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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Sounds like a killer suspension design. I feel it's a shame that one of the big boys with big resources didn't pay the licensing costs for this rear suspension design. Several of them really need the help quite frankly.

    The great thing about globalization and Asian manufacturing is that Tantrum can soon have the ability to manufacturer his own CF frames utilizing these outfits.

    I really wish him luck and hope's he makes enough that he can spend a few hours every day riding his bikes!
    Thanks Sun,

    Don't worry about me getting resources. It will happen. There are a lot of people waiting to see what happens with this. They are only gonna move if they have to.

    They will have to.

    Working on CF for the future, but it's not my priority. And for sure, I will keep up with aluminum. Why? So more people can afford to ride my bike. And aluminum makes a pretty nice bike.

    As for your last point, here's the beauty...I am now a Professional Mountain Biker.

    I have been on so many awesome rides on my "demo tour". And I lot more winter riding, too. If I couldn't ride...........

  2. #302
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    Has anyone been able to ride the 29/27.5 wheeled combo dubbed the "Outdown"? It reminds me of the Foes Mixer but with a way better suspension design. Looks like it could be fun with a front roll over of a 29er but with the turning and playfulness of a 27.5.

  3. #303
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    Hey Brian, I didn't ask when I saw you, but what's the plan for dropout width going forward? Boost?

  4. #304
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    When will the people who've ordered start getting bikes delivered?

  5. #305
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    Brian about 2 weeks ago I sent you a PM and an email to your webpage. If you get a chance could you check and give me a reply ?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Hey Brian, I didn't ask when I saw you, but what's the plan for dropout width going forward? Boost?
    From previous posts it looks like standard is boost spacing but a 12x142 is an option

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    From previous posts it looks like standard is boost spacing but a 12x142 is an option
    Yes, that's what Brian told me offline. The KS survey asked what kind of axle you wanted, and 12x148 was listed as "standard" unless you picked something else.

  8. #308
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    Thanks

  9. #309
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    I also requested 12x142 29er and 12x142 27.5 dropouts with mine, so hopefully I'll have all kinds of options.

  10. #310
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    Hey, I just looked at my survey again and this was the wording:

    What dropouts do you want for the rear wheel? NOTE, Unless the results of this survey indicate otherwise, 29ers come with 148 standard, while 27.5 come with 142

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    Has anyone been able to ride the 29/27.5 wheeled combo dubbed the "Outdown"? It reminds me of the Foes Mixer but with a way better suspension design. Looks like it could be fun with a front roll over of a 29er but with the turning and playfulness of a 27.5.
    I'm the only one that rode that bike. I brought it to Sea Otter last year, but raced the Meltdown instead, mostly because I had it in Race mode with 64 degree HT and I knew it better. Probably would've done exactly the same on the Downburst.

    My feeling was it had better handling than the Outburst 29er, but retained the rollover. Oh, wait, you already said that. Also, with 160 mm rear travel, it could go thru the rock garden better, even with the 27.5.

    The rollover makes much more difference in the front, while the smaller rear just means it "completes" corners easier, better. It's probably just as nimble as the Meltdown.

    But I didn't get enough time on it to say whether I liked it more or not. Maybe with a 150-160 fork (I had a 140 on it).

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Hey, I just looked at my survey again and this was the wording:

    What dropouts do you want for the rear wheel? NOTE, Unless the results of this survey indicate otherwise, 29ers come with 148 standard, while 27.5 come with 142
    This is correct. For initial production, the standard DO will be 142 fr 27.5 and 148 for 29. But 27.5 x 148 will be available and, 29 x 142. I know there are a lot of $3000 142 wheelsets out there.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    When will the people who've ordered start getting bikes delivered?
    We are still on "schedule" for late April/May for the first frames.

    Actually, I will have the first frames in each size in Mar, but those will not go to customers. They will be to check everything and destructive testing.

    Complete bikes are on a May/June schedule, just because.....

    I will be able to firm this up soon, once we actually start welding. Lots of part to make first.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    and destructive testing.
    Now that's something I'd like a peek at. And numbers on. And a good idea what they mean in terms of real world riding. I've seen the Pink Bike/Santa Cruz carbon vs aluminum thing, and figure that's the sort of testing we're talking about, but I'd love to see numbers, and understand how far that goes toward ...well, not breaking the frame based on how I ride. Unlike my current bike.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Now that's something I'd like a peek at. And numbers on. And a good idea what they mean in terms of real world riding. I've seen the Pink Bike/Santa Cruz carbon vs aluminum thing, and figure that's the sort of testing we're talking about, but I'd love to see numbers, and understand how far that goes toward ...well, not breaking the frame based on how I ride. Unlike my current bike.
    Their testing was more for show IMO. Even my LBS said they see more chainstay damage than anything else. Someone slips their rear off a rock and the chainstay clips the rock and cracks it. Other is when people bottom out the suspension on big hits which again those test don't really replicate. I also wonder how the lower shock mount will hold up as most seem to use a through bolt. If you repeatedly bottom out will it place great stress on the threads and strip them out?

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidConejo View Post
    I also wonder how the lower shock mount will hold up as most seem to use a through bolt. If you repeatedly bottom out will it place great stress on the threads and strip them out?
    Not sure I understand your concern. What shock isn't mounted with a bolt? Also, so many suspensions use through bolts at linkages.
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  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Now that's something I'd like a peek at. And numbers on. And a good idea what they mean in terms of real world riding. I've seen the Pink Bike/Santa Cruz carbon vs aluminum thing, and figure that's the sort of testing we're talking about, but I'd love to see numbers, and understand how far that goes toward ...well, not breaking the frame based on how I ride. Unlike my current bike.
    I'll see if I can sneak a vid of the cycles to failure test. That's the one that'll scare the shit out of you. And there's a reason it's done inside a blast cage.

    basically, attach rams to the HT, dropouts, bb and sT and distort the hell out of it for a min of 100k cycles. It's the fatigue life we are typically just as, if not more worried about. Rarely will a halfway decent designed part fail in one hit. even if the final blow broke it, chances are, it had some fatigue already.

    while the PB demo was cool, it didn't have too much relevance to real world riding. Drop to flat mighta been better. I suspect they may have chosen a test that made CF look it's best.

    My biggest concern about CF is delamination. The tendency over time for the layers of carbon to separate from one another. In F1/Indycars, you can see the effects of a season of racing by doing a torsion test on the chassis before and after. And then you make it a show car, because it stops responding as well to chassis changes and handling becomes inconsistent and yes, it'll get dangerous in a crash.

    Don't take this as a slam on carbon, aluminum certainly has a fatigue life as well, although, as you saw in the PB video, being a more ductile material, the failures can be less violent.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I'll see if I can sneak a vid of the cycles to failure test. That's the one that'll scare the shit out of you. And there's a reason it's done inside a blast cage.

    basically, attach rams to the HT, dropouts, bb and sT and distort the hell out of it for a min of 100k cycles. It's the fatigue life we are typically just as, if not more worried about. Rarely will a halfway decent designed part fail in one hit. even if the final blow broke it, chances are, it had some fatigue already.
    Right. I've broken multiple frames, some due to what we'll call "normal fatigue" and some due to what we'll call "repetitive abnormal fatigue inducing events" (like hucking the crap out of light weight XC stuff that isn't designed to be hucked). I think the cycles to failure test would be fascinating.

  19. #319
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    Well...I'm in !

    Planning to get the "Shining", 160mm 29'er.
    Now that they've updated the Specialized E29, this is the only long travel 29'er that can still take an FD.
    Oh, and it also has an innovative holy grail suspension linkage design ? I guess that's intriguing too. I have to admit though, leaving a carbon frame behind will make me sad. Even if my E29 is really only half carbon.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Right. I've broken multiple frames, some due to what we'll call "normal fatigue" and some due to what we'll call "repetitive abnormal fatigue inducing events" (like hucking the crap out of light weight XC stuff that isn't designed to be hucked). I think the cycles to failure test would be fascinating.
    I would like to think my frames would not fail under normal fatigue.......or even abnormal fatigue inducing events. but everything has it's limit.

    Having met and ridden with you, I'm thinking some of that damage occurred before you realized you would put DH stresses on an XC bike in large part, due to largeness.

    But, my opinion is that any frame in the "trailbike" or "enduro"
    category should be able to take it, even from heavier riders. That's why I spec'd a DH level downtube thickness on this bike.

    Then, your parts build will determine the rest of it. I have one customer at 120 pounds that is coming up with a 25 pound build and it will last forever.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Well...I'm in !

    Planning to get the "Shining", 160mm 29'er.
    Now that they've updated the Specialized E29, this is the only long travel 29'er that can still take an FD.
    Oh, and it also has an innovative holy grail suspension linkage design ? I guess that's intriguing too. I have to admit though, leaving a carbon frame behind will make me sad. Even if my E29 is really only half carbon.
    hey Preston, welcome and thank you.

    If it helps on the carbon issue, almost everyone that demos the bike mentions how light it feels, especially on the climbs, even at 30 pounds for the not particularly light build on the demos. And this is coming form people that, for the most part, are coming off carbon bikes and wheels, i.e., 26-7 pound builds.

  22. #322
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    everyone,

    A question was asked as a PM that I thought would be better answered here, about rear axle.

    Here is the answer: each dropout width will require a dedicated axle, specific to that width, 142 for 142, 148 for 148

  23. #323
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    I posted this question in different thread as well:

    Brian or any others who have demoed a Meltdown, a couple of questions:

    With the changed Geo (i.e.) shorter chainstays, on the production frames how is the playfulness of the bike? I'm not a hucker, anything >5' drop and I'll probably bail (can't work with a broken arm) but I like to hit any natural transitions, doubles, jumps, and what not. I've ridden a 2015 SC Nomad and it bombed the downhills but it didn't have the playfullness I was looking for, and it didn't climb like I want.

    Also with the DVO and X-fusion shock being specifically dampnened for this frame set-up will most of the companies and shops that rebuild suspesnion be able to work on the shock without screwing up all the work you've done to make this bike what it is?

    Thanks

  24. #324
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    I'm already getting nervous not hearing from Brian for a week !

    Joking more or less. However I think it might be a good idea if the early funders have a way to stay in touch outside of a public forum. If anyone has a good idea (does gofundme have a system maybe ?) put it out there.

    Otherwise if you want to pm me I'd be willing to maintain a list of email addresses for the time being.

    Brian I think it would be great if you emailed us or posted every 2 weeks or so or updated your website regularly even if its just "waiting for molds" or "frames being welded" even better with some progress photos. May seems so far away right now.

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    .... and with the Atlantic in between even more far.

  26. #326
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    Nothing to worry about.
    I have sendt several mails to Brian with many questions, inputs and ideas even since before Kickstarter.
    He have always responded what I have expected a response on. And many times much longer and deeper going then I've hoped fore. Sometimes it have taken many weeks when he's been traveling or overloaded and had to focus on the process.
    I think many of us are very spoiled to expect everyone to be online 24/7 to respond and share information straight away.
    I'm sure Brian are doing his best to adapt to today's I formation pace. But at the moment I prefer he focus 100% on constructing the best possible bikes he can. It's the outcome that counts after all..

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  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I'm already getting nervous not hearing from Brian for a week !

    Joking more or less. However I think it might be a good idea if the early funders have a way to stay in touch outside of a public forum. If anyone has a good idea (does gofundme have a system maybe ?) put it out there.

    Otherwise if you want to pm me I'd be willing to maintain a list of email addresses for the time being.

    Brian I think it would be great if you emailed us or posted every 2 weeks or so or updated your website regularly even if its just "waiting for molds" or "frames being welded" even better with some progress photos. May seems so far away right now.
    Pretty sure I saw him running into a Las Vegas casino carrying bags of cash.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Pretty sure I saw him running into a Las Vegas casino carrying bags of cash.
    Are you really sure he was running? He told me he was riding...

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  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    I posted this question in different thread as well:

    Brian or any others who have demoed a Meltdown, a couple of questions:

    With the changed Geo (i.e.) shorter chainstays, on the production frames how is the playfulness of the bike? I'm not a hucker, anything >5' drop and I'll probably bail (can't work with a broken arm) but I like to hit any natural transitions, doubles, jumps, and what not. I've ridden a 2015 SC Nomad and it bombed the downhills but it didn't have the playfullness I was looking for, and it didn't climb like I want.

    Also with the DVO and X-fusion shock being specifically dampnened for this frame set-up will most of the companies and shops that rebuild suspesnion be able to work on the shock without screwing up all the work you've done to make this bike what it is?

    Thanks
    Hi Guys, I'm here. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the forums, etc. And sometimes I think I should back off a little........

    As for "playfulness", I would anticipate easier change of direction and ability to manual (shorter CS), with more stability (slacker rake). These changes have actually been tested "somewhat", although not in this exact configuration, so I'm pretty confident in the outcome.

    As for the shock question, in either case did we fundamentally change the internals of the shock, basically just the compression valving, essentially shims. Nothing special on the shims either, just standard shims in a different configuration.

    On another note, I've been testing a "standard" shock from another well known company and it works pretty good as delivered (with std "soft" cd package), even if it still has the redundant lockout switch.

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I'm already getting nervous not hearing from Brian for a week !

    Joking more or less. However I think it might be a good idea if the early funders have a way to stay in touch outside of a public forum. If anyone has a good idea (does gofundme have a system maybe ?) put it out there.

    Otherwise if you want to pm me I'd be willing to maintain a list of email addresses for the time being.

    Brian I think it would be great if you emailed us or posted every 2 weeks or so or updated your website regularly even if its just "waiting for molds" or "frames being welded" even better with some progress photos. May seems so far away right now.
    Preston and all backers, the best way is my tantrum email. but when I'm traveling, I can fall behind a few days. This goes double for forums. Pm's in particular, can get lost in the shuffle.

    I will post some updates on the website, facebook and the KS site. I'm organizing some help to keep up with that stuff. Right now, everyone is getting back to work after chinese new year celebrations, which basically shut things down for a week or so. But parts are being made, tubes being mitered. Welding won't happen any time soon, but I will have a more detailed schedule once the return from CNY gets settled in the next few days.

    The first frames will be samples in all sizes and destructive test samples. I'll be really excited to see those.

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Pretty sure I saw him running into a Las Vegas casino carrying bags of cash.
    pshhhh, I figured I need at least a million to retire to an island with a girl that didn't speak english.......

    Did I get it!!!? No. Now I have to make bikes. Not a bad consolation prize.

  32. #332
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    Brian or anyone else who might already have the answer: what is the Head Tube length? I am looking at getting a used fork for my shinning frame and want to make sure I get one that is long enough. Thanks in advance.

  33. #333
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    Most probably it has been said already, but now I can´t find it: is the shox in a new metric size or in a old size?

  34. #334
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    This is from a message Brian sent me through Kickstarter:

    shock length is 200 x 57 on the Meltdown and 190 x 50 on the Outburst.

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    This is from a message Brian sent me through Kickstarter:
    Just to add to it- here are all the combinations he's working on as far as I know

    "....shock size 200 x 57 for 160 mm, 184.15 (7.25) x 44.45 (1.75) for 125 mm. For the proto 140, I am using a 190 x 50.

    The 180 will use a 215 x 63.5, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves."

    At the time the 140mm was a prototype- but it now a travel that's offered.

    Obviously depends on the linkage as well - the 140mm bike will use the 125mm linkage.
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  36. #336
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    Thanks for that update. So my 125mm 29er will be a 7.25x1.75 then.

  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian or anyone else who might already have the answer: what is the Head Tube length? I am looking at getting a used fork for my shinning frame and want to make sure I get one that is long enough. Thanks in advance.
    hi keo,

    HT size is 120 for S and M, 130 for L.

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    for my shinning frame
    So tempting to name it that in honor of groundskeeper willie

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Most probably it has been said already, but now I can´t find it: is the shox in a new metric size or in a old size?
    As stated, these bikes use (still) "standard" (whatever in the history of the word that means).

    As metric shocks become more common and available ad more importantly, the trunion shocks, they will be incorporated. At he moment, metric shocks don't package as well as existing (length to stroke), but the trunion shock will be better for my purposes. It will eventually eliminate the need for the hole in the DT, even though the shock position/angle will remain the same (or similar).

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Thanks for that update. So my 125mm 29er will be a 7.25x1.75 then.
    yes

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    So with this design the key is for the missing link or the two linkages connecting to the top of the shock to stay near vertical? It seems like setting sag thus becomes critical and we can only run a fixed % in order to main the alignment of the links?

    In fact can we even have any real amount of sag? What happens when the shock extends? I suck at geometry so what happens if you're riding along and hit a dip. Does that cause the linkage to bend and compress the shock like it would if it hit a bump? It can't possibly extend further.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    So with this design the key is for the missing link or the two linkages connecting to the top of the shock to stay near vertical? It seems like setting sag thus becomes critical and we can only run a fixed % in order to main the alignment of the links?

    In fact can we even have any real amount of sag? What happens when the shock extends? I suck at geometry so what happens if you're riding along and hit a dip. Does that cause the linkage to bend and compress the shock like it would if it hit a bump? It can't possibly extend further.
    Nope. You've missed it. I think these bikes actually set up with 30 or 35% sag (it's been discussed in this thread somewhere) and are very plush and have quit a lot of "negative travel" (ie room for the shock to extend). The key with the links getting close to vertical is when enough pedaling force is applied to pull the linkage into that position (climbing), then you have a very solid pedaling platform, but the way the linkages are set up if you hit something, it's still very soft and gives you loads of traction, then ramps back up into that solid pedaling platform almost seamlessly.

    You have two things going on: You don't entirely understand what's going on here (how the design is supposed to work - though you do kind of have part of it down) and you sound very skeptical. As someone who has ridden this design, I can tell you it's absolutely everything it claims to be, which in my experience is pretty unusual for the bike industry. Or any other industry, for that matter. My advice to you: see if you can make it to a demo and get a leg over one of these bikes. Brian has built a system that pretty much has to be ridden to be believed.

  43. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    So with this design the key is for the missing link or the two linkages connecting to the top of the shock to stay near vertical? It seems like setting sag thus becomes critical and we can only run a fixed % in order to main the alignment of the links?

    In fact can we even have any real amount of sag? What happens when the shock extends? I suck at geometry so what happens if you're riding along and hit a dip. Does that cause the linkage to bend and compress the shock like it would if it hit a bump? It can't possibly extend further.
    Cotharyus is correct. The bikes normally rides at whatever static sag you set, 30-35% being nice. Only when climbing does the action of the force on the chainstay push forward on the lower end of the Missing Link hard enough to extend the shock. This force, combined with the unfavorable transmission angle of the links, conspire to keep the shock extended, giving the unlimited platform and ALSO, steeper geometry, which aids tremendously.

    When the wheel encounters a bump, that force pushing the chainstay forward is momentarily counteracted by the bump force pushing the wheel and chainstay rearward. now, since the shock is actually at the beginning of it's stroke, the spring force is low and with the assist of the Missing Link momentarily rotating to compress the shock, the bump is absorbed easily.

    Rinse and repeat as needed.

    As for the extension in a dip, if you are on levelish ground, it will have normalish droop available. If you are climbing, the wheel and bike will follow the ground. This is no different than another bike climbing with 35% sag. if you encounter a dip, the weight transfer to close to 100% to the rear, pretty much means the rear is going to follow that dip, not extend.

    I think this answers your question.

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    now, since the shock is actually at the beginning of it's stroke, the spring force is low and with the assist of the Missing Link momentarily rotating to compress the shock, the bump is absorbed easily.
    Light-bulb moment here. I had never thought about how the spring force would be lower with the shock in extension. Interesting...really looking forward to building and riding mine.

  45. #345
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    Brian and others,

    Sorry for the noob questions but does my Shinning frame with 148 mm rear hub spacing and 27+ setup require a boost specific crankset/chainring?

    Thanks in advance

  46. #346
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    Additional noobish question..

    How wide 27 tyres will the different 29" forks take?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    while the PB demo was cool, it didn't have too much relevance to real world riding. Drop to flat mighta been better. I suspect they may have chosen a test that made CF look it's best.
    That was a pure marketing video and had nothing to do with materials testing in realistic riding failure modes.
    Safe riding,

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  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian and others,

    Sorry for the noob questions but does my Shinning frame with 148 mm rear hub spacing and 27+ setup require a boost specific crankset/chainring?

    Thanks in advance
    Never mind, I figured out the answer. Yes, due to the different chainline required for the boost spacing.

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Never mind, I figured out the answer. Yes, due to the different chainline required for the boost spacing.
    Not necessarily. My M3 is boost and the chainline is much better with normal XTR cranks.

    There have been a few people I've seen reporting they get better chainline on boost bikes with non bo0st cranks.
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  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Not necessarily. My M3 is boost and the chainline is much better with normal XTR cranks.

    There have been a few people I've seen reporting they get better chainline on boost bikes with non bo0st cranks.
    Okay, thanks for the info. I just googled that and from what I read it makes sense, keep a better chainline for the high torque (climbing) gears with a non boost crankset.

    Brian, care to make a recommendation?

  51. #351
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    Hi Brian,
    any update to report?

  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Light-bulb moment here. I had never thought about how the spring force would be lower with the shock in extension. Interesting...really looking forward to building and riding mine.
    This is a key point to how the rear is so plush even though you are climbing in a fully extended "locked out" mode. The combo of the Missing Link acting in the opposite direction against low spring force equals instant bump absorption.

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian and others,

    Sorry for the noob questions but does my Shinning frame with 148 mm rear hub spacing and 27+ setup require a boost specific crankset/chainring?

    Thanks in advance
    My latest info is that a standard crank and Q-factor is used with a chainring offeset 3 mm outboard. And I have allowed heel and crank clearance for that.

  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Additional noobish question..

    How wide 27 tyres will the different 29" forks take?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    That's a trick question, maybe for the fork guys, but a boost fork can go wider.

  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian,
    any update to report?
    I am on my way to Socal for demos Mar 18-19, on my way to Taiwan. while in Taiwan, I will visit the factory and come back with a much firmer picture of everything.

    In the meanttime, demos will continue in Socal on Mar 25-26 and denver area April 1-2. Hit me up or go to facebook to register for events or recommend locations.

    b

  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    That's a trick question, maybe for the fork guys, but a boost fork can go wider.
    I've sent the same question to both Xfusion and DVO.
    I just noticed a 27+/29" version of the Diamond is available, boost standard and up to 160mm travel.
    http://www.dvosuspension.com/products/diamond-110boost/

    I also noticed Xfusion suddenly have the Revel back on the web, even they in December answered me it wont go in production..
    http://www.xfusionshox.com/products/...vel-series/hlr

    Not Boost standard but seems to have plenty room for 2,8 tyres. Maybe even 3,0.
    (Edit: comparing on pictures clearly shows the Revel got more tyre width clearance then the Mc Queen 27+ fork. And I'm pretty certain I won't miss Boost width hub up front)
    Only catch I can see is that all Xfusion 29" or 27+ forks are limited to 140mm when DVO offers 160..

    Brian could you look up for us if a Revel upgrade could be affordable within reasonable limits. And when they will match DVO, RockShox, Öhlin, MRP.. (Fox?) by offering Boost version and/or 160mm travel.

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    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 03-11-2017 at 11:21 AM. Reason: K

  57. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I've sent the same question to both Xfusion and DVO.
    I just noticed a 27+/29" version of the Diamond is available, boost standard and up to 160mm travel.
    DIAMOND 110|BOOST | DVO Suspension

    I also noticed Xfusion suddenly have the Revel back on the web, even they in December answered me it wont go in production..
    X Fusion Shox | Revel HLR inverted fork.

    Not Boost standard but seems to have plenty room for 2,8 tyres. Maybe even 3,0.
    (Edit: comparing on pictures clearly shows the Revel got more tyre width clearance then the Mc Queen 27+ fork. And I'm pretty certain I won't miss Boost width hub up front)
    Only catch I can see is that all Xfusion 29" or 27+ forks are limited to 140mm when DVO offers 160..

    Brian could you look up for us if a Revel upgrade could be affordable within reasonable limits. And when they will match DVO, RockShox, Öhlin, MRP.. (Fox?) by offering Boost version and/or 160mm travel.

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    On the DVO front, I beleive the boost 29er goes up to 150mm and the boost 27.5 goes up to 170mm, which will be a great fork. I am liking the Diamond non boost forks I'm testing on both the 27.5 and 29 version.

    I am heading to taiwan after the next demos anf will have a lot more suspension answers when I return.

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    On the DVO front, I beleive the boost 29er goes up to 150mm and the boost 27.5 goes up to 170mm, which will be a great fork. I am liking the Diamond non boost forks I'm testing on both the 27.5 and 29 version.

    I am heading to taiwan after the next demos anf will have a lot more suspension answers when I return.
    Hi Brian,
    any news/pics form Taiwan?

  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian,
    any news/pics form Taiwan?
    I just posted an update on Kickstarter, but here's the goodies,

    First frames expected in Mid to end of May is what the owner of the factory told me during my visit, over noodle soup at lunch. The soup was great, so I will take him at his word on delivery.....for now. Word on the street is that he's good for it. My Taiwanese trading agent has had many good projects with him as well.

    Frames will be delivered in order of ordering, with raw frames getting a slight nod, since all frames are coming raw.

    My visit to the factory was great. I liked my engineering counterpart as well as the owner, and they have a good quality track record. Sometimes, translating the engineering is the biggest difficulty (most of the time), so having an instant understanding with my counterpart is a great way to start. How does this matter the most? If he has a question, he asks and never makes a change that I don't OK. While that sounds simple, it is not always common.

    I'll have some teaser pics and videos up soon. NOT of your bikes, too soon, but of the factory and process and stuff.

    All of the "forgings" for the first batch are CNC machined, partly for initial accuracy, but mostly for expense of forging in small batches. The factory promised pics as parts start to arrive from suppliers.

    thanks again, more later. We are rollin.

    cheers,

    Brian

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    How exciting !
    Thanks for the update, keep 'em coming when you have news !

  61. #361
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    Great update Brian! :-) Good to hear it's going smooth. It sounds like you are enjoying the process..

    (ps. please remember to check Revel fork upgrade before you head home! ;-) )


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    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 04-08-2017 at 06:34 AM.

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    Any word on the long travel 29er?
    It takes half a joule more to accelerate Brass Nipples over Alloy Nipples on a 29er to 30kph.

  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by softbatch View Post
    Any word on the long travel 29er?
    So, how long's a long travel 29er?

    Though not long, I'd say 140mm is the sweet spot if you want to ride everything.

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    Well I'd like to think its on the way because I have one on order.

    160mm f/r "The Shining"

    I believe Brian is able to accomplish this modular-ly ie he's not producing two completely unique frame sections in order to create it.

  65. #365
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    Interesting to see other patents appearing outside the gigantic box of todays mainstream..
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/12...-nothing-else/
    A good indication that evolution around mtb suspension have not peaked just yet.

    But I'm amazed how it's possible to writ such a long article. Mention Tantrum might be the closest thing in comparison (except the "massive amounts" of 20mm more rear travel..)
    But fail to even mention the radical difference when it comes to Missing Links unique adaptable geometry that makes it climbs so well compared to other pedal efficient patents..



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  66. #366
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    I'm happy to see at least a tiny movement against climb switches, etc. I live where there aren't any climbs long enough to need a climb switch, but bikes that rely on them become way too bobby on all our pedaling sections. I read every bike test and watch out for the reviewer saying, "You'll want to flip the climb switch." As soon as I see that, I generally eliminate that bike from my list.

    I've also felt that someone could design suspensions that don't need them, rather than just licensing existing stuff that has varying degrees of bob resistance.

    This Polygon bike caught my eye immediately yesterday, and I'm sure like everyone here I thought, "What about Brian's design?" At least they did drop a mention in there of Brian's.

    I've always considered climb switches band-aids, so I'm happy to see some new designs coming forward. I miss that about the 90's - there were lots of good and bad ideas being tried. Lately we seem to have settled into some comfortable ruts (Horst, VPP, DW, etc.); I'm glad to see some new thinking coming out again. And that's why I have a Tantrum on the way.

  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Great update Brian! :-) Good to hear it's going smooth. It sounds like you are enjoying the process..

    (ps. please remember to check Revel fork upgrade before you head home! ;-) )


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    DEFINITELY enjoying it. That and the fact that i am now, at long last, a professional mountain biker. Sweet.

    I like it so much, I think I will start writing an ongoing monologue, maybe Starting a Bike Company for Dummies. I think it might be an interesting read as I travel through this adventure

    The revel remains an enigma.....

  68. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Well I'd like to think its on the way because I have one on order.

    160mm f/r "The Shining"

    I believe Brian is able to accomplish this modular-ly ie he's not producing two completely unique frame sections in order to create it.
    This is correct. I also have a 140 mm dropout for the 29er......but going from 125 mm to 160 convinced me that there is no downside, it even climbs better due to more geo change, so I'm not sure how long the 140 version might remain.

    It also immediately convinced me to make a 180 mm version of the 27.5, although that will take a few more parts, I still think I can do it with the existing front and rear frame set.

  69. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Interesting to see other patents appearing outside the gigantic box of todays mainstream..
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/12...-nothing-else/
    A good indication that evolution around mtb suspension have not peaked just yet.

    But I'm amazed how it's possible to writ such a long article. Mention Tantrum might be the closest thing in comparison (except the "massive amounts" of 20mm more rear travel..)
    But fail to even mention the radical difference when it comes to Missing Links unique adaptable geometry that makes it climbs so well compared to other pedal efficient patents..



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    That is an interesting design for sure. And the internet engineers are gonna go nuts trying to quantify that with photo analysis.

    I would say it must have something going for it or it wouldn't have made it this far. Interestingly, i pitched the missing link to this bike company, not knowing they were 2 yrs down the road with this design.

    On the face of it, however, I will claim the active geometry advantage. I noticed a mention that "it didn't squat much on the climbs". Meaning of course, that it did squat.

    But I'd love to give it a ride. Part of the fun process of the demo rides is getting to ride other state of the art designs on awesome trails. Usually, my demo customers let me take one of their bikes out with them, so I've ridden most of the popular crop in the last year or so.

  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    This is correct. I also have a 140 mm dropout for the 29er......but going from 125 mm to 160 convinced me that there is no downside, it even climbs better due to more geo change, so I'm not sure how long the 140 version might remain.
    Hmm, Brian, I might send some more money to you to grab a set of 140mm 29ers while they last. You have my interest.

    Would the 140 be with the same shock as the 125?

  71. #371
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    While riding an old 2005 Fisher hardtail on my usual loop I forgot how fun a HT can be. I love how quick it accelerates and how snappy and repsonsive it climbed. I won't go into the issues of getting out of cadence due to bumps, roots, and water bars while climbing. To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?

    I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on buying a new frame and this tantrum keeps nagging at me. I'd really love to demo one. I can't see spending a bunch of coin on a frame I've never ridden no matter how good the reviews.

    Thanks for any help

  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?
    It's basically locked out until the bump force overrides the pedal force at what seems to be the perfect leverage/force point with a seamless transition. I love the feel of climbing on a hardtail and the direct drive power, hate the energy that's robbed from suspension... this design caters to my (our?) interests as well as those who sit and spin who prefer active suspensions. Probably sounds like crazy internet claims... until you've ridden one.

  73. #373
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    The new Marin and Polygon bikes are stealing some of the thunder of remarkable new kinematics.
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/marin-...irst-ride.html
    (and discussed/revealed on several other websites including this one)

    It doesn't have the same altering geometry but it does claim it keeps the geometry more stable for the rider ie less rider sag in the first place.

    It will be interesting when these bikes get more people riding/reviewing and when they end up comparing them to Tantrum. Polygon/Marin of course are huge compared to Brian/Tantrum so it looks like a bit of an additional burden to Brian's success to me although who knows it may open more riders into thinking about improved kinematics in their bikes.

    It is carbon, although no frame weights are given nor are bare frames available at least as of now. Not even sure exactly when you will be able to buy the bike. Its a bit ugly but no worse than Tantrum (sorry). It only takes 1* drivetrains which seems to be important only to me, and some tight heel clearance with that big swingarm. Maintenance of the big sliding shaft unknown.

    On the one hand, buying a kickstarter frame to try out Brian's idea is a small risk compared to spending $6k-8k up front for a complete high end bike.

    Just when you thought suspension was settled science.

  74. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    it may open more riders into thinking about improved kinematics in their bikes.
    I'm pretty sure it's going to open minds and help Brian's case if anything. He's not competing with big brands... and creating interest in improved kinematics and new designs is a burden he now shares (assuming these reviews have merit).

  75. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    It's basically locked out until the bump force overrides the pedal force at what seems to be the perfect leverage/force point with a seamless transition. I love the feel of climbing on a hardtail and the direct drive power, hate the energy that's robbed from suspension... this design caters to my (our?) interests as well as those who sit and spin who prefer active suspensions. Probably sounds like crazy internet claims... until you've ridden one.
    Thanks Eatsdirt, that just makes me want to demo one more. If anyone bought a size large in the Oregon area let me know. I'd like to get a frame before fall.

  76. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    While riding an old 2005 Fisher hardtail on my usual loop I forgot how fun a HT can be. I love how quick it accelerates and how snappy and repsonsive it climbed. I won't go into the issues of getting out of cadence due to bumps, roots, and water bars while climbing. To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?
    So I'll say that I basically have two blinged out bikes I ride, a road bike and a Pivot Mach 5.7c which is a DW-link bike. I've been shopping for a new bike for a few months (and demoing here and there for a couple of years) because 26 is dead but I told myself I didn't want to spend money on a bike that isn't at least FASTER than my old one. Seemed like it wouldn't be a tall order--but it was. I've been demoing a bunch of bikes.

    The moment I get on the tantrum and started pedaling out the driveway I could feel it was faster. Honestly that's the best thing I can say about it in my opinion. It's so much faster you can feel it. Right away. It's like some of the delay from when you push on the pedal and when you are propelled forward is removed vs a normal FS bike. I have a hard tail MTB, and a road bike, so I know what instant response feels like. The tantrum feels closer to that than to my DW-link FS bike. But it's not a hard tail. It's in between. If you stand and mash, it will bob--but it grips for DAYS. It makes climbing easy. Is it a hard tail? No, but it's better than any other full suspension bike I've ridden by far. I have one on order.
    Last edited by litany; 04-20-2017 at 11:04 PM.

  77. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    While riding an old 2005 Fisher hardtail on my usual loop I forgot how fun a HT can be. I love how quick it accelerates and how snappy and repsonsive it climbed. I won't go into the issues of getting out of cadence due to bumps, roots, and water bars while climbing. To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?

    I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on buying a new frame and this tantrum keeps nagging at me. I'd really love to demo one. I can't see spending a bunch of coin on a frame I've never ridden no matter how good the reviews.

    Thanks for any help
    Having ridden two of Brian's bikes I can say they never felt like a hardtail to me. Not that rigid, snappy feeling. Not that I would want them to tbh. They're suspension bikes and they'll move around under you, when you apply power to them, they stiffen and in proportion to how much power you're laying down, they feel.... efficient. So, when you're climbing that moderate climb in your hard tail and the back wheel is banging off of every root and rock, you'll have tactile feedback as to what is going on, on his bike, it'll mostly disappear since it's pretty supple while climbing. On a steep climb, while you're perched on the nose of your saddle, hopping your rear wheel over stuff, on his bike, you'll be sitting in the saddle while the rear wheel rolls over. It seamlessly gets stiffer until there is close to zero movement? Absolutely zero movement? I couldn't really tell since during those moments I had my hands full.

    If you want to feel what one of his bikes is like climbing without actually being able to get your hands on one, go demo a 120mm DWS bike, or VPP bike and whatever movement you can see/feel while climbing, cut it in half at a minimum and fully at a maximum. That's what his 160mm bike is like. Plus the geometry change thing. It's still a FS bike, just a better one.

  78. #378
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    I should probably clarify my experience... I only pedaled the bike on steep sustained grades outside of a quick parking lot lap. The linkage was basically topped out (locked out is a bad description) when it was remotely steep/smooth. No wasted effort or shock movement was felt, even when powering out of the saddle. On steep technical chunk, any bump force over-riding the pedaling force and activating the suspension was of no consequence to the effort being put out.

    As others mentioned, I also felt the very active nature when the efforts were a bit easier (dropping closer to sag) around the parking lot. No discernible pedal bob or loss of efficiency there either. The geo/weight bias seems to change perfectly appropriate to the effort and terrain involved.

    It's obviously nothing like a hard tail, but definitely shares some of the direct drive attributes.
    Last edited by EatsDirt; 04-21-2017 at 08:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Having ridden two of Brian's bikes I can say they never felt like a hardtail to me. Not that rigid, snappy feeling. Not that I would want them to tbh. They're suspension bikes and they'll move around under you, when you apply power to them, they stiffen and in proportion to how much power you're laying down, they feel.... efficient. So, when you're climbing that moderate climb in your hard tail and the back wheel is banging off of every root and rock, you'll have tactile feedback as to what is going on, on his bike, it'll mostly disappear since it's pretty supple while climbing. On a steep climb, while you're perched on the nose of your saddle, hopping your rear wheel over stuff, on his bike, you'll be sitting in the saddle while the rear wheel rolls over. It seamlessly gets stiffer until there is close to zero movement? Absolutely zero movement? I couldn't really tell since during those moments I had my hands full.

    If you want to feel what one of his bikes is like climbing without actually being able to get your hands on one, go demo a 120mm DWS bike, or VPP bike and whatever movement you can see/feel while climbing, cut it in half at a minimum and fully at a maximum. That's what his 160mm bike is like. Plus the geometry change thing. It's still a FS bike, just a better one.
    Thanks for all the responses. I'm not looking for a hardtail in the tantrum. I don't like how the HT bangs on every root and water bar where I ride when climbing. But at the same time riding the 2010 trek fuel (which is a decent climber) there's that lag or squat during hard climbing or even moderate climbing.

    After reading this thread multiple times I really need to try one before I buy somehow. This bike has to last me 5-10 years, as I'm a buy and ride it till it's dead or outdated kind of guy. Tantrum being a brand new untested company scares me a little in regards to warranty. I'm not worried about resell as I said by the time I'm usually done with a bike it's not worth much but scrap.

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I would say it must have something going for it or it wouldn't have made it this far. Interestingly, i pitched the missing link to this bike company, not knowing they were 2 yrs down the road with this design.
    You're in production and delivering product at virtually the same time so it was probably best that you went it by yourself. You've also got an option for carbon.


    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    On the face of it, however, I will claim the active geometry advantage. I noticed a mention that "it didn't squat much on the climbs". Meaning of course, that it did squat.
    The claim is little compression/rebound damping required so maybe there's massive stiction from the slider? Too much damping and the rear just packs down. I don't know if that's a desirable feature, but if it works then it works.

    (Cannondale Lefty's needle roller bearings in version 2 should free things up, if there is stiction)

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    Admitting that this is quite a different methodology to suspension design, it was described as the constant load on the chain holding the frame up – or on a plane. However, the suspension is free to move whenever it encounters a bump (even when pedaling) since the main link is always in compression. That ‘on plane’ concept also keeps the geometry constant when climbing or descending, and allows for a lower bottom bracket.
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/20...to-160mm-29er/

    I thought this was interesting, as I read it, it's better than what happens with a conventional suspension design that moves in the wrong direction no matter what you are doing, but not like the Tantrum that actively moves in the direction you would want.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    (Cannondale Lefty's needle roller bearings in version 2 should free things up, if there is stiction)
    What?

  82. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    What?
    I think he has somehow equated the Polygon design with Tantrum.

  83. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I think he has somehow equated the Polygon design with Tantrum.
    Yeah, sure..


    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Interesting to see other patents appearing outside the gigantic box of todays mainstream..
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/12...-nothing-else/
    A good indication that evolution around mtb suspension have not peaked just yet.

    But I'm amazed how it's possible to writ such a long article. Mention Tantrum might be the closest thing in comparison (except the "massive amounts" of 20mm more rear travel..)
    But fail to even mention the radical difference when it comes to Missing Links unique adaptable geometry that makes it climbs so well compared to other pedal efficient patents..



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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    That is an interesting design for sure. And the internet engineers are gonna go nuts trying to quantify that with photo analysis.

    I would say it must have something going for it or it wouldn't have made it this far. Interestingly, i pitched the missing link to this bike company, not knowing they were 2 yrs down the road with this design.

    On the face of it, however, I will claim the active geometry advantage. I noticed a mention that "it didn't squat much on the climbs". Meaning of course, that it did squat.

    But I'd love to give it a ride. Part of the fun process of the demo rides is getting to ride other state of the art designs on awesome trails. Usually, my demo customers let me take one of their bikes out with them, so I've ridden most of the popular crop in the last year or so.

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    Yeah, sure..
    You're still not making any sense.

  85. #385
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    One question for Brian or the reviewers. Under transition from bump to hard pedalling, does the link "hit" a hard stop that you can hear? Is the stop integrated into the linkage design somehow, or does it utilise the full extension of the shock as a stop?
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  86. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    One question for Brian or the reviewers. Under transition from bump to hard pedalling, does the link "hit" a hard stop that you can hear? Is the stop integrated into the linkage design somehow, or does it utilise the full extension of the shock as a stop?
    There is no hard stop you can hear. The linkage uses the full extension of the shock to limit linkage movement, but it's not abrupt. I got a very good demonstration of how that works prior to my demo ride.

  87. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    There is no hard stop you can hear. The linkage uses the full extension of the shock to limit linkage movement, but it's not abrupt. I got a very good demonstration of how that works prior to my demo ride.

    Does the Link provide progressive resistance to squat as it moves through its travel? Or, is it an all or nothing affair?

  88. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Does the Link provide progressive resistance to squat as it moves through its travel? Or, is it an all or nothing affair?
    Yes, it is progressive. It's not all or nothing. Honestly if you close your eyes or don't look down you won't notice anything really going on with the linkage. All I noticed was:

    Acceleration was noticeably better than my lightweight, carbon DW-link bike. The fact that it was noticeable shocked me. There is less delay, it feels snappier.

    Going up hills just felt easier. It's hard to describe, but where I live it's very steep. 20% technical grades are common, and every trail I go up has steeper sections than that. So not having to focus on keeping my weight forward as much was also surprising. It also felt like it had more grip.

    I used to have a 2007 Blur LT with a Talas fork--using the talas felt almost necessary because the bike would sag so much on the steeps that the 40mm drop would help even things out. After a few years of riding like this I was at my LBS asking about the new Pivot DW-link bikes and why they didn't have Talas forks. Guy told me that they weren't as necessary as on the VPP bikes because the rear end rode higher. Sure enough it did. I was able to climb hills without talas on the pivot as with it on my Blur. Then there was the added benefit that the DW seemed to pedal a little bit better. The missing link is like the same step forward, but again.

    When you're going up super steep stuff you have to pedal hard, no matter what, which causes the rear end to rise more and gives you better grip without feeling like you're going to wheelie all the time. So you don't have to spend as much effort on controlling the bike and you can focus on pedaling hard. So yeah, in a way it does provide a progressive resistance to squat. The harder you pedal the less squat you get. It's seamless too, and when you hit a bump it absorbs it. It doesn't lock out--ever. It doesn't become a hard tail. It's not like the BRAIN where it locks out and then you hit a bump, get the seat shoved up your butt and then it decides to "open up" for you after it just tried to buck you off. It absorbs small bumps when climbing better than my dw-link bike. All while having something like more anti-squat. It just advances MTB suspension far enough that you can tell it's better.

    Brian is a racer, this bike is meant to go fast. If you want to feel like you are going fast buy a rigid bike. I took a wrong turn a few weeks ago and rode my road bike on a few miles of single track and fire road, it was a hoot. It felt like I was going fast because of how crazy bumpy it was. But I KNOW I was going super slowly. Sometimes bikes feel faster than they are, I think the tantrum is actually fast. It's the first bike I've ridden in years that I think is actually better and faster than my current bike in every way. Except for the whole carbon thing. I'd prefer a light weight carbon frame, because it would be lighter, but I'm gonna throw a 180mm lyrik on this thing and it'll still be below 25lbs.

    I think this bike rewards people who like to go fast uphills and downhills the most. It's truly an "all mountain" bike, with basically no downsides that I could see in my 1.5hr demo ride.

    I'm excited for my frame to come, I can't wait to ride it more. It's going to be so much fun.

  89. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by litany View Post
    >>>>>
    ....So yeah, in a way it does provide a progressive resistance to squat. The harder you pedal the less squat you get. It's seamless too, and when you hit a bump it absorbs it....
    <<<<<<
    .
    I would like to specify/correct you on this important point for everybody to understand.

    It's NOT only Squat that is terminated. But also the (for the specific speed/terrain less then optimal) Sag.


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  90. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Does the Link provide progressive resistance to squat as it moves through its travel? Or, is it an all or nothing affair?
    What Litany said...

    Or the short answer, it's progressive based on your effort. The harder you pedal, the more resistant it is to squat. When you're really pushing hard (steep climbs), it moves beyond sag to a steeper STA w/ a topped out shock.

    The geo/weight bias basically changes perfectly to the effort/terrain and does it seamlessly while having active suspension.

    I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't ridden one.

  91. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I would like to specify/correct you on this important point for everybody to understand.

    It's NOT only Squat that is terminated. But also the (for the specific speed/terrain less then optimal) Sag.
    Yes, it reduces sag. The thing that "anti-squat" does is keep the bike from sagging EVEN more as a result of your acceleration. This bike is not just anti-squat, it's anti-sag.

    Imagine a rear wheel drive car accelerating: You get weight transfer to the rear (which means some squat). Anti-squat tries to prevent that from happening by resisting that acceleration squat. Missing link doesn't just reduce the squat from each acceleration of each pedal stroke, it reduces sag too. That's where the geometry change comes from. The benefit is when you reduce sag that much, and then hit a bump, your suspension is super soft and eager to absorb that bump. So it tackles those bumps very efficiently. You'd think that all that anti-squat anti-sag would jack up the rear and make it firm to bumps, but it doesn't. It absorbs them very well, which is what I think is what is so special about the missing link. That's really what I think it comes down to.

    It rewards faster riders, you get more efficiency, better bump absorption, better traction, and better geometry for climbing. Then when you start going down hill you have a sweet bike with a slack fork, long travel, & dialed rear end.

  92. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by litany View Post
    .

    It rewards faster riders, you get more efficiency, better bump absorption, better traction, and better geometry for climbing. Then when you start going down hill you have a sweet bike with a slack fork, long travel, & dialed rear end.
    How is the playfulness of the tantrum? With that slacked out HTA, is it just a bomb down with reckless abandon or can you hit features, flick the bike around and play on natural terrain and so forth?

  93. #393
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    I think it's plenty playful. For comparison I rode a pivot switchblade--that thing defined monster truck for me. It actually wasn't really fun but it was impressive it its own way. The tantrum I think is a good balance. Didn't seem to lose anything compared to my 26er.

  94. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's going to open minds and help Brian's case if anything. He's not competing with big brands... and creating interest in improved kinematics and new designs is a burden he now shares (assuming these reviews have merit).
    I agree with you here. I am amazed at the amount of people that insist everything is as good as it gets. I'm also glad they are bucking the "antisquat and leverage curve are all you need to tell what's happening". Sooooo many of the internet engineers think those 2 things are all that matters.

    Keep in mind, I have no idea what that suspension does........nor will I try to analyze it by photo

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Well I'd like to think its on the way because I have one on order.

    160mm f/r "The Shining"

    I believe Brian is able to accomplish this modular-ly ie he's not producing two completely unique frame sections in order to create idt.
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-shinedown-es.jpg  


  96. #396
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    So has any one thought of building one of these as a single speed


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  97. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum
    This just gets more unique. So versatile with modular dropout tuning.

    I give up on finding out what the f... that new mystery hole on the ML are supposed to do... Adjustable topout or an emergency lockout?
    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  98. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum
    Brian I love the color but how does it ride?

  99. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    Brian I love the color but how does it ride?
    I freakin love it so far. The 29er front with 160 has silly rollover and is at least a little closer to the rear in terms of plushness. And the dco fork is pretty plush

    But now, first opinion of the revalve i had dvo do on the rear is just,..silly butter. This thing moves when you rest your hand on the saddle. And while i haven't had enough time to be sure it has enough bottoming resistance, i have zero volume spacers in it at the moment.

    @eatsdirt, you said the rear "disappeared" before in the gnar? It's better. Way better.

    And the thing carves and pops. The 29er fr and rear just always has a "longer" fell in the corners. Thise physics can't be denied

  100. #400
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    Brian, just curious... what size frame is the Redrum" and what is the bb height? I'm thinking 120/130 front 29" and 160 rear 27.5" for my xc and a bit more bike!

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