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  1. #201
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    New question here.

    Any update about the kickstart campaign?

  2. #202
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    yes. Sorry for the delays. Kickstarter alone takes a huge effort, much less starting a bike company. BUT, almost ready to go live next week.

    On another note, I am at Cyclofest with a couple bikes if anyone wants a demo

  3. #203
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    Kickstarter is ALIVE!!!!

    hey everyone, the beast that is the kickstarter presentation has been tamed and we are live.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ull-suspension

    Amazing response with 12 frames sold in a few hours since we went live today at noon. still some smokin early bird prices.

    thanks to all who helped get me here

    cheers,

    Brian

  4. #204
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    Demo Tests

    Did anyone get to test ride these recently that could offer up first ride impressions? Thanks!

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSlave View Post
    Did anyone get to test ride these recently that could offer up first ride impressions? Thanks!
    I too would be interested.

    So far I have only seen these:
    First Ride: Tantrum Cycles Missing Link Suspension - Pinkbike
    Tantrum Cycles goes live - First look & first ride of Outburst & Meltdown shape shifting mountain bikes - Bikerumor

    I thought I saw somewhere that Vital was going to be doing a review also but I haven't seen it yet.

  6. #206
    Aye
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    Last edited by Aye; 11-18-2016 at 10:58 AM. Reason: wrong forum topic

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSlave View Post
    Did anyone get to test ride these recently that could offer up first ride impressions? Thanks!
    I rode this bike yesterday with Brian and rode it along the lines of dirt bike. Throw it into corners, try and maintain corner speed and squirting out. This bike rails corners and then when it comes to stamping on the pedals on the exits, I didn’t feel the usual softened bob on back end of the bike on every downward pedal stroke. On the straighter level sections, I would speed up and literally feel the rear suspension firm up. It was like there was a hidden pump somewhere, which sensed when you pushed down on the pedals and would add some air to the shock and it would extend! The same was true when it came to climbing, the rear end would harden up, the shock would extend and you could feel the bike go forward and not bob and go forward. The bike has a neutral feeling, it rails corners with confidence and did not feeling top heavy. Also it wouldn’t get out of shape when hitting roots in corners at speed. Normally I would expect a bike to feel “skittery” in situations like that, but this bike felt planted, both front and rear. This one of the best f*cking bikes I have ever ridden. It’s in the “one bike for pretty much everything” category.

  8. #208
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    Sweet!! Can't wait to get mine in April next year!

  9. #209
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    First, thanks, Brian for making the trip south. I not only enjoyed riding the bike, but meeting you.

    Now, folks, about this bike. I rode the 29er. Yes, since these prototypes were designed for normal humans and not hulking mutants, it was too small for me, but only small enough to make me adjust my riding style for the first 300 yards of trail to sort out how to deal with being on too small a bike, and still trying to get it up to speed and around turns without hurting myself or the bike. If anything, the added awkwardness of the small frame/fit made the rest of my observations about the bike that much more impressive. If you're reading this, you've likely watched the videos Brian has put up, and read what he and other people have said about the bike. I don't want to write the same thing over and over again, or try to draw comparisons to stuff that just can't compare to what I experienced so I'll say this: The bike did exactly what the brochure said it does. I'll leave the advertising to other people, but I'll relate this little bit.

    I am very, very familiar with the trail we rode on (lock 4) and so I hand picked a three mile route to put the bike to the test, including what they somewhat optimistically call "the rock garden" there. It's really just rocky enough to tick you off, but not really a rock garden. It's a solid 60 yard or so section of trail that you can't quite just plow through because you might get a flat or beat a rim out, so you have to work a little. On a hard tail (my hardtail is also SS) the real problem isn't putting the bike where you want it and getting power down, it's keeping traction over the small square edges and leaf covered rocks. On a FS bike, it's being able to stand up and put enough body english on the bike to get it where you want it without killing yourself fighting the suspension while climbing this shallow rock covered grade. The Outburst was - I'll just say what I said to Brian after riding through there - it was like cheating. I had all the traction from riding my FS bike through there, and none of the fighting the suspension. Standing up and shifting the bike around, the bike pedaled like my hardtail, but I had traction for days.

    In short, if there's any doubt in your mind, and you can make it to somewhere Brian will be with these bikes, get your butt out there and get a leg over one of these things. And seriously, for those of you who fancy yourselves suspension experts, or amateur engineers, and are trying to figure out how this suspension works and get Brian to give you numbers to "prove what he's talking about" - get over it. You guys more than anyone else, I would encourage to ride this bike, and look at it, and think about this linkage in person. There's a reason he keeps telling you what he does when you ask those questions.

    Just in case anyone is skeptical - the bike was equipped with an X-fusion shock and a DVO fork. The bike was sagged to 30 or 35% (Brian put calipers on it to check) and I twice bottomed out the 140mm fork on drops (the fork may have been a little soft, but it wasn't far off being right) and did not bottom out the bike at all, nor did I ever get the sense that it wasn't THE most plush bike I've ever ridden. Yet, it still pedaled as well - better? - than the best bikes I've ridden. So if you're wondering why the bike is spec'd with one of the simplest shocks made, with very little adjustment, etc - it's because the linkage is so good, it doesn't need anything else.

    Go ride this bike. Go buy one. Buy two. Believe.

  10. #210
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    Brian,

    so production links will be forged, not cnc

    any new teaser pics of anything that will be a final production mold ?
    links or otherwise ?

  11. #211
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    Any pointers to test, ride reviews or just anything that can help in desicion wether to upgrade to Diamond or to be happy with the probably almost as plush Sweep rc HLR Roughcut?

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aye View Post
    I rode this bike yesterday with Brian and rode it along the lines of dirt bike. Throw it into corners, try and maintain corner speed and squirting out. This bike rails corners and then when it comes to stamping on the pedals on the exits, I didn’t feel the usual softened bob on back end of the bike on every downward pedal stroke. On the straighter level sections, I would speed up and literally feel the rear suspension firm up. It was like there was a hidden pump somewhere, which sensed when you pushed down on the pedals and would add some air to the shock and it would extend! The same was true when it came to climbing, the rear end would harden up, the shock would extend and you could feel the bike go forward and not bob and go forward. The bike has a neutral feeling, it rails corners with confidence and did not feeling top heavy. Also it wouldn’t get out of shape when hitting roots in corners at speed. Normally I would expect a bike to feel “skittery” in situations like that, but this bike felt planted, both front and rear. This one of the best f*cking bikes I have ever ridden. It’s in the “one bike for pretty much everything” category.
    Hi Aye,

    Thanks for the sweet review. I apologize again that I only had med/sm frame for you big guys, but it was interesting how quickly you forgot about the 400 mm reach.

    brian

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Sweet!! Can't wait to get mine in April next year!
    thanks keo. It's gonna be fun

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    First, thanks, Brian for making the trip south. I not only enjoyed riding the bike, but meeting you.

    Now, folks, about this bike. I rode the 29er. Yes, since these prototypes were designed for normal humans and not hulking mutants, it was too small for me, but only small enough to make me adjust my riding style for the first 300 yards of trail to sort out how to deal with being on too small a bike, and still trying to get it up to speed and around turns without hurting myself or the bike. If anything, the added awkwardness of the small frame/fit made the rest of my observations about the bike that much more impressive. If you're reading this, you've likely watched the videos Brian has put up, and read what he and other people have said about the bike. I don't want to write the same thing over and over again, or try to draw comparisons to stuff that just can't compare to what I experienced so I'll say this: The bike did exactly what the brochure said it does. I'll leave the advertising to other people, but I'll relate this little bit.

    I am very, very familiar with the trail we rode on (lock 4) and so I hand picked a three mile route to put the bike to the test, including what they somewhat optimistically call "the rock garden" there. It's really just rocky enough to tick you off, but not really a rock garden. It's a solid 60 yard or so section of trail that you can't quite just plow through because you might get a flat or beat a rim out, so you have to work a little. On a hard tail (my hardtail is also SS) the real problem isn't putting the bike where you want it and getting power down, it's keeping traction over the small square edges and leaf covered rocks. On a FS bike, it's being able to stand up and put enough body english on the bike to get it where you want it without killing yourself fighting the suspension while climbing this shallow rock covered grade. The Outburst was - I'll just say what I said to Brian after riding through there - it was like cheating. I had all the traction from riding my FS bike through there, and none of the fighting the suspension. Standing up and shifting the bike around, the bike pedaled like my hardtail, but I had traction for days.

    In short, if there's any doubt in your mind, and you can make it to somewhere Brian will be with these bikes, get your butt out there and get a leg over one of these things. And seriously, for those of you who fancy yourselves suspension experts, or amateur engineers, and are trying to figure out how this suspension works and get Brian to give you numbers to "prove what he's talking about" - get over it. You guys more than anyone else, I would encourage to ride this bike, and look at it, and think about this linkage in person. There's a reason he keeps telling you what he does when you ask those questions.

    Just in case anyone is skeptical - the bike was equipped with an X-fusion shock and a DVO fork. The bike was sagged to 30 or 35% (Brian put calipers on it to check) and I twice bottomed out the 140mm fork on drops (the fork may have been a little soft, but it wasn't far off being right) and did not bottom out the bike at all, nor did I ever get the sense that it wasn't THE most plush bike I've ever ridden. Yet, it still pedaled as well - better? - than the best bikes I've ridden. So if you're wondering why the bike is spec'd with one of the simplest shocks made, with very little adjustment, etc - it's because the linkage is so good, it doesn't need anything else.

    Go ride this bike. Go buy one. Buy two. Believe.
    Mr. Cothyarus, thank you. First for encouraging me to drive down and demo the bike. Yes, while Lock 4 was not technical mayhem, it certainly had enough difficult sections to illustrate the bike's potential.

    Your review? Believe it or not, I am a little humbled. The reality of what I am doing (about to do?) is something that I don't like to look to intently at. It's a little too big and I don't like to look it directly in the eye.

    What am I talking about? NOT starting a bike company, as monumental a task as that is. But by defining a new standard, no scratch that, we have enough new standards; By defining a new level of performance for the full suspension mountain bike. The relentless drum beat of EVERY SINGLE PERSON that rides the bike, pretty much saying the same thing. I am starting to pay attention to what I've done. it's sinking in a little and I still don't want to look it in the eye.

    but I will.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Brian,

    so production links will be forged, not cnc

    any new teaser pics of anything that will be a final production mold ?
    links or otherwise ?
    There is still a chance that the links will be cnc for the kickstarter bikes, both for time and mold costs. That raises my cost a bit, but.....fine.

    After the new year, I'll take a trip to Taiwan and get some spy shots.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Any pointers to test, ride reviews or just anything that can help in desicion wether to upgrade to Diamond or to be happy with the probably almost as plush Sweep rc HLR Roughcut?

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    The only thing I can say about the forks is that I am trying to get a lot of time on both and do much back to back testing, so i can be more detailed in my opinion

  17. #217
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    As a skeptic from page 1, I just want to say great job on this! The reviews are coming in, and it appears to be real.
    2016 SC 5010
    2017 Norco Torrent
    2014 Giant Trance (the boy's)
    2014 Kona Process 134a (the other boy's)

  18. #218
    Aye
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    The reviews are correct, the system works, see and try it for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    As a skeptic from page 1, I just want to say great job on this! The reviews are coming in, and it appears to be real.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The only thing I can say about the forks is that I am trying to get a lot of time on both and do much back to back testing, so i can be more detailed in my opinion
    Sounds Good Brian.

    It appears DVO got a more solid agency here in Scandinavia regarding support and spareparts.
    I have still not managed to get a single respons from the Norwegian X-fusion rep...

    What is the length of the rear shock?

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  20. #220
    Aye
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    Yeah, it didn't feel "small" or cramped at all and i was able to move round on the bike easily without banging my knees on anything.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    As a skeptic from page 1, I just want to say great job on this! The reviews are coming in, and it appears to be real.
    Kyle,

    Skepticism is healthy. Thanks for being an open minded skeptic. I do appreciate it.

    More reviews coming....

  22. #222
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    ISCG tabs?

    One question: what about ISCG tabs?

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    One question: what about ISCG tabs?
    yes. not 05

  24. #224
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    Hey Everyone,

    Tantrum Cycles Kickstarter has been a roaring success, nearly 99% funded with 5 weeks to go. But I want to double it!

    To kick it off, I created, wait for it...the ORTHOdontist Special...the frame isn't carbon, but the rest of the bike is!. Light, fast, wicked and expensive...

    but take a look at the CYBER monday deal on our kickstarter, so low, it's almost like getting the frame for free.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ull-suspension

    thanks again to all our backers and supporters. There will be additional deals posted on Kickstarter throught the day, including upgrades for existing backers. Help me rock this thing!!

    By the way, in addition to Richard Cunnningham's review here:

    First Ride: Tantrum Cycles Missing Link Suspension - Pinkbike

    and Zach Overholt's here:

    https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/11/03...omment-3190720

    There are some reviews from our demo rides surfacing:

    Tantrum Cycles Ride Review - "Missing Link Does the Impossible"

    They are all starting to sound similar.....

    cheers,

    Brian

  25. #225
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    For those of you following along, I shot an email to Brian at his site. My questions had legit content but I also wanted to know how receptive his operation was with dealing with potential customers direct.


    A big factor in which bike brand I go with is how available accessible the business is. Mountain bikes are ridden hard and there will always be issues with any brand - but, it is how receptive the business is with dealing with customers directly.

    Anyway, not only did he get back to me right away (less than a day I think), but he addressed my question and concerns thoroughly.


    Brian,

    Unless its been addressed in this thread, and I missed it, can we veer away from your bikes' pedaling performance and talk about its suspension behavior on the downhills?

    On a personal note I'm seriously looking at one of your frames and would like to know it would work for me (and others with the same style, of course).

    I've been riding a Pivot Mach 6 for the past three years, but have also owned several Santa Cruz bikes (both VPP and high SP), two FSR style frames, and am also on a DH bike (2015 Giant Glory). Our Northeast terrain is rocky, with punchy, out of the saddle, techy climbs. We are lucky enough to have some real AM riding, where the climbs are as tough as the descents.

    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike. The Float X did need a tune to give it more LSC. It pedals well and really feels amazing on the downs. I'm a fan of running more LSC, not only for pedaling platform, but to keep the bike higher in its travel. I don't like super soft feeling bikes that blow through their travel with weight shifts and pumping - then you are left with next to nothing when you do take a hit. Suspension is for going fast, not for comfort. Of course its nice to have the LSC blow off when the going gets fast and rough.

    Anyway, can you speak to us regarding your thoughts on your approach, design, and performance of your suspension on the downs?


    I see you have two rear shocks available for your frames. The Fusion and the DVO. Can you give us your thoughts on how much more performance one might get out of the DVO?

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike.
    Slightly OT, but I just wanted to say don't get rid of the Mach 6. I sympathise with wanting a fresh ride, but it's a sweet bike and until you know you've got something else that is so amazing you'll never ride it again it's worth hanging on to. Even if you need to strip the parts off the frame to move to a new whip.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post

    Brian,

    Unless its been addressed in this thread, and I missed it, can we veer away from your bikes' pedaling performance and talk about its suspension behavior on the downhills?

    On a personal note I'm seriously looking at one of your frames and would like to know it would work for me (and others with the same style, of course).

    I've been riding a Pivot Mach 6 for the past three years, but have also owned several Santa Cruz bikes (both VPP and high SP), two FSR style frames, and am also on a DH bike (2015 Giant Glory). Our Northeast terrain is rocky, with punchy, out of the saddle, techy climbs. We are lucky enough to have some real AM riding, where the climbs are as tough as the descents.

    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike. The Float X did need a tune to give it more LSC. It pedals well and really feels amazing on the downs. I'm a fan of running more LSC, not only for pedaling platform, but to keep the bike higher in its travel. I don't like super soft feeling bikes that blow through their travel with weight shifts and pumping - then you are left with next to nothing when you do take a hit. Suspension is for going fast, not for comfort. Of course its nice to have the LSC blow off when the going gets fast and rough.

    Anyway, can you speak to us regarding your thoughts on your approach, design, and performance of your suspension on the downs?


    I see you have two rear shocks available for your frames. The Fusion and the DVO. Can you give us your thoughts on how much more performance one might get out of the DVO?
    Hi Mike,

    I'm sure these questions have been strangled elsewhere in this thread, but let me address them.

    I'm reasonably familiar with NE terrain. I raced the Mt Snow NORBA DH many times in the 90's. The punchy, out of the saddle techy climbs were where RC at B said "pedals better than all of them". Cotharyus said "it's like cheating".

    Seriously, this bikes climbing ability is worth time and energy. And fun. You can clear stuff you couldn't before. Easier. It's been a common refrain from all testers.

    The cool thing is that the transition is so seamless and instant. For example, you go down into a g-out followed by a steep, short climb. As the bike compresses at the bottom and you jump on the pedals, it responds. The back is up, the geo is steep and you are propelling up the hill.

    On the descents, I have engineered the spring force through the travel to ride slightly lower than static sag during fast rough descents. i want the geometry to slacken. I want the wheel to be able to move instantly to bumps. I want the increased negative travel to keep the tire in contact during this time.

    It's difficult to discuss LSC and such in the context of a conventional suspension. I would surmise that much of the blowing through the travel on modern bikes is more down to the misguided effort to provide even larger and larger air cans, which DO NOT make the spring curve more linear OR more coil like. Just dead in the middle, with not enough force increase as the suspension compresses.

    Obviously, some amount of LSC is good, as with all damping. My advantage is that I can tune the damping solely for bump performance, not pedaling or climbing. I like soft initial response. I want that wheel to move. I want the tire on the ground. I want the back of the bike to stay down, keeping the geometry slack and stable.

    About midway thru the travel is where I want the support to ramp up, giving a "platform" for maneuvers and a nice progressive rate to full travel.

    It is about speed. When the reviews quoted are talking about the security in rooty corners, it's because the back is down and on the ground. Not skipping sideways and deflecting.

    As a side note, both the Xfusion and DVO shocks have very useful compression adjustment. By useful, I mean each click adds a subtle change, no lockout, no platform, but enough to compensate for weight and preference without hurting performance. This is important as any platform or lockout is completely unneeded and redundant on this bike.

    The DVO is much more adjustable. You can even adjust negative spring force. It also has a very low starting force, the lowest I've seen for an air shock. This ads a bit more "supple" at the top of the stroke.

    How much more performance? I'm still playing with the tuning options and optimizing.......

    more later...

    cheers,

    Brian

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    On every "3 position" OEM shock I've ever ridden, the "descent"/"bump absorbing" setting is a joke. It wallows all over the place and blows through travel. There's no chassis stability and it's poor for DH. The middle setting usually is much more stable, resists g-outs, etc. The only problem is that on most OEM tune shocks, they sacrifice the high-speed damping in this setting ...
    Bit of a strange thread this one with so many people playing engineer and apparently ganging up on a real one ... always a bit sorry to see that happen.

    Jayem: I have a Ibis HD3 and I use the "open" setting of the FLOAT DPS most of the time ... it works great, in either #1 or #2 position, #3 is a bit too stiff for me unless the terrain is really muddy. No wallowing and no blowing through its travel ... actually the bike climbs like a goat, even with the slack geometry induced by a 160 fork, and descend stellarly.

    But to the point: I would like to try the Tantrum system and the frame looks nice (besides the green fork ... aaargh). It would be eventually nice to see a carbon version weighting in the 6 pounds range and a 27.5 in 130-140 travel.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    There is still a chance that the links will be cnc for the kickstarter bikes, both for time and mold costs. That raises my cost a bit, but.....fine.

    After the new year, I'll take a trip to Taiwan and get some spy shots.
    Hi Brian,

    Does this mean the final production mold may take different shapes resulting different look of the bike that we see on the kickstarter site and your videos?

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    Bit of a strange thread this one with so many people playing engineer and apparently ganging up on a real one ... always a bit sorry to see that happen.

    Jayem: I have a Ibis HD3 and I use the "open" setting of the FLOAT DPS most of the time ... it works great, in either #1 or #2 position, #3 is a bit too stiff for me unless the terrain is really muddy. No wallowing and no blowing through its travel ... actually the bike climbs like a goat, even with the slack geometry induced by a 160 fork, and descend stellarly.

    But to the point: I would like to try the Tantrum system and the frame looks nice (besides the green fork ... aaargh). It would be eventually nice to see a carbon version weighting in the 6 pounds range and a 27.5 in 130-140 travel.
    Hi Davide,

    It's the internet. There are a few "engineers" that stalk the forums to proclaim their superior knowledge anonymously. Standard Operating Procedure.

    They've been a little more quiet since more reviews are coming in.

    The green fork is also available in black.

    Right now, the bike could actually be configured as a 125 or 140 mm travel 27.5 (or 29). No carbon frame yet (working on it), but you could build a 125 mm bike up easily in the 26 lb range.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetorange View Post
    Hi Brian,

    Does this mean the final production mold may take different shapes resulting different look of the bike that we see on the kickstarter site and your videos?
    Hi Sweet,

    No, the final production molds will replicate the CNC part. The shape is the shape. The only real visual clue to the production bikes that, like every other bike out there, the seat tube has to be bent to get the trendy short CS. I hated to do it to the simple, straight seatpost, but the short CS is worth it.

    cheers,

    Brian

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    For those of you following along, I shot an email to Brian at his site. My questions had legit content but I also wanted to know how receptive his operation was with dealing with potential customers direct.


    A big factor in which bike brand I go with is how available accessible the business is. Mountain bikes are ridden hard and there will always be issues with any brand - but, it is how receptive the business is with dealing with customers directly.

    Anyway, not only did he get back to me right away (less than a day I think), but he addressed my question and concerns thoroughly.


    Brian,

    Unless its been addressed in this thread, and I missed it, can we veer away from your bikes' pedaling performance and talk about its suspension behavior on the downhills?

    On a personal note I'm seriously looking at one of your frames and would like to know it would work for me (and others with the same style, of course).

    I've been riding a Pivot Mach 6 for the past three years, but have also owned several Santa Cruz bikes (both VPP and high SP), two FSR style frames, and am also on a DH bike (2015 Giant Glory). Our Northeast terrain is rocky, with punchy, out of the saddle, techy climbs. We are lucky enough to have some real AM riding, where the climbs are as tough as the descents.

    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike. The Float X did need a tune to give it more LSC. It pedals well and really feels amazing on the downs. I'm a fan of running more LSC, not only for pedaling platform, but to keep the bike higher in its travel. I don't like super soft feeling bikes that blow through their travel with weight shifts and pumping - then you are left with next to nothing when you do take a hit. Suspension is for going fast, not for comfort. Of course its nice to have the LSC blow off when the going gets fast and rough.

    Anyway, can you speak to us regarding your thoughts on your approach, design, and performance of your suspension on the downs?


    I see you have two rear shocks available for your frames. The Fusion and the DVO. Can you give us your thoughts on how much more performance one might get out of the DVO?
    Mike, I'll throw some thoughts out there for you. I rode a Mach 6 at a Pivot test, so when I tell you this bike pedals better than a Mach 6, I mean it. Of course, I rode the 125mm travel 29er, so maybe you'd be more impressed if I told you that it pedaled better than a Mach 429, which up until my Tantrum test ride was the best pedaling FS bike I'd ever ridden.

    Downhill, Brian has already said it's all about speed. My first few runs on the shallow but fast downhills where I demo'd were closer to the speeds I usually ride on my 100mm travel FS XC bike, and the Tantrum was plush, but didn't feel ultra soft, like I was blowing through travel just moving around on the bike. The amount of sag did show itself in the rear as I was "popping off" some roots and rocks, and felt like I had to do more work to get the back end UP. I put all that to rest on the last big downhill we had, which is an old jeep trail with several 12-16 inch drops and lots of roots and babyhead chatter if you use the "fast" line (which I do). The repeated hits have packed up the suspension on my XC bike more than once at speed, and make it hard to run this descent without using the brakes. I decided to risk Brian's bike (and my life) by trying it, because so far the bike had given me no reason to believe it wouldn't do at least as well as my bike does - and not only did it not bottom out, it didn't pack up, and once the speeds got up, I had no issues getting the back end up when popping off some of the roots to "hop" over rougher sections.

    So in short, the most technical climb I did on the bike: Like cheating.
    Most technical/fast descent: If I get to do it again on one of these bikes, I won't brake going into the turn at the top (the last place I checked up on this run) and I suspect I'll still make it out the other end alive on a bike that remained composed.

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    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    Im a bit bummed the Motion France fork fundings are going slow.
    If I could afford one I would certainly have been on that list og funders to. Well I was, but just for a t-shirt..
    I really hope they get to production and that the fork turns out to be up for the job a Tantrum can do.
    . It's a nice thing the can have the controls above the stem. But I've suggested the should consider a kick-off down instead of lock-out.

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  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John - I didn't notice anything out of the norm, when landing on the flat or rear wheel first. The rear suspension and the bike behaved and felt like a "normal" FS bike. The suspension acted like my own FS bike.

    Hope that helps

    Aye

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John
    the link appears to be just at the exact point where the leverage favors locking it out when pedaling, and the closer it gets to vertical, the easier it wants to 'lock' but any lack of fairly stiff pedal forces + any type of bump to the rear will make link bend. so I am imagining if you are downhilling whatsoever or leaping a jump and landing flat that link will not be exactly vertical, since you cannot possibly pedal hard enough mid-air to lock it...so it will be instantly ready to take the hit and send it to the shock

    so, if back wheel is in air, link is bent forward already,

    and if the landing is 'reversed' hit as you mentioned, pushing chainstays forward...it will also send wheel up at the same time, and the link must bend forward as it is already forward, it will not and cannot 'lock' in that scenario.

    only pedaling can put the link to lock
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 12-01-2016 at 08:45 AM.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    yes. not 05
    One more question: Are the Kickstarter frames going to be delivered with BB and headtube already faced?

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John,

    That's actually a complicated question. It helps to separate the horizontal forces from the vertical and remember that forces in the two directions combine (or subtract) with/from each other to determine the final force on the shock. It kind comes down to; which force wins?, Although it's far from that simple.

    Here are some basics.

    1) the linkage never locks. To lock would require the driven link (from the rocker) to be in a straight, or over center position with the Missing Link. While that would work, the action between locking and unlocking would be stiff and obvious (ask me how I know).

    So, the key is to have the climbing force get the suspension NEAR locking. Into a bad "transmission angle". This means that the vertical force most now be proportionally higher than the horizontal force in order for the suspension to move. This prevents any bobbing or suspension movement from small vertical inputs.

    BUT and this is a huge but (get it), as soon as the wheel strikes a bump, there is a horizontal force to the rear, which rotates the Missing Link forward into the knee action. At this instant, the combined horizontal force, even though you are still climbing, is not enough to prevent the vertical bump force from allowing the suspension to compress for the bump. So it moves for that bump only while still climbing at a steep geometry, feeling like a hardtail.

    2) to get to your question about bumps. In the air, the suspension is full extended, the links are in a near straight position, or bad transmission angle. But there is zero climbing or pedaling force to keep it that way, the shock force is at its's lowest (close to zero) and the vertical force from landing is very high. It has to compress instantly.

    You mention a possibility of a forward force when landing. You would pretty much have to land with the bike straight up, front wheel directly over the rear, with a purely vertical trajectory. Not recommended. Otherwise, the force is always up and to the rear when encountering bumps or landings.

    I hope that doesn't confuse things.

    cheers,

    Brian

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    One more question: Are the Kickstarter frames going to be delivered with BB and headtube already faced?
    Yes. BB and HT will be faced and ready. In fact, we are offering an option to have them already installed.

    b

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    BUT and this is a huge but (get it), as soon as the wheel strikes a bump, there is a horizontal force to the rear, which rotates the Missing Link forward into the knee action. At this instant, the combined horizontal force, even though you are still climbing, is not enough to prevent the vertical bump force from allowing the suspension to compress for the bump. So it moves for that bump only while still climbing at a steep geometry, feeling like a hardtail.
    Thanks Brian,

    I see how that works. So under pedal power the terrain gradient affects how firm the ride is, with the rear end being softer on steeper downhills, and firmer on steep climbs because of the horizontal component of body-weight forces? A wheelie under power through a rock garden might feel a bit firmer then with a conventional FS design?

    Cheers,
    John

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi John,

    That's actually a complicated question. It helps to separate the horizontal forces from the vertical and remember that forces in the two directions combine (or subtract) with/from each other to determine the final force on the shock. It kind comes down to; which force wins?, Although it's far from that simple.

    Here are some basics.

    1) the linkage never locks. To lock would require the driven link (from the rocker) to be in a straight, or over center position with the Missing Link. While that would work, the action between locking and unlocking would be stiff and obvious (ask me how I know).

    So, the key is to have the climbing force get the suspension NEAR locking. Into a bad "transmission angle". This means that the vertical force most now be proportionally higher than the horizontal force in order for the suspension to move. This prevents any bobbing or suspension movement from small vertical inputs.

    BUT and this is a huge but (get it), as soon as the wheel strikes a bump, there is a horizontal force to the rear, which rotates the Missing Link forward into the knee action. At this instant, the combined horizontal force, even though you are still climbing, is not enough to prevent the vertical bump force from allowing the suspension to compress for the bump. So it moves for that bump only while still climbing at a steep geometry, feeling like a hardtail.

    2) to get to your question about bumps. In the air, the suspension is full extended, the links are in a near straight position, or bad transmission angle. But there is zero climbing or pedaling force to keep it that way, the shock force is at its's lowest (close to zero) and the vertical force from landing is very high. It has to compress instantly.

    You mention a possibility of a forward force when landing. You would pretty much have to land with the bike straight up, front wheel directly over the rear, with a purely vertical trajectory. Not recommended. Otherwise, the force is always up and to the rear when encountering bumps or landings.

    I hope that doesn't confuse things.

    cheers,

    Brian
    Brian, I have to admit that when I read this, I'm reminded of the first time I read your explanations and walk throughs on the websites and videos. I thought yeah, that sounds good. I wonder if it works. Having ridden it, I almost think the right answer to these questions would be trust me, it works just like it should. Just ride it. But I'm sure ultimately, your answer is more satisfactory.

    (JB, even if Brian's explanation convinces you that the bike "works fine" you still need to ride it. I'm sure it's lightyears better than you imagine it is.)

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Right now, the bike could actually be configured as a 125 or 140 mm travel 27.5 (or 29). No carbon frame yet (working on it), but you could build a 125 mm bike up easily in the 26 lb range.
    Hi Brian, could you please tell us something more about this interesting option: 27.5 140mm travel (BB drop, geometry, intended fork length, availability, ....)
    Thanks

  43. #243
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    You mentioned something about the frame/design being FD compatible, but doesn't look like there are any provisions for it, so I think you meant that theoretically. CAn you confirm that the bikes will not accept an FD as they will be produced ?

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Mike, I'll throw some thoughts out there for you. I rode a Mach 6 at a Pivot test, so when I tell you this bike pedals better than a Mach 6, I mean it. Of course, I rode the 125mm travel 29er, so maybe you'd be more impressed if I told you that it pedaled better than a Mach 429, which up until my Tantrum test ride was the best pedaling FS bike I'd ever ridden.

    Downhill, Brian has already said it's all about speed. My first few runs on the shallow but fast downhills where I demo'd were closer to the speeds I usually ride on my 100mm travel FS XC bike, and the Tantrum was plush, but didn't feel ultra soft, like I was blowing through travel just moving around on the bike. The amount of sag did show itself in the rear as I was "popping off" some roots and rocks, and felt like I had to do more work to get the back end UP. I put all that to rest on the last big downhill we had, which is an old jeep trail with several 12-16 inch drops and lots of roots and babyhead chatter if you use the "fast" line (which I do). The repeated hits have packed up the suspension on my XC bike more than once at speed, and make it hard to run this descent without using the brakes. I decided to risk Brian's bike (and my life) by trying it, because so far the bike had given me no reason to believe it wouldn't do at least as well as my bike does - and not only did it not bottom out, it didn't pack up, and once the speeds got up, I had no issues getting the back end up when popping off some of the roots to "hop" over rougher sections.

    So in short, the most technical climb I did on the bike: Like cheating.
    Most technical/fast descent: If I get to do it again on one of these bikes, I won't brake going into the turn at the top (the last place I checked up on this run) and I suspect I'll still make it out the other end alive on a bike that remained composed.
    Cool, thanks.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    Thanks Brian,

    I see how that works. So under pedal power the terrain gradient affects how firm the ride is, with the rear end being softer on steeper downhills, and firmer on steep climbs because of the horizontal component of body-weight forces? A wheelie under power through a rock garden might feel a bit firmer then with a conventional FS design?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John,

    Sort of. When climbing, you are able to put a much great pedaling force in due to gravity pulling your weight backward. This extra force allows the rear to rise and steepen the geometry.

    On level ground, the resistance to forward motion due to gravity pulling your weight backward is very low, so you cannot pedal hard enough to extend the rear. But at this point, you can pedal hard enough to keep the rear firm, but at sag level.

    On a DH, you can only get slight firming, but the suspension will ride at a slightly lower sag level, giving more fork rake, lower cg.

    Anything under power will be firmer, just depends on circumstance. I personally, am not too good at wheeling under power thru rock gardens, but for example, a rocky technical climb will be firmer. You do not want or need 160 mm of travel. While it may "feel" more comfortable, it's not the fast way up the hill.

    It's so hard to explain all of this fully, because it's all a seamless continuum of conditions and forces

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Brian, I have to admit that when I read this, I'm reminded of the first time I read your explanations and walk throughs on the websites and videos. I thought yeah, that sounds good. I wonder if it works. Having ridden it, I almost think the right answer to these questions would be trust me, it works just like it should. Just ride it. But I'm sure ultimately, your answer is more satisfactory.

    (JB, even if Brian's explanation convinces you that the bike "works fine" you still need to ride it. I'm sure it's lightyears better than you imagine it is.)
    Cotharyus, It's tough. It's so hard to try to explain the myriad of complex interactions, much less describe what it feels like to ride. I can say "Steeper geometry for climbing" but until you've ridden a bike that actively changes geometry, it's not possible for anybody to really understand what it feels like.

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian, could you please tell us something more about this interesting option: 27.5 140mm travel (BB drop, geometry, intended fork length, availability, ....)
    Thanks
    Hi lavolpeeluva,

    I can't tell you much yet. I just put the shock on to check the action. I suspect I may want another dropout to optimize geometry, but haven't got that far yet. I'll give an update further down the road.

    I MIGHT, offer this configuration for the first production run...

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    You mentioned something about the frame/design being FD compatible, but doesn't look like there are any provisions for it, so I think you meant that theoretically. CAn you confirm that the bikes will not accept an FD as they will be produced ?
    Preston,

    The current bikes use a Der mount on the drive side Missing Link. Since the bikes you've seen are all 1 x, I don't have that link installed.

    The production bikes will have a bolt on direct mount.

  49. #249
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    That's awesome. Might be enough to put me over the edge and get me to sign up for an early frame, very intrigued by your design.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    That's awesome. Might be enough to put me over the edge and get me to sign up for an early frame, very intrigued by your design.
    and I think I will add the 180 mm 27.5 to the Kickstarter offerings, but at a slightly higher price (new parts) and a 2 month later delivery, June/July.

    Think of it as an early 2018 model...

  51. #251
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    Brian there have been a few teaser posts about a 160mm 29'er.
    Is that available on the kickstarter and if so can you publish a geo chart ?

  52. #252
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    +1

    Since changing the geometry is integral to the design, it'd be interesting to see the range between climbing and descending.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Brian there have been a few teaser posts about a 160mm 29'er.
    Is that available on the kickstarter and if so can you publish a geo chart ?
    Hi Preston,

    The 160 29er, code name "the shining", will be available on kickstarter, just specify.

    I have to work on a geo chart, as the proto is still a bit of a hodgepodge of parts.

    Think Meltdown with the 434 cS (instead of 429)

  54. #254
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    Bearing tool

    Hi Brian, a crazy idea inspired by Ibis (Ripley, bearing, Clemens, tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaqtqMGwRg) for the Kickstarter campaign: what about a dedicated extractor/press bearing tool ?

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian, a crazy idea inspired by Ibis (Ripley, bearing, Clemens, tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaqtqMGwRg) for the Kickstarter campaign: what about a dedicated extractor/press bearing tool ?
    Hmmm. Looks bling but expensive compared to the cheap press I use that also do the job just as fine...

    I would rather see the cost and effort going into properly sealed bearings! (HRS / RSH)

    http://evolution.skf.com/new-sealing...ball-bearings/

    http://www.schaeffler.de/content.sch..._groove_bb.jsp

    Combined with use-specific lubrication, I'm convinced it will increase the lifespan of bearings from significantly to possibly lifetime compared to use and rider weight.

    Use-specific lubricationprobably would probably means 100% amount of grease on applications with such low rotation as linkage pivots.
    Maybe a bit less is ideal on the faster spinning BB and wheels. But so far I have good experience so far with (as close as possible to) 100% amount of marine greas all over.

    Sorry I keep repeating myself, but the lack of quality and calculated life span limiting designs really annoys me since it's for a long time have been an proven fact in car and home electronics and other buissenesses..



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    Once you "launch" the kickstarter, are you producing these frames in US with you and local labor or contracting to a mfg ?

    If a bike is built with a 142 dropout, can the 148 dropouts be purchased and retro-fitted later ?

    Can you please bring demo bikes to Seattle or Bellingham ?!!! Huge community up here.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Once you "launch" the kickstarter, are you producing these frames in US with you and local labor or contracting to a mfg ?

    If a bike is built with a 142 dropout, can the 148 dropouts be purchased and retro-fitted later ?

    Can you please bring demo bikes to Seattle or Bellingham ?!!! Huge community up here.
    For now, the frames will be made in taiwan. I just missed out on a couple of the last frame builders in the U.S......

    Yes, all dropout configurations will be retrofitable, including the new 180 mm rear travel......

    Love bellingham....someday i'll get back up there.

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    Looks like the real deal! I am very interested in making your bike my next bike of purchase.
    One question. If everything goes according to plan when is the estimated date for the release of the carbon version?
    Sorry if this was mentioned already in the post.

  59. #259
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    So just to confirm what I think I read back on page 3: These bikes are now press-fit BB? Dangit. One less thing I can do myself on bikes. Maybe it'll be one of the PF standards that I can convert back to threaded with a Praxis or something similar. I really don't want a PF BB. Threaded was a selling point for me. Dang.

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    These bikes are now press-fit BB? Dangit. One less thing I can do myself on bikes. .
    Pressfit BB is no more difficult to install properly then a headset.

    The biggest issue I have with the pressfit stuff is I dont believe there is any true benefit from it, other then reduce manufacturing costs (which may or may not get passed onto the consumer).

  61. #261
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    The PF 92 BB I have on my bike has been flawless over the past three seasons.

    If it makes for a stiffer BB area along with less production costs I'm all for it.

    It has not really been much of an issue in installing and removing. IIRC installed mine with some all-thread and washers, but removing it did require a relatively cheap Park tool.

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    removing it did require a relatively cheap Park tool.
    Can you share which tool? I've found that "cheap" and "Park" are never used in the same sentence. Regardless, pressing in and out is more difficult than a threaded BB and offers more opportunity to have a bad install than a threaded BB. I've done plenty of headsets and suspension bearings, and I'd certainly rather do a simple threaded BB than those.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideallday110 View Post
    Looks like the real deal! I am very interested in making your bike my next bike of purchase.
    One question. If everything goes according to plan when is the estimated date for the release of the carbon version?
    Sorry if this was mentioned already in the post.
    there is no official word of a carbon version

    it is just a 'want' from us

    let him get production AL bikes out first.

    then if it ends up he is selling enough real bikes to justify
    the extra 6 digit investment in carbon molds, probably will do it

    it costs a metric f**kton of money just to be able to hit
    the ground with AL bikes as it is

    or, someone big like Giant will license it and ...well, lets
    just get them now and see how things unfold.

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    I've installed a couple of pressfits and I'd say they are slightly more difficult than a headset since you have to source the correct locktite or you can end up with a creaky mess. Glue in BB's are not a great idea IMO, I'd much rather have threaded since you can replace them forever without changing the tolerance of the interface.

    Not a dealbreaker, just a preference.

    I'd rather he gets a few generations of AL frames and refines them before looking into carbon.

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Can you share which tool? I've found that "cheap" and "Park" are never used in the same sentence. Regardless, pressing in and out is more difficult than a threaded BB and offers more opportunity to have a bad install than a threaded BB. I've done plenty of headsets and suspension bearings, and I'd certainly rather do a simple threaded BB than those.
    This is the one I have used. Was just over $55 CDN IIRC which is cheap for the correct tool for the job.

    Press Fit Bottom Bracket Bearing Tool Set | Park Tool

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    This is the one I have used. Was just over $55 CDN IIRC which is cheap for the correct tool for the job.

    Press Fit Bottom Bracket Bearing Tool Set | Park Tool
    Yep, but was less in US dollars

  67. #267
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    Have you guys not read the review on Vital. Threaded bottom bracket. 2017 Tantrum Meltdown - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bikes - Vital MTBNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tantrum-meltdown-2.jpgNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tantrum-meltdown.jpg

  68. #268
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    I have read all the reviews and articles. Have you not read this thread? Mr. Berthold himself indicated that the first batch will be press fit. I even said above that this was on page 3 of this thread:

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts... - Page 3- Mtbr.com


    BB. At the moment, it is press fit. Why? After doing a lot of research, I have discovered, what I think is the main problem with PF BB. Plastic bearing cups. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Most PF BB's have a plastic cup to interface between the bearing itself and the BB shell. Don't know who came up with that BS. Right now, I'm using a Wheels MFG, aluminum cup BB. It's been great.

    Why bother with PF? In theory, it is better. Bigger, wider shell=stronger frame. bearings not hanging out past the BB=better. BTW, those bearings are pressed in also, they're just pressed into a threaded aluminum cup.

    This might change, but the first run is PF. Aside from Wheels MFG, there are some other quality options, like Praxxis that has a shell that threads together.

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    This is the one I have used. Was just over $55 CDN IIRC which is cheap for the correct tool for the job.

    Press Fit Bottom Bracket Bearing Tool Set | Park Tool
    Thanks for the link. The BBT-30.3 isn't overly expensive, either, but it doesn't include the fixtures for pressing in new BB's. Of course, I don't have a Park headset press, so I suppose those fixtures wouldn't help much without it (or one very similar to it).

  70. #270
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    Yes I have read that but it was written 5 months ago and his kickstarter page lists 73mm threaded BB under specs. and offers a SRAM/Truvativ GXP 73 mm threaded bottom bracket as an upgrade. You may be right about the first batch but I didn't see it mentioned on the website.

  71. #271
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    That's a good point, the upgrades on the KS page list the 73mm threaded. Maybe Mr. Berthold will update us once he knows. Believe me, I'm rooting for your take on it!

  72. #272
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    it's gonna be threaded BB for the first batch of production frames

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideallday110 View Post
    Looks like the real deal! I am very interested in making your bike my next bike of purchase.
    One question. If everything goes according to plan when is the estimated date for the release of the carbon version?
    Sorry if this was mentioned already in the post.
    Hi Everyone, getting caught up after demos.

    While it is still possible, I am not now actively planning to introduce carbon next fall. possibly spring of 2018 as mid-year.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    it's gonna be threaded BB for the first batch of production frames
    Well, I missed all the debate on this thread, that's what the BB will use for retention on the production frames. See, that's a pun.

    press fit offers some advantages in frame design (bigger shell makes that junction better) and theoretically better by housing the bearings rather than have them hung outside the BB. BUT, it seems the difficulty of producing a repeatable tolerance that can withstand multiple replacement cycles is the standard's undoing.

    for example, It took over a year of riding and thrashing and a few crank/bb swaps before my pre-production bikes started creaking. Now, another year and a couple more bb swaps and they are not even really press fit anymore. in my spare time, I'l get one of the kind that thread together, for now, they are noisy. Bad.

    So I changed the spec and redesigned the frame to take a threaded, 73 mm bb. It was a pain. It sucks. But I can't get behind that standard based on this data.

  75. #275
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    In the meantime, kickstarter has about 10 days to go (jan 2). A bad time of year for selling bikes, but I want to finish strong.

    So, I'm throwing down some new incentives:

    1) Money back guarantee to all kickstarter backers. Just like it sounds. You will love it or get your money back.

    2) Custom colors. $200 for single color, $300 for 2 tone

    3) Referral program, $100 off each for referrer AND referree. This includes existing backers as well as new backers.

    nOTE: not for swag........

    and look for some killer deals on high end builds next week. Seriously, like getting the frame for free....

  76. #276
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    a few questions and heartfelt congrats.

    Is it possible to buy the frame without a shock and I supply my own? Many years of riding and blowing shocks in the middle of nowhere make me wary of any but a few mainstream brands.

    Is one color choice a clear? I love the look of polished clear aluminum

    I believe the bike can take 27+ sized tires and am verifying. True?

    If we select a DVO fork do they have 110 plus size option?

    Is there a warranty with the frame? I've been a fan of innovative suspension designs from way back but have been on the short end of bad production engineering that followed good design engineering. I was an early owner of outlands VPP and went through 4 front ends before they bailed. Now I have a really cool CNC'd rear decorating the wall.

    I congratulate you tremendously on this design as it is truly innovative, creative and potentially transforming to the mountain bike industry. You have clearly moved the bar for suspension and I'm confident time will verify your design genius. Thanks for your passion and efforts.

  77. #277
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    Hi John,

    thankyouthankyouthankyou.

    One issue of fitting your own shock is actual fit. what were you thinking off?

    I am offering RAW at no charge. Polished and clearcoated looks great, but you're on your own for that. (or I could get an estimate if you really wanted it)
    Yes, the DVO fork is available in boost/110. The 29er fork goes up to 150 mm in that mode. and yes, the 29er will fit 27.5 plus tires.

    Warranty is one year, but I am considering extending it. I'm pretty confident in my production engineering at this point. It helps to have a few laps in.

    Outland. Around '95 or so, I sponsored Outland's DH rider with my 7" travel upsidedown fork. All I remember is his name was Alaska, he was from Hawaii and he slept on the trailer floor at races. The GOOD OLD DAYS.

    Thanks again for the nice words. When you put your life's work into something like this, all you want is for people to get to enjoy it. The demo rides, the great reviews....I can't lie, it feels good.

  78. #278
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    What size frame would you suggest for a 170cm rider? Is short not too small or medium not too big? Also how much are the replaceable dropouts? Sorry if these questions have been asked before

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconic83 View Post
    What size frame would you suggest for a 170cm rider? Is short not too small or medium not too big? Also how much are the replaceable dropouts? Sorry if these questions have been asked before

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
    I would suggest to measure the Reach on the bike your ride today. And also go and try a friends bike or visit you LBS to find a similar bike that got close to same Reach as the size that is furthest away from the one closest to your own bike.

    Then you can find out if the bike you got fits exactly out if sizing up or down it's making things better.

    Important to include in consideration is the length of stem and also type of bike you come from..

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    +1

    Since changing the geometry is integral to the design, it'd be interesting to see the range between climbing and descending.
    Harry, trying to get caught up on questions. I didnb't see this at first but it's excellent as it refers to the main advantage offered.

    It's difficult to put an exact number on the geometry change, since it has to do with many variables like ride weight and position, fork sag, rear sag, etc.

    But, with a static HT angle of 64-66 degrees (depending on exact model), it climbs more like a 70 degree HT angle. For example, having the front wheel come off the ground or wander on climbs is a thing of the past. Even at 64 degrees.

    I'm calling it "active geometry"

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian, a crazy idea inspired by Ibis (Ripley, bearing, Clemens, tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaqtqMGwRg) for the Kickstarter campaign: what about a dedicated extractor/press bearing tool ?
    I checked that out. but here's an important point. ALL of the bearings are pressed into the links and rockers. So replacement is really easy with a vise and a couple of appropriately sized sockets.

    Not too hi-tech or expensive, but it works great with no risk of frame damage

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconic83 View Post
    What size frame would you suggest for a 170cm rider? Is short not too small or medium not too big? Also how much are the replaceable dropouts? Sorry if these questions have been asked before

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
    Hi Iconic,

    Unless you REALLY like being stretched out, or have abnormally long arms, I would think you would be more comfortable on a S. For reference, the S used to be an M (with a 70 mm stem). Since the trend is longer, I reduced standover and made this an M.

    Funny thing is, this is the size of the demo bikes and I've had some 6'2" guys (184 CM) riding the bike and once they get a few minutes, forget all about it....

    I do offer a "size guarantee" to make up for the fact that I only have 3 sizes at this time. Mainly for production costs.

  83. #283
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    Maybe I missed it, but what is the headset needed for the bikes? I wasn't sure if it was a 1.5 headtube or tapered. Thanks!

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi Iconic,

    Unless you REALLY like being stretched out, or have abnormally long arms, I would think you would be more comfortable on a S. For reference, the S used to be an M (with a 70 mm stem). Since the trend is longer, I reduced standover and made this an M.

    Funny thing is, this is the size of the demo bikes and I've had some 6'2" guys (184 CM) riding the bike and once they get a few minutes, forget all about it....

    I do offer a "size guarantee" to make up for the fact that I only have 3 sizes at this time. Mainly for production costs.
    Do you find it necessary to have as large gaps as 35mm between sizes?
    Maybe worth checking if anyone ordering S or L would mind the gaps going down to 30 or even 25... since most brands have 20-25mm gaps..

    Im 183cm myself, and I would like to go up in reach for better high speed stability, but I'm afraid 470 will be to stretched out..

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Maybe I missed it, but what is the headset needed for the bikes? I wasn't sure if it was a 1.5 headtube or tapered. Thanks!
    yes, tapered, 1-1/8 x 1-1/5

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Do you find it necessary to have as large gaps as 35mm between sizes?
    Maybe worth checking if anyone ordering S or L would mind the gaps going down to 30 or even 25... since most brands have 20-25mm gaps..

    Im 183cm myself, and I would like to go up in reach for better high speed stability, but I'm afraid 470 will be to stretched out..

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    The biggest reason for the 35 mm gaps is due to the fact that I am only offering 3 sizes for the initial run. Purely economics and to see, really how necessary it is to have smaller gaps.

    I'm considering offering a "size guarantee', so you can exchange for another size.

  87. #287
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    demos in co spgs, sat, jan 14:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/39...94846?hl=en-US

    I'll be in a blue minivan around 11

  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    demos in co spgs, sat, jan 14:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/39...94846?hl=en-US

    I'll be in a blue minivan around 11
    correct location for sat

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/38...!4d-104.859059

  89. #289
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    I met up with Brian yesterday in Colorado Springs and rode both his Meltdown (27.5” 160mm) and Outburst (29” 125mm in the back 140 front) on trails I know well. They are rocky, with random chunk, sandstone ledges with some smooth bits connecting them. Rarely flat, with shortish climbs and descents.

    My background, I've been riding mtbs since 1985, I currently ride a 150mm Intense T-29 with 160 Pike up front. I climb to descend and am a reasonably aggressive rider, I like rocky, technical trails, speedy flow and moderate drops. I don't make a point of testing bikes, and won't claim to be an expert on all the current crop of bikes out there now, but I've ridden a decent amount.

    My expectations going in with the missing link suspension system were:

    It was going to have a dramatically different feel.

    There was going to be a notchy point or platform where it transitioned from feeling suspended to feeling locked out.

    The change in geometry was going to be overtly obvious.

    I'm not going to focus on the parts hanging off the frame much except to say the forks were fine, there were great tires on the bikes and all the components were decent. While those things can have a dramatic effect on how a bike feels, they are often personal choices and usually only detract if they are lacking. Nothing jumped out as spectacular, all good stuff that gets the job done. The frame construction is quality. Nice welds and CNC/forged bits, tire clearance is good as well. These were preproduction frames and there were a few minor things that were indicative of that, nothing that gives me any concern.

    Since both bikes share the same suspension system, they both have the same traits in common, with the difference in travel mainly affecting how quickly the shock ramps up (obviously) which correlates to how quickly the suspension stiffens and how stiff it feels on the same grades when climbing, as well as how much the geometry alters.

    Initially, the bike felt like other high quality bike I've ridden, not the “what the heck is this?!” expectation I had. It pedals well, stiffens up while climbing and gets plush when descending. What's the big deal right? The system feels seamless, it was only with time that I began to notice what makes it different. When you want it stiff, like under power, it gets stiff, stiffer than I'm used to with VPP. On a moderate climb, there's maybe half the movement I normally see, yet when you hit a sharp edged bump, it's instantly twice as soft. There's no abrupt transition, it's a linear feeling, apply more power to the pedals and it gets stiffer, less and it's not. Run into something and you've got plushness. It's simple.

    Now the changing geometry. Again, seamless and subtle. I never felt like the bike was morphing from DH mode to climbing mode, but it was. The change is there and is very real, it's only when you begin to discover that you are no longer adjusting your body position to make your bike work well at changing pitches that you realize that Brian's bike is doing it for you. You know that feeling climbing when your long travel bike squats down on it's rear end, the fork extends, gets light and you have to scoot up on to the nose of your saddle to keep traction? That's gone, you're pedaling along on the flats sitting square in the saddle, you start climbing and nothing changes, the back doesn't squat, the front doesn't get light and you're still sitting in your saddle spinning circles. It climbs easier and better than a bike with comparable travel IME.

    After I got home, I took a quick spin around while I still had the feeling of his bike fresh in my brain. It made it obvious that we are so used to the compromises we make on our existing bikes, that they are invisible. How often have you read in a review something like “Well, it's not a horrible climber for a bike with so much travel”? How much do you have to move around on your bike to make up for it either being too slack or too steep at the wrong times?

    With these bikes, those compromises are either gone completely, or much, much reduced. I'd need more than a couple of hours on them to be sure which is the case. They climb well, the 160mm climbs way better than it should, or I should say, than what we're used to. At no point did I feel like I was grinding up a climb on a low, slack, descending machine, it felt rather sprightly tbh. I didn't have to make a dramatic moves to keep the front end from wandering or becoming light. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you could set up a lower travel XC race bike that was a stiff climber with steeper geometry that didn't become a handful on the downhills. A slack, plush XC bike that was steep and stiff when you want it? It's possible. A long travel descender that climbs like a bike with half it's travel? It's possible. It could even be the same bike with different set ups. Crazy.

    There was one noticable moment when on a very moderate climb, only 3-4% probably, I rode up to a 8” cast concrete waterbar, just like a curb, but with a sharp edge on the 125mm 29er, which was set up stiffer than I am used to with more pressure in the tires. I lifted the front wheel over and rolled through and it honestly almost disappeared. About half the impact I'm used to and it felt more like I was on a DH bike. It was illuminating.

    In summary, the bikes climb and descend as well or better than any others I've ridden and you're not buying a bike that is biased towards one or the other. It does both equally well which is unique, this is an evolution in mtb suspension and it's for real. It doesn't jump out, shake you by the collar and scream “This is new!”, it's all happening quietly, behind the scenes. Add in that by simply changing dropouts and having a second chain, you could easily switch back and forth between 27.5 and 29, with plus variations thrown in and be future proofed for a while. For the money, it's a bargain.

  90. #290
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    Harryman, thanks for your thoughts. I ride two Intenses mainly, a 2010 Tracer VP and a 2012 Spider 26er, so your thoughts were quite interesting to me. I'm getting very excited for this year's riding season with the Outburst!

  91. #291
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    I previously had an Uzzi and then a 5.5, so I know where you're coming from. The feel is similar, but better, you'll really like it.

  92. #292
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    Missing Link works👍

    I was very fortunate and got to demo the 29er for 2 rides this weekend. The "missing link" works. The pedaling platform is stiff and efficient like a hardtail but that's the ONLY thing that makes it similar to a hardtail. It does not FEEL like a hardtail because the rear is plush even on the climbs. For example, I was climbing a very steep section and I got off my line and hit a tall rock ledge. My bike (a pivot Mach 6) would have got hung up on that ledge for sure. i was even waiting for the bike to get hung up but I kept pedaling and the rear suspension absorbed the rock ledge and I went up and over. That never would have happened on a regular bike and it even kinda surprised me. While that happened my seat stayed right under me and I stayed in a nice upright climbing position. My buddy also cleared a very technical, steep switchback section that he has never cleared. The action of the suspension is seamless too. It never stiffens up or gets harsh but you can tell it's working. Then you go downhill and the bike settles nicely into its suspension and feels very plush for only 125mm of travel. I was very impressed with the DVO fork too. I run a pike now but the DVO felt just as good. The ride we did today was the Dakota ridge trail in golden, co which is a very technical trail and the bike was perfect for that type of trail. Another benefit of this bike is you don't get any pedal strikes. About me, I've been riding for 20+ years and I'm definitely a bike geek. I'm a very good technical climber but I am a little slow. However I make up for my slow climbing by going very fast on the downhills. I prefer very technical trails and I hit the bike park 6-10 times a year. I've been demoing the pivot switchblade, YT jeffsey, Santa Cruz Hightower, specialized enduro 29er and stumpy 29. I'm very picky with my bikes and This bike was very impressive. if I can get enough money together I will probably buy the outburst. I would recommend going with the DVO suspension. Also Brian is a good guy and will stand behind his bikes. If you are wondering I am not getting anything for writing this review. No free product or extra discounts or anything. I'm writing it because the bike is legit and it would be cool to see this suspension design get more popular. Plus brian has been great and it would be cool to see him do well too. Happy trails.

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellympaw@yahoo.com View Post
    I was very fortunate and got to demo the 29er for 2 rides this weekend. The "missing link" works. The pedaling platform is stiff and efficient like a hardtail but that's the ONLY thing that makes it similar to a hardtail. It does not FEEL like a hardtail because the rear is plush even on the climbs. For example, I was climbing a very steep section and I got off my line and hit a tall rock ledge. My bike (a pivot Mach 6) would have got hung up on that ledge for sure. i was even waiting for the bike to get hung up but I kept pedaling and the rear suspension absorbed the rock ledge and I went up and over. That never would have happened on a regular bike and it even kinda surprised me. While that happened my seat stayed right under me and I stayed in a nice upright climbing position. My buddy also cleared a very technical, steep switchback section that he has never cleared. The action of the suspension is seamless too. It never stiffens up or gets harsh but you can tell it's working. Then you go downhill and the bike settles nicely into its suspension and feels very plush for only 125mm of travel. I was very impressed with the DVO fork too. I run a pike now but the DVO felt just as good. The ride we did today was the Dakota ridge trail in golden, co which is a very technical trail and the bike was perfect for that type of trail. Another benefit of this bike is you don't get any pedal strikes. About me, I've been riding for 20+ years and I'm definitely a bike geek. I'm a very good technical climber but I am a little slow. However I make up for my slow climbing by going very fast on the downhills. I prefer very technical trails and I hit the bike park 6-10 times a year. I've been demoing the pivot switchblade, YT jeffsey, Santa Cruz Hightower, specialized enduro 29er and stumpy 29. I'm very picky with my bikes and This bike was very impressive. if I can get enough money together I will probably buy the outburst. I would recommend going with the DVO suspension. Also Brian is a good guy and will stand behind his bikes. If you are wondering I am not getting anything for writing this review. No free product or extra discounts or anything. I'm writing it because the bike is legit and it would be cool to see this suspension design get more popular. Plus brian has been great and it would be cool to see him do well too. Happy trails.
    You do realize, when you use your email as your username anywhere on the internet, you can expect 11.4 kilotons of spam?

  94. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    You do realize, when you use your email as your username anywhere on the internet, you can expect 11.4 kilotons of spam?
    maybe the email belongs to ex

  95. #295
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    Brian.
    Since you have mentioned even longer travel then 160mm should be equaly pedal efficient but even more efficient for steep climb and decending due to greater geometry adaption range.
    So what do you think the limit might be? And do you see any possible drawback except increased weight?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  96. #296
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    Thank you

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    Sounds like a killer suspension design. I feel it's a shame that one of the big boys with big resources didn't pay the licensing costs for this rear suspension design. Several of them really need the help quite frankly.

    The great thing about globalization and Asian manufacturing is that Tantrum can soon have the ability to manufacturer his own CF frames utilizing these outfits.

    I really wish him luck and hope's he makes enough that he can spend a few hours every day riding his bikes!

  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Sounds like a killer suspension design. I feel it's a shame that one of the big boys with big resources didn't pay the licensing costs for this rear suspension design. Several of them really need the help quite frankly.

    The great thing about globalization and Asian manufacturing is that Tantrum can soon have the ability to manufacturer his own CF frames utilizing these outfits.

    I really wish him luck and hope's he makes enough that he can spend a few hours every day riding his bikes!
    CF isn't happening anytime soon- molds alone are a 60k+ investment alone per frame size. Where he does have an advantage- is each frame size can be made into any model with links and drop outs.
    OG Ripley v2
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  99. #299
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    Hi Everyone,

    First, thanks to the guys meeting me for demos and showing me the awesome trails....that the bike is perfect for. And for the great reviews. I have to admit, after working so hard on something, the reviews never get old.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Brian.
    Since you have mentioned even longer travel then 160mm should be equaly pedal efficient but even more efficient for steep climb and decending due to greater geometry adaption range.
    So what do you think the limit might be? And do you see any possible drawback except increased weight?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    I think the limit of "active geometry", might be the ability to control it kinematically.

    It isn't easy to get everything happening in the right direction at the right time. Especially with multiple concentric arcs.

    But I've worked out the 180 mm travel and it looks pretty good.

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