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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinGT View Post
    But you'd be crazy to think a 30 lb, 150mm travel bike is going to perform the same on terrain that can't benefit from that suspension as a bike that's 10 pounds lighter.
    When it comes to pure pedaling...my 19.7lb XC HT pedals like a rocket compared to my 30.5lb 140mm trail bike. When it comes to climbing...the XC bike almost feels like cheating.

  2. #102
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    This thread made me re-evaluate things and prompted this impulse purchase 2 days ago...

    Overbiked almost a thing of the past?-image-2018-08-21-7.20-am.jpg

    KONA BIKES | MTB | HONZO | Honzo ST 30th BDay SE

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    I built up a 2nd, relatively inexpensive wheelset for my 'enduro' bike. Massively heavy, DH casing tires for park riding (plus a tire insert out back) and DoubleDown rear/EXO front for general trail riding.

    1 bike + 2 wheelsets seems to work well. I bring both wheelsets when we go for park weekends. A day at Angel Fire and a day of trail riding around Taos. Amazing the difference from just swapping wheels.
    Same, I ride my Slash all the time. Park I drop the flip chips, give it a bit less pressure in back and swap wheels and tires. Normal riding is the high position with a bit higher pressure and lighter wheels and tires and usually a fast roller for summer. The wheels sets are close to the same weight but the tires make a huge difference between weight and rolling resistance.
    I like to fart when I'm in front of you on a climb

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    This thread made me re-evaluate things and prompted this impulse purchase 2 days ago...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    KONA BIKES | MTB | HONZO | Honzo ST 30th BDay SE
    That's awesome. Those bikes are sweet. You're gonna have a blast.

    It's kinda liberating riding a hardtail; you're not gonna be as fast as you could be, so you're free to just have fun.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    This thread made me re-evaluate things and prompted this impulse purchase 2 days ago...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    KONA BIKES | MTB | HONZO | Honzo ST 30th BDay SE
    Mike we talked about this. This was a well thought out purchase. Besides, itís Limited Edition with shiny paint!

    This was my ďLimited Edition, biked (because I have been biking just long enough but not too long)Ē recent purchase:




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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacha Wacha Wacha View Post
    Mike we talked about this. This was a well thought out purchase. Besides, itís Limited Edition with shiny paint!

    This was my ďLimited Edition, biked (because I have been biking just long enough but not too long)Ē recent purchase:




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Based on this thread, Iíd say: youíre overbiked!

  7. #107
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    No, no - Iím not. Iím simply ďbikedĒ because Iíve been riding more than 5 and less than 20!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Mine is simpler^^

    Been riding for 20yrs. Underbiked

    Been riding for 5yrs. Overbiked

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacha Wacha Wacha View Post
    No, no - Iím not. Iím simply ďbikedĒ because Iíve been riding more than 5 and less than 20!
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Rules...I always forget the rules!!!

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacha Wacha Wacha View Post
    Mike we talked about this. This was a well thought out purchase. Besides, itís Limited Edition with shiny paint!

    This was my ďLimited Edition, biked (because I have been biking just long enough but not too long)Ē recent purchase:




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Overbiked or not, that is one sweet ride.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Overbiked or not, that is one sweet ride.
    100% agreed. Super sweet ride WWW.

    Which reminds me...I HAVE to get a Knolly eventually. I am done though for 2018. As it stands, I seriously need someone to arrange an intervention.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    100% agreed. Super sweet ride WWW.

    Which reminds me...I HAVE to get a Knolly eventually. I am done though for 2018. As it stands, I seriously need someone to arrange an intervention.
    On my way. I can remove at least 2 of them for you. lol

  12. #112
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    Imma try a 130mm bike next after being on a 150mm Stumpy for a while now. Prolly a 2019 GT Sensor.

    For a slow trail hack like me the Stumpy has been fine - apart from the low BB and resulting pedal whacks, mostly going up.

    Though yesterday while zoned out I pedal whacked a ridiculously small busted off stump and went OTB going down.
    Less isn't MOAR

  13. #113
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    Give me a 135R 150F

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    100% agreed. Super sweet ride WWW.

    Which reminds me...I HAVE to get a Knolly eventually. I am done though for 2018. As it stands, I seriously need someone to arrange an intervention.
    Mike - will you provide goodie bike boxes full of these so-called "impulse" buys?

    I'll arrange if so.
    Focus on technique and save the puking for later. - L. McCormack

  15. #115
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    I agree with the OP's overall premise that "being overbiked is almost a thing of the past" but his example of leading HIS group of friends means very little to his argument. Bring that 29 lb sled out to Prescott and ride the Whiskey 50 in the Open class.

    We all enjoy riding different styles of bikes. There are guys who don't even own a bike with more than 120mm of travel and others who don't own anything less than 150mm of travel. I'm lucky enough to have multiple bikes and pick a bike based on where I'm riding to maximize the FUN factor for ME. I don't care if I'm the fastest up or down, I'm looking to have a great ride and have fun at the same time. I had a hardtail for years and aside from "road" rides, I never rode it. I tried my friend's SS one time...I hated it. To each their own. Ride what you want.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I agree with the OP's overall premise that "being overbiked is almost a thing of the past" but his example of leading HIS group of friends means very little to his argument. Bring that 29 lb sled out to Prescott and ride the Whiskey 50 in the Open class.

    We all enjoy riding different styles of bikes. There are guys who don't even own a bike with more than 120mm of travel and others who don't own anything less than 150mm of travel. I'm lucky enough to have multiple bikes and pick a bike based on where I'm riding to maximize the FUN factor for ME. I don't care if I'm the fastest up or down, I'm looking to have a great ride and have fun at the same time. I had a hardtail for years and aside from "road" rides, I never rode it. I tried my friend's SS one time...I hated it. To each their own. Ride what you want.
    Heh, I "raced" my 43lb Turner Hiline in that one year...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I agree with the OP's overall premise that "being overbiked is almost a thing of the past" but his example of leading HIS group of friends means very little to his argument. Bring that 29 lb sled out to Prescott and ride the Whiskey 50 in the Open class.

    We all enjoy riding different styles of bikes. There are guys who don't even own a bike with more than 120mm of travel and others who don't own anything less than 150mm of travel. I'm lucky enough to have multiple bikes and pick a bike based on where I'm riding to maximize the FUN factor for ME. I don't care if I'm the fastest up or down, I'm looking to have a great ride and have fun at the same time. I had a hardtail for years and aside from "road" rides, I never rode it. I tried my friend's SS one time...I hated it. To each their own. Ride what you want.
    I would ride my 165/180mm bike around your wiskey 50. 600m of climb and descend. Sounds like fun. Particilularly the descent part.

    Whats your favourite bike out of the Tracer, Primer, 5010?

  18. #118
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    Friend of mine "raced" his 35 pound Intense Uzzi 26" at the Havasu Havoc. He did a pretty good job on it!

    I think I lapped him twice, but still...my bike was half the weight and a HT on a very much HT course

  19. #119
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    I've reviewed all statements on this thread and come to the following conclusions.

    Riders can be categories into three groups.

    The Descender, The optimiser and The pedaler.

    The Descender:
    Wants to survive the up so he can roost down. He is happy to sacrifice a bit of up efficeincy if that means he will own the gnarly down. When the trail gets easier on the down he will ride faster and seek out alternative lines rather than change down bikes. He generally wont feel overbiked unless he is riding a totally inappropriate bike like a rig on an xc track.


    The Optimiser:

    Wants to optimise the trail for the best total experience. He will be happy to loose descending performance to gain pedalling efficiency or sacrifice pedal efficiency for better descending if that is what is best for the overall trail. He is likely to have a swiss army knife collection of bikes to choose from so he can optimise each ride. He will feel over biked if he hasnt selected the optimum bike for that ride.


    The pedaller:
    Wants to optimise the pedal efficiency. He cares not for the descent and will sacrifice descending ability so he can pedal. Typically he will not seek out the super technical tracks and his whippet bikes will cover all his needs. He will feel over biked if there is even a hint of loss of pedal efficiency.


    In conclusion:

    Overbiking is not a thing of the past unless you are a descender which has found the unicorn bike that climbs well and descends like a rocket.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post

    In conclusion:

    Overbiking is not a thing of the past unless you are a descender which has found the unicorn bike that climbs well and descends like a rocket.
    Ha I own that bike. 6 inches f/r not overbiked anywhere. especially climbs.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  21. #121
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    Being "Over Biked" or "under biked" isn't about speed, it is about fun.

    The capabilities of the bike have to match the trail that you are riding. I have an Orbea Rallon, amazing bike that is a lot of fun on the right trails. But if the trail isn't steep enough or rough enough it is a chore to make the bike "work". Where as on the same trail a shorter travel/steeper bike comes to life and is an absolute joy to ride.

    Modern long travel bikes climb really well (most of them at least). But I would never describe them as "fun" when it comes to climbing. Actually, it doesn't matter how fit I am when I am climbing on long travel bike I feel out of the shape. Everything is harder. My rule of thumb is my heart rate is 10 beats higher for any given speed, the comfort difference between 155bpm, and 165bpm is significant.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Ha I own that bike. 6 inches f/r not overbiked anywhere. especially climbs.
    Your a descender

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Being "Over Biked" or "under biked" isn't about speed, it is about fun.

    The capabilities of the bike have to match the trail that you are riding. I have an Orbea Rallon, amazing bike that is a lot of fun on the right trails. But if the trail isn't steep enough or rough enough it is a chore to make the bike "work". Where as on the same trail a shorter travel/steeper bike comes to life and is an absolute joy to ride.

    Modern long travel bikes climb really well (most of them at least). But I would never describe them as "fun" when it comes to climbing. Actually, it doesn't matter how fit I am when I am climbing on long travel bike I feel out of the shape. Everything is harder. My rule of thumb is my heart rate is 10 beats higher for any given speed, the comfort difference between 155bpm, and 165bpm is significant.
    You are an optimiser

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Your a descender
    not me... I'm more xc but the bike -will- decend...
    bike was raced at, and won, sea otter dh race 2018

    I favor seeking climbs to grind
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    You are an optimiser
    I would say that fits me perfectly. Particularly since I have
    -An Enduro Bike
    -A 120mm trail bike
    -A 100mm FS XC bike
    -An XC hardtail.

    And I ride all of the bikes regularly.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  26. #126
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    I ride a 150mm bike all the time. I don't care at all about times. I don't race and if I'm riding with people, I don't care whether I'm dropping folks on the climbs/descents. Plus, I suspect i wouldn't gain much from getting a shorter travel bike in outright speed. A little bit, but not that much.

    Where I feel overbiked is when I'm riding on trails that are made unchallenging by the bike's ability to just plow over things. A few of the close by trails I ride aren't that challenging to begin with and with a 150mm AM bike, they really aren't that challenging. Now I can ride that bike fast on them. In fact given that the obstacles are mostly logs forming fairly square hits, I actually use up a lot of my suspension on the average ride. But riding a bike with less travel (an XC bike or an AM hardtail) would likely be more interesting and if those trails were the only thing I rode, that's what I'd get even if it didn't make me faster.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale-Calgary View Post
    If I'm being honest I havent ridden everything in West Bragg but a good trail bike with 66* 140mm probably can do most what people ride. I have a 14' Kona 134 that I'm fully upgraded and I'm sure it's fine for doing just about everything except Moose but mistakes do happen and backup of a "overbike" can pay off.

    Last year I made a dumb mistake on Prairrie link and broke my collarbone and was out for awhile. Now if I had a bike that could make up for my stupidity I might just not have thrown away 3 months of riding of our short season.

    I tend to be a boyscout in how I prepare for things so I have a Ripmo on order that I should have next week. I'm not a great climber so if the Ripmo climbs 80% of the Kona I will be happy. Much more fun on the downhill and it should help cover up some of my mistakes.

    I'll take overbike
    I have (in the past) spent a lot time riding from West Bragg. I've taken a couple of seasons off due to kids, work, and other excuses. But I;m planning on getting back into riding with a new bike.

    Right now, I'm considering the new SB150...partly to overbike. I've also grown in girth (riding at 220-230) and I think the burlier bikes can handle my weight better until I trim down to fighting weight. My 2014 Ghost Riot at 130mm front has always felt a bit light and noodly for me.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Your a descender
    He does actually have what might be the ultimate bike. Besides the 30lbs or so weight it "should" climb better than any HT or FS and still has enough suspension to have fun at the downhill park.

    Looking to get my hands on one for a test ride but there aren't many around.

  29. #129
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    My now "main" bike is a Turner RFX, 30lbs, 170mm travel up front, 160mm travel in the rear. I came from a 110mm, 24lb Santa Cruz.
    The RFX is just awesome, I use it for 30+ miles XC type rides, to bombing the bike parks.
    On the RFX, Ive set lots of PR's, mostly on DH's, but also on a few climbs and loops, which surprised me.
    My riding friends, mostly light trail/ trail riders say Im over biked, but since downhills are always more fun than climbing(I do like to climb) why not have a bike that is funner on the DH's, but still climb really well?
    EXODUX Jeff

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    He does actually have what might be the ultimate bike. Besides the 30lbs or so weight it "should" climb better than any HT or FS and still has enough suspension to have fun at the downhill park.

    Looking to get my hands on one for a test ride but there aren't many around.
    I missed it....what bike does he have?

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    I missed it....what bike does he have?
    this
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BaRbfvzn...tantrum_cycles
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    So..... 10 years ago you had to choose between up and down.
    If you wanted to shred down on the gnarly stuff you would have to take a heavy bike that pedalled like shit uphill to enjoy the down. Or you would sacrifice some of that descending ability so you could actually pedal up the hill without rediculous pain or slowness.

    Discuss
    No, that was 15 years ago.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGG View Post
    I have (in the past) spent a lot time riding from West Bragg. I've taken a couple of seasons off due to kids, work, and other excuses. But I;m planning on getting back into riding with a new bike.

    Right now, I'm considering the new SB150...partly to overbike. I've also grown in girth (riding at 220-230) and I think the burlier bikes can handle my weight better until I trim down to fighting weight. My 2014 Ghost Riot at 130mm front has always felt a bit light and noodly for me.
    That's awesome, that sb150 looks great! Since you probably wouldn't be getting one till spring keep an eye out for the sb130 that was mistakenly announced a couple days ago but taken down, it could be the one to get. I suggest talking to Scott at Ridley Cycle and putting your name on one of them.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale-Calgary View Post
    That's awesome, that sb150 looks great! Since you probably wouldn't be getting one till spring keep an eye out for the sb130 that was mistakenly announced a couple days ago but taken down, it could be the one to get. I suggest talking to Scott at Ridley Cycle and putting your name on one of them.
    I thought Calgary Cycle did yeti?

  35. #135
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    You really have to be biased in your head to think that being overbiked is a thing of the past.

    There's an optimal option for everything, but the problem is that it's a moving target. What's optimal right now, changes as other conditions change, be it the condition of the terrain, the condition of the rider, or the condition of their goals.

    The justification that one uses to be overbiked, is generally one that surrounds convenience. You don't want to change wheels, tires, suspension, or anything else, to be more ideal for the conditions. You just want to grab and go, and live with the choice. Which choice can you live with, is the question you're trying to answer. People answer this differently, be it a 5" 29er, a 140/5.5" bike, or a 160mm bike. The same person possibly is finding that they keep going bigger, and finding that it's still very versatile.

    In the end, the goal is the same. You want to be able to ride faster and longer/more efficiently, all without buzzkills. Pick one, and don't be a dick about it, nor disrespect other peoples' choices.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGG View Post
    I thought Calgary Cycle did yeti?
    oops, not sure who does Yeti.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    No, that was 15 years ago.
    Fair call. Im old so find it hard to remember last week let alone 10-15 years ago.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Thats not my ultimate bike. But if he likes it sweet!

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    My now "main" bike is a Turner RFX, 30lbs, 170mm travel up front, 160mm travel in the rear. I came from a 110mm, 24lb Santa Cruz.
    The RFX is just awesome, I use it for 30+ miles XC type rides, to bombing the bike parks.
    On the RFX, Ive set lots of PR's, mostly on DH's, but also on a few climbs and loops, which surprised me.
    My riding friends, mostly light trail/ trail riders say Im over biked, but since downhills are always more fun than climbing(I do like to climb) why not have a bike that is funner on the DH's, but still climb really well?
    I cant fault your logic.!

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post

    In the end, the goal is the same. You want to be able to ride faster and longer/more efficiently, all without buzzkills.
    Nah. I have one simple goal. To grin. The more i grin the better.

    That could be faster or slower or more efficient or less efficient depending on my mood.
    If im not grinning im getting it wrong.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Where are these mythical places where a 6Ē AM bike climbs faster than a 4Ē XC bike, given the same rider? I have not yet seen them.

    Super tech trails are that place -- but only because riding is (usually) faster than walking, and the aggregate differences between an AM and XC bike matter.

    These trails are rare and seem to be a dying breed.

  42. #142
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    Overbiked almost a thing of the past?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Super tech trails are that place -- but only because riding is (usually) faster than walking, and the aggregate differences between an AM and XC bike matter.

    These trails are rare and seem to be a dying breed.
    You are talking about climbs, right? If so, thatís not my experience. For me, the more technical the climb, the more it favors the XC bike.

    As long as things are ďpoint and plowĒ, sure, the big bike does well, but once I start needing really use body english to get up over a ledge, or navigate a sharp turn, or just be nimble in general, all that travel and slackness is mostly a liability. At least that is how it works for me.

    I know I do better on sharp rocky uphill switchbacks on my 80mm HT, than on my 140mm AM bike.

    Bit that does not mean I am ďover-bikedĒ for that whole ride with the 140mm bike, its just not the best for that section.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    You are talking about climbs, right? If so, thatís not my experience. For me, the more technical the climb, the more it favors the XC bike.

    I'm talking about everywhere, but my definition of 'super techy' in this instance might differ from yours. Likely from most, actually.

    Stuff like this: https://mikesee.exposure.co/just-swell

    P.S. Your sig is sweet.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    You are talking about climbs, right? If so, thatís not my experience. For me, the more technical the climb, the more it favors the XC bike.

    As long as things are ďpoint and plowĒ, sure, the big bike does well, but once I start needing really use body english to get up over a ledge, or navigate a sharp turn, or just be nimble in general, all that travel and slackness is mostly a liability. At least that is how it works for me.

    I know I do better on sharp rocky uphill switchbacks on my 80mm HT, than on my 140mm AM bike.

    Bit that does not mean I am ďover-bikedĒ for that whole ride with the 140mm bike, its just not the best for that section.
    I have to agree with Mike, as long as the AM bike isnt too long or low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Thats not my ultimate bike. But if he likes it sweet!
    160mm rear travel capable of shredding double diamond runs with no pedal bob or sagging on climbs while STILL keeping active rear suspension on climbs isn't the ultimate bike? It's about as do it all as it can possibly get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NHMB View Post
    Give me a 135R 150F
    I maintain that the Transition Scout has been the most versatile and capable bike I've ever owned. I don't know why more manufacturers haven't made a burly constructed, aggressive geo mid/short-travel bike.

    There's a few out there, but none of the big manufacturers seem keen to make a model that fills that slot.

  47. #147
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    At some point, it just becomes trials moves and you aren't really "doing it" as a mountain bike ride anyway. You have to maintain forward speed to credit it as "mountain biking" IMO, and a 29er XC bike IME always trumps a bigger bike. It may be that you get some meaty tires on that 29er, but when you start doing the big massive power-up moves, a big heavier bike with a slack HA will only hurt you more. We literally just did this a few months ago in Sedona, pro-level XCers that can rip-DH at the same time. There was lots of climbing going on by many riders on many different kinds of bikes in super-chunky stuff. Lots of descending going on too and not much holding back. There are places where I'd "rather have" a longer travel bike, but I fail to think of any where one would be faster climbing, even in the chunkiest chunk climbing that I've done.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Wut??? Riding in the mountain isn't mountain biking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    There are places where I'd "rather have" a longer travel bike, but I fail to think of any where one would be faster climbing, even in the chunkiest chunk climbing that I've done.
    you gotta demo a tantrum. it really does climb chunky snot better than anything out there.

    [barring any weight penalty and watts-per-kilogram argument, obviously if you are comparing to a lighter bike you gotta carry that weight, but man does it crank uphill ]
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    Werd Gumby.

    Trials moves on single track or a mountain is still mountain biking IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by briank View Post
    Werd Gumby.

    Trials moves on single track or a mountain is still mountain biking IMO
    agreed. lotsa climbs are only no dab if you trials parts of it.

    even some downhills funnel into notches and have to hop back and out of like a 3-point turn
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Part of the problem is how you define overbiked...more bike than you need? so much bike you're significantly slower? so much bike the trail is dumbed down/not fun? So much bike it's hard to maneuver in tight singletrack? Or some combination of those?

    All of those forms of 'overbiked' still exist in certain situations.
    Brilliant post, and the exact reason l dont ride my 29" FS anymore, it dumbed the trail down and l could pick the straight line and "hammer", got real boring real quick, now l have a All Mountain HT that l need to "ride" to be fast, and its great

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  53. #153
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    Overbiked almost a thing of the past?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'm talking about everywhere, but my definition of 'super techy' in this instance might differ from yours. Likely from most, actually.

    Stuff like this: https://mikesee.exposure.co/just-swell
    I think ďsuper techyĒ comes in a lot of flavors, and that is certainly one of them.

    I canít see anyone not considering some of the stuff in Moab ďsuper techyĒ

    Nonetheless, Iíve ridden (in some cases unsuccessfully) Technical stuff in Moab, and it does not really change my take on this. Unless I am carrying speed into a technical climbing section, I would still chose a 100mm XC bike over a 160mm AM/Enduro bike for pretty much anything Iíve come across.

    Of course, Moab is exactly the kind of place I would want a 160mm bike, so regardless of my above point, I would be doing those climbs on a 160mm bike because that is the bike I had with me.

    I find a 160mm bike to be ďoverbikedĒ for me for some places I ride. But Moab is definitely not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    P.S. Your sig is sweet.
    Thanks. I have a hard time letting some things go.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    I think there's advantages and disadvantages to long travel vs short travel and slack vs not-so-slack in techy climbing. If your idea of techy climbing involves plowing over stuff with pedal power, that's going to favor your slack, long-travel bike. If your idea of techy climbing is picking a careful line and using trials-like moves to wizard your way up, well that is going to favor the short travel, not-so-slack bike. In either case, I think lighter weight is going to be better than a heavier bike.

    Which brings into focus why the concept of "overbiked" is kind of silly. You've got all kinds of attributes, from travel length, to head angle, overall weight, to tire width, and on and on. When you say overbiked, it could be any combination of these things. Each attribute brings pros and cons to the table. I mean, take a look at something like the SB100. It's short travel at 100mm, yet clearly meant for all mountain, burly riding. How would you classify that, over or under biked? Or as someone posted above, what about all these slack hardcore hardtails clearly meant for all mountain riding? Is that over or under biked?

    So tell me what you really mean. Is my bike too heavy? Does it have too much front suspension, or too much rear, or both? etc. Being "overbiked" is just too vague to do me any good, unless you're talking wild generalities.

    Aside from all that, who freaking cares? If you enjoy what you ride, why do you care if it's "too much bike" ? If you don't like how it rides, either because you feel "underbiked" for whatever reason or "overbiked" for whatever reason, go get what you like. But if you walk into a bike shop and say, "I feel overbiked" then the sales person, if he's doing his job, is going to have to ask you a bunch of follow up questions to find out what it is you mean and what you're looking for. So how about we just drop these useless terms from our lexicon?

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    agreed. lotsa climbs are only no dab if you trials parts of it.

    even some downhills funnel into notches and have to hop back and out of like a 3-point turn
    The point is, once you are trials-ing, you are back to a hardtail or rigid being the best. As cool as those moves are, I don't consider hopping up mountain biking.
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  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I think there's advantages and disadvantages to long travel vs short travel and slack vs not-so-slack in techy climbing. If your idea of techy climbing involves plowing over stuff with pedal power, that's going to favor your slack, long-travel bike. If your idea of techy climbing is picking a careful line and using trials-like moves to wizard your way up, well that is going to favor the short travel, not-so-slack bike. In either case, I think lighter weight is going to be better than a heavier bike.

    Which brings into focus why the concept of "overbiked" is kind of silly. You've got all kinds of attributes, from travel length, to head angle, overall weight, to tire width, and on and on. When you say overbiked, it could be any combination of these things. Each attribute brings pros and cons to the table. I mean, take a look at something like the SB100. It's short travel at 100mm, yet clearly meant for all mountain, burly riding. How would you classify that, over or under biked? Or as someone posted above, what about all these slack hardcore hardtails clearly meant for all mountain riding? Is that over or under biked?
    Yep. This well said.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    I would argue that overbiking is totally still a thing. Maybe not for everybody and I realize that there are guys that love their long travel machine and there's nothing wrong with that. Its very trail and area dependent. Where I live the trails are very flowy with long uphill climbs and lots of pumping.

    A couple days ago I went on a ride with 4 other guys that were riding everything from XC full suspension bikes to 170mm travel enduro bikes. While the enduro bike guy could pull me a little bit on the biggest hits I absolutely destroyed them in the woods when we hit the flow on my hardtail. No matter how efficient your suspension geo is in the rear when it comes to pumping and climbing long sustained climbs the hardtail is king.

    From what I've seen in 70% or better of regular single track trails a hardtail rocks. For the other 30% a bike with sub-140mm of travel is more than enough. These days I see almost zero bikes over 140mm on the single track trails and at the lift served downhill park I see mostly 150mm+ travel single crown enduro bikes and almost no proper downhill bikes. Seems the market is saying overbiking is still very much a thing.

    BUT this is mostly a personal thing IMO. There are lots of people out there that get a kick out of underbiking (mostly gravel/CX guys) and if you love overbiking then that's fine too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Nah. I have one simple goal. To grin. The more i grin the better.

    That could be faster or slower or more efficient or less efficient depending on my mood.
    If im not grinning im getting it wrong.
    If that's your goal, then is your solution is to minimize buzzkills, which may include your own attitude, or the attitude of others poo-pooing on your bike choice, when you're out there trying to have your thrills?

    This is presuming that grinning is based more on attitude than whether or not your ride is a functional 160mm bike or an AM hardtail, which are faster or slower than other options in certain cases.

    Basically rewording what I said to imply that you're actually not disagreeing, but instead misunderstood. How slow can you live with? If you want to go on your 2 hr pedal fast, is it not a buzzkill if the bike is not well suited to it, such as being a BMX-inspired bike?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    If that's your goal, then is your solution is to minimize buzzkills, which may include your own attitude, or the attitude of others poo-pooing on your bike choice, when you're out there trying to have your thrills?
    This gets to another reason why I dislike the term "overbiked" - because it's often used in a pejorative sense. How silly is it to look down on somebody pedaling a bike in the woods because you think they didn't choose the right bike? I mean who cares?

  60. #160
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    I think the best use of the term "over biked" is when in the context of teasing a rider who is, well... over biked.

    Over biked riders are very sensitive to this issue and almost always take the bait when teased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    I think the best use of the term "over biked" is when in the context of teasing a rider who is, well... over biked.Over biked riders are very sensitive to this issue and almost always take the bait when teased.
    Then there are the XC goons who feel the need to pull out their mighty manhood and make sure to tell anyone who's riding a big bike (and having fun) that they're overbiked... and that they must not be nearly as skilled of a rider as said XC goon is.
    Last edited by EatsDirt; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Then there are the XC goons who feel the need to pull out their mighty manhood and make sure to tell anyone who's riding a big bike (and having fun) that they're overbiked... and that they must not be nearly as skilled of a rider as said XC goon is.
    I might be reading this wrong but these guys sound like toolboxes. Ride solo or find a different crew.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I might be reading this wrong but these guys sound like toolboxes. Ride solo or find a different crew.
    Iím guessing heís never actually ridden with the people heís describing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    If that's your goal, then is your solution is to minimize buzzkills, which may include your own attitude, or the attitude of others poo-pooing on your bike choice, when you're out there trying to have your thrills?

    This is presuming that grinning is based more on attitude than whether or not your ride is a functional 160mm bike or an AM hardtail, which are faster or slower than other options in certain cases.

    Basically rewording what I said to imply that you're actually not disagreeing, but instead misunderstood. How slow can you live with? If you want to go on your 2 hr pedal fast, is it not a buzzkill if the bike is not well suited to it, such as being a BMX-inspired bike?
    I dusted off my DH rig today then proceeded to cruize down a dh run. I could have ridden faster if i wanted to, have ridden faster down that track on the trail bike. But today the grining was about chlling on the rig.


    In short ride what ever give you grins.

    If you are not grinning then you are missing the point.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    In short ride what ever give you grins.

    If you are not grinning then you are missing the point.


    It's all a matter of perspective. For some suffering is part of the fun and it's tough to grin when you're drooling and hypoxic.

    Yeah I know that's a little weird but cycling has always been a fringe sport.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I might be reading this wrong but these guys sound like toolboxes. Ride solo or find a different crew.
    Speaking of tools.

    This thread comes down to those who are strong proponents that there is a right tool for the job, and those that are not.


    I admire that dude who has one bike that "does it all". Even if that "one bike" is an over biked 160mm rig running rails-to-trails, or the xc rig doing black diamonds. But, I'm still a strong proponent of having the right tool for the job.

    Lucky is the rider with varied terrain, and a few bikes. I'm such a fortunate soul and have a HT, a trail bike, and a full blown DH rig - that covers all the bases.


    When a rider smokes me on my DH rig while he's (or she's) on an enduro bike, and then tells me I'm over biked....

    I'll nod in agreement, hang my head, laugh, and buy that rider a beer.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    I maintain that the Transition Scout has been the most versatile and capable bike I've ever owned. I don't know why more manufacturers haven't made a burly constructed, aggressive geo mid/short-travel bike.

    There's a few out there, but none of the big manufacturers seem keen to make a model that fills that slot.
    My thoughts are, for a person that can only have one bike; as far as suspension,130-135 rear and 140-150 front would be optimal.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Speaking of tools.

    This thread comes down to those who are strong proponents that there is a right tool for the job, and those that are not.


    I admire that dude who has one bike that "does it all". Even if that "one bike" is an over biked 160mm rig running rails-to-trails, or the xc rig doing black diamonds. But, I'm still a strong proponent of having the right tool for the job.

    Lucky is the rider with varied terrain, and a few bikes. I'm such a fortunate soul and have a HT, a trail bike, and a full blown DH rig - that covers all the bases.


    When a rider smokes me on my DH rig while he's (or she's) on an enduro bike, and then tells me I'm over biked....

    I'll nod in agreement, hang my head, laugh, and buy that rider a beer.
    Iím exactly the same way.


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    I'm starting to think the reality is that most people are under-trailed. I'm continually surprised how tame most trails are. I realize every trail can't be a WC DH course but now when I start down a trail that says "Experts Only. Advanced Skills Required" I take that to mean "Very Mediocre Skills Suggested". I just got done riding around Chattanooga and there's a ton of man made flow trails. All of it was very tame from what I saw. With all those man hours spent, why not build in some real drops, jumps (not those rounded off lumpy things) or rock gardens on the "black diamond" trails? If a midtravel bike is overkill for most trails then I think the trails are the problem. I think mountain bikers need to raise the bar. Trails that require your tires to get at least a couple feet off the ground should be the norm, not the exception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I'm starting to think the reality is that most people are under-trailed. I'm continually surprised how tame most trails are. I realize every trail can't be a WC DH course but now when I start down a trail that says "Experts Only. Advanced Skills Required" I take that to mean "Very Mediocre Skills Suggested". I just got done riding around Chattanooga and there's a ton of man made flow trails. All of it was very tame from what I saw. With all those man hours spent, why not build in some real drops, jumps (not those rounded off lumpy things) or rock gardens on the "black diamond" trails? If a midtravel bike is overkill for most trails then I think the trails are the problem. I think mountain bikers need to raise the bar. Trails that require your tires to get at least a couple feet off the ground should be the norm, not the exception.
    100% agrree. Almost every "great new trial" built these days or new trail work means I'd wish i brought a CX bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    100% agrree. Almost every "great new trial" built these days or new trail work means I'd wish i brought a CX bike.
    Then there are the people who rate Ahab double black.

    Thatís just embarrassing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    When it comes to pure pedaling...my 19.7lb XC HT pedals like a rocket compared to my 30.5lb 140mm trail bike. When it comes to climbing...the XC bike almost feels like cheating.
    I don't know how anybody does this. My 150 bike is all very heavy duty. Add that to it being an XL, and 34-35lbs doesn't seem that far off from anyone's 30lb trail bike.

    But hell's bells, man...my XL (actually XXL, technically) hardtail couldn't break the 29lb mark to save its life. How does even a carbon bike get that light?

  73. #173
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    Earlier this summer I rode in Whistler. When they say black diamond or double black they freaking mean it.

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    Ive never been over-biked, my bikes have quite often been under-ridered though
    always mad and usually drunk......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Earlier this summer I rode in Whistler. When they say black diamond or double black they freaking mean it.
    Very true, Squamish is the same except when they say blue it is really a black

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I'm starting to think the reality is that most people are under-trailed. I'm continually surprised how tame most trails are. I realize every trail can't be a WC DH course but now when I start down a trail that says "Experts Only. Advanced Skills Required" I take that to mean "Very Mediocre Skills Suggested". I just got done riding around Chattanooga and there's a ton of man made flow trails. All of it was very tame from what I saw. With all those man hours spent, why not build in some real drops, jumps (not those rounded off lumpy things) or rock gardens on the "black diamond" trails? If a midtravel bike is overkill for most trails then I think the trails are the problem. I think mountain bikers need to raise the bar. Trails that require your tires to get at least a couple feet off the ground should be the norm, not the exception.
    That is true in a lot of places. I'm lucky that here the trails are full of rocks and twisty stuff. We even have a dirt jump track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Earlier this summer I rode in Whistler. When they say black diamond or double black they freaking mean it.
    Same here, their black and double blacks are no joke , I rode snowmass in Colorado this year too, their ďblacksĒ are blue green at best


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Earlier this summer I rode in Whistler. When they say black diamond or double black they freaking mean it.
    I learned the hard way the colors are for the region. A blue trial can be a black trail somewhere else.

  79. #179
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    We have a section of trail here in Bend that's marked black diamond that's so easy it's embarrassing. It's barely downhill and has a bunch of banked turns and a couple of rocks along the way. An 8 year-old noob can handle it.

    Overbiked almost a thing of the past?-mrazek.jpg

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    If every one of your rides is like riding up Tiger Mtn to ride down Predator, ok, then I get it,
    Oh hi!

    Actually not every ride, but I'm a Tiger/Raging/Tokul/Duthie local.

    I'll say this about the topic having recently switched over from a first gen 5010 to an ibis HD4. An enduro that can pedal is an awesome 'one bike' for our terrain. Yesterday I did 5700+ vertical and 30+ miles on the HD4 doing both the Raging River full route and Tiger (Master link/Quick link to the summit, top to OTG, Fully Rigid, Joyride, NW Timber to the bottom).

    For everyone other than Jayem that means I did a lot of climbing, them some legit gnar, some more climbing, a flow trail, a jump line and a cratered blown out flow trail. Then I went and did another nice singletrack climb followed by a fast black DH trail and some other tech on the way to the end of a 6 hour ride.

    And my takeaway was that for this type of riding where you're going to pedal up without a clock and hit some real gnar on the way down an enduro bike is a really damn good choice. Not only has the gap narrowed going up due to cockpit tweaks and eagle drivetrains, but I was WAY less beat up at the end of the day due to the bike's capabilities on the way down. On my 5010 I'd be off the seat more and weight back more cooking my quads which were already cooked from the climbs. I'd also have some serious grip and arm pump to work through, use the brake more and all of that.

    I'm not trying to compare myself to others. But I will point out that I PR'd OTG (the fast, black DH trail) near the END of the ride. That says something about the benefits of riding an enduro bike even on an epic.

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    So the Ibis held you back then?
    Ha
    Sweet story and I'm envious of your locale and stamina! I ask you if the HD really pedals nearly as well as that 5010?
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim c View Post
    So the Ibis held you back then?
    Ha
    Sweet story and I'm envious of your locale and stamina! I ask you if the HD really pedals nearly as well as that 5010?
    It truly has no business climbing as well as it does given the weight and slackness. The 5010 no doubt climbs better, but not THAT much better. And for the type of riding I do, I'll take a couple minutes slower to the top and all that stability, speed and comfort on the way down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    Oh hi!

    Actually not every ride, but I'm a Tiger/Raging/Tokul/Duthie local.

    I'll say this about the topic having recently switched over from a first gen 5010 to an ibis HD4. An enduro that can pedal is an awesome 'one bike' for our terrain. Yesterday I did 5700+ vertical and 30+ miles on the HD4 doing both the Raging River full route and Tiger (Master link/Quick link to the summit, top to OTG, Fully Rigid, Joyride, NW Timber to the bottom).

    For everyone other than Jayem that means I did a lot of climbing, them some legit gnar, some more climbing, a flow trail, a jump line and a cratered blown out flow trail. Then I went and did another nice singletrack climb followed by a fast black DH trail and some other tech on the way to the end of a 6 hour ride.

    And my takeaway was that for this type of riding where you're going to pedal up without a clock and hit some real gnar on the way down an enduro bike is a really damn good choice. Not only has the gap narrowed going up due to cockpit tweaks and eagle drivetrains, but I was WAY less beat up at the end of the day due to the bike's capabilities on the way down. On my 5010 I'd be off the seat more and weight back more cooking my quads which were already cooked from the climbs. I'd also have some serious grip and arm pump to work through, use the brake more and all of that.

    I'm not trying to compare myself to others. But I will point out that I PR'd OTG (the fast, black DH trail) near the END of the ride. That says something about the benefits of riding an enduro bike even on an epic.
    Off the subject but dayum, that is a serious day. I did both those exact routes a couple months ago (on my Mojo 3, left my HD4 at home, maybe shouldn't have?) over a couple of days. If that's your turf you are are seriously lucky dude. I've been going to Seattle for years (in-laws) from Dallas and never took a bike till this year cuz my bro-in-law knew a local rider he could hook me up with. I will NEVER go to Seattle again w/o my bike (or at least some gear so I can rent a bike). Those 2 trail areas are awesome! Predator next time...
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  84. #184
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    I will say I can definitely see the benefits of a hardtail in places where you're better off pedaling out of the saddle most of the time. I think that's the real disadvantage of the longer travel bikes. On twisty undulating trails where you're constantly changing direction it makes more sense to just stay out of the saddle instead of getting up then back down on the saddle every 10 seconds.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    Off the subject but dayum, that is a serious day. I did both those exact routes a couple months ago (on my Mojo 3, left my HD4 at home, maybe shouldn't have?) over a couple of days. If that's your turf you are are seriously lucky dude. I've been going to Seattle for years (in-laws) from Dallas and never took a bike till this year cuz my bro-in-law knew a local rider he could hook me up with. I will NEVER go to Seattle again w/o my bike (or at least some gear so I can rent a bike). Those 2 trail areas are awesome! Predator next time...
    Yeah dude! It's amazing up here. I moved here from Tahoe and I miss the snowboard bum lifestyle and sun but the trails up here and MTB advocacy are off the chain. I live in Carnation (1 stoplight town) that is 20 minutes from all of those trails. It's MTB heaven. Year round riding, work parties, great beer scene and lots of tech jobs to pay for nice bikes.

    OT indeed, but to bring it back trail system like Tiger and Raging River are where these enduro bikes really shine.

  86. #186
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    How exactly does a bike "hold you back" on a climb?

    Does the bike make it difficult to put down power? Or are people worried about the bike affecting how much faster they reach the top with virtually the same effort, or how much less effort it takes to get up the hill for any given pace?

    Focusing on the latter seems like cheating...

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    How exactly does a bike "hold you back" on a climb?

    Does the bike make it difficult to put down power? Or are people worried about the bike affecting how much faster they reach the top with virtually the same effort, or how much less effort it takes to get up the hill for any given pace?

    Focusing on the latter seems like cheating...
    Tell that to literally anyone who has seriously raced bicycles. Itís a sport of economy.


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  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudderNutter View Post
    Tell that to literally anyone who has seriously raced bicycles. Itís a sport of economy.


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    Can I tell it to people who have nothing but ego to lose?

    The serious racers have something to lose. What % of riders are in such a situation that they have such stakes at risk? Do people just pretend like they do, because they have an ego to defend?

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Can I tell it to people who have nothing but ego to lose?

    The serious racers have something to lose. What % of riders are in such a situation that they have such stakes at risk? Do people just pretend like they do, because they have an ego to defend?
    It all started with Strava. People want other people to think theyíre fast and donít wanna be embarrassed about a slow time. Some guys wonít even post a ride if it was slow for whatever reason. Seriously, Strava has taken the ďjust ride for funĒ component away from a lot of folks.
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  90. #190
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    With people I regularly ride with, I can the difference based on which of their bikes they're riding. I can keep up with the fastest guy if he's on his enduro bike but if he's on his hardtail I don't have a chance. A less efficient bike means you're wasting more energy for either the climbs or the up coming descent and it also possibly means it's harder to keep up on group rides.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    With people I regularly ride with, I can the difference based on which of their bikes they're riding. I can keep up with the fastest guy if he's on his enduro bike but if he's on his hardtail I don't have a chance. A less efficient bike means you're wasting more energy for either the climbs or the up coming descent and it also possibly means it's harder to keep up on group rides.
    You must be talking at about the ups and flats. I bet on the tech downs your buddy on his race xc bike is slower than on his enduro. It all depends what you intent is. Is it to ride fast up, down or overall.



    On a slow cruse up, rip the down kinda ride the more efficient bike gets to the top easier but then sucks balls on the down. In that instance the enduro bike rules unless is a ***** track.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    You must be talking at about the ups and flats. I bet on the tech downs your buddy on his race xc bike is slower than on his enduro. It all depends what you intent is.
    I'm talking about undulating terrain where downhill speed doesn't matter much.

    Sure on a long climb followed by some legit descending, I agree it depends on intent but on some trails there's just no significant advantage to an enduro bike. NICA race courses are an obvious example. On that type of trail overbiked is definitely still a thing.

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    You must be talking at about the ups and flats. I bet on the tech downs your buddy on his race xc bike is slower than on his enduro. It all depends what you intent is. Is it to ride fast up, down or overall.



    On a slow cruse up, rip the down kinda ride the more efficient bike gets to the top easier but then sucks balls on the down. In that instance the enduro bike rules unless is a ***** track.
    It has to be a true "black diamond" trail IME to really be faster on an AM/enduro type machine. We ride legit "DH trails" at the park during our Enduro races and no one is pushing a DH bike up those, because if you did, even if you made it to the top, you'd be too tired to really go fast anymore on the downhill, so on a longer ride being "over-biked" doesn't necessarily let you go "faster" on the downhills, may be in fact slower.

    It's all a balance and goes to preference. You are over-biked if you are not pushing your bike close to it's absolute max on the DHs, but as discussed before, there is risk there and safety margins may keep you from being stranded or hurt, while ultimately slowing you down a little.
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    Letís ignore the racing or the remarks of this or that is faster. If thatís your deal you can test and optimize it.
    The original premise was that modern long travel bikes are so good, that you canít really be overbiked anymore.

    This is not correct.

    Ignoring the racing, we bike for fun.

    Yes, long travel bikes can climb fairly efficiently in the saddle now days. Yes, they can offer benefits on rough climbs.
    I might agree if we are talking about long climbs, followed by long descents.

    But on fairly smooth rolling trails, were you never get up to a high speed, the benefits of big suspension and stable geometry are not used.
    In those cases, what is fun is something light, clickable and poppy. That way you can pump small features at low speed(on the flat or even uphill) to get some air, and you can flick around tight corners with ease.
    Slack and big travel simply isnít as fun in those situations, regardless of whether it is faster or slower, and it doesnt offer a benefit.

  95. #195
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    I still have plenty of fun on tight smooth XC trails on the same bike I ride "pro lines". I must be doing it wrong.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    Letís ignore the racing or the remarks of this or that is faster. If thatís your deal you can test and optimize it.
    The original premise was that modern long travel bikes are so good, that you canít really be overbiked anymore.

    This is not correct.

    Ignoring the racing, we bike for fun.

    Yes, long travel bikes can climb fairly efficiently in the saddle now days. Yes, they can offer benefits on rough climbs.
    I might agree if we are talking about long climbs, followed by long descents.

    But on fairly smooth rolling trails, were you never get up to a high speed, the benefits of big suspension and stable geometry are not used.
    In those cases, what is fun is something light, clickable and poppy. That way you can pump small features at low speed(on the flat or even uphill) to get some air, and you can flick around tight corners with ease.
    Slack and big travel simply isnít as fun in those situations, regardless of whether it is faster or slower, and it doesnt offer a benefit.
    I agree with this.

    If we are just talking about big climbs and big descents, I donít think there is any real downside to a big slack 160mm (or more) bike.

    However, I also spend a lot of time on rolling or flat terrain (perhaps even in the same ride as the big climbs/descents), and I just donít find them as fun on a lot of that.

    Heck even my 140mm bike feels like a bit much on some trails. Some trails are just more fun on the old 80mm hardtail.

    I think this discussion tends to focus too much on climbing efficiency. If that is the only possible downside one sees to a 160mm bike, then the days of being ďoverbikedĒ ended a decade ago.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Kind of reminds me of all the people I would see pushing their bikes up the Master Link trail at Tiger Mountain. This included full DH bikes, but a lot of enduro stuff too. This goes on nearly every day there, despite that trail being just an awesome easy constant grade. Then you rock t he downhill of Predator, which as a legit DH trail, takes around 6" of travel to be fun and really allow you to push it in the rough sections. I tend to feel the same way about bike parks, 6" is a magical number for me there, at least that much travel to really have fun and have the terrain open up. But I have to question the situation a little more when people push their bike uphill for 2 hours to ride down for 10 minutes.

    Like someone said above though, some people consciously choose a bigger bike as a safety margin for errors and so on. Seems like a well-thought out idea that is going to vary from person to person what that margin is.

    It's going to be hard to have a 22lb FS bike for the uphills that can endure full on DH riding worthy of a 40lb rig on the downhills. Designs and manufacturing won't support that for a long time, if ever. Your "just right" depends on many personal factors. Just don't think that you need some 160mm+ enduro bike for every downhill as the "fastest" way down. IMO, it's not and it depends on the downhill as well as it's fun to rock more level and even uphill stuff at higher speeds, which you need a lighter bike for.
    I pushed my 26lb carbon hardtail up the road grade at the top of Tiger just this past Sunday, and then rode it down OTG > NOTG > Fully Rigid > Joyride etc. By the end of the downhill, I definitely wished I had more bike, even though it was light and speedy on the way up.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    Yeah dude! It's amazing up here. I moved here from Tahoe and I miss the snowboard bum lifestyle and sun but the trails up here and MTB advocacy are off the chain. I live in Carnation (1 stoplight town) that is 20 minutes from all of those trails. It's MTB heaven. Year round riding, work parties, great beer scene and lots of tech jobs to pay for nice bikes.

    OT indeed, but to bring it back trail system like Tiger and Raging River are where these enduro bikes really shine.
    My V3 Bronson will be here any day, and I can't wait as I've been riding the trails you mentioned on my Canfield EPO hardtail since I moved here in '16. I live in Lake Marcel...we should ride.

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    But on fairly smooth rolling trails, were you never get up to a high speed, the benefits of big suspension and stable geometry are not used.
    In those cases, what is fun is something light, clickable and poppy. That way you can pump small features at low speed(on the flat or even uphill) to get some air, and you can flick around tight corners with ease.
    Slack and big travel simply isnít as fun in those situations, regardless of whether it is faster or slower, and it doesnt offer a benefit.
    I completely agree. I rode a Reign and a Trance back to back at a demo event on an XC trail (decent fun hills with small drops and roots but nothing difficult). The Reign pedaled just fine and if that was my only criteria then I'd probably say I wasn't overbiked. But the Trance was so much more fun and lively. The Reign offered zero performance advantages on that trail and was astoundingly boring. My Hightower LT (playful for a 150mm bike) is my max amount of bike for normal singletrack but still complete overkill sometimes which is partially why I'll probably always have a hardtail.

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    Letís ignore the racing or the remarks of this or that is faster. If thatís your deal you can test and optimize it.
    The original premise was that modern long travel bikes are so good, that you canít really be overbiked anymore.

    This is not correct.

    Ignoring the racing, we bike for fun.

    Yes, long travel bikes can climb fairly efficiently in the saddle now days. Yes, they can offer benefits on rough climbs.
    I might agree if we are talking about long climbs, followed by long descents.

    But on fairly smooth rolling trails, were you never get up to a high speed, the benefits of big suspension and stable geometry are not used.
    In those cases, what is fun is something light, clickable and poppy. That way you can pump small features at low speed(on the flat or even uphill) to get some air, and you can flick around tight corners with ease.
    Slack and big travel simply isnít as fun in those situations, regardless of whether it is faster or slower, and it doesnt offer a benefit.
    I totally agree with you on this but I've learned there maybe other reasons to choose a bigger bike. For me it is my absolutely terrible knees just can't take the harshness of shorter travel stuff anymore and I just can't get enjoyment out of the shorter travel stuff. I still have a hardtail and fatbike, but in the past few years some knee injuries have moved me more to needing a mid-travel bike as my daily just to actually get out and enjoy riding. Can't have fun if I'm not riding. I use to ride my hardtail for 20-30 miles no issue, now my knees are spent in 5-10 miles and they get so bad I can't ride for a few days after. If I stick to my 135/150 29er or 150/160 650b bikes I can ride everyday of the week, for any distant, with no issues. Yes I'm not on really long travel bikes, but I'm so glad the push has been to make mid and long travel bikes pedal better as that definitely helps me.

    So for that reason I'm so glad that longer travel bikes are good at pedaling, I get to have a ton of fun and ride all day, everyday.

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