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  1. #2101
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    As always cool infos.

    So begs the question - why don't manufactures just go back to smaller volume shocks in the first place? Is there some advantage to large volume with spacers in??

    Would a coil shock work well with the Missing link design? or pointless extra weight with less adjustment?

    Which leads me to another question... do we need to be careful of bulkier shocks and/or with parts sticking out to the sides due to the recessed downtube mount or will just about any 200x57 shock fit? For instance Cane Creek seem to have quite wide cans/parts sticking out on a few of their shocks from what I can see...

  2. #2102
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    if shock manufacturers would post dimensions and stroke then it would be easy to figure out if X fits T

    canecreek, for example, does not post dimensions of their shocks...or I couldn't find it.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  3. #2103
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    Are there shock dimension limits for the Medium frame that I can work with?... then I can find out some way or another about shocks I'm interested in.

    Despite being top end of my budget the CC shocks do look v nice and I've heard good things - anyone else here had experience with them?

    Was planning to go with RockShox to match the forks but have this nagging feeling I'm kinda stabbing in the dark as to what exactly is an upgrade from the X-Fusion ... is it good plan to go with piggy back if possible? I'm guessing yes...?

  4. #2104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyGreg View Post
    As always cool infos.

    So begs the question - why don't manufactures just go back to smaller volume shocks in the first place? Is there some advantage to large volume with spacers in??

    Would a coil shock work well with the Missing link design? or pointless extra weight with less adjustment?

    Which leads me to another question... do we need to be careful of bulkier shocks and/or with parts sticking out to the sides due to the recessed downtube mount or will just about any 200x57 shock fit? For instance Cane Creek seem to have quite wide cans/parts sticking out on a few of their shocks from what I can see...
    The shock are sneaking back on the positive can side. I think they all realized it went overboard. The advantage of spacers really is the tuning ability. The volume is the volume, doesn't matter how it gets there.

    So, if you put an air shock on a really rising rate suspension, say designed for a coil, you'd leave some spacers out compared to a bike designed for an air shock.

    I want to put a coil on sometime to try, but I'm busy and I don't see it as anything but testing for a possible DH bike at this point. For sure it would take some bump rubber tweaking and a rising rate spring.

    And packaging is a HUGE consideration. Not just getting it in, but clearance at full travel. I came THIS close to shooting myself in the foot with that, since I switched to the DVO very late in the process. I originally designed the bike with a Fox rp23 shock, just about the smallest package around, the XF was right there.

    BUT, I will state. Anybody that wants to put a different shock in, ask yourself what you are after? Because the DVO is pretty damned tuneable inside.

    The damping I spec'd? At first, they gave me a shock with standard valving. A quick ride confirmed a very "quality" stroke with great neg spring action, but overdamped.

    So, I asked for one step softer damping across the board. The sent it, it felt good and that's what you all have.

    In my other OTHER spare time, I have my own ideas for an improved stack....time waits for no one......

  5. #2105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyGreg View Post
    Are there shock dimension limits for the Medium frame that I can work with?... then I can find out some way or another about shocks I'm interested in.

    Despite being top end of my budget the CC shocks do look v nice and I've heard good things - anyone else here had experience with them?

    Was planning to go with RockShox to match the forks but have this nagging feeling I'm kinda stabbing in the dark as to what exactly is an upgrade from the X-Fusion ... is it good plan to go with piggy back if possible? I'm guessing yes...?
    The only thing I can tell you is 200 x 57 for the 160 mm travel and 8 x 18 hardware on both ends.

    The reality is that I have not tried ANY other shocks other than

    XF
    Fox (Float, float X and CTD)
    DVO Topaz

    XF, you know. Works pretty well, but has some limitations.

    Fox? Wouldn't give me ANY valving options, because no other OE uses a softer valving, so they weren't going to make one for me. Sooo a little harsher in the X, with very high pressure needed.

    The Regular non resi Float shock worked ok, about the same as the XF, since it WAS available with softer damping.

    The DVO, plush as butter. Better than any of the above in just about any respect. ALMOST universally loved by customers, at least once we get the Vol right for the big jumpers.

    Get a DVO, peel the stickers off (my one gripe, the stickers) and make your own gold ones!! Make some for me too.

    The only thing I can tell you about ANY other shock is, make sure it fits at both ends of the travel. Make sure it 's full of vol spacers. Make sure it has soft compression damping with no platform.

    having said aLL of that, since you have the XF, they only came with very small Vol spacers. Less needed than the DVO because the can is so small, but on my personal XF shock, I have a bigger one (that I made). So if you need more bottoming resistance, that's pretty easy.

  6. #2106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The DVO, plush as butter. Better than any of the above in just about any respect. ALMOST universally loved by customers
    I'm the "almost." I'm a fan of their support team; their staff is ace. Jury's still out on the shock, esp since my bladder NEVER holds pressure. Inflate to 200, go ride. Come back 4 days later, it's down to 140. Repeat.

    Anyway...I plan to post my adventures once I have time.

  7. #2107
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I'm the "almost." I'm a fan of their support team; their staff is ace. Jury's still out on the shock, esp since my bladder NEVER holds pressure. Inflate to 200, go ride. Come back 4 days later, it's down to 140. Repeat.

    Anyway...I plan to post my adventures once I have time.
    Isn't that the second shock I sent you? Pretty sure I have your first one sitting here untouched.

    Oh, wait, you're talking about the resi can. You will NEVER see the pressure you put in without a gage that retracts the schrader pin first. The vol in the can is so samll that even the fraction that escapes drops it 30 psi in my use.

    So, I pump it up to 230 and forget about it. I actually haven't rechecked any of my test shock, since I'm testing bottoming, etc, I figured I'd notice if it went low.

    Have you tried setting the pressure, then immediately rechecking it?

  8. #2108
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    Yep, second shock. First one wouldn't hold in the main can, so a different issue. I can't pump to 230 in the bladder and forget about it with this one because a week later, it'll be 140 in the bladder. It's dropping a lot more than "gauge disconnect" causes. I've done the immediate recheck, and that reads about ~170 after inflating to 200, which I expect and would count as normal if it stayed there.

    Main can is acting as expected, no issues there. Shock's in my garage (read: not on the bike) for the time being, but I'll get back to it once I successfully alter the disc stack.

  9. #2109
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    Oh, and I do want to add that DVO was AWESOME about getting me a replacement part. Ronnie always answered email, and when he said to call them regarding parts, I got a HUMAN on the phone (Geoff Welch, who is pretty "high up" at DVO) along with Ronnie, had an actual conversation, and they had parts in the mail within 12 hours. Try that with other companies. Big props there.

  10. #2110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Yep, second shock. First one wouldn't hold in the main can, so a different issue. I can't pump to 230 in the bladder and forget about it with this one because a week later, it'll be 140 in the bladder. It's dropping a lot more than "gauge disconnect" causes. I've done the immediate recheck, and that reads about ~170 after inflating to 200, which I expect and would count as normal if it stayed there.

    Main can is acting as expected, no issues there. Shock's in my garage (read: not on the bike) for the time being, but I'll get back to it once I successfully alter the disc stack.
    mine does the same. I check bladder pre-ride every time and top it off. it's fine for a ride or next ride, but drops over 4 days. But DVO even says check it all the time.

    is it a problem, or functions as designed ? it is not a problem for -me- is all I can say.

    sure I'd love something I can fill once and forget, like the can or diamond air chamber...but it is an extremely small space, and the seals and valves are quite normal, not lab-grade gas-proof, so [to me] there is zero issue with a small chamber like that, held at 200psi, to droop a bit in a few days and top it off it like checking tire pressure pre-ride.

    I check front and rear tire pre ride, and the bladder.

    if it farted down from 200 to 170 in one 5 hour ride then I'd be asking DVO for a fix.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  11. #2111
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    Thanks again Brian - DVO does make sense performance wise!... But that green ano ... aggh haha.

    Food for thought with the rest of the info - thanks for the answer re coil - may need to research a few things to fully understand with my limited suspension knowledge but I get the gist of it.

    Really wish I'd been able to take you up on the offer of upgrading to DVO when you sent the frame as was a smashing deal but alas my monies were needed elsewhere...

    Nothing is stopping me from enjoying the bike so far so will ponder my options...

  12. #2112
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    So.......my shock has a big-ass white spacer in it in pretty much the same place you're putting that black one, but I see nothing in your shock in the photo that I tried to include above. Doesn't anyone else's? If not, this could explain how I can't understand why everyone wants tons of volume reducers in theirs. Mine was spine-shatteringly harsh as delivered (what you see plus five volume reducers in the can).

    IMG_20180808_180348124_HDR by ctbtyper, on Flickr

  13. #2113
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    Here's my disc stack as well, which from what I can tell is the "standard" DVO Topaz stack for both rebound and compression.

    IMG_20180808_170252099 by ctbtyper, on Flickr

    IMG_20180808_171912364 by ctbtyper, on Flickr

  14. #2114
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    @Brian.
    Any news on that new no-piggyback shock DVO are working on?
    I imagine it might become a great upgrade from pretymuch anything except maybe the Topaz.
    No leaking piggyback issue. No costly "climb switch" lever.. which we don't need anyway. Maybe some new technology inside also (like gass charged IFP damper Or "Oleo" type damper..?)
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyGreg View Post
    Are there shock dimension limits for the Medium frame that I can work with?... then I can find out some way or another about shocks I'm interested in.

    Despite being top end of my budget the CC shocks do look v nice and I've heard good things - anyone else here had experience with them?

    Was planning to go with RockShox to match the forks but have this nagging feeling I'm kinda stabbing in the dark as to what exactly is an upgrade from the X-Fusion ... is it good plan to go with piggy back if possible? I'm guessing yes...?

  15. #2115
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    Nowís as good a time as any to relate my adventures with my Outburst. I apologize in advance Ė brevity is not my strong suit, so I totally get it if few people read all this. Iíll try to keep it succinct.

    Iím clearly different than most here on the board. I bought the bike knowing it was overkill for our trails. Iíve been riding overkill bikes for years here because I like not getting hammered by obstacles and they keep me from having more back surgery, which I had twenty-one years ago. I don't get big air, I'm not a hucker, etc.

    Bike: Size S Outburst, built as a 29er for what most here would consider XC duty. Our trails are not very difficult here in the Midwest. I wanted mine to be basically a 140mm trail bike.
    Shock: Topaz

    First ride: 20% sag, 5 volume spacers. Result: Barely used the shock travel, bike was very harsh on impacts, particularly something like a root at high speed. Because Iíve had back surgery, my back lets me know very clearly when it isnít happy with ride quality. After this ride, my back hurt.

    As for the handling, I found that the front would wash out easily and the bike would ďfall intoĒ corners; it was somewhat reluctant to turn-in, and then it would flop into the turn. Historically, Iíve found this to be what happens when one is riding too slack of a bike on our trails. I was using tires that I'm familiar with (use the same combo on my other bikes), so I ruled this out as the cause.

    For the shock, I tried various iterations of volume spacers, settling on 1 as the best option. At this point, I still was leaving 8mm of shock travel on the table after an aggressive (for here) ride. Thatís about 21mm of wheel travel being unused. Decided to try 30% sag.

    For the handling, I installed a 27.5 front wheel with no other changes to the bike, taking the HA from 65.5 to about 66.8. Short version is this solved the handling issues; the lack of front end confidence was gone, I could rail corners, and the bike no longer fell into turns. Cool, info stored in brain.

    Back to the ride quality. After playing around a bit, I was now finally using up the bikeís travel on rides, but that impact harshness remained. Bike climbed like a scared goat, but I needed to get rid of those impacts. 30% sag was a good thing, though, so Iíve stayed with that.

    Bike felt like it has too much high-speed compression damping (note: I always run rear shocks wide open; never use climb switches, and wasnít going to start on a bike that climbs as well as this one does); mid- and low-speed felt pretty good. Researching the DVO shock, I hatched a plan on what to do internally to reduce HSC while keeping changes to the other speed ranges (and rebound) to a minimum.

    In the process of doing that, I FUBARíed the damper rod. Not knowing if DVO could get me a new one or how long it would take, I bought a 2017 Rockshox Monarch RT3 Debonair for a great price. This shock had the L/L tune (low compression, low rebound), which is why I got it. I never met a shock with adjustable rebound that couldnít be cranked up enough for me, so I figured the L/L would provide enough rebound while hopefully helping with my theory that reduced HSC was what I need.

    Shock did pretty much exactly what I hoped and wanted. Those sharp impacts are gone now; bike is on-par or better than what Iíve been riding for years now (Intense Tracer VP 26er with Cane Creek CCDB Air), and it clearly pedals/climbs better.

    In the meantime, DVO (Ronnie and Geoff) got a new damper rod to me. There are a few hurdles to go, but I intend on trying my ideas on the disc stack because, well, I have to. I used to tune shocks for a living, and I find it to be a great deal of fun. I want to make the DVO work because I think it will be very good overall with reduced HSC.

    Back to the handling: I own the same front wheel/tire combo in both 27.5 and 29, so I did back-to-back rides on the same trail, same day with them to see the effects. I realize that there are other factors (BB height, etc.), but this showed again that for around here and my style, I want a steeper head angle. I plan on installing the 1.5į Works Components headset to steepen the bike to 67į, allowing me to go back to the 29er front wheel. I bought the bike to try a 29er, and thatís where I want to end up. Thatíll be a while, though, as I donít want to screw that up, and Iím not sure I trust the local shops to get the WC aligned correctly.

    So thereís the story. I feel like Iím on an island with this one, based on everyone elseís settings, but I gotta go with what works for me. I need a plush bike that is more of a burly XC than all-mountain (remember that term?), and now I have mine working great. I'll update as I make the additional changes, but with my work and race schedule (cars, not bikes), I don't know how long that will take.

    Bottom line: Brian, your suspension design is definitely something new and does what you say it does. I had fun solving the riddle to get where I am now with it, and I have noticed that the segment PR's I'm setting are generally on climbing segments. I think that clearly points to the efficiency of your design. I mentioned earlier that my old bike felt like the chain was stretchy while pedaling in comparison, something I never noticed before. Looking forward to more rides for years to come on this frame.

    Ok, long enough...

  16. #2116
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    So.......my shock has a big-ass white spacer in it in pretty much the same place you're putting that black one, but I see nothing in your shock in the photo that I tried to include above. Doesn't anyone else's? If not, this could explain how I can't understand why everyone wants tons of volume reducers in theirs. Mine was spine-shatteringly harsh as delivered (what you see plus five volume reducers in the can).

    IMG_20180808_180348124_HDR by ctbtyper, on Flickr
    1) that white spacer is tiny compared to what I'm putting in. But again, if you're not jumping, you don't need it.

    2) If it was harsh, something is wrong. Although 20% sag is a little stiff for XC riding.
    I'd go 30-35 for sure.

    3) if the Neg spring is not working right, it will be stupid harsh. You can tell by letting the air out of the shock. If it doesn't self compress, the Neg spring is not working.

    Does ANY other tantrum owner think the DVO is harsh at all??

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    Did you confirm with DVO that you have the standard valving as opposed to the lighter package I spec? if so, ask them to send you that, N/C.

    BTW. Geoff Welch has really helped whip the place into shape, he started full time this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Did you confirm with DVO that you have the standard valving as opposed to the lighter package I spec? if so, ask them to send you that, N/C.
    What you see in my photos above for the disc stack is exactly what other folks (not Tantrum owners) have posted as the stack that is in their "standard" DVO Topaz, dating back before there were Tantrum Kickstarter bikes. I can contact DVO to confirm. I'd be very curious as to what stack goes into the Tantrum shocks.

    Does ANY other tantrum owner think the DVO is harsh at all??
    I know I haven't seen anyone here that thought so, which has completely baffled me given the way mine is. My shock sucks down when you deflate it, so neg should be working.

    How about the white spacer? Anyone else have one of those in theirs? I didn't give it a second thought until I saw Brian's post with all the spacers in it.

  19. #2119
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    What you see in my photos above for the disc stack is exactly what other folks (not Tantrum owners) have posted as the stack that is in their "standard" DVO Topaz, dating back before there were Tantrum Kickstarter bikes. I can contact DVO to confirm. I'd be very curious as to what stack goes into the Tantrum shocks.



    I know I haven't seen anyone here that thought so, which has completely baffled me given the way mine is. My shock sucks down when you deflate it, so neg should be working.

    How about the white spacer? Anyone else have one of those in theirs? I didn't give it a second thought until I saw Brian's post with all the spacers in it.
    they gave me the spec for "my" stack....it's somewhere around here. it would be unfortunate if they sent me some shocks without changing it. But even at that, I rode it with the standard stack and no way was it ever harsh. Just a little "slow".

    If someone feels differently about their bike, speak up. when you hit something. I'll say almost anything, from a 1" root to a 10" curb, the rear end should move out of the way so fast you think the tire momentarily went flat.

    If not, something is wrong.

    Some people have the small white one. If you were more of an XC app, I used that one. if you were more of a jumper, I used some that were bigger, but nowhere near as large as the latest. And they were applied inconsistently, since I was modifying some Fox initially, then started making my own.

    What PSI were you running in the main can? for what rider weight?

  20. #2120
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    I'm getting old; I don't clearly remember what psi I was running. I didn't need to adjust it for a couple months (like I said, the main can was holding fine, just had to fill the bladder each time), and now I've been running a different shock with way different value for nearly a month as well as another bike before I had the other shock. I want to say it was right around 200 psi with one volume reducer for 160-165 lb of rider/gear to get 30% sag.

  21. #2121
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    I have had a really strange experience with bladder pressure. I am blowing through rear end travel when simply boosting off small rock outcroppings onto smooth trail. I pumped up bladder to 200psi, removed pump only to hear quite a hiss, checked pressure and it read 140psi tried over & over. Went and bought a shock pump that isolates the valve and releases the valve pin before removing hose and itís the same story. Iíve tried attaching the hose most of the way and pressurizing the hose also.

    Will play with it more. I have 5 spacers in positive and negative. Looking forward to trying the new bottom out bumper.

    Iíve been out with injury since spring and havenít been able to test many settings.

  22. #2122
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I'm getting old; I don't clearly remember what psi I was running. I didn't need to adjust it for a couple months (like I said, the main can was holding fine, just had to fill the bladder each time), and now I've been running a different shock with way different value for nearly a month as well as another bike before I had the other shock. I want to say it was right around 200 psi with one volume reducer for 160-165 lb of rider/gear to get 30% sag.
    sounds close enough. what psi in the Rockshox?

    Maybe I'll send you the shock off my outburst to try.

    Speaking of shocks, did you get a 200 x 50 mm shock? That's what's used for the 140 mm travel

  23. #2123
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelfunman View Post
    I have had a really strange experience with bladder pressure. I am blowing through rear end travel when simply boosting off small rock outcroppings onto smooth trail. I pumped up bladder to 200psi, removed pump only to hear quite a hiss, checked pressure and it read 140psi tried over & over. Went and bought a shock pump that isolates the valve and releases the valve pin before removing hose and itís the same story. Iíve tried attaching the hose most of the way and pressurizing the hose also.

    Will play with it more. I have 5 spacers in positive and negative. Looking forward to trying the new bottom out bumper.

    Iíve been out with injury since spring and havenít been able to test many settings.
    I've been meaning to do this for some time. I now have a glorious test/demo fleet of 7 bikes. All having various levels of riding time and time since checking pressures.

    The first thing I did was check the pressure drop with 2 different DVO pumps. Same result. Set at 230, unscrew (not completely, just enough to let it out), recheck at 170.

    60 psi drop in every shock. Now, obviously, the hose if full and it all escapes when released, accounting for at least most of the hiss. The argument is whether the schrader pins seals up before the pressure change allows it to escape the resi.

    In F1/Indy we used a nitrogen tank with an isolater pin to be sure, but you are getting the same drop.

    But, of course when you reattach, the hose has to fill up as well, so it will be lower than what was in the can.

    Anyway, I use 230 as a compromise. I figure if it drops 60 psi, that would = to 170 fill, which is DVO's recommended minimum.

    Now the bad news, the results of my pressure check today.

    my wife's bike, admittedly the least critical although it got demo'd at Dirt Fest, PA in April), had 30 psi in the can.......She does ride the bike on part of the same trail I ride, but only uses about 3/4 of the travel. Still, it WAS set at 230 at some point......

    I had 4 bikes at 80

    Two bikes were at 105, which if you discount the 60psi, would put them at 165, but one of them the Albino Lizard Shinning Monster Truck Beast, was last checked a couple days ago when I put the latest spacer in..at 230. So if it didn't lose any, it would have been at 170. Call that 65 psi down in 2-3 days.

    Funny, I'm a shock guy, but I can be a lazy shock guy. I wasn't TESTING resi pressures anymore, so I stopped caring, plus with 7 bikes, they have a tendency to be checked only right before they're ridden, simply because I'll set them up for each rider.

    Lesson learned AGAIN. We actually visited this when Gunnar got the very first KS bike.......maybe thugh/hoped it was isolated.

    Lesson learned. Yes, along with TP, which I am rigorous about, check the freakin resi AT LEAST every 2-3 days.

  24. #2124
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    sounds close enough. what psi in the Rockshox?

    Maybe I'll send you the shock off my outburst to try.

    Speaking of shocks, did you get a 200 x 50 mm shock? That's what's used for the 140 mm travel
    160-165 for Rockshox and 30%. Yep, 200x51 to match the DVO.

  25. #2125
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    I had noticed the same thing with the bladder pressure. Pump it up to 200 check it a week later and it was usually down around 110. I just kept pumping it up before a ride. It did seem to make some difference in plushness. This is of course back when I had a bike. (Heavy sigh)

  26. #2126
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    There's a trail in my area that is new, and last year while riding it I thought, "I'll bet the Tantrum would dominate on this." I finally got to ride my mostly-sorted Tantrum on that trail this weekend. Yep, the bike was great as I had hoped! I admittedly don't have that many rides on this trail, but my two laps yesterday were a PR and #2. I think the efficiency really pays off. I wish that trail were closer.

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    I thought it was time to post a pic of my Lizard. Here in Chiemgau, approaching the Chiemsee for a bath after having mastered the Hochplatte tour in the hottest day of the hottest summer ever.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-2018-08-09hochplatte.jpg
    Last edited by lavolpeeluva; 08-15-2018 at 01:58 AM.

  28. #2128
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    One Year Ago....I think this is when I actually became a bike company. My first frame delivery. I wasn't even intimidated, but I had no idea the adventures that were to follow to get all the bikes delivered.

    But I did.

    Now I have to figure out how to grow forward.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-yogi.jpg

  29. #2129
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    I'm glad you made it through and I got one of them. Rode it again last night in full 29er mode on our local root-fest trail. It was fantastic. I'm very happy with how I have it dialed in. Once I get that headset swapped, it'll be even better. Gonna be my favorite bike. I enjoyed watching my friend on his hardtail in front of me standing for every root impact while I just pedaled away on the seat and let the suspension do its thing. Which it did.

  30. #2130
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    Time to chime in....I'm putting more miles on my "murtnat" and the best way to give a ride report is simply ride your old bike and it becomes crystal clear. The bike does everything Brian says it does. I'm riding mostly tight xc northeast trails and figured it might be too much bike. I would never believe a slack, 160mm travel, 30 lb. bike could be so lively, quick and efficient. My bike is a small 29"/27.5", Xfusion rear shock and 140 dvo diamond.

  31. #2131
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    Time to chime in....I'm putting more miles on my "murtnat" and the best way to give a ride report is simply ride your old bike and it becomes crystal clear. The bike does everything Brian says it does. I'm riding mostly tight xc northeast trails and figured it might be too much bike. I would never believe a slack, 160mm travel, 30 lb. bike could be so lively, quick and efficient. My bike is a small 29"/27.5", Xfusion rear shock and 140 dvo diamond.
    You and CTB have similar but different setups. You have a 140 mm fork with 160 mm rear. and mixed wheels. And CTB has a 140 mm rear with ? fork?

    The amount of travel in the rear does not affect the static geo, but it does affect the active by allowing the rear to go deeper in the travel in fast stuff=slacker. And you start with more sag so have more "steepening" when climbing.

    So, CTB, if you wanted, you could put a 200 x 57 shock on your bike, with no detriment at all. Normally, more travel means=pedals like shit, but, you know.

    But I imagine your trails are not entirely dissimilar, same with mine in Indiana and probably 127 up there somewhere. In other words, a little more XC/trail and less DH/Enduro like my west coast and Colo guys.

    And I admit, I am a little naively surprised that everyone hasn't fallen in love with my 63 deg HTA. At first, I wasn't either, but I kept riding it because of the aforementioned west coast. And going slacker and slacker. And I kept riding it in Indiana. And I adapted. I learned to stay forward in the corners, like a motox bike, turn in early compared to a steeper bike.

    once I got aggressive, I want it all the time. I claim unbias, I get to ride everything. I have another, near identical bike at 65 deg HTA. In repeated, back to back to back to back testing, I'm faster thru corners on 63. Not even DH corners, but 10-30 mph S turns and sweepers, berms, tight hairpins.

    I just have more confidence, more grip and more consistent grip. I'm not saying everyone can or should ride like me and I'm sure many of you are faster, but y testing, for me is pretty thorough. I'll ride each version until I forget about the other version and completely adapt, then switch it and do it again.

    I might almost be drawing to the conclusion the the Shinning, 160 mm 29er fr and rr, does not give up anything to my fav race bike Shinedown, 160 mm 29fr/160 mm 27.5 rr.

    And next year, DVO are making 170-180 29er forks.......I'm in. But I digress.

  32. #2132
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    Hi Brian, I haven't been following this thread closely, but when is the next release of frames? When can I order and when would I expect one to be delivered? Cheers

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

  33. #2133
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    You and CTB have similar but different setups. You have a 140 mm fork with 160 mm rear. and mixed wheels. And CTB has a 140 mm rear with ? fork?
    I have a 140 fork, but when I mix wheels, the 275 goes up front to steepen the bike.

    So, CTB, if you wanted, you could put a 200 x 57 shock on your bike, with no detriment at all. Normally, more travel means=pedals like shit, but, you know.
    I wondered if the frame had clearance for that at full compression. I have a few 200x57 shocks laying around; one of them should fit the Tantrum. Could be fun to try, though I don't really want more slack at any time form where I am now.

    But I imagine your trails are not entirely dissimilar, same with mine in Indiana and probably 127 up there somewhere. In other words, a little more XC/trail and less DH/Enduro like my west coast and Colo guys.

    And I admit, I am a little naively surprised that everyone hasn't fallen in love with my 63 deg HTA.
    I'd imagine our trails are similar. That's part of why I bought the bike, figuring you're from a similar terrain to what I have. At one point you were quoted a saying something like, "I don't have sustained climbs where I live. Our climbs are sudden and sharp, and I don't want to flip a lever for that." Boom. Exactly what is needed here.

    I've found the bike to be very body-position-sensitive at the slacker angle. If I happen to slip into my motorcycle roadracing habit even slightly and lean into the turn with my body, it flops and loses front traction. That doesn't happen at the steeper angles. I also can feel how much I have to horse the bike through some of our fast (for us) switchbacks; I have to consciously steer the bike through rather than think it, if that makes any sense. That's not unique to the Tantrum, it's a trait I've noticed any time I ride something slack around here.

  34. #2134
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I'd imagine our trails are similar. That's part of why I bought the bike, figuring you're from a similar terrain to what I have. At one point you were quoted a saying something like, "I don't have sustained climbs where I live. Our climbs are sudden and sharp, and I don't want to flip a lever for that." Boom. Exactly what is needed here.

    I've found the bike to be very body-position-sensitive at the slacker angle. If I happen to slip into my motorcycle roadracing habit even slightly and lean into the turn with my body, it flops and loses front traction. That doesn't happen at the steeper angles. I also can feel how much I have to horse the bike through some of our fast (for us) switchbacks; I have to consciously steer the bike through rather than think it, if that makes any sense. That's not unique to the Tantrum, it's a trait I've noticed any time I ride something slack around here.
    I've ridden a bit in Mich (in fact in most states). A bit on Potowatami (I've been to Hell, dissappointed I couldn't get a "to Hell and back t-shirt)

    Some other Detroit, Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids area stuff I can't remember, from the Indy car days. I'd always take my bike on the road and ride.

    Similar enough. Even if there are "sustained" climbs, like further south in Brown County, they are rough and technical. Don't need to be muckin about with locked suspension.

    I don't even use a dropper in Indiana, including Brown County. A lot of people do and expressed surprise that I don't, but it's just not steep and/or gnarly enough here.

    I agree with your comments on body position and to me, that's a huge advantage. When I ride upfront and aggressive, it just turns. But, I'm talkin feet on the pegs, head over the bars, in a crouch.

    And laying back (being a bit more centered really) in the fast rough stuff lets it rake out a bit, extend the fork. This is all kinda moto riding, you have to compress the fork or the bike won't turn, but when you drive it in hard, it does.

    I rode a lot of dangerous street bike (Kawasaki drum brake triples) but never road raced, but I think the trees around here would scare me off anything like that. See my neck brace in earlier photo. Riding forward lets me get my head and upper body around the trees sooner.

    I don't know, it's weird to try to describe how you ride and why. And probably if I never rode out west, I wouldn't be riding 63 HTA. I started at 66,then 2 yrs ago at Sea Otter I went to 64. Came back here and didn't like it. Changed it to 65. Went out west and missed my 64. Put it back and started to love it here. Went 63 on the production bikes and never looked back.

    but in the end, I'm selling my suspension design and just trying to package the rest of the frame to fit the infinite array of body sizes, shapes, weights and ALL manner of riding conditions, rocks, roots, mud, desert, steep, flat, tight, fast, jumps, you name it.

    And that doesn't include preferences and riding styles. I'm a motocrossing DH racer....that COULD be reflected in my choices. I mean, I'm looking forward to a 180 mm 29er front for Indiana

    I do intend for the bike to do it all and be versatile. So I'm glad you got it dialed for you, although the 27.5 fr/29 rr freaks me out.

  35. #2135
    CTB
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I've ridden a bit in Mich (in fact in most states). A bit on Potowatami (I've been to Hell, dissappointed I couldn't get a "to Hell and back t-shirt)
    Poto, one of our best. Bummer about the shirt. Note that here in the D, Hell does in fact freeze over, every year for long periods of time.

    I don't even use a dropper in Indiana, including Brown County. A lot of people do and expressed surprise that I don't, but it's just not steep and/or gnarly enough here.
    Exactly how I feel here. All the magazines keep telling me I need 800mm bars (my friend who hooked his bars between the narrow trees here might have something to say about that...) and a dropper post. Around here? Not needed or wanted.

    So I'm glad you got it dialed for you, although the 27.5 fr/29 rr freaks me out.
    That's just for quick HA change testing. Final product is gonna be 29/29.

  36. #2136
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    So while the rest of us wait patiently for a version 2 Tantrum, or a licensed version of another brand, I have some questions...

    a) I like to climb tech. Do current owners think the bike works better sitting and spinning, or stand and mashing?

    2) I also ride only SS. Anyone have any thoughts on doing a SS conversion?

    d) I had a dream(nightmare) that I also missed out on a version 2.

    vi) Keen to know if wheel flop affects slow tech rock climbs for anyone.

    3) Purple.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  37. #2137
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    it climbs everything better in all modes

    don't know why the term wheel flop even comes up, I have zero issue with this bike navigating uphill switchbacks and downhill swoopys and tight squirrel paths and whatnot
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  38. #2138
    CTB
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    The bike climbs very well. The active geo works just like Brian says it does on the climbs. No weaving, etc. Makes a noticeable difference.

  39. #2139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    @Brian.
    Any news on that new no-piggyback shock DVO are working on?
    I imagine it might become a great upgrade from pretymuch anything except maybe the Topaz.
    No leaking piggyback issue. No costly "climb switch" lever.. which we don't need anyway. Maybe some new technology inside also (like gass charged IFP damper Or "Oleo" type damper..?)
    I want that shock bad, along with their upcoming 170-180 29er fork. Still waiting for both.

  40. #2140
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Here's my disc stack as well, which from what I can tell is the "standard" DVO Topaz stack for both rebound and compression.

    IMG_20180808_170252099 by ctbtyper, on Flickr

    IMG_20180808_171912364 by ctbtyper, on Flickr
    Ok CTB,

    Just got off the phone with Ronnie at DVO. You have the standard shim stack. The one you are supposed to have deletes the 18 x .15 shim. So just the 22 x .15 and 20 x .15 on the compression side.

    So yours would be too stiff. Sorry about that.

    I recently got a shock from them that I thought was too stiff and I kept it instead of sending it to a customer. I'm gonna see what's in it. There could be others as well.

    Not to cause a panic, because I've ridden quite a few that were fine. I have at least 10 in "rotation" on demo test show bikes.

    I'm actually getting another, newer valving sent before Interbike. Even softer on the compression side.

    Ronnie said call him Thursday, tomorrow, if you had anymore questions. Since they put the wrong valving in, they kinda owe you.,

  41. #2141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    So while the rest of us wait patiently for a version 2 Tantrum, or a licensed version of another brand, I have some questions...

    a) I like to climb tech. Do current owners think the bike works better sitting and spinning, or stand and mashing?

    2) I also ride only SS. Anyone have any thoughts on doing a SS conversion?

    d) I had a dream(nightmare) that I also missed out on a version 2.

    vi) Keen to know if wheel flop affects slow tech rock climbs for anyone.

    3) Purple.
    Stevob,

    a) It is a climbing machine, it likes both sit-n-spin or up-n-mashing. many bikes can loose rear traction while standing this one does not. The momentum you can carry over very rough terrain is incredible, it just doesn't get hung up stuff like your used too. also find there is no pedal kickback on tech climbs, If you do get hung up, this bike is also much easier to get back on the cranks again up hill (the first 2 or 3 revolutions after a dab)

    2) Don't see why not?

    d) Don't do this!!

    vi) I don't experience wheel flop ever! you will ride straight up hills you have struggled on before.

    3) My wife's favorite color

    Hope this helps.

  42. #2142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    So while the rest of us wait patiently for a version 2 Tantrum, or a licensed version of another brand, I have some questions...

    a) I like to climb tech. Do current owners think the bike works better sitting and spinning, or stand and mashing?

    2) I also ride only SS. Anyone have any thoughts on doing a SS conversion?

    d) I had a dream(nightmare) that I also missed out on a version 2.

    vi) Keen to know if wheel flop affects slow tech rock climbs for anyone.

    3) Purple.
    At this point, the next available will be when I sell off a few show/demo bikes, probably at the end of the year, because the next batch should finally be pending.

    The main changes being a trunnion shock, which lets me lower the linkage and straighten out the ST a bit, which then allows more dropper insertion, solving that problem.

    I'm also redesigning the interface between the lower shock pocket and the BB forging, to make it fit together only one way, more foolproof in fixturing/tooling.

    And adding an XL, reach around 500.

    And having more dialed 29er options, including longer travel fork.

    To answer your questions:

    1) both. But when it really counts in tech, you're up off the saddle anyway, right? I'm lazy and I'll stay down as long as possible and the advantages are still there, for sure. But when you really get to that tough square step up and get off the saddle, the back is just UP when the wheel hits the bump, but then the wheel just pops up and over it, without the saddle sinking or geo slackening.

    That's what makes it work in the tech. One tester @harryman ? said it felt like the tire went flat for just a sec at the moment of square edge impact. But the suspension or pedaling response never goes soft.

    B) interesting. my knees vote no, but, hey, if your knees are happy about it....I mean I put a 28 T front on my eagle.

    6) At the moment, nobody missed out on V2. Because I stopped taking deposits. I didn't want the pressure of having everyone's money like I did for Kickstarter. I have enough to get the next batch going. There will be 200. I'll make announcements when I'm ready to take money, maybe when they're ready to ship from Taiwan.

    () wheel flop? I'm running 63 HTA with 29 fr wheel.

    *) Two purple frames exist. A customer has one and my wife has the other. And my wife's is staying forever, even when she gets a new bike. It's a collector. Custom colors on new batch? Everything has a price.......

  43. #2143
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    For V2 please go to steeper seat tube angle (with the same reach), slacker head tube angle, and longer stays. Even with the seat tube angle geometry preservation from the suspension system it could use a steeper seat tube angle. Once we have that the negatives of the slacker head tube angle when climbing go away.

  44. #2144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridge Rider View Post
    For V2 please go to steeper seat tube angle (with the same reach), slacker head tube angle, and longer stays. Even with the seat tube angle geometry preservation from the suspension system it could use a steeper seat tube angle. Once we have that the negatives of the slacker head tube angle when climbing go away.

    do you have a Tantrum?

  45. #2145
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    At this point, the next available will be when I sell off a few show/demo bikes, probably at the end of the year, because the next batch should finally be pending.

    The main changes being a trunnion shock, which lets me lower the linkage and straighten out the ST a bit, which then allows more dropper insertion, solving that problem.

    I'm also redesigning the interface between the lower shock pocket and the BB forging, to make it fit together only one way, more foolproof in fixturing/tooling.

    And adding an XL, reach around 500.

    And having more dialed 29er options, including longer travel fork.
    Just keep me updated. You know I'm gonna need one of these. What's your ETT number going to look like with a 500mm reach? In fact, whats the ETT on the current Large? Sorry to dig at "useless" numbers, but I'm old school and believe reach matters when you're standing and ETT matters when you're seated.

  46. #2146
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    Iíd also like to know expected ETT of the XL, Brian. Go 510 on the reach too!

  47. #2147
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    Yes backer #5

    Correction to above - what I meant was the same top tube dimension - the reach will get longer

  48. #2148
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    Climbing is a non issue in regards to wheel flop in my opinion. How it handles as well as it does is mind boggling to me and my tight xc trails. I am stretched out on a small frame(5'9") with the seat set back and a 90mm stem, yes i know it's not the normal set up of the day but the front end is planted firmly on the dirt....the way i like it.

  49. #2149
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconic83 View Post
    Hi Brian, I haven't been following this thread closely, but when is the next release of frames? When can I order and when would I expect one to be delivered? Cheers

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    Well, let's call them 2019's. As in, not likely till then. I have some production issues to clean up before actually flipping the switch. Stay tuned. When I have confidence on delivery, I'll start taking orders/deposits

  50. #2150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    Iíd also like to know expected ETT of the XL, Brian. Go 510 on the reach too!
    I'll post updated numbers when i get there. I know I owe you an email too

  51. #2151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridge Rider View Post
    Yes backer #5

    Correction to above - what I meant was the same top tube dimension - the reach will get longer
    Right. And I owe you an email as well.

    And your input counts a little more.

    You have all options available, what dropout/tire combo are you running now?

    And you are going to rake it out more with an angleset, right? That will steepen the ST as well.

    Why longer CS? You're the first person to even mention CS

  52. #2152
    CTB
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    So yours would be too stiff. Sorry about that.
    See, I'm not crazy like everyone here thought.

    I'm actually getting another, newer valving sent before Interbike. Even softer on the compression side.
    Interesting. I still want to try my idea in the DVO to see where it ends up.

    Ronnie said call him Thursday, tomorrow, if you had anymore questions. Since they put the wrong valving in, they kinda owe you.,
    Well, I did open up the shock because of the wrong valving... Maybe I can get a damn bleed syringe from them so that I can put mine back together, assuming I get the bleed screw out (which has decided to be a b@stard). No local shops here have them in anything but a $100 bleed kit for brakes.

  53. #2153
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    See, I'm not crazy like everyone here thought.


    Interesting. I still want to try my idea in the DVO to see where it ends up.


    Well, I did open up the shock because of the wrong valving... Maybe I can get a damn bleed syringe from them so that I can put mine back together, assuming I get the bleed screw out (which has decided to be a b@stard). No local shops here have them in anything but a $100 bleed kit for brakes.
    Did you call him Thurs? he said he would be out today. Getting ready to go to taiwan. Always a fun trip. I'm hoping he got my trick interbike stuff out.

    It looks like you are adding another shim to the stack? Or replacing the top one with the smaller dia?

  54. #2154
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Did you call him Thurs? he said he would be out today.
    Since I only saw the post today, Friday, nope. No worries, no hurry.

    It looks like you are adding another shim to the stack? Or replacing the top one with the smaller dia?
    They (DVO) seem to be controlling the high speed by having the shims bottom out against that plate. That is, the shims can only deflect/open so far before hitting that retainer. After reading one guy's adventures with doing basically what I'm trying to do, I've put spacer shims to allow a greater flow area before the shims bottom out on that spacer plate. I was mostly happy with the low speed, but I wanted to reduce the high speed comp. This should accomplish that. Actually, since I took that picture, I decided to go to 0.3mm instead of 0.2mm. Might be too much, but we'll see.

  55. #2155
    CTB
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    This picture might help make it more clear - I cribbed this from that guy I mentioned's post. What I've done is space the backer plate further away from the shims to increase the max lift, allow more flow, and thus decrease HSC.


  56. #2156
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    When eventually I get a frame, I really don't want to be pulling the shock apart. I prefer to set and forget.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  57. #2157
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    This picture might help make it more clear - I cribbed this from that guy I mentioned's post. What I've done is space the backer plate further away from the shims to increase the max lift, allow more flow, and thus decrease HSC.

    interesting. I guess I'm gonna have to pull one apart.....

    In the pic shown, is that a bypass slot under the shim?or is that just the rebound flow slot?

  58. #2158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    When eventually I get a frame, I really don't want to be pulling the shock apart. I prefer to set and forget.
    that is the preferred scenario. I can't speak to the inner workings of DVO, but I'm betting that my last minute order for 40 shocks wasn't the easiest thing. The did not have that many in stock, so I got them all in small batches. I can imagine one or two sneaking out without getting revalved.

    At least now they are aware. I'm also imagining that the next batch, given more time and more shocks, will be easier for them to produce consistently, (as long as they don't get too busy with Giant).

    Also, keep in mind that the DVO was a very late change, after upheaval at XFusion USA. It just put things a little behind, like vol spacer AND damping package devo.

    Also working with 2 different travel ranges (140-160) and styles of riding. We have XC/trail guys on 140 AND 160 mm bikes We also have some rowdy guys on 140 mm bikes doing bigger stuff.

    In so many ways, these guys are my devo riders. I do trust my riding ability and judgement, or I wouldn't even have been able to do this, BUT, I can't ride like everyone and on every type of trail, although I do get around.

  59. #2159
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    I've been following the discussion of the DVO shock while also running a ShockWiz this week out of curiosity and thought this might be of interest (I can hear the groan from Brian!). Pleased to see I was on the money on pressure but as you can see, high speed compression might need work. Not sure what my shim stack looks like and I'm not about to pull the shock apart to find out as I'm pretty happy with the way it's riding but when it comes time to service I might have a play. Upper image is XC type riding while the lower one is bike park stuff; settings identical otherwise. Also noticed shock positive pressure rose by 8 Psi during a lap of trails today, I guess because it's heating up on the downs?

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-img_2406.jpgNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-img_2412.jpg

  60. #2160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    I've been following the discussion of the DVO shock while also running a ShockWiz this week out of curiosity and thought this might be of interest (I can hear the groan from Brian!). Pleased to see I was on the money on pressure but as you can see, high speed compression might need work. Not sure what my shim stack looks like and I'm not about to pull the shock apart to find out as I'm pretty happy with the way it's riding but when it comes time to service I might have a play. Upper image is XC type riding while the lower one is bike park stuff; settings identical otherwise. Also noticed shock positive pressure rose by 8 Psi during a lap of trails today, I guess because it's heating up on the downs?

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    I was wondering how long it would take for someone to do this. I wonder - have you been feeling like the high speed was a little harsh, or noticing any particular problems, or was this just a curiosity thing you did?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I was wondering how long it would take for someone to do this. I wonder - have you been feeling like the high speed was a little harsh, or noticing any particular problems, or was this just a curiosity thing you did?
    Just curiosity really, Iím not very experienced with suspension so although Iím happy on the whole, I thought Iíd check it out. LBC has a ShockWiz they hire out weekly so no big deal to do.

  62. #2162
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    interesting. I guess I'm gonna have to pull one apart.....

    In the pic shown, is that a bypass slot under the shim?or is that just the rebound flow slot?
    I seem to recall that is the rebound flow port.

    Top tip when you take one apart: Even my soft jaws weren't able to hold the shock rod firmly enough to get the piston nut off, leading to me FUBARing the rod. Use a lighter to warm up the piston nut; that will loosen up the Loctite enough to get the nut off with a wrench. I don't have a cordless impact, etc., so I couldn't try that. The nut is only 11 Nm (97 in-lb), but mine would not come loose without the heat. It loosened the piston rod from the top cap before the nut came loose.

  63. #2163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    Just curiosity really, Iím not very experienced with suspension so although Iím happy on the whole, I thought Iíd check it out. LBC has a ShockWiz they hire out weekly so no big deal to do.
    A lot of local shops are getting ShockWiz units to do that with. Seems a lot of people would like to play with them, but few want to use one badly enough to pay for it, but a shop can rent it enough times to pay for one easily.

  64. #2164
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    Hey guys, I'm tracking a mystery creaking noise. Yes, I realize these noises can drive riders and mechanics nuts! I had to replace my upper shock bushings already as I had some play at that union. Figured that was the squeak but nope.... I pulled the headset, bottom bracket, stem, seat and seatpost out and reinstalled...creak is still there. Anyone else have a mystery creak??? Thanks!

  65. #2165
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    Hey RRR,
    Mine was in the seat clamp, Bike Yoke dropper.

  66. #2166
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    Thanks for the reply! I'm not running a dropper and I changed my quick release seat clamp to a Thompson. Still searching. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    Thanks for the reply! I'm not running a dropper and I changed my quick release seat clamp to a Thompson. Still searching. .
    Have you checked the pedals and chainring bolts? Does it happen when coasting or do you need to be pedaling?

  68. #2168
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    Coasting and pedaling the creak ppersists. I'll check the pedals next! Thanks

  69. #2169
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    My bike shop guru said the bearings feel pitted and not smooth. I have about 185 miles on the bike and I ride relatively smooth trails, no jumps for me. Am I the only one with a creaky linkage? I appreciate all the feedback so far!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    My bike shop guru said the bearings feel pitted and not smooth. I have about 185 miles on the bike and I ride relatively smooth trails, no jumps for me. Am I the only one with a creaky linkage? I appreciate all the feedback so far!
    Mine creaks like a MF! Some of itís a headset shim I had to install but that wonít be an issue for you, the rest is part seatpost part something else in the back that I havenít tracked down yet. Could be linkages but they are all torqued correctly and low Ks so I hope not.

  71. #2171
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    Hey guys, I'm tracking a mystery creaking noise. Yes, I realize these noises can drive riders and mechanics nuts! I had to replace my upper shock bushings already as I had some play at that union. Figured that was the squeak but nope.... I pulled the headset, bottom bracket, stem, seat and seatpost out and reinstalled...creak is still there. Anyone else have a mystery creak??? Thanks!
    pull shock
    and disassemble two main pivots in seat tube reassemble with some slickoleum...that fixed mine
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  72. #2172
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    That will be on my list. How were your bearings, did the linkage move smoothly with the rear shock out?

  73. #2173
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    Mine has a creak I haven't been able to find (haven't really tried much). I'll keep the info above in mind.

  74. #2174
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    yes linkage was all butter no issues there. just keep track of spacer/washer orientation when you disassemble.

    remove crankset, remove rear wheel, remove shock, go at it. blue locktite on re-assembly, and Brian posted torque values somewhere in this thread for re-assembly.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  75. #2175
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    TANTRUM DOWN ! (bike is ok it is parts that are stuffed)

    so this bike lets me rip pretty much everywhere, and when motivated, I can go stupid fast, things don't always go as planned. nailed a rock, bounced off a tree, bike went into a pile of rocks. SRAM rear der binged, but hanger is fine. i9 spoke on drive side got a nick, and that popped on the ride out.

    so, new der on order and replacing nicked spokes on the menu

    I have to ride my XC hardtail for now...which used to be an 'excellent bike' but now it's 'sh*t' compared to the Tantrum LOL. although it is 21 lbs so it felt great everywhere, it just ain't got any missing link marshmallow magic nor that Tantrum 'climbing in the chunk' pixie dust.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  76. #2176
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    TANTRUM DOWN ! (bike is ok it is parts that are stuffed)

    so this bike lets me rip pretty much everywhere, and when motivated, I can go stupid fast, things don't always go as planned. nailed a rock, bounced off a tree, bike went into a pile of rocks. SRAM rear der binged, but hanger is fine. i9 spoke on drive side got a nick, and that popped on the ride out.

    so, new der on order and replacing nicked spokes on the menu

    I have to ride my XC hardtail for now...which used to be an 'excellent bike' but now it's 'sh*t' compared to the Tantrum LOL. although it is 21 lbs so it felt great everywhere, it just ain't got any missing link marshmallow magic nor that Tantrum 'climbing in the chunk' pixie dust.
    Pixie Dust! Damn, I thought is was my awesome riding skill

    I was on a solo ride this weekend, I came up on two tech. rock infested sections with riders hungup everywhere. "Rider coming" Took a deep breath and blasted up both sections. I think I could hear their jaws bones dropping down and hitting their top tubes! Fun stuff!!

  77. #2177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    I've been following the discussion of the DVO shock while also running a ShockWiz this week out of curiosity and thought this might be of interest (I can hear the groan from Brian!). Pleased to see I was on the money on pressure but as you can see, high speed compression might need work. Not sure what my shim stack looks like and I'm not about to pull the shock apart to find out as I'm pretty happy with the way it's riding but when it comes time to service I might have a play. Upper image is XC type riding while the lower one is bike park stuff; settings identical otherwise. Also noticed shock positive pressure rose by 8 Psi during a lap of trails today, I guess because it's heating up on the downs?

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    No groaning, I promise. I get it. I get the desire to find out more in ways that are becoming available.

    my question is, what did it tell you and why? It looks like it is saying ti is waaaaaay too harsh. but your description doesn't sound like that.

    Keep in mind you are also running 140 mm travel, like cTB. Your bike was a few before his, but I'm sure your shocks were in the same batch, as the 140 mm option is in the minority. So it would be dyumb to rule out the possibility that yours also has stiff valving.

    For the record, I do have a 140 mm bike built up and it feels near identical to 160, until you exceed a certain speed/commotion. but it's always plush and composed.

    my other concern about Shock Wiz, a big one, is How does it deal with Missing Link input? Does it read the fact that the suspension in't compressing as much during pedaling and count that as too stiff?

    Without seeing how they manipulate the raw data, it's hard to tell.

    And how could you tell pressure went up? Does Shock Wiz tell you?

  78. #2178
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    Thanks for the reply! I'm not running a dropper and I changed my quick release seat clamp to a Thompson. Still searching. .
    90% of my creaks have come from the saddle clamp. Not the seatpost clamp, but the saddle clamp itself. Not brand specific. Or dropper.

    it just seems like I have to tighten those bolts WAAAAYYY more than I should. Or it creaks. And creaks. And a lot of them have 4mm head and/or bad access angle.

    If I recall, you're using the...unique SDG T rail system. No Data. but try a standing up test and/or a quick swap out.

  79. #2179
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    My bike shop guru said the bearings feel pitted and not smooth. I have about 185 miles on the bike and I ride relatively smooth trails, no jumps for me. Am I the only one with a creaky linkage? I appreciate all the feedback so far!
    I don't think the bearings are creaking. It's possible, but haven't seen it. Somtimes the drive link bearings (the ones that drive the upper shock mount) seem to develop a "track". The are under high load initially and only travel a limited rotation, so the don't wear equally. then when you spin them, sometimes you can feel it. but unless there is actually play, I wouldn't worry too much.

    I know a couple of the earliest, high mileage guys that threw some bearings in around 1000 miles and 100,000 ft of climbing.

    I would almost guess grease somewhere, but man, I assembled your bike!!! Sorry about whatever it is...

    which of course goes for any problem anyone may have. But I'll be here.

  80. #2180
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    TANTRUM DOWN ! (bike is ok it is parts that are stuffed)

    so this bike lets me rip pretty much everywhere, and when motivated, I can go stupid fast,
    Believe it or not, this is actually a difficult part for me. These are my children. I had one customer crash and be off the bike for a month. I'm like, 'is the bike ok?'

    funny thing is, I throw my bikes and myself on the ground with all too frequent regularity (once a year is all too frequent these days. See: neck brace)

    but it's the stupid fast part. Yes, I AM biased, but i find the cornering speed and change of direction to be almost violent. Sure, gobbles up rough stuff, but the cornering limit is scary.

  81. #2181
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    Quote Originally Posted by KONK211 View Post
    Pixie Dust! Damn, I thought is was my awesome riding skill

    I was on a solo ride this weekend, I came up on two tech. rock infested sections with riders hungup everywhere. "Rider coming" Took a deep breath and blasted up both sections. I think I could hear their jaws bones dropping down and hitting their top tubes! Fun stuff!!
    And thus the sad reality. When I do a demo ride and end up riding a customer's bike. You know, a 26 lb state of the art carbonium full on dentist bike. And I realize I'm not nearly as good a rider as I though I was.....

    Especially on tech climbs. On their bike: the back squats, the back hangs, the back loses traction. Fr wheel wandering, coming off the ground.

    Or all of the above. Doesn't matter the design. DW, VPP, Horst. The same, only different.

    but the same result. I can't ride anymore. I became stupid and talentless.

    Good thing I have a crutch to carry me into old age. you know, 20-30 years from now.

  82. #2182
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Good thing I have a crutch to carry me into old age. you know, 20-30 years from now.
    I do love an optimist. I'd like to point out on the shockwiz info posted, the high speed registers as way too stiff and the low speed as only a little. I'd be more inclined to think he's got stiff valving because the pedaling input should register as stiff on the low speed, not the high speed, assuming you can adjust both separately. However, in my experience, the low speed is adjustable, and the high speed is controlled by the shim stack.

    I know, I know, I'm internet armchair engineering over here, but you've met me. I like to think out loud.

    PS: Just think, you actually get old, you can sit in a chair on your porch and play harp all day.

  83. #2183
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Believe it or not, this is actually a difficult part for me. These are my children. I had one customer crash and be off the bike for a month. I'm like, 'is the bike ok?'

    funny thing is, I throw my bikes and myself on the ground with all too frequent regularity (once a year is all too frequent these days. See: neck brace)

    but it's the stupid fast part. Yes, I AM biased, but i find the cornering speed and change of direction to be almost violent. Sure, gobbles up rough stuff, but the cornering limit is scary.
    yeah for the very first production run from some dude who wanted to show his invention and get it out there, on kickstarter no less, this bike is unbelievable.

    Immediately it is world class and can stand up to any other 'equal legged' AM bike.
    and climb better than anything on the market.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  84. #2184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I do love an optimist. I'd like to point out on the shockwiz info posted, the high speed registers as way too stiff and the low speed as only a little. I'd be more inclined to think he's got stiff valving because the pedaling input should register as stiff on the low speed, not the high speed, assuming you can adjust both separately. However, in my experience, the low speed is adjustable, and the high speed is controlled by the shim stack.

    I know, I know, I'm internet armchair engineering over here, but you've met me. I like to think out loud.

    PS: Just think, you actually get old, you can sit in a chair on your porch and play harp all day.
    One of my main problems with shock Wiz is that this is simply an algorithm which takers EXTREMELY limited data and spits out some kind of answer based on WHAT???

    Without detailed info about shock position and velocity, chassis AND wheel accelerometers AND terrain info.....well.....what can it possibly know.

    I'm a shock guy. I've also written a small bit of crap code. I can't figure out how they can give meaningful input with what they are working with.

    As for old, I am deathly afraid of the possibility I may have to stop riding some day. I'm fighting hard. Maybe too hard (see next brace) .As for the harp part, the future is now. If it's good enough for Abe Lincoln.......New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-harp-play.jpg
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-abe-lincoln.jpg

  85. #2185
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    yeah for the very first production run from some dude who wanted to show his invention and get it out there, on kickstarter no less, this bike is unbelievable.

    Immediately it is world class and can stand up to any other 'equal legged' AM bike.
    and climb better than anything on the market.
    thank you kind sir.

  86. #2186
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    One of my main problems with shock Wiz is that this is simply an algorithm which takers EXTREMELY limited data and spits out some kind of answer based on WHAT???

    Without detailed info about shock position and velocity, chassis AND wheel accelerometers AND terrain info.....well.....what can it possibly know.

    I'm a shock guy. I've also written a small bit of crap code. I can't figure out how they can give meaningful input with what they are working with.

    As for old, I am deathly afraid of the possibility I may have to stop riding some day. I'm fighting hard. Maybe too hard (see next brace) .As for the harp part, the future is now. If it's good enough for Abe Lincoln.......Click image for larger version. 

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    The first thing that went through my head when I saw a Shockwiz was "that's no F1 sensor array, what good is it?" - and I'll stand by that. But I know a couple of people who have used one and felt like they got good result from multiple uses of the device prior to changing anything, and then multiple uses to verify. I don't doubt it's missing a couple tricks, but I'd say the vast majority of mountain bikers are amateur suspension tuners at best, in terms of understanding what they feel, what it means, and what needs to change. I suspect this device may help those folks quite a lot, who at best have the sag something close to right. That's as close as I'll get to defending it.

    Me, I'm a couple years behind you, and have no intention of quitting the bike. I did, however, learn several years ago to stop doing anything on the bike that causes me to see red - ie racing - because that's when I get hurt. Now I just stick to having fun.

    The rest of this post I leave up as a challenge to the owner of any other bike company anywhere in the world. Post a picture of yourself that proves you're as cool as Brian - the man has a strat leaning up in the corner behind him, a beer on the ground next to his chair, and he's blowing a harp into a mic. So help me, I could have spent hours talking to you when we met even if we'd never spoken a word about bikes.

  87. #2187
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    I'm sure you guys know that the ShockWiz uses shock pressure to determine the shock position and speed, doing essentially what an external linear transducer would do. You run through a calibration with it on the shock or fork so that it knows how to translate pressure to position. IMO that's fine, but how it uses that info and generates its recommendations is totally opaque, which isn't fine.
    Do the math.

  88. #2188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    The first thing that went through my head when I saw a Shockwiz was "that's no F1 sensor array, what good is it?" - and I'll stand by that. But I know a couple of people who have used one and felt like they got good result from multiple uses of the device prior to changing anything, and then multiple uses to verify. I don't doubt it's missing a couple tricks, but I'd say the vast majority of mountain bikers are amateur suspension tuners at best, in terms of understanding what they feel, what it means, and what needs to change. I suspect this device may help those folks quite a lot, who at best have the sag something close to right. That's as close as I'll get to defending it.

    Me, I'm a couple years behind you, and have no intention of quitting the bike. I did, however, learn several years ago to stop doing anything on the bike that causes me to see red - ie racing - because that's when I get hurt. Now I just stick to having fun.

    The rest of this post I leave up as a challenge to the owner of any other bike company anywhere in the world. Post a picture of yourself that proves you're as cool as Brian - the man has a strat leaning up in the corner behind him, a beer on the ground next to his chair, and he's blowing a harp into a mic. So help me, I could have spent hours talking to you when we met even if we'd never spoken a word about bikes.
    I'll leave the wiz alone until I get a chance to try one. I will admit, when I first started testing moto shocks 40 yrs ago, at first all I could say was "it made me crash". But I was sponsored by a shock company to come up with valving for that model bike (Maico), so I really had to learn to FEEL it at the same time. It wasn't easy and at first was a distraction, like, I have to THINK about whether the rebound is too slow while blasting through the whoops causing the rear to "pack down"? Or is the high speed compression to stiff?

    Not always easy to tell when you're saving your life. Even now, I still have to make a conscious effort if I really want to evaluate a shock change. Otherwise, I'm just busy riding, whatever it is or isn't.

    As for getting hurt on the bike, that's why I kinda laughed when somebody admonished me for my pic going 220 on the autobahn with no seatbelt. i won't be cocky and say things can't happen there, but man, that's not my danger.

    I've spent my entire life racing. As an amateur. As a pro. As a rider. As a driver. As a mechanic. As an engineer. Like, I've never even had another job (unless you count getting paid a few bucks to play music).

    Granted, I'm now a veteran racer (master in some categories). this implies a bit more wisdom, less recklessness and a modicum of slight acknowledgement of lack of invincibility. But it also means too dumb to stop.

    It's not even "racing". I was probably at less risk racing the Sea Otter enduro than my home trails. Because on my home trails, I'm racing. Who? Me.

    I'm racing me. I'm racing time. And yet, last week, after trying to set a PR sprinting around for an hour at 90 degrees and 90% humidity and then wondering why I feel like I'm going to die....I was just having fun.. It's not like I'm going fast. 90% can out climb me.

    I'm walking thru LAX lounge, on the way to Taiwan. I see Jeff Steber (intense) with what appears to be a travel electric guitar. Turns out he plays thru his headphones on the road. And has a hobby repairing and re-wiring vintage tube amps. He showed me his wall of amps.

    Devin Lenz (Lenzsport) has a shop where, among other things, he made a press to make skis for his skibikes. Brent Foes used to make off road race trucks and made some parts for me when I was factory Nissan in the 90's.

    I'm sure this kind of thing is more common amongst the smaller guys. There's a certain...for lack of a better word, quality, that might be part of this. maybe Intense has outgrown that status, but Jeff is Jeff.

    So. Thanks. Next time, I'll have my motorhome with my amp and my strat and my harps. Maybe a cajon. We won't race. Did I mention I was racing you on the demo ride? And that kid. (who bought a bike)

  89. #2189
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    for the people (customers) that think I am NOT COOL because you're waiting for parts, emails, stuff, and you see me goofing off here, I do try to post here at least when I'm slammed, because it seems to have the largest percentage of customers and people that want to know stuff, so I feel like I can reach more of you. Until I can catch my breath.

    I had to ship 2 bikes yesterday. The Northstar festival (Lake Tahoe) is next weekend. This is one great thing about Interbike moving to Reno. Sat/Sun are public days, Mon is industry day at a world class, lift serviced bike park.

    I'll ship 2 more bikes Monday, there's mostly built.

    I feel critical mass approaching. Fox introducing Live Valve. Only $2000 upgrade, plus a half pound. For an automatic lock out. That's it. The spotlight on pedaling inefficiency has glaringly come back. So is the rebellion against more batteries.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-shinning-tease-s.jpg

  90. #2190
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Did I mention I was racing you on the demo ride? And that kid. (who bought a bike)
    I don't blame you for not being able to catch me. After all, I knew the trails. Plus, riding that size medium bike of yours that I'd never ridden before that was probably set up a bit too soft for me I set several PRs up there I still can't touch on either one of my bikes. Pissed me off so bad I had to build another bit of trail up there for one section so the old segment didn't have to be ridden any more.

  91. #2191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I don't blame you for not being able to catch me. After all, I knew the trails. Plus, riding that size medium bike of yours that I'd never ridden before that was probably set up a bit too soft for me I set several PRs up there I still can't touch on either one of my bikes. Pissed me off so bad I had to build another bit of trail up there for one section so the old segment didn't have to be ridden any more.
    ok, let me get this straight, you set some PR's on my demo bike on segments that you now avoid....There's got to be advertising copy in there somewhere.

    I felt guilty posting in the demo thread, but I wanted to get that word out. Northstar this weekend, Sept 15/16, open to the public. I posted pics of the demo bikes there, my biggest fleet ever of 4.

    But the white lizard Shinning, now with 180 mm front fork, is beastly. 29 fr and rr.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-2019-shinning-s.jpg

  92. #2192
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    Is there a reason why the Tantrum decals are on upside down? I thought that was only for JEEP owners.
    Please tell me you have another set of those Green stickers! I know some guy that might like a set!!

  93. #2193
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    Quote Originally Posted by KONK211 View Post
    Is there a reason why the Tantrum decals are on upside down? I thought that was only for JEEP owners.
    Please tell me you have another set of those Green stickers! I know some guy that might like a set!!
    DAMMIT!!!! I forgot to mention I have your stickers!! I've had them for some time, along with the shipping label. And I have to apologize just like to all the other people waiting for bits. And frames. and bikes.

    As for the upsidedown Tantrum, a recent buyer suggested I do something different with his stickers. Since I'm left handed, I decided to put the left one upsidedown. I liked it, so I did this bike like that too.

    The nuns used to tell me I was a child of the devil when they's rap my knuckles with the ruler and put the pencil in my right hand. Maybe they were right because this bike is wicked. It's so laughably fast. 31 lbs as it sits, with pedals.

  94. #2194
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    Sooo, I recently cracked my rear carbon wheel, it's had a bad hub I have been nursing for awhile. New wheelset in my immediate future.
    Any reason why I shouldn't go 29er?

    No worries on the stickers Brian, I don't think it's been a year quite yet that I hit you up.
    So, your golden!

  95. #2195
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    I swapped out my sdg I beam to a Thomson and standard rail seat and that's not it, still creaks. I'll be pulling the linkage apart and check the main bearings in the seat tube.

  96. #2196
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    Quote Originally Posted by KONK211 View Post
    Sooo, I recently cracked my rear carbon wheel, it's had a bad hub I have been nursing for awhile. New wheelset in my immediate future.
    Any reason why I shouldn't go 29er?

    No worries on the stickers Brian, I don't think it's been a year quite yet that I hit you up.
    So, your golden!
    Whew, I had to check and see if I had sold you carbon wheels. Just out of research, what brand /model? I have delivered a couple bikes with I9 Trail Pillar carbon rims and I just got a set of WeAreOne Carbon wheels on I9 hubs.

    Those are the wheels on the shinning 180/165 monster truck. And I have to say, the fastest rolling, best cornering wheels I've ever owned.

    You are on 27.5 x 3"s? If you went full 29er, consider an angleset to slacken and lower it. I have a -2 degree set in mine.

    As for your stickers, I know full well that you haven't even had your bike for close to a year yet, so hey

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-weareone.jpg

  97. #2197
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleR View Post
    check the main bearings in the seat tube.
    If you FIND main bearings in the seat tube, please remove them. all creaking will stop. Also, check muffler bearings

    MurtnaT

  98. #2198
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    ok, let me get this straight, you set some PR's on my demo bike on segments that you now avoid....There's got to be advertising copy in there somewhere.


    But the white lizard Shinning, now with 180 mm front fork, is beastly. 29 fr and rr.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Don't misunderstand me. I didn't say segments I now avoid. I said I built trail as a reroute around those segments.

    There's your marketing copy. The reality is the old washed out jeep trail descent (one of the places I bottomed out your bike) was tagged up there as a place they wanted to get bikes off of, so they paid me to build a new, sustainable route that gets everyone off that. I bottom my bike out on that descent too, but that's holding back. I confess, I did not hold back on your bike. I mean, I was proving the bike right? Even if it was just to me.

  99. #2199
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Since I'm left handed
    That explains a lot.
    - CTB, fellow left-hander

    I always like that in Italian, "left" is "sinistra," because it is the sinister side.

  100. #2200
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    Brian, Completely busting your ballz on the stickers. You took care of me when it was Important!
    You gave me a bike, that in turn gives me great pleasure every time I ride it.

    As for wheels: Pulled off my previous stead. Cheap China carbon w/ Novatec hubs 45mm ID 27.5
    Hubs are weak. I had one small dinger in rim, and then flatted on my last run down at bike park. So I rode it down flat, knowing is was going to be replacing it. I did have 1500mi plus on the wheel.
    Thanks, for everything.

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