent of heavier duty trail bikes has made life easier for those who want more cush for the push. Sure a decent rider can ride most trails on a ss ridid if they want to, but like it or not, all mountain is a term that fits for the new breed of bike and more aggressive riding that is commonly associated with it.

    It is just a term that can be interpreted many different ways. All mountain is here to stay.

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    take a look at the first sticky

    I think is best summed up as an additude style. More than likely you won't find a FR in lycra shorts. Or an XC rider in jeans. Kinda grungy like FR and but not full lycra XC. It combines everything.

    I want XC usability and DH durability out of my trail bike. Well the only way is to have a heavier XCish bike that is made to take more abuse. Most of the people in the AM category spent more on their ride then a beginner is willing to spend. Therefore mostly, not allways, the rider has a better concept of trail etiquette just out of experience. I left my Scalpel and went to an ID, which in my opinion was not an AM type bike like I was told, because I was getting better and more aggressive. I did not think the Scalpel would have lasted. The ID didn't. Now I have a Moment and that foots the bill. I don't ride with lycrs unless I have baggies on over them. I save all the tight fitting clothes for when I am on the road. And as was said

    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    It is just a term that can be interpreted many different ways. All mountain is here to stay.
    Team MOJO Wheels.

  6. #6
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    We are all big people here. We decide how much research we do on a product before we buy it. If people screw up, screw 'em. Live and learn.... and then do it all over again.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    ..... and who likes blown out singletrack?
    Well judging by the popularity of the trails here on the Front Range in Colorado, I'd say a lot of people like it
    Last edited by Steve71; 05-02-2006 at 05:01 PM.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  8. #8
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    Are you sure you are talking about bicycles and not new sport bike owners ? Really, personally I don't see your scenario too believable. I ride w/ a lot of newbie cyclists and find regardless of the bike, they ride within their own limits. Sure there is always someone out of their league trying to run with a faster pack but this usually comes to a quick conclusion - they slow (crash or what not).

  9. #9
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    Funny, paranoic and without freedom

    There was an article in Mbaction that said a few years that all the newbies (purchasing first bike) where buying for their first bike, more capable bikes with around 5 inches of travel.

    1- This is a tendency and people do what they whant (or like, or read or pleased)

    2- A lot of experimented people go as fast as they can and they also can caused an accident. (shiat happens, you can't control everything or everyone)

    3- "All mountains".....????? 20 years ago there was just 1 bike for everything. Sports is growing!!!!! why? cause open minded people, not OBTUSE

    4- Everyone is better on a better bike, plain and simple. Doesn't matter travel or brake type or bike type or cloth type

    5- We are unique, everyone likes different, try to understand and not to be so fxxxx critic!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    I think that some of the posters you guys refer to as "trolls" only want to be recognized as doing and being "all mountain" 10-20 years ago.
    So these guys want a pat on the back for riding their bike. That's not what I'm getting out of their posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    Some of them might have a point as xc and all mountain really are the same thing.
    As it relates the this forum, XC and all mountain are NOT the same thing.

    On this website there are many forums. The all-mountain forum splits the distance between the XC racing forum and the Downhill/Freeride forum. That's it.

    As far as the marketing aspect goes, I don't pay much attention to it. But the fact remains that at this time there are bicycles that are well suited to "all-mountain" riding, meaning they both climb well and descend well.Yes, it is possible to ride any type of terrain on any type of bicycle.

    The guys who say, "all-mountain is just what we called mountain biking back in the day." They sound like old guys declaring how tough it used to be and how great they were. I bet all their rides were uphill both directions, in the snow.

    And then there are the guys who boast how they ride the sickest terrain on their single speed rigid. I say, "go for it" , but don't give other people crap about the bikes that they ride, or what they call their type of riding.


    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    If you want to call yourselves all mountain, who am I to say you can't.
    I'm glad to you see say this.


    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    BUT...I think there is a problem.

    In my opinion there are a lot of riders who purchase these bikes that do not have the skills to control them properly. These bikes allow the inexperienced rider to go much too fast for their ability level. That in turn causes them to skid, which only creates stutter bumps and further damages the trail. The lack of control at speed also causes some riders to ride off the trail in turns and even in the straights. This only widens the trail, and who likes blown out singletrack? Some riders excessive speed is too much to bring into check quickly enough when they see a hiker are even another cycllist. This is not good. We do not need to have even more hiker/biker conflicts. Or possibly collisions with hikers or even other cyclists.
    Do you really think trail erosion and user conflicts are mostly because novice riders are on longer travel trail bikes?


    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    So what I guess I'm trying to say to you "all mountain" guys is, if you're new to the sport please take the time to learn the necessary skills to control your bike.
    Absolutely. Unfortunately, the best place to learn trail riding skills is on the trail itself. And as other posters stated, most riders tend to stay within their limits. Or they crash. That's how you learn.

    Patrick

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    I think that some of the posters you guys refer to as "trolls" only want to be recognized as doing and being "all mountain" 10-20 years ago. .
    Well, bashing people for using a newer term that describes something more specifically than just saying "mountain biking" is not a great way to get recognized as an experienced rider.

    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    Some of them might have a point as xc and all mountain really are the same thing.

    It depends more on riding ability than it does type of bike. If you want to call yourselves all mountain, who am I to say you can't..
    I don't think most of these people are labeling themselves as anything. I agree that the terrain has not changed, though I think the average person is riding more difficult terrain than 10 years ago largely due to the better equipment. And that is the point: There is a much wider variety of equipment available. What we now call xc bikes used to be all you had to choose from if you had a bunch of climbing to do. Now you have more choices and what we call "all mountain" bikes are one of those choices. Why wouldn't you give these their own name. Sure we are often all on the same terrian, but there are several ways to aproach that terrain, and xc and AM bikes each are geared towards these different styles.

    What I don't get is why some people are so hung up on the fact that we dare distinguish between xc and AM. Fine, so some people (like myself) have been riding like this for years calling it "XC" or "XC with some light FR thrown in" or "agressive xc" and now I call it AM. I don't have a problem changing the word I use to describe what I do now that we have more specific terminology. Why are these other people so hung up on it? XC just has a more specific meaning than it used to.

    Tearing up the trail more? Yeah, probably, but it's not just the newbies. We are ALL going a whole lot faster than we used to, and that is harder on the trail.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTreadOnMe
    Well, after a post like that, Im not surpried you're polish.
    Still a racist ass...

    In any case, I still (as I've posted in another thread) think it's appropriate to say that AM is a marketing rebrand (which this site will promote, seeing as how it's a marketing organ) of XC. Now XC is associated with "lycra wearing pussies" so the middle-aged weekend warriors feel more secure with "All-Mountain".

    I refer to this thread Define all mountain to back up my point.
    It's just frustrating sometimes being an Athena...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleu
    Still a racist ass...

    In any case, I still (as I've posted in another thread) think it's appropriate to say that AM is a marketing rebrand (which this site will promote, seeing as how it's a marketing organ) of XC. Now XC is associated with "lycra wearing pussies" so the middle-aged weekend warriors feel more secure with "All-Mountain".

    I refer to this thread Define all mountain to back up my point.
    Well Im Polish as well, so I have that luxury

    As for it being a marketing type thing, yeah whatever. I mean, the name "All Mountain" may be, but it is a specific type of bike/riding thats not super light/efficient XC, nor is it DH. Its just mountain biking. Big deal.

  14. #14
    ride hard take risks
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleu
    Still a racist ass...

    In any case, I still (as I've posted in another thread) think it's appropriate to say that AM is a marketing rebrand (which this site will promote, seeing as how it's a marketing organ) of XC. Now XC is associated with "lycra wearing pussies" so the middle-aged weekend warriors feel more secure with "All-Mountain".

    I refer to this thread Define all mountain to back up my point.
    Keep up on MTB at all, naww i dought it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogonfr
    Keep up on MTB at all, naww i dought it.
    English is GREAT. Give it a try. :blush2:
    It's just frustrating sometimes being an Athena...

  16. #16
    ride hard take risks
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleu
    English is GREAT. Give it a try. :blush2:
    Too complicated :14:

  17. #17
    I already rode that
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    As it relates the this forum, XC and all mountain are NOT the same thing.

    On this website there are many forums. The all-mountain forum splits the distance between the XC racing forum and the Downhill/Freeride forum. That's it.
    Yea it splits the difference between XC racing and DH/FR But the point remains that XC and AM is generally the same thing unless you believe the marketing thing or what any mag tells you.

    As far as the marketing aspect goes, I don't pay much attention to it. But the fact remains that at this time there are bicycles that are well suited to "all-mountain" riding, meaning they both climb well and descend well.Yes, it is possible to ride any type of terrain on any type of bicycle.
    See above

    Do you really think trail erosion and user conflicts are mostly because novice riders are on longer travel trail bikes?
    Trail widening is caused by novices and when others start riding around obstacles or such which does cause trail erosion. Its a fact as well that having a FS means one is going to be going faster vs a hardtail rider over roots or such which also for novices means they are less likely going to be able to control their braking. Which is another issue alot of riders dont do properly (too afriad to use their front brake).
    Absolutely. Unfortunately, the best place to learn trail riding skills is on the trail itself. And as other posters stated, most riders tend to stay within their limits. Or they crash. That's how you learn.

    Patrick
    Thats true there.
    Riding F/S since oct 94'

  18. #18
    Your bike is incorrigible
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    I love this sort of argument. Because he has been riding for a little while, he gets to tell us newbies all about how real "mountain biking" should be done.

    I have news for you: I've been riding at least 5 years longer than you, Polish, so I get to tell you how to ride your bike. In fact, I'll just bet that you started off on one of those new fangled bikes with front suspension, tearing up the trails because you couldn't control your speed.

    GIVE ME A BREAK!! STOP BEING COMPLETE WANKERS!!!


  19. #19
    aka baycat
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    ahhh who really cares


    go ride your bike!

  20. #20
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    Sometimes when I am doing my AM ridin on my hardtail, I drag a big jagged log behind my bike, I figure that way I am causing as much erosion as my buddies on their FS and getting all the extra stamina to boot!

    ....wait.. .what?

  21. #21
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    Sometimes when I ride my FS I drag a jagged hardtail behind my bike.....................

    jk
    Team MOJO Wheels.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by polish coyote
    In my opinion there are a lot of riders who purchase these bikes that do not have the skills to control them properly. These bikes allow the inexperienced rider to go much too fast for their ability level. That in turn causes them to skid, which only creates stutter bumps and further damages the trail. The lack of control at speed also causes some riders to ride off the trail in turns and even in the straights. This only widens the trail, and who likes blown out singletrack? Some riders excessive speed is too much to bring into check quickly enough when they see a hiker are even another cycllist. This is not good. We do not need to have even more hiker/biker conflicts. Or possibly collisions with hikers or even other cyclists.

    So what I guess I'm trying to say to you "all mountain" guys is, if you're new to the sport please take the time to learn the necessary skills to control your bike. This will not only help with the trails and user groups, but it will also help you become a more competent rider.
    Did I really read that or was it just a bad dream? We're talking about bicycles here, not 200 hp superbikes!! I believe I (and practically all other riders reading this forum) have the skill to safely and responsibly operate a 5" travel 32 lb mountain bike thanks very much! So you would like me to slow down a little by riding a less appropriate type of bike for the trails I ride? Hikers beware, I'm coming through!

  23. #23
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    Claiming that All Mountain is the same as XC is simply absurd. For a very clear example of the difference, take a look at the website for Marzocchi forks. They have a martix that helps you pick a fork to match the type of riding you do. Certain forks are designed for light trail use with minimal roots and rocks....for riders that like to keep the wheels on the ground. Then there are the forks for the folks that like to take some 1-2 foot drops and hit big rocks and roots. Then there are the forks for the serious DH and FR riders. If AM were just another lable for XC then there would be no need to differentiate types of equipment.

    A pure XC rider can easily get away with a 22-pound hard tail. Take that bike to a highly technical, rocky trail with lots of drops and you'll be lagging behind the guys on 5-inch travel bikes. XC can get away with rim brakes whereas you will not see many AM riders without discs.

    And just to caveat my statements above: Everything is relative to skill and desire of the individual rider. If you start putting hard and fast labels on bikes and bikers then you do a disservice to the community. Just get out there and ride.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vecsus
    Claiming that All Mountain is the same as XC is simply absurd. For a very clear example of the difference, take a look at the website for Marzocchi forks. They have a martix that helps you pick a fork to match the type of riding you do. Certain forks are designed for light trail use with minimal roots and rocks....for riders that like to keep the wheels on the ground. Then there are the forks for the folks that like to take some 1-2 foot drops and hit big rocks and roots. Then there are the forks for the serious DH and FR riders. If AM were just another lable for XC then there would be no need to differentiate types of equipment.

    A pure XC rider can easily get away with a 22-pound hard tail. Take that bike to a highly technical, rocky trail with lots of drops and you'll be lagging behind the guys on 5-inch travel bikes. XC can get away with rim brakes whereas you will not see many AM riders without discs.

    And just to caveat my statements above: Everything is relative to skill and desire of the individual rider. If you start putting hard and fast labels on bikes and bikers then you do a disservice to the community. Just get out there and ride.

    I sort of agree with this, except for the part about XC bikes not keeping up with AM bikes in technical "AM" riding. I think this is what people are having issues with.

    XC and AM bikes are clearly different, but for the most part they are designed for the same terrain. We've been riding this "AM" terrain for years on xc bikes with no problems. It's the riding STYLE within that terrain that is different. Sure, on the extreme ends it makes a difference. If it is ALL very smooth and flowy an xc ride is going to work better, and if you are doing repeated 3 foot drops and shuttling to the top then an AM ride is better. But for the riding we call "AM" (little bit of everything), an AM bike and an XC bike are just two different approches to the same terrain, the exeptions being the most extreme ends of the spectrum, but most AM rides are all over the xc-fr spectrum. Sure, the guy on the 23 lb hardtail will lag on a really gnarly descent, but he/she will make it up when everyone starts climbing back up or on the flats. The person on a 26 lb XC FS will probably not lag much behind the AM rigs much even on the DH sections. I had no problems doing 3' drops on my old Superlight (though they were more fun and less scary on the Heckler) Honestly, if my main concern was to get through it all the fastest, I cannot think of any places I would not choose a 26 lb XC FS over my 31 lb AM rig if I had to climb what I am going down.

    If you ever ride in the Northeast, you'll know there is no such thing as minimal rocks and roots, but XC bikes do just as well as AM rigs.

    I totally agree that XC and AM equipment is very different, but it is becuase of the riding STYLE, not the terrain itself. I'm not bashing AM bikes. That's what I ride myself, but I'm not fooling myself that I NEED an AM rig for what I am doing. I just like it better for my riding style.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldsteele
    Sometimes when I ride my FS I drag a jagged hardtail behind my bike.....................

    jk

    Hahahahahaha

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