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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Gunnar you get your bike yet?
    Tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D

    www.cyco.no

  2. #702
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    Deleted out of respect to Brian.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Artists=crazy=have you met me?

    rental car on the way to the airport. Do you know how much concentration it take to drive and shoot?

    Attachment 1155707

    I haven't done a gig in a year. Turns out I got a little busy. But my band members are all in other bands so thee'll be around when I get some other other spare time again
    I know exactly how much concentration that takes. Next time we get to chat, remind me to tell you about driving that fast on dirt roads....with cliffs on the sides.

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    yes. Bike.de should do something. Last year I was featured in a new tech thing tey did. They told mine is the only product out of that feature to make it to market and it was the high point of the show. Also, singletrackworld (uk) an bike rumor took a lot of pics. Magura said they'd post it on instagram.

    We'll see. A TON of people recognized it from Kickstarter, which was way cool.
    Great, I'm looking forward to seeing the coverage.

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxmark View Post
    Brian, if you tell me the kind of sound you like out of a bass i could probably guess the stick. I have a friend down the street that has a Cerwin Vega stack and 14 dif basses.

    Alembic.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    back to our regularly scheduled program.....

    Can't wait to get back home tomorrow and start building bikes again..like this frame//Attachment 1155708
    Love that Purple.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Great, I'm looking forward to seeing the coverage.
    got on Magura's Best of show page. But it's the second pic inNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-magura.jpg

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D

    www.cyco.no
    Got the bike!!! And both shakedown and a decent premiere ride now done. I'm so happy. In short it just works! On difficult climbs I have up to now been flicking the climb/descent switch, or a remote lockout lever to avoid the rear to collapse! Now I don't have too. As soon as I push the pedals I got response. I had this thought in my head many times during the ride:
    "What have I done! This plush 63HTA beast will never make it up that slippery climb" but again and again it did!!!
    I kept thinking: "Oooooh no, I'm gonna start using that annoying switch again! AND keep forgetting in which mode it's in.."
    Then I made another hard climb just to realize there is no need too!!!

    Here's my Strava loggs with a few photos in case anyone from RM still think this is just a hoax :-D

    https://www.strava.com/activities/11...S&v=1504551416

    https://www.strava.com/activities/11...S&v=1504619211

    Now I need to head home before it gets to dark. More later...




    www.cyco.no
    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 09-05-2017 at 10:52 PM.

  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    pffff, "if".......

    I built this up as a 160 mm 29 fr/160 mm 27.5 rr, which at the moment is still my favorite combo. I'll do more of a write up on this later.

    This build is mean to test some limits on rake:

    63 degree HT.

    440 mm reach,

    343mm (13.5") bb,

    428mm (16.85) cs

    Size M, which is equivalent to a 432 mm (17") seat tube with 724mm standover (28.5")

    Riding sweet.....Attachment 1152976
    The numbers on this look amazing. Are you achieving the 63* HT with a Cane Creek angleset or through some other means (dropout configuration, linkage trickery)? Love the slackness!

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesostris View Post
    The numbers on this look amazing. Are you achieving the 63* HT with a Cane Creek angleset or through some other means (dropout configuration, linkage trickery)? Love the slackness!
    non of that sorcery. Just put a 160 mm fork with a 29" fr wheel.

  11. #711
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    A muddy Tantrum looks great !

    A 63* HTA scares me to death ! never been a fan of these modern super slack HA's but in Brian I will trust (and the Shining shouldn't be quite that slack.

    Brian have you been following the latest talk on geo where there has been a lot of interest in reducing 29'er fork offsets (from 51mm to 46) ? Any thoughts ? Even though reducing the offset actually increases trail, supposedly it actually can offset some fo the impact of a slack HA.

  12. #712
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    Looking forward to more ride reports!

  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    A muddy Tantrum looks great !

    A 63* HTA scares me to death ! never been a fan of these modern super slack HA's but in Brian I will trust (and the Shining shouldn't be quite that slack.

    Brian have you been following the latest talk on geo where there has been a lot of interest in reducing 29'er fork offsets (from 51mm to 46) ? Any thoughts ? Even though reducing the offset actually increases trail, supposedly it actually can offset some fo the impact of a slack HA.
    63 deg scares you because you think it can't possibly climb without wandering all over and must handle like a truck on level ground, right?? And that's the hilarious part. It just doesn't.

    I watch that trail stuff with side interest. If I made forks, it would be different. So at the moment, I figure I have to make my bike handle with whatever the fork makers throw at me

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Looking forward to more ride reports!
    Me too, but apparently Gunnar needs something called sleep. I know not that of which he speaks. More frames shipping this week.

    In the meantime, I shoulda said tubes bigger than BB's

    From the BottomNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-bb-bass-tubes.jpg

  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post

    In the meantime, I shoulda said tubes bigger than BB's

    From the BottomClick image for larger version. 

Name:	bb bass tubes.jpg 
Views:	63 
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ID:	1156200
    You tease.

  16. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Got the bike!!! And both shakedown and a decent premiere ride now done. I'm so happy. In short it just works! On difficult climbs I have up to now been flicking the climb/descent switch, or a remote lockout lever to avoid the rear to collapse! Now I don't have too. As soon as I push the pedals I got response. I had this thought in my head many times during the ride:
    "What have I done! This plush 63HTA beast will never make it up that slippery climb" but again and again it did!!!
    I kept thinking: "Oooooh no, I'm gonna start using that annoying switch again! AND keep forgetting in which mode it's in.."
    Then I made another hard climb just to realize there is no need too!!!

    Here's my Strava loggs with a few photos in case anyone from RM still think this is just a hoax :-D

    https://www.strava.com/activities/11...S&v=1504551416

    https://www.strava.com/activities/11...S&v=1504619211

    Now I need to head home before it gets to dark. More later...




    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    That looks awesome - nice to see one of these bikes with some dirt on it, in production, in the wild. Looking forward to hearing more, but it sounds like the production bikes work at least as well as the prototypes did.

  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    You tease.
    Wanted to see how good you REALLY were about your bass amps......I woulda been impressed

    Those tubes produce this:New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-bass-hd130.jpg

    130 watts of TUBE POWER. What's that in wimpy solid state power, 400-500?

  18. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Wanted to see how good you REALLY were about your bass amps......I woulda been impressed

    Those tubes produce this:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bass hd130.jpg 
Views:	63 
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ID:	1156327

    130 watts of TUBE POWER. What's that in wimpy solid state power, 400-500?
    Classy. So thats what, a mid 70's Music Man? I disremember off the top of my head if that's a Class-A amp or not. If so, it's worth more like 650-700 watts of solid state. But power isn't really the point of those magical fire orbs is it? It's the tone. And the tone of one tube amp is worth more than all the solid state amps ever made.

  19. #719
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    Wait, what are tubes?

    Honestly, I dont get how some people claim double, triple or quadrupal the power output over solid state. Sure tubes are louder than a transistor simply because they can clip past 100%. But whats the max, 130%? 150% max maybe? I think most of the perceived increase in output is the dynamic punchiness they have over SS, but its not a true doubling or tripling of wattage.

    That said, its all about the TONE. The only true reason to run those magical fire orbs.

    EDITED: Brainfart regarding class-a.

  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post

    Brian have you been following the latest talk on geo where there has been a lot of interest in reducing 29'er fork offsets (from 51mm to 46) ? Any thoughts ? Even though reducing the offset actually increases trail, supposedly it actually can offset some fo the impact of a slack HA.
    Don't get caught up in the hype.

    From Pinkbike's review of the Sentinel:

    "I timed all of my runs, but the numbers didn't end up indicating any statistically significant difference between the two offsets; I felt like I was able to adapt my riding style fairly quickly to both forks. After swapping back and forth between the two offsets it was clear that there are benefits to the stock, reduced offset fork on the Sentinel – namely better front wheel grip and more stability – but the bike works just fine with a 'regular' 51mm offset fork as well."

  21. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Wanted to see how good you REALLY were about your bass amps......I woulda been impressed

    Those tubes produce this:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bass hd130.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	82.8 KB 
ID:	1156327

    130 watts of TUBE POWER. What's that in wimpy solid state power, 400-500?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Classy. So thats what, a mid 70's Music Man? I disremember off the top of my head if that's a Class-A amp or not. If so, it's worth more like 650-700 watts of solid state. But power isn't really the point of those magical fire orbs is it? It's the tone. And the tone of one tube amp is worth more than all the solid state amps ever made.
    I believe so, looks like one I owned in the '80s-'90s. Reading this thread makes me want to dust off and crank up my '90s Carvin.

    EDIT: hmm, just looked up values, should have held onto that as well as the 212-75. Just got tired of lugging them around.
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  22. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Nice looking bike.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  23. #723
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    >And the tone of one tube amp is worth more than all the solid state amps ever made.

    And by tone you mean distortion right ?


    Oh I've stepped in it now ! It would be safer to start an argument about Trump than step in that hornet's nest !

  24. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    >And the tone of one tube amp is worth more than all the solid state amps ever made.

    And by tone you mean distortion right ?


    Oh I've stepped in it now ! It would be safer to start an argument about Trump than step in that hornet's nest !

    "warmth"
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  25. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    And by tone you mean distortion right ?
    Timbre. Warmth. Tone. Groove.

    As an audio engineer, I'd be happy to define the phantom properties of sound until everyone is bored listening. But there's a more fun way to do it. Gary Clark Jr gives an Excellent Clinic on Tube Saturation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNH6PX-2euM


    That's either a Fender Princeton or a Vibro-King being driven by a Black Cat Super Fuzz. Yes, it's guitar. If you want, I'll dig up a bass isolation track and let everyone younger than Brian try to figure out who it is.

  26. #726
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    BB,

    any guesstimates on when full builds will ship ?
    5 weeks, 4 weeks, 3 weeks, something else ?
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  27. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I believe so, looks like one I owned in the '80s-'90s. Reading this thread makes me want to dust off and crank up my '90s Carvin.

    EDIT: hmm, just looked up values, should have held onto that as well as the 212-75. Just got tired of lugging them around.
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-music-man-f.jpg
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-musicman.jpg

    I am going to start another thread, about music, in the All mountain forum. I think it qualifies, don't you? Because this thread is gonna get busy with more bike stuff here shortly

  28. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    Don't get caught up in the hype.

    From Pinkbike's review of the Sentinel:

    "I timed all of my runs, but the numbers didn't end up indicating any statistically significant difference between the two offsets; I felt like I was able to adapt my riding style fairly quickly to both forks. After swapping back and forth between the two offsets it was clear that there are benefits to the stock, reduced offset fork on the Sentinel – namely better front wheel grip and more stability – but the bike works just fine with a 'regular' 51mm offset fork as well."
    Back to bikes....

    Here's the funny thing about that review "it was clear that there are benefits to the stock, reduced offset fork on the Sentinel – namely better front wheel grip and more stability"

    For some reason, those sounds like good reasons to try it! Saying the bike handles "fine" with less front wheel grip and less stability is like saying it works fine with 3 psi more in the front tire. Sure, it does. But why?

  29. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    BB,

    any guesstimates on when full builds will ship ?
    5 weeks, 4 weeks, 3 weeks, something else ?
    I'm settling in, getting a few frames built. Picked up another batch from Powder. Still getting more parts in, mostly DVO and XF, but not holding me up yet.

    At the moment, I'm only in direct contact with impending shipments, i.e. the next day or so. I'll expand that a little further here shortly. Keep in mind a lot of variables, many different color combos (my fault, ha, all good) and lots of changing orders and upgrades too (my fault) and dropout options (whose fault?)

    Annnnyyyywaaayyyyy. I'm bustin ass. My next few guys are Canadian, so extra pressure to get those out before weather hits. Luckily frame/shock only.

    And of course it all goes smoother and gets easier once the process gets a little refined. For example, all the bearings are now pressed into all of the links. Much more efficient than one frame at a time.

    I'll do some more public updates here and on Kickstarter, facebook etc, this weekend and start to develop an actual delivery schedule. A lot of this is still paint and I still need to source another powder coater to speed things up.

    Also, thanks a couple people (drew, trevor, cody) for volunteering to wait, even though they were earlier in line. It helps those with more time crunch needs.

    I didn't really answer your question, but will soon.

  30. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Back to bikes....

    Here's the funny thing about that review "it was clear that there are benefits to the stock, reduced offset fork on the Sentinel – namely better front wheel grip and more stability"

    For some reason, those sounds like good reasons to try it! Saying the bike handles "fine" with less front wheel grip and less stability is like saying it works fine with 3 psi more in the front tire. Sure, it does. But why?
    Sure, I'd try it. He just didn't seem to be raving about the benefits. More of a "yea it's a little better."

  31. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    Sure, I'd try it. He just didn't seem to be raving about the benefits. More of a "yea it's a little better."
    I know. That's what I thought was weird. I mean, if something offers, better front wheel grip and stability, for free, you take it. You don't say, well, it wasn't better enough. I can ride around it.

    Maybe it's just me, but if I think I found an incremental improvement to my system, I'm on it.

  32. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    That looks awesome - nice to see one of these bikes with some dirt on it, in production, in the wild. Looking forward to hearing more, but it sounds like the production bikes work at least as well as the prototypes did.
    It definitely works well!!! After the rain stopped yesterday I went out for in total over 4 hours. Fully kited up with lights on both bars and helmet. Strava gave up on me so not sure how long distance. But close to 20km I would guess. We ended up topmarking some hard climbs that are not possible to clear when wet due to roots and rocks. The 79er configuration makes the front feel invincible on just about anything when I miss my intended line, and end up going over obstacles I try to avoid.
    Both the shock and the Diamond fork are the plushest Ive ever been on except DH bikes.
    The bike acts like it's lower in BB then anything else I have been rideing except the Evil Wreconing set to the least low BB setting which are also very plush and settle allot under climb. I suspect the Topaz shock might have a bit too much volume and linearity in the spring to be ideal for the ML linkage. But a volume reducer sold solve that.
    Feeling low on the flats I expect more pedal strikes when climbing as I experienced on the Evil. But the linkage definitely compensates by raising the rear when it gets steep, and without stiffening things up as when switching to climb mode.
    I still feel the 79er setup might be a bit unnecessarily Enduro oriented for the trails I ride most of the time since I have a decent amount of deep and rocky single tracks and techy climbs I struggle to clear, and rarely do when it's not dry. So I really look forward to ride the 29er setup when the dropout for that arrives.
    But for the local day&night comp Hardbarka Enduro in a few weeks, the 79er setting will be perfect.
    I hope it will dry up next week so I can go and ride all my local trails at full attack to really push the bike to my limit, and get reliable Shock Wiz readings.

    Also time for a BIG thanks to Brian for managing to scramble to get my bike assembled before Eurobike even it did not look like that would happen!
    I'm a very happy man...

    www.cyco.no

  33. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    It definitely works well!!! After the rain stopped yesterday I went out for in total over 4 hours. Fully kited up with lights on both bars and helmet. Strava gave up on me so not sure how long distance. But close to 20km I would guess. We ended up topmarking some hard climbs that are not possible to clear when wet due to roots and rocks. The 79er configuration makes the front feel invincible on just about anything when I miss my intended line, and end up going over obstacles I try to avoid.
    Both the shock and the Diamond fork are the plushest Ive ever been on except DH bikes.
    The bike acts like it's lower in BB then anything else I have been rideing except the Evil Wreconing set to the least low BB setting which are also very plush and settle allot under climb. I suspect the Topaz shock might have a bit too much volume and linearity in the spring to be ideal for the ML linkage. But a volume reducer sold solve that.
    Feeling low on the flats I expect more pedal strikes when climbing as I experienced on the Evil. But the linkage definitely compensates by raising the rear when it gets steep, and without stiffening things up as when switching to climb mode.
    I still feel the 79er setup might be a bit unnecessarily Enduro oriented for the trails I ride most of the time since I have a decent amount of deep and rocky single tracks and techy climbs I struggle to clear, and rarely do when it's not dry. So I really look forward to ride the 29er setup when the dropout for that arrives.
    But for the local day&night comp Hardbarka Enduro in a few weeks, the 79er setting will be perfect.
    I hope it will dry up next week so I can go and ride all my local trails at full attack to really push the bike to my limit, and get reliable Shock Wiz readings.

    Also time for a BIG thanks to Brian for managing to scramble to get my bike assembled before Eurobike even it did not look like that would happen!
    I'm a very happy man...

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    Sounds great! Thanks for the update. If my test ride was any indication, that bike is going to keep a big grin on your face for a long time.

  34. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    We ended up topmarking some hard climbs that are not possible to clear when wet due to roots and rocks.

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    This is what I want to hear about. That config has a 63 degree HT angle. Silly for climbing.

    How did that feel? You are actually the only guy besides myself to ride the bike that slack. This is serious DH territory.

  35. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    This is what I want to hear about. That config has a 63 degree HT angle. Silly for climbing.

    How did that feel? You are actually the only guy besides myself to ride the bike that slack. This is serious DH territory.
    It simply feels good, wonderful even! And crazy to climb so well with that front end! And not thinking about reaching down for the "on the fly" adjustment while slipping side to side on wet rocks and roots.

    How much higher will the BB go with 29" wheel also on the rear?

    www.cyco.no
    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 09-08-2017 at 08:53 AM.

  36. #736
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    In case any of you are into suspension telemetry. Heres the suggestions the Shockwiz have given me so far..

    It confuses me a bit since the o-ring on shock keeps ending up very close to the end of the shaft. And that does not ad up that good with the suggestions since the suspension feels super plush.. But I have also only been riding on more or less soaking wet trails. So I guess it will look different when I get to rip my home trails in dry conditions..

    www.cyco.no

  37. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    In case any of you are into suspension telemetry. Heres the suggestions the Shockwiz have given me so far..

    It confuses me a bit since the o-ring on shock keeps ending up very close to the end of the shaft. And that does not ad up that good with the suggestions since the suspension feels super plush.. But I have also only been riding on more or less soaking wet trails. So I guess it will look different when I get to rip my home trails in dry conditions..

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    after looking at the Shock Whiz and how it works, I don't believe it has a real capability to dial in the Missing Link. Or properly evaluate it. The only parameter is has to work with is air pressure. What might it think when the shock is fully extended while climbing?? It must think the bike is in the air, tires off the ground. That's the only time a normal suspension would be at minimum air pressure.

    Then, when the link counter rotates to help the shock compress, what might it think then?

    As for it's suggestions to make it softer, I agree that I could go another step on valving. But, considering this is already more plush then the XF shock, which pretty much all demo riders agreed was super plush, I am wondering how/why the Whiz came up with it.

    It would be fun to play with one, but mostly I would try to make it contradict itself, because I'm like that.

    Since it just records air pressure over time, do you know if you can get that raw data?

  38. #738
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    Life in production

    Trying to deliver more frames, only to find undersized split reducer bushings for the CS/SS pivot. I can't have that and can't ship like that. Burned a little lathe oil to bang out a few setsNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-bushing-lathe-1.jpg

  39. #739
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    You mentioned a trunnion mount at one time. Is that in the works for the first frames that start rolling out after the crowdfunded batches, or is it further off? Will it allow a straighter downtube, and will that make the frame stiffer/stronger/lighter?

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  40. #740
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    The shockwiz is fun to try but don't take it too seriously because it's only reading air pressure.
    Shockwiz is to suspension tuning as Strava is to racing.
    Last edited by Lelandjt; 09-09-2017 at 08:21 PM.
    Keep the Country country.

  41. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    after looking at the Shock Whiz and how it works, I don't believe it has a real capability to dial in the Missing Link. Or properly evaluate it. The only parameter is has to work with is air pressure. What might it think when the shock is fully extended while climbing?? It must think the bike is in the air, tires off the ground. That's the only time a normal suspension would be at minimum air pressure.

    Then, when the link counter rotates to help the shock compress, what might it think then?

    As for it's suggestions to make it softer, I agree that I could go another step on valving. But, considering this is already more plush then the XF shock, which pretty much all demo riders agreed was super plush, I am wondering how/why the Whiz came up with it.

    It would be fun to play with one, but mostly I would try to make it contradict itself, because I'm like that.

    Since it just records air pressure over time, do you know if you can get that raw data?
    It records jumps and air time.
    The screenshot below is from the latest recording "session" BUT that recorded nothing more then the transport home including som slow technical but no super steep climbing, since I before that was pumping up the air pressure a bit which needs you to start a new reading.

    Looks like raw data is hidden according to
    http://singletrackworld.com/forum/to...t#post-8032942

    "The amount of people that could constructively use the raw data is very low which is why it is hidden from the user. You install it, calibrate it, go ride, and then check the App to see how things look."

    But why not contact them and ask how to find it! Considering your history in racing and what you are doing now, it would not surprise me if the would like to give you access to it..

    www.cyco.no

  42. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    The shockwiz is fun to try but don't take it to seriously because it's only reading air pressure.
    Shockwiz is to suspension tuning as Strava is to racing.
    It uses air pressure to determine where the shock/fork is in it's travel. This is basically equivalent to using an external linear transducer to do the same...as long as there's nothing in the shock that confounds the travel/pressure curve, such as a MRP ramp control cartridge. In the rear, shock travel does not linearly relate to suspension travel due to the leverage curve. The Missing Link has a rather extreme leverage curve compounded with very strong and variable anti-squat. I imagine that analysis performed by the Shockwiz would need to be modified to account for this.

    I believe the Shockwiz does a running analysis on pressure and accumulates the results rather than store the complete pressure vs time data for the ride and doing the the analysis post-ride.
    Do the math.

  43. #743
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    It must be possible to record the raw data also. But I guess you need som developer app to do that. And if recording from both shock and fork synchronized, it should not be too hard for the Quarq guys to adjust the software to also understand more advanced and effective linkages as Missing Link.
    If this is possible I could try to borrow another Wiz and do it..

    www.cyco.no

  44. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by fraseot View Post
    You mentioned a trunnion mount at one time. Is that in the works for the first frames that start rolling out after the crowdfunded batches, or is it further off? Will it allow a straighter downtube, and will that make the frame stiffer/stronger/lighter?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
    the very next batch will not use trunnion. They're just not quite universally available yet. It won't allow a straighter DT, but I hope to take the hole out of it which would please me immensely. I don't know that it will be stronger or even lighter, but cheaper and easier to make, for sure.

  45. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    The shockwiz is fun to try but don't take it to seriously because it's only reading air pressure.
    Shockwiz is to suspension tuning as Strava is to racing.
    I have to be careful talking about things lie Shock Whiz. Like when I made some comments about the Linkage program. I don't mean to belittle or look down on those that use them.

    It's just that I don't need them. Does that sound cocky? Not meant to be. But the reality is, I'm the kinda guy that would design a shock whiz or linkage program. For other people. And as such, I would take the raw data, write some equations to give some answers like "jump time=time when air pressure was at its lowest" to show a little bit of MY INTERPRETATION of the raw data.

    Because that's what you're getting. I'm not saying it's wrong, bad, useless or any other thing. It's another tool, made by guys like me in an attempt to interpret raw data for the lay person. It is a little incomplete and it is what you make of it.

    The Quarq guy made a comment "The amount of people that could constructively use the raw data is very low ".

    I'm one of those guys. You know that scene in the Matrix when they're looking at the screen of random numbers? The operator looks at the screen and says, "there's the blond in the red dress". When I saw data points, I see the bike (or race car) going through its paces. Other curves or interpretations just put a layer over that that clouds my vision.

  46. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    It must be possible to record the raw data also. But I guess you need som developer app to do that. And if recording from both shock and fork synchronized, it should not be too hard for the Quarq guys to adjust the software to also understand more advanced and effective linkages as Missing Link.
    If this is possible I could try to borrow another Wiz and do it..

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    trust me on this one, it is impossible for the quarq guys to do anything to interpret the Missing Link. Not without adding another senor or 2. It just flat out does not have enough information.

    As somebody else mentioned, I think it might even have trouble with a conventional linkage, due to changing leverage rates. It has no way to know this. A front fork is easy, 1:1 the entire time. And S-shaped leverage curve would throw it a ...hmmm, a knuckleball.

    Enter more strange forces it can't know about or see and it just can't say much using only air pressure. Generalities, sure. It will know if it's bottomed out or topped out, it just might not know why.

    I'll try one sometime. But I hope nobody is disappointed when I say I don't use this or any other electronic data acquisition system.

    I use sensors, my head, hands, feet and butt and I use my central processing unit to create instantaneous, real time equations and solutions. I use certain repeatable test conditions. I use 50+ years of riding experience. I use o-rings.

    For designing, I do not use Linkage or any other software to analyze suspension. I use physical location data points. Free body diagrams. Force vectors.

    If I could have a complete force curve from the suspension while riding, it would be useful. But this has to include the horizontal forces on the chainstay. The reality is, they must be pretty close to my calculations or the linkage wouldn't work......Some day, I might instrument it, but in the meantime, I have bikes to make!!

  47. #747
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    I just use it because it feels like a waste to not try when I have access to borrow one.
    It will be interesting to put it on the fork and see if the suggestions matches how I feel about the fork. Super plush to that gives silly good traction, but still good support so I've yet not been close to using full travel..

    What about shockwiz front and back AND that "subatomic stateofthe art" quarq powermeter! They must be at least tempted to have a go at the Missing Link, dont you think?

    www.cyco.no

  48. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I just use it because it feels like a waste to not try when I have access to borrow one.
    It will be interesting to put it on the fork and see if the suggestions matches how I feel about the fork. Super plush to that gives silly good traction, but still good support so I've yet not been close to using full travel..

    What about shockwiz front and back AND that "subatomic stateofthe art" quarq powermeter! They must be at least tempted to have a go at the Missing Link, dont you think?

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    If I had one, I'd play with it, but I'd get frustrated not being able to use it as a straight data logger. It would be fun to see the actual air pressure trace. It's the only way I can look at the screen of random numbers and see what's actually happening.

    The crank info would be interesting. I did use some crank info for my initial calculations, although prior to that (Magic Link), I just did it old school. Calculated assumption/guess.

    But we still need a horizontal force to the rear. How much horizontal bump force affects the actual "spring rate" of the shock. This is key and one of the things that has confounded and/or angered the internet engineers. Linkage and other conventional methods of analysis simply do not have a way to even input these forces, much less simulate them.

    I have a mathematician/engineer/linkage freak friend. He's actually one of America's most prolific and successful race car designers. And therefore one of my heroes.

    He loves my linkage because he struggles to define it mathematically. He says it as a discontinuous equation with a random discontinuity. Solve THAT

  49. #749
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    ^^^ by horizontal bump forces, do you mean forces from hitting actual bumps such as rocks/roots out on the trail, or do you mean the pedaling inputs acting on the missing link?

    I hope the shockwiz is continually developed regarding linkage suspension.
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  50. #750
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    I imagine quarq should be able to record both wiz(es) and the.powermeter simultaneously and synchronized. Then it should be possible to filter out horizontal bump forces from the (horizontal) chain force since they should be seen as a significant pattern on flat ground.
    Inclination could be recorded manually or maybe by an inclinometer on the recording mobile phone strapped sideways to the frame.

    www.cyco.no

  51. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_joe View Post
    ^^^ by horizontal bump forces, do you mean forces from hitting actual bumps such as rocks/roots out on the trail, or do you mean the pedaling inputs acting on the missing link?

    I hope the shockwiz is continually developed regarding linkage suspension.
    From your avatar pic, I just want to hear you say "extraterrestials", just once.

    The most difficult thing to model/measure is the horizontal force to the rear when the wheel strikes a bump. This is the force that is translated thru the Missing Link, among other things, allowing the wheel to instantly respond to the bump, even under full power.

    Off the top of my head, a strain gauge on the CS might do the job. You would measure elongation of the stay under impact, could get tricky. Other than that, not really sure how you would do it.

    the pedaling input could be derived from crank data, but of course, that varies all over the place, both circularly and total effort. I used some generic crank data for my calcs, including some BMX start info where they are loading the cranks against the start gate.

  52. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I imagine quarq should be able to record both wiz(es) and the.powermeter simultaneously and synchronized. Then it should be possible to filter out horizontal bump forces from the (horizontal) chain force since they should be seen as a significant pattern on flat ground.
    Inclination could be recorded manually or maybe by an inclinometer on the recording mobile phone strapped sideways to the frame.

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    I don't think you could get any useful bump info from chain or crank forces.

    Really, now you are almost in the realm of a legitimate, multichannel data acquisiton system, which do exist and are available. I think I saw a Push rig with an 8 or 10 channel unit. Then you can measure whatever you want, provided you can find a sensor and place to mount it.

    Then, you could measure G-force vs shock stroke, for example. You could have an inclinometer, actual linear suspension travel AND velocity transducers. Get real fancy and put vertical and linear accelerometers on the wheels as well as frame.

    You could then overlay the information in pretty much any format you want to compare and study the data till your eyes go buggy looking at squiggly lines. You could tune the fork for less brake dive but better bump compliance by changing settings and looking at dive under braking compared to bump reaction. For example.

    It would be cool. I'm sure the info would help me refine not only the Missing Link, but everything as as well. But it is prohibitively expensive right now in both money and TIME.

    I have extensive experience with data acquisition in all forms, dating back to the earliest days of Audi, for the Trans Am effort in '88, we actually had a reel to reel tape recorder strapped to the floor, where is recorded real time analog signals from suspension and wheel speed transducers. It was hilarious, but it worked. Then a team of EE's would evaluate the voltage curves and tell us what the suspension was doing.

    It takes a high degree of time need to filter small gains. The majority of gains and tuning can be achieved by 1) a consistent section to test. 2) careful, back to back comparisons of settings. 3) FEEL.

    Feel is worth more than all the data in the world. Half the time data just gets in the way and causes confusion. Like it already has. You are saying it's the plushest next to a DH bike and Shockwiz is telling you it's too stiff. Ditch that thing. Use Strava. You know what data counts? Speed. You should be setting PR's on that thing in technical climbs, at least. Hell, you won't even need Strava. You'll just know you're climbing stuff easier and more consistently. And still lovin the DH.

    Trying to overthink this will be a problem. When I did the Magic Link bikes, I wanted to put a shift boot over the whole mess, to keep people from looking down trying to figure out if the link was moving in the "right" direction at the right time. Because I guarantee you I did it ALL the time while developing that bike. A little dangerous.

    Riding it on trails you know compared to other bikes you know is the best data out there. Trying to figure out if the shock is doing what you think it should be doing at a given time will drive you crazy. You will just feel and enjoy the effects instead.

    Funny you mention the phone strapped to the frame, but as camera to augment the gopro pointed at the shock from the TT, of which I have quite a few videos on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjlyimeL7yM&t=20s

    if any of you haven't seen them, I think it helps explain what's going on.

    back to frame building.............................

  53. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_joe View Post
    I hope the shockwiz is continually developed regarding linkage suspension.
    for this, they need some way to input your leverage ratio curve. If you had the raw data, you could do it.

  54. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    ≥>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Feel is worth more than all the data in the world. Half the time data just gets in the way and causes confusion. Like it already has. You are saying it's the plushest next to a DH bike and Shockwiz is telling you it's too stiff. Ditch that thing. Use Strava. You know what data counts? Speed. You should be setting PR's on that thing in technical climbs, at least. Hell, you won't even need Strava. You'll just know you're climbing stuff easier and more consistently. And still lovin the DH.

    Trying to overthink this will be a problem. When I did the Magic Link bikes, I wanted to put a shift boot over the whole mess, to keep people from looking down trying to figure out if the link was moving in the "right" direction at the right time. Because I guarantee you I did it ALL the time while developing that bike. A little dangerous.

    Riding it on trails you know compared to other bikes you know is the best data out there. Trying to figure out if the shock is doing what you think it should be doing at a given time will drive you crazy. You will just feel and enjoy the effects instead.


    <<<<<<<<<<<<<.............................
    Very good point Brian!
    A good example of what confusion interesting gizmos can get you into is that I just realised I've totally forgotten about setting the bladder pressure. I've never had a shock with that feature before. But even I did read about it in the setup manual, I overlooked it and went on with the wiz instead.
    Bladder pressure now turned out to be waaaaaaaaay below the recommended window of 170-200psi (as clearly printed highly visible on the piggy back)
    So not really a surprise I have experience unusually many pedal strikes under low to medium recistance/flat ground..
    Interestingly is that the linkage still have not been sagging when climbing. No pedal strikes what so ever, as soon as it got steep. Can't wait to get out again as soon as my cold and the company rain stops..

    www.cyco.no

  55. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Very good point Brian!
    A good example of what confusion interesting gizmos can get you into is that I just realised I've totally forgotten about setting the bladder pressure. I've never had a shock with that feature before. But even I did read about it in the setup manual, I overlooked it and went on with the wiz instead.
    Bladder pressure now turned out to be waaaaaaaaay below the recommended window of 170-200psi (as clearly printed highly visible on the piggy back)
    So not really a surprise I have experience unusually many pedal strikes under low to medium recistance/flat ground..
    Interestingly is that the linkage still have not been sagging when climbing. No pedal strikes what so ever, as soon as it got steep. Can't wait to get out again as soon as my cold and the company rain stops..

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    damn. Out of curiosity, what was it? I didn't even think to check it as it is supposed to come pre set. Sorry 'bout that. I'll mention to DVO as well.

    I'll add it to my pre-flight checklist.

    As for the linkage not sagging, if it gets steep enough, you could remove the shock entirely and it wouldn't sag....till you backed off...

  56. #756
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    I could be totally off base here... but perhaps the the bladder pressure was set low intentionally either as a work around or in conjunction with a revalve? Wouldn't pedal strikes be more a symptom of a spring rate not high enough?

  57. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    damn. Out of curiosity, what was it? I didn't even think to check it as it is supposed to come pre set. Sorry 'bout that. I'll mention to DVO as well.

    I'll add it to my pre-flight checklist.

    As for the linkage not sagging, if it gets steep enough, you could remove the shock entirely and it wouldn't sag....till you backed off...
    It was ~98psi (pressure lost in pump hose accounted for)

    And nothing to apologize for Brian! I signed the agreement to check everything to get my bike asap. I wonder if the depressurising and low temp on the flight to Eurobike could make air escape..

    EatsDirt:
    Im pretty sure I also need volume reducer which soon will be on its way along with a few other parts that were not available when I had the chance to get the bike delivered asap.. The bladder pressure suppose to shift the spring curve with out changing progressiveness. But I have read some comments about having it far too low will make the spring rate linear. I hope I'm in shape tomorrow to have a decent spin to feel the difference.

    www.cyco.no

  58. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I could be totally off base here... but perhaps the the bladder pressure was set low intentionally either as a work around or in conjunction with a revalve? Wouldn't pedal strikes be more a symptom of a spring rate not high enough?
    DVO says don't go below 170psi. Cavitation will occur otherwise. In that regard, not different from IFP pressure.

    But bladder pressure is also additive to the overall spring rate. Depending on how low, definitely noticeable.

    DVO also recommend going up to 200 psi for "heavier" riders, although I can't find where they define "heavier".

  59. #759
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    Blue on Black

    #5, ready to shipNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-blue-black-4.jpg

  60. #760
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    Black rocker thingy looks dope!
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    Name:  IMG_0442.JPG
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    I make this for u
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    Brian- should reach out to MTBR and see if you can hook up with them.

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  63. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Blue on Black

    #5, ready to shipClick image for larger version. 

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    Is there a visual way to tell a Meltdown from an Outburst? Besides the name...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Blue on Black

    #5, ready to shipClick image for larger version. 

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    Augenweide

  65. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post

    Feel is worth more than all the data in the world.
    This is driver talk right here, not engineer talk. I've watched engineers and drivers argue over settings before, with the engineer insisting setting A should work better, and driver insisting setting B feels better. In spite of all the number crunching in the world, as long as the driver thinks B feels better (and has enough data acquisition in the seat of his pants to be able to tell the difference) setting B will ALWAYS be faster because the driver is more confident with it.

    Which reminds me, I still need someone to explain to me why half the aero bits can fall off an F1 car and it seems like it turns better lap times than it did with all of the aero bits on it....

  66. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    as long as the driver thinks B feels better (and has enough data acquisition in the seat of his pants to be able to tell the difference) setting B will ALWAYS be faster because the driver is more confident with it.
    I've seen that one go both ways. Sadly, in my own racing, I never had anything so sophisticated to help, other than the SOTP Dyno (Seat Of The Pants) and lap charts.

    Which reminds me, I still need someone to explain to me why half the aero bits can fall off an F1 car and it seems like it turns better lap times than it did with all of the aero bits on it....
    Hee hee, I'm an engineer, but I still love seeing when that happens.

  67. #767
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    Pinned down by the perfect combo of heavy rain & fever Bored and depressed enough to not be able to ride my new friend, im taking the unusual and giant leap posting a photo of a very happy guy. It surely was a great and privilege moment to welcome production bike 1#!
    You will probably not believe me, but the color matching was totally unintentional. (LoL is allowed!) A good bike buddy of mine gave me the jacket because he (or was it girlfriend) said he did not use that color... Good at least the linkage and dropouts is not matching the shock!! :-)
    Initially I had settled for a black frame, but when Brian came up with the glowing Blood Redrum I changed my mind pretty quickly. Partially because I was ordering a medium since I'm a bit in-between sizes. Also i had a plan to hand the Medium bike over to my girlfriend as soon as more size options gets available. But then I changed my mind again after rideing a close to similar Reach frame with a slightly longer stem and moving the grips from silly 810 to 760mm that lets me pass most trees with ease, quickens up the steering and gives me a more relaxed positing that still works good "elbows out" in rough stuff at high speed thanx to the slack HTA when coasting..
    A big thanx to Brian who have managed to stay calm trough all this and his own tight schedule and other(s) changes of direction and everything else.... And then delivers a beautiful bike! even kitted up tubeless with latex! Never heard of that before.


    www.cyco.no

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    Congrats to you and Brian. I'd like to comment on how stunning the Blueberry and Redrum colors turned out. I can't even imagine how much better they appear in person. And an additional props on the matching linkage bolts...the whole frame is just visually stunning!

  69. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Augenweide
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    This is driver talk right here, not engineer talk. I've watched engineers and drivers argue over settings before, with the engineer insisting setting A should work better, and driver insisting setting B feels better. In spite of all the number crunching in the world, as long as the driver thinks B feels better (and has enough data acquisition in the seat of his pants to be able to tell the difference) setting B will ALWAYS be faster because the driver is more confident with it.

    Which reminds me, I still need someone to explain to me why half the aero bits can fall off an F1 car and it seems like it turns better lap times than it did with all of the aero bits on it....
    The Truth???!!!

    1) engineers are arrogant know it all assholes. It always killed me when race engineers would tell the driver they were driving the car wrong, or something like that. I made my mark as a driver's engineer. i would tell them I'd put the front wheels on the back and swap wings too if that's what made them go fast.

    BUTTTT, if the driver liked setting A but was slower than setting B, i'd get sarcastic and say "well it oughtta feel comfy going that slow". Especially for quali, where you gotta run a little "light", which is where the engineer (and driver) earn their keep. Learning how to get mechanical grip out of the car with springs and shocks, so you can run just a little lighter on downforce.

    The race is a little different. You are not running 11/10th, so a good driver can make up for a little deficiency in handling.

    But here's another reality about aero. Maybe it's aero's dirty little secret. What works in the wind tunnel doesn't always translate to the race track, for a multitude of reasons. It's impossible to wind tunnel test that car for all speeds and ride heights. And some things don't scale (reynold's number ).

    And sometimes, the windtunnel is just wrong. No, check that, the windtunnel is not wrong, the aero guy is. And just like the linkage program, the windtunnel is just a tool. The results must be interpreted by a human.

    As much as we want to think F1 aero guys and engineers, for example, are the top of their field, the reality is that it's just like any other walk of life, a few are exceptional, most are in some realm of average. The lower end of that average is not very good.

    Long answer to a short question. Good thing I cut myself short.

  71. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I've seen that one go both ways. Sadly, in my own racing, I never had anything so sophisticated to help, other than the SOTP Dyno (Seat Of The Pants) and lap charts.


    Hee hee, I'm an engineer, but I still love seeing when that happens.
    because engineers SHOULD love it when that happens, right?. It's no fun if everything is too predictable

  72. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-dale99 View Post
    Congrats to you and Brian. I'd like to comment on how stunning the Blueberry and Redrum colors turned out. I can't even imagine how much better they appear in person. And an additional props on the matching linkage bolts...the whole frame is just visually stunning!
    Mr, c-dale. Thank you so much. I think this means I've come a little ways since first introducing the design.

    Those colors are very beautiful and eye catching. I think, literally eye catching in person. They're deep, almost candy, like when they put a gold or silver basecoat and then translucent clearcoat. They are 2 coat, but just a base coat and clear. but the clear makes it look a mile deep.

    Props to my powdercoater, Pro Kote Indy, and Greg Clifton, the guy that did the graphics.

    Damn, I have to agree with you, that's a good looking bike!!

  73. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Brian- should reach out to MTBR and see if you can hook up with them.

    Long travel 29er shootout
    I'll probably have to wait for the next batch before I get into more mag testing. These bikes are spoken for by more important people than the press...And will probably help sell more bikes...

  74. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_joe View Post
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    I make this for u
    ancient astronaut theorists theorize that it's string theory.....between 4 and 6

  75. #775
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    Brian, any demo rides coming up?

    Any thought of doing a fat bike version in the future?

  76. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The Truth???!!!

    1) engineers are arrogant know it all assholes.
    Ouch. What's that they say about the truth hurts?

  77. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Ouch. What's that they say about the truth hurts?
    I include myself. at least a little bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Ouch. What's that they say about the truth hurts?
    ok, I was harsh, even on myself, How about CAN be arrogant assholes?

  79. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxer View Post
    Brian, any demo rides coming up?

    Any thought of doing a fat bike version in the future?
    After Interbike...and I get a few more frames shipped, I'll set up a little demo schedule. I'll announce it here and FB, etc.

    I'd like to show the eastern half of the U.S. a little love while the weather is still good. lots of good riding with in a days drive of Indy.

    I do like this RedruM

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-redrum4.jpg

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    Frames really look good, colors are really vibrant. Sure wish DVO would offer their anodizing in other colors or at least black.

  81. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    ok, I was harsh, even on myself, How about CAN be arrogant assholes?
    I'm surrounded by thousands of them every day, and I are one. We most definitely CAN be.

    Referring back to F1, when I hear the radio conversations, I'm surprised that we don't hear a lot more of the drivers saying "Shut the hell up already!" than we do. I know as a driver, that's what I'd be saying!

  82. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The Truth???!!!

    1) engineers are arrogant know it all assholes. It always killed me when race engineers would tell the driver they were driving the car wrong, or something like that. I made my mark as a driver's engineer. i would tell them I'd put the front wheels on the back and swap wings too if that's what made them go fast.

    BUTTTT, if the driver liked setting A but was slower than setting B, i'd get sarcastic and say "well it oughtta feel comfy going that slow". Especially for quali, where you gotta run a little "light", which is where the engineer (and driver) earn their keep. Learning how to get mechanical grip out of the car with springs and shocks, so you can run just a little lighter on downforce.

    The race is a little different. You are not running 11/10th, so a good driver can make up for a little deficiency in handling.

    But here's another reality about aero. Maybe it's aero's dirty little secret. What works in the wind tunnel doesn't always translate to the race track, for a multitude of reasons. It's impossible to wind tunnel test that car for all speeds and ride heights. And some things don't scale (reynold's number ).

    And sometimes, the windtunnel is just wrong. No, check that, the windtunnel is not wrong, the aero guy is. And just like the linkage program, the windtunnel is just a tool. The results must be interpreted by a human.

    As much as we want to think F1 aero guys and engineers, for example, are the top of their field, the reality is that it's just like any other walk of life, a few are exceptional, most are in some realm of average. The lower end of that average is not very good.

    Long answer to a short question. Good thing I cut myself short.
    I've successfully derailed us again. Yes, I've seen excuses about calibrations being off in wind tunnels, and of course now they use CFD to pull a lot of this stuff off to reduce the wind tunnel load, and we all know nothing can foul things up like putting a computer in the mix.

    A mechanic/engineer once asked me why the car I was racing kept overheating. I told him the radiator obviously wasn't large enough. He complained about the amount of time I spent at full throttle. I told him if I had to baby the car, I'd go borrow my grandmother's Buick. The team owner thought I was hilarious. The mechanic/engineer ....not so much. He started listing reasons why the car had to be babied in this particular instance - thin air due to elevation, low speed turns reducing air flow. I pointed out that the only reason I was there was to drive a test car (next year's race model) and work the bugs out of it. He threw up his hands and went to get a bigger radiator, all the while complaining that the intercooler wouldn't get enough air behind the larger unit, etc, etc. - but eventually, he did get it sorted out.

    My point is, he thought he knew how much cooling the engine would need based on some average numbers, but he failed to account for a worst case scenario. I think they ended up running that car the next year in two specs - one with a smaller radiator and lower cooling system capacity for a little lighter weight (and presumably, more power due to better charge-air cooling) and one with the larger higher capacity for a couple of races that had a lot of low speed turns and consequently, a lot of full throttle acceleration coming out. The team owner loved working with me. The engineer/mechanic things I'm a lead footed neanderthal to this day.

  83. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Ouch. What's that they say about the truth hurts?
    AHah, keep in mind he said that in a response to me, who he also knows to be a bit of an as...I mean, I'm also an engineer.

  84. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I've successfully derailed us again. Yes, I've seen excuses about calibrations being off in wind tunnels, and of course now they use CFD to pull a lot of this stuff off to reduce the wind tunnel load, and we all know nothing can foul things up like putting a computer in the mix.

    A mechanic/engineer once asked me why the car I was racing kept overheating. I told him the radiator obviously wasn't large enough. He complained about the amount of time I spent at full throttle. I told him if I had to baby the car, I'd go borrow my grandmother's Buick. The team owner thought I was hilarious. The mechanic/engineer ....not so much. He started listing reasons why the car had to be babied in this particular instance - thin air due to elevation, low speed turns reducing air flow. I pointed out that the only reason I was there was to drive a test car (next year's race model) and work the bugs out of it. He threw up his hands and went to get a bigger radiator, all the while complaining that the intercooler wouldn't get enough air behind the larger unit, etc, etc. - but eventually, he did get it sorted out.

    My point is, he thought he knew how much cooling the engine would need based on some average numbers, but he failed to account for a worst case scenario. I think they ended up running that car the next year in two specs - one with a smaller radiator and lower cooling system capacity for a little lighter weight (and presumably, more power due to better charge-air cooling) and one with the larger higher capacity for a couple of races that had a lot of low speed turns and consequently, a lot of full throttle acceleration coming out. The team owner loved working with me. The engineer/mechanic things I'm a lead footed neanderthal to this day.
    OMG this is painfully familiar. I'll leave it at that. But it was a good, sympathetic laugh.

  85. #785
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    Brian, are you going to provide some guidance on how to setup the rear shock(s)? I am specifically curious if you recommend any air bands in either chamber on the Topaz? I was actually planning on renting a shockwiz to get mine suspension dialled in because there are more tuning options than I am used to.

  86. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I'm surrounded by thousands of them every day, and I are one. We most definitely CAN be.

    Referring back to F1, when I hear the radio conversations, I'm surprised that we don't hear a lot more of the drivers saying "Shut the hell up already!" than we do. I know as a driver, that's what I'd be saying!
    Seriously, some of those F1 race engineers don't have a clue about driving. I love it when Kimi says "leave me alone, I know what I'm doing", or when they told Lewis if he didn't speed up, he would get passed, and he said something to the effect of "I believe I'm leading and in control".

    Sad fact is many race engineers/designers don't really appreciate the driver, bottom line. Since I was a driver/rider/racer, I had a good appreciation. Not that I was unique in that aspect, but it wasn't the norm.

  87. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I've successfully derailed us again. Yes, I've seen excuses about calibrations being off in wind tunnels, and of course now they use CFD to pull a lot of this stuff off to reduce the wind tunnel load, and we all know nothing can foul things up like putting a computer in the mix.

    A mechanic/engineer once asked me why the car I was racing kept overheating. I told him the radiator obviously wasn't large enough. He complained about the amount of time I spent at full throttle. I told him if I had to baby the car, I'd go borrow my grandmother's Buick. The team owner thought I was hilarious. The mechanic/engineer ....not so much. He started listing reasons why the car had to be babied in this particular instance - thin air due to elevation, low speed turns reducing air flow. I pointed out that the only reason I was there was to drive a test car (next year's race model) and work the bugs out of it. He threw up his hands and went to get a bigger radiator, all the while complaining that the intercooler wouldn't get enough air behind the larger unit, etc, etc. - but eventually, he did get it sorted out.

    My point is, he thought he knew how much cooling the engine would need based on some average numbers, but he failed to account for a worst case scenario. I think they ended up running that car the next year in two specs - one with a smaller radiator and lower cooling system capacity for a little lighter weight (and presumably, more power due to better charge-air cooling) and one with the larger higher capacity for a couple of races that had a lot of low speed turns and consequently, a lot of full throttle acceleration coming out. The team owner loved working with me. The engineer/mechanic things I'm a lead footed neanderthal to this day.
    Do I have to start another thread "Mountain bikers that race cars"??

    The cooling thing is classic aero arrogance. Or ignorance. My first job in BTMR (big time motor racing) was at Group 44. A class organization running factory Jags in IMSA GTP. We used the stockblock V-12, which was a giant heat sink. The arrogant designer once told the engine guy "the engine makes too much heat".

    We ended up using giant "elephant ears" on the rad ducts to keep temps below 250 F at Road Atlanta. Desinger was fired and I went and stuck big rads in. One aero guy called my new design the "rolling radiator".

    At Nissan, in '91, the new car I inherited was super slippery. No cooling, no downforce. At the start of the year we were getting our ass handed to us by Jag, Toy, Intrepid/Chevy. I went and dirtied the car up inn the windtunnel and we finished first and second in the championship. Beating the new Jag team, who basically had an F1 car in sports car clothing, that took the Jag deal from Group 44. Ya. Just saying. In your face TWR

  88. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian, are you going to provide some guidance on how to setup the rear shock(s)? I am specifically curious if you recommend any air bands in either chamber on the Topaz? I was actually planning on renting a shockwiz to get mine suspension dialled in because there are more tuning options than I am used to.
    Yes. Right now, I'm running 5 bands in the pos chamber, out of a possible 6. I think more might be better, especially if you are a crusher. I'm gonna play around further.

    But no sense in putting bands in the Neg chamber. The reduces the effect.

    25-30% sag if you're a crusher, 30-35% if you ride a little lighter.

  89. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I love it when Kimi says "leave me alone, I know what I'm doing"
    I liked it so much I bought the sticker.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-kimi.jpg  


  90. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Do I have to start another thread "Mountain bikers that race cars"??
    Maybe. Though my Spec Miata isn't very spectacular, rotting away in my garage...

    My first job in BTMR (big time motor racing) was at Group 44. A class organization running factory Jags in IMSA GTP.
    Brian, a young CTB was in the stands at Nelson and Mid Ohio watching Group 44, and I remember the V12 GTP days fondly. We must have been at the track at the same time. I have fading memories of Bob Tullius driving the E-Type at Nelson, as well as the other Group 44 cars (TR6, MG's, etc.), and then of course the GTP Jags. My dad and I cheered on the V12 Jags every lap.

    This is the car I remember best:

    Gallery: 1984 Jaguar XJR-5 IMSA GTP - Motorsport Retro

  91. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    30-35% if you ride a little lighter.
    That's me. Wow, I'll keep this in mind when I set mine up. I'm 165 with gear right now (which is fat for me) and ride pretty light.

  92. #792
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    Today the sun finally got to dry things up again and I could no longer stay at rest. So in the name of science I declared myself fit enough to go out to see how different the shock performes on correct bladder pressure.
    I managed to keep decent speed for close to 1km along the technical trail before the fever caught up with me again. But that*distance was enough to confirme bladder pressure makes a diffetence! The shock still feels sensetive and plush as before. But noticeable better support. No wallow at all. And even I tried to push it and pedal as much as possible also in corners, I did not get one single pedal strikes where I before had many. I managed to barely touch one single root when I were expecting to strike hard..

    Also the Shockwiz seems to agree things have changed since most of its suggestions now was different and some were opposite on the scale from the last readings. I need a longer ride with allot more up and down then what I got*just across the river from my house to know if the pedal strike issues are solved, or if I also need some volume reducers.

    Brian. Do you know if there is any reducers at all installed from the factory?

    As we have agree it will probably not make much sense to use the Shockwis until they can tweak the software to understand the more advanced use of forces in the Missinglink, compare to more traditional linkages.

    I will ride the local bike park next weekend. Going flat and DH should not confuse the ShockWiz as the efficient geo/sag*adjustment only activates when climbing. So suggestions from the Wiz after readings with only coasting dh should be reliable, if I have not missed something essential...



    www.cyco.no

  93. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I liked it so much I bought the sticker.
    I wonder if Kimi gets a cheque for each sticker sold. For sure, Bernie does.

    I was lucky. My first race car drivers were Tullius, Hurley Haywood, Brian Redman, Hans Stuck, Walter Rohrl. Total consummate pros. They told me what they needed to hear. Otherwise, I left 'em alone because they knew what they were doing.

  94. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Maybe. Though my Spec Miata isn't very spectacular, rotting away in my garage...


    Brian, a young CTB was in the stands at Nelson and Mid Ohio watching Group 44, and I remember the V12 GTP days fondly. We must have been at the track at the same time. I have fading memories of Bob Tullius driving the E-Type at Nelson, as well as the other Group 44 cars (TR6, MG's, etc.), and then of course the GTP Jags. My dad and I cheered on the V12 Jags every lap.

    This is the car I remember best:

    Gallery: 1984 Jaguar XJR-5 IMSA GTP - Motorsport Retro
    Side note. My good friend, drummer in my band, renter of my 100 acre future site of mtb/music festival, also happens to run AIM tuning, a well known local spec Miata builder......

    I never raced Nelson with gp44. Just my ITB Fiat spider. Dual podium....that is a manly track.

    I went at the end of '85. XJR-5 out, XJR-7 inNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-gp-44-1-w-t.jpg

  95. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Today the sun finally got to dry things up again and I could no longer stay at rest. So in the name of science I declared myself fit enough to go out to see how different the shock performes on correct bladder pressure.
    I managed to keep decent speed for close to 1km along the technical trail before the fever caught up with me again. But that*distance was enough to confirme bladder pressure makes a diffetence! The shock still feels sensetive and plush as before. But noticeable better support. No wallow at all. And even I tried to push it and pedal as much as possible also in corners, I did not get one single pedal strikes where I before had many. I managed to barely touch one single root when I were expecting to strike hard..

    Also the Shockwiz seems to agree things have changed since most of its suggestions now was different and some were opposite on the scale from the last readings. I need a longer ride with allot more up and down then what I got*just across the river from my house to know if the pedal strike issues are solved, or if I also need some volume reducers.

    Brian. Do you know if there is any reducers at all installed from the factory?

    As we have agree it will probably not make much sense to use the Shockwis until they can tweak the software to understand the more advanced use of forces in the Missinglink, compare to more traditional linkages.

    I will ride the local bike park next weekend. Going flat and DH should not confuse the ShockWiz as the efficient geo/sag*adjustment only activates when climbing. So suggestions from the Wiz after readings with only coasting dh should be reliable, if I have not missed something essential...



    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    Glad to hear the pedal strikes are gone. I wanted to keep the BB as low as possible for handling (like everyone else) knowing that under hard pedaling, the BB will be higher.

    Right now, you have 5 volume bands, out of a possible 6, in the outer pos chamber. Zero inside.

    Even on coasting, the shock wiz will not be able to differentiate Missing Link assisted bump response. Because that is different than a response to a pure vertical input, say, landing a jump. Unlike any other bike

  96. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I wonder if Kimi gets a cheque for each sticker sold. For sure, Bernie does.
    Those stickers were bootlegs. Don't tell Bernie.

    I was lucky. My first race car drivers were Tullius, Hurley Haywood, Brian Redman, Hans Stuck, Walter Rohrl.
    OMG, that's a who's who of my revered drivers (I don't call them "heroes;" that's the subject of something I wrote a few years ago, so we'll leave that alone). I shook hands with Hurley at Rennsport in 2015; was *this* close to Redman at Rennsport in 2011. Got some good pics of Hans at 2015. I've never met Walter, but I regard him extremely highly - as a wide-eyed kid watching Group B on TV, I thought those guys were amazing. I just realized that I also saw the Trans Am and GTO Audis at Mid Ohio (i.e. this list of drivers you worked with, and why we went in the first place), so potentially another time I might have been at the track at the same time.

    Great stuff.

  97. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Side note. My good friend, drummer in my band, renter of my 100 acre future site of mtb/music festival, also happens to run AIM tuning, a well known local spec Miata builder......

    I never raced Nelson with gp44. Just my ITB Fiat spider. Dual podium....that is a manly track.
    If you start that "bikers who race" thread, I might share my Youtube of my "favorite" race at Nelson. Due to race control error (which was upheld in my protest), it was a 26th-to-7th run in the money race. Money was paid through 5th, which is where I had qualified and should have started...Anyhoo.

  98. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Those stickers were bootlegs. Don't tell Bernie.



    OMG, that's a who's who of my revered drivers (I don't call them "heroes;" that's the subject of something I wrote a few years ago, so we'll leave that alone). I shook hands with Hurley at Rennsport in 2015; was *this* close to Redman at Rennsport in 2011. Got some good pics of Hans at 2015. I've never met Walter, but I regard him extremely highly - as a wide-eyed kid watching Group B on TV, I thought those guys were amazing. I just realized that I also saw the Trans Am and GTO Audis at Mid Ohio (i.e. this list of drivers you worked with, and why we went in the first place), so potentially another time I might have been at the track at the same time.

    Great stuff.
    Important to separate the talent form the person......But those guys were all at the top of the driver game. Walter was the best I ever worked with. Period. Soooo many stories about him...Hans was the most fun....He had Hurley's rental car put up on 55 gallon drums while were at dinner at Watkins Glen. Hurley had to beg a ride to the airport. If you saw Audi trans Am or GTO cars race, I was there. Chief Engineer of those programs. Pretty sure we won Mid-Ohio every time we went.

  99. #799
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    I know paying customers waiting for their bikes won't like this, but, in between building your bikes, I have to build a couple show bikes for Interbike. Working on my wife's.

    This is her color combo of choice. Note: I won't say color wy. Who comes up with these words?

    Size SNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-purple-haze-s.jpg

  100. #800
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    ^^^ omg that is awesome
    2008 BMC Fourstroke 19-559 ISO (RIP in peace)
    2017 BMC Speedfox 25-622 ISO
    2017 Salsa Timberjack 40-584 ISO

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