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  1. #2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Sweeet showbike Brian! I really wish I could meet up and join you wheelieing.. I'll make it next year when Mk2 is out!!!

    I finally got hold of more volume spacer-bands. The positive chamber had room for one more, wich should cure the slight bottom out issue on very harsh impacts/ flat landings.
    I have not yet bothered to unscrew the bottom shock mount to see how many spacers there is in the negative chamber, as I first want to be sure I understand how adjusting the negative chamber affects the shock. Will adding negativ spacers decrease the sag?
    In my mind it should also make it harder for the linkage to extend fully when climbing, wich I'd really would not like it to.

    This video cleared things up for me a bit.
    https://youtu.be/3HeL5NNHbFw
    But since Missing Link have the unique ability to change geometry it makes tuning a bit more complex..

    Just noticed this is post #2000 in this thread! Excellent opportunity to celebrate with a stiff Irish Jameson...
    hey G. It woulda been really cool to hand deliver your bike last year.

    Gunnar's bike was my Eurobike showbike last year. It helped us both that I didn't have to bring it back with me.

    vol spacers. Pretty sure your bike had none in the neg chamber.

    I'm still not sure of there overall effect on the total spring curve.

    And be careful of that andrex dude. he is one of the most rabid, vehement naysayers from the start. he has called me everything from an outright liar and scam artist to.......

    he is a smart guy and knows some stuff, with a mind closed like a steel trap.

    Speaking of vol spacers, your shock (being the first one delivered) has NO internal Vol spacer.

    since your bike, I have been working on my own on different internal spacers to get the curve matched better to the linkage.

    I started with none, inside or out, at 240 psi and could still bottom over harsh jump landings. with the latest combo, I am down to 190psi and it's really tough to bottom.

    I actually think I might finally have too much progression and can remove some bands.

    when I get home, I am doing a series of spring rate tests with all the spacers in and out, with the shock on the bike, to establish the actual wheel rate (essentially the spring rate at the wheel)

    and in my next care package to you, I'll drop in an internal vol spacer and you can start tuning all over again.

    as forrr 2000 posts? No Jameson here but I had a nice triple Knob Creek, neat please

  2. #2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    hey G. It woulda been really cool to hand deliver your bike last year.

    Gunnar's bike was my Eurobike showbike last year. It helped us both that I didn't have to bring it back with me.

    vol spacers. Pretty sure your bike had none in the neg chamber.

    I'm still not sure of there overall effect on the total spring curve.

    And be careful of that andrex dude. he is one of the most rabid, vehement naysayers from the start. he has called me everything from an outright liar and scam artist to.......

    he is a smart guy and knows some stuff, with a mind closed like a steel trap.

    Speaking of vol spacers, your shock (being the first one delivered) has NO internal Vol spacer.

    since your bike, I have been working on my own on different internal spacers to get the curve matched better to the linkage.

    I started with none, inside or out, at 240 psi and could still bottom over harsh jump landings. with the latest combo, I am down to 190psi and it's really tough to bottom.

    I actually think I might finally have too much progression and can remove some bands.

    when I get home, I am doing a series of spring rate tests with all the spacers in and out, with the shock on the bike, to establish the actual wheel rate (essentially the spring rate at the wheel)

    and in my next care package to you, I'll drop in an internal vol spacer and you can start tuning all over again.

    as forrr 2000 posts? No Jameson here but I had a nice triple Knob Creek, neat please
    Hahaha thanx Brian for maintaining my sense of bad conscience for not showing up at Eurobike AGAIN!! This time it was even more distant concidering both family and work, wich I have to stay flexible around.
    The bonus is I can keep rideing every day (snow or dirt). I'm sure you need more help next year when the good words around Tantrumcycles have spread, and things start growing for real!

    I had totally forgot about he's that "know it all" dude from Pinkbike!!
    Pleas anyone who watch the video I linked to should also do a search on *Andrextr* here ---> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/now-helm...bike-2017.html before making any conclusions.
    As Brian said. He seems to know allot, but also veeeery limited and square minded when it comes to new facts and dimensions around what's possible to do with a few links and a shock.. Sadly that state of mind seems to be common around many who reach a certain fame as "expert" and I guess he's only human after all..

    Back to the important stuff.. SPACERS...
    Actually My shock had 5 positive spacers in it from the beginning, and now 6. I remember you did not know how that first shock was set up since you were scrambling my bike to make it to Eurobike 2017. And I suspect your confusing lack of volume spacer, with my initial struggle with bottoming out and pedal strikes caused by the almost empty piggyback.
    Sounds good you're concidering trying to remove a spacer. I guess you mostly ride a bit smoother terrain then around here, and its only on most severe g-out bumps and flat landings I have bottomed out. So seemes like 6spacers should be enough for me.

    In my head... Spacers in the negative chamber will increase the recistanse (negative spring, reverse ramp-up) for the linkage to overcome to extend fully when climbing. Wich would counteract the main benefit of the Missing Link.. correct?

  3. #2003
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    these tools who geek out numbers from linkage and spout off about this and that don't know a stinking thing. the proof in this, -IS- the Tantrum and missing link. [vrock, calling you out bro, where did you run to ? Tantrum WON it's first downhill race, you gonna report on that ?]

    hell yes they can plug in the numbers and angles, but how a bike rides is another matter.


    can't even read and respect anything they write about any bike, because they got it so damn wrong on Brian's design, I know for sure anything they say about ANY design is bull-sh*t



    I am riding the hell out of my bike and PR'ing left and right and I am not bottoming jack, and climbing like a mo-fo. LOL to these self-important jackknobs trying to rate suspension design from a chair...frickin idiots.

    running a bog-standard topaz at DVO recommended pressure and 5 bands, ain't bottomed yet and it's super cushy, and climbs like stink
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  4. #2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    these tools who geek out numbers from linkage and spout off about this and that don't know a stinking thing. the proof in this, -IS- the Tantrum and missing link. [vrock, calling you out bro, where did you run to ? Tantrum WON it's first downhill race, you gonna report on that ?]

    hell yes they can plug in the numbers and angles, but how a bike rides is another matter.


    can't even read and respect anything they write about any bike, because they got it so damn wrong on Brian's design, I know for sure anything they say about ANY design is bull-sh*t



    I am riding the hell out of my bike and PR'ing left and right and I am not bottoming jack, and climbing like a mo-fo. LOL to these self-important jackknobs trying to rate suspension design from a chair...frickin idiots.

    running a bog-standard topaz at DVO recommended pressure and 5 bands, ain't bottomed yet and it's super cushy, and climbs like stink
    I can only agree on all above!

    May I ask your weight and psi you run in shock and piggy?

  5. #2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I can only agree on all above!

    May I ask your weight and psi you run in shock and piggy?
    [I am a tub lately. my girlfriend keep cheffing up bacon and eggs despite my protests]

    loaded and rolling 200 lbs, topaz is running 215 psi, bladder is always re-set
    to 190 when I roll out. using the bands Brian installed when I ordered bike. so
    that is 5 in pos ?
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  6. #2006
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    All delivered Topaz shocks should have 5in positive as even mine had even Brian did tought it might not have since it was the first one.

    I'm about 180lbs and now down again to start from 200psi after adding the 6th positive band. I've had 200psi in the piggy for some time. I will play a bit with less piggy pressure and higher shock pressure if I mange to bottom out again.
    The shock feels even a bit more plush now. Sag is about 30-33%

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    All delivered Topaz shocks should have 5in positive as even mine had even Brian did tought it might not have since it was the first one.

    I'm about 180lbs and now down again to start from 200psi after adding the 6th positive band. I've had 200psi in the piggy for some time. I will play a bit with less piggy pressure and higher shock pressure if I mange to bottom out again.
    The shock feels even a bit more plush now. Sag is about 30-33%
    yeah my sag oring is at the end of the DVO logo which is 30%

    some day I might bottom this thing obviously but it has not happened yet
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  8. #2008
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    Have anyone here had problems with the Magura plastic brake handle clamps splitting? I tighten mine so I barely can be twist the handles by hand in hope they will twist out of position instead of deform or brake the lever when crashing. According to my torque wrench that's just above 2Nm. Magura suggests 4Nm...
    I can see that the screws are not flat under the head. So they sink in to the plastic a bit causing a outwards/splitting force on the plastic around the holes. Since the handlebar will center the clamp I struggle to see why the screws are not flat wich would spread the force evenly and would not cause any splitting force..
    Most of the time i tend to put my bike upside down when doing adjustents. I'm always careful to not put the bike down hard or scrape the clamps on the ground. But I can see the pure weight of the bike could be part of the cause of cracks forming from the edge of the clamp where it makes contact when upside down.
    A washer under the screws just wide enough to cover the clamp around the hole would solve this issue..
    I suspect I ride with the brake levers adjusted to sit more horizontally then most others do.. wich makes the clamp make contact with the ground before the screw.

    Besides that I must say I really like the MT brakes. After going up one disc size both front and rear, they have all the force I need with excellent modulation. And the levers are the most ergonomic I have tried.
    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 1 Week Ago at 12:04 PM.

  9. #2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    these tools who geek out numbers from linkage and spout off about this and that don't know a stinking thing. the proof in this, -IS- the Tantrum and missing link. [vrock, calling you out bro, where did you run to ? Tantrum WON it's first downhill race, you gonna report on that ?]

    hell yes they can plug in the numbers and angles, but how a bike rides is another matter.


    can't even read and respect anything they write about any bike, because they got it so damn wrong on Brian's design, I know for sure anything they say about ANY design is bull-sh*t



    I am riding the hell out of my bike and PR'ing left and right and I am not bottoming jack, and climbing like a mo-fo. LOL to these self-important jackknobs trying to rate suspension design from a chair...frickin idiots.

    running a bog-standard topaz at DVO recommended pressure and 5 bands, ain't bottomed yet and it's super cushy, and climbs like stink
    It IS kinda funny isn't it? I mean, I first posted up as a skeptic, but then, who wasn't claiming they'd designed the perfect suspension. Brian was just one more voice. I just said look, if you did what you say you did, I want to ride it. So he brought one of the prototypes to me and I rode it. I'm just as sold now as I was then. I just need to sort out the sizing issues...

  10. #2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    It IS kinda funny isn't it? I mean, I first posted up as a skeptic, but then, who wasn't claiming they'd designed the perfect suspension. Brian was just one more voice. I just said look, if you did what you say you did, I want to ride it. So he brought one of the prototypes to me and I rode it. I'm just as sold now as I was then. I just need to sort out the sizing issues...
    what these knobs who rave about linkage program CAN actually do, is just copy and paste the numbers. for example, a known design like horst link, and known ride characteristics, they can calculate someone else iteration of the horst link and post up a nice graphs and say 'oh this will do that and whatnot...FINE

    they are simply mindlessly copying someone elses work and putting up colorful charts and still guessing about a whole lot...but it is gonna be close because they can compare to other iterations and ride results of prior horst link setups...

    but give them something ---new--- and never before seen to puzzle about, and they mindlessly just plug in the numbers like they are some super genius, and spout out a story about how it's gonna ride like ass, with colorful adjectives...and argue with the designer....and the lemmings who visit their site will all want to agree with them...but in reality they do not know a damn thing about how to quantify something they don't have 'already plugged in'...

    because I am riding the hell out of this design that they panned and rated pretty badly, and in what, 40 years of riding pretty damn hard whole life, this bike is pretty much amazing. and again as I will state, it is a great 'general purpose smash machine', but go climb with it and it's just something else entirely. no fiddling with some smart shock or otherwise needing to toy with settings, just aim it uphill (or pedal it hard on the flats or in corners) and ..well you know what it does because you rode it. it's baller.

    This design MUST survive and if I am still alive and kicking when this missing link is sitting inside an XC frame and 22 lb or less bike oh my frickin god it's gonna smoke -every thing out there-

    right now pound-for-pound this missing link will blow away anything else.

    I am real happy Brian built his first production run inside a very BEEF build, inside DH-rated toobs... because I am tossing this at chunk and it doesn't flex, feel frail, do anything weird at all, truly all I can focus on is how it eats up bumps and how it climbs with magic pixie dust and no fuss. this frame he stuck his awesome linkage design into is not gonna let me down and I have no idea how I am gonna be able to kill this bike.

    yeah I am a fanboy of this bike hard. I keep going out on rides where I am feeling slow and don' want to chase PR's, I go ride and say, well, at least I rode today....download my numbers and BOOM ...several surprise PR's yet again, because this bike kicks.

    is it perfect for everyone NO. does Brian have all the geometry to fit -every- rider NO not yet... but is that missing link suspension ground breaking and world class ? hell yes !!!
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 1 Week Ago at 07:33 AM.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  11. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    It IS kinda funny isn't it? I mean, I first posted up as a skeptic, but then, who wasn't claiming they'd designed the perfect suspension. Brian was just one more voice. I just said look, if you did what you say you did, I want to ride it. So he brought one of the prototypes to me and I rode it. I'm just as sold now as I was then. I just need to sort out the sizing issues...
    more like I gotta work on getting a bunch more bikes

    I'm pedaling as fast as I can

    got the Fiat up to 210 after allNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-210-kph.jpg

  12. #2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    more like I gotta work on getting a bunch more bikes

    I'm pedaling as fast as I can

    got the Fiat up to 210 after allClick image for larger version. 

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    Fortunately you've got 50 seconds before you have to make that turn

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

  13. #2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    more like I gotta work on getting a bunch more bikes
    I'm not saying there aren't multiple layers to this issue. There are multiple layers to this issue.

  14. #2014
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    Yeah, so I rode this thing again last night. 23 miles,
    [2.5 miles were road segments]

    Typical Tantrum ride....if only I had listened to vrock and andrextr LOL
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tantrum-sucks-lol.png  

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  15. #2015
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    Tantrum maintenance tip:

    (this is no different than any other bike with pivots)

    I was pedalin along one day after a wet ride...and wouldn't cha know, started hearing a pop and creak in my bike. on or off the saddle, and only a little bit, but certainly constant enough. But you know how that goes, it can literally be anywhere.

    while parked I could stand on one pedal and make it pop.

    OK at home, creak chasing time. What is was, was the two main pivots in the seat tube. My lower one (missing link pivot) got a little mung in the axle shaft/frame hole. really it was just a water stain on the axle shaft....when I cleaned it, greased it. creak-b-gon

    I had been skipping cleaning the bike anyhow, so this is just normal stuff. but since the tantrum has such a big ear trumpet (downtube) you'll know if there is a pop somewhere.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  16. #2016
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    With the 6th volume spacer finally in it was time to get some air.



    210 psi (200 in piggy) and I did still bottom out with my ~85kg /187lbs geared on this drop. Not much, but a noticeable bang when landing a bit flat so even my wife asked if me and the bike was ok to go on..
    Stupidly forgot the shock pump at home. I will try it again with 220psi asap.
    I suspect it somehow must be possible to add a another volume reducer inside the end of the aircan. A flat round peice of plastic of suitable thickness should do.. Any DVO rep here who know if that's been done before?

  17. #2017
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    [I am not DVO, I am a meat popsicle]

    In general the Topaz (independent of the Tantrum as the chassis)
    has been described as -needs more spacers for really hard riders-

    I have seen (but forgot where) that yes if you can find a suitable
    sized and shaped piece of plastic toss it in there, all it has to do is take
    up space and not interfere with anything else.

    the topaz thread in the suspension forum here will maybe give better answers
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  18. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    With the 6th volume spacer finally in it was time to get some air.



    210 psi (200 in piggy) and I did still bottom out with my ~85kg /187lbs geared on this drop. Not much, but a noticeable bang when landing a bit flat so even my wife asked if me and the bike was ok to go on..
    Stupidly forgot the shock pump at home. I will try it again with 220psi asap.
    I suspect it somehow must be possible to add a another volume reducer inside the end of the aircan. A flat round peice of plastic of suitable thickness should do.. Any DVO rep here who know if that's been done before?
    I think 230 psi for that drop with no internal spacer. Then maybe 190 with the internal.

  19. #2019
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    Yea Im sure it would be fine at 230psi even if i go to slow on the highest ramp. But I guess sag would be even less then 25% and slow/small bump sensitivity getting harsh?

    I will try a easy dogride with 230psi tomorrow asap I have glued the tear in my rear Slaughter tyre..

    Is internal volume reducing shim/tokens that fits inside topas aircan readily available?

  20. #2020
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    DVO sells tuning kits for 8 bucks and change


    http://www.dvosuspension.com/product...e-parts/topaz/
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  21. #2021
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    Thanx man, but now wer waaay past thoes "A.V.R" bands wich my positive chamber now are full of.
    Just went out to try how 230psi feels like and harsh it is! At Sag exactly half of the dvo logo is showing below the dust seal.
    I can't find that photo showing the sag measure.. Is that 25% sag or even less?
    So next thing to do I guess must be an internal "custom" spacer straight on the piston as Brian just referred to... Could easily be drilled out of suitable thick plastic. But I would prefere to consult DVO first to get the best odds to make things work good first try..

  22. #2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Thanx man, but now wer waaay past thoes "A.V.R" bands wich my positive chamber now are full of.
    Just went out to try how 230psi feels like and harsh it is! At Sag exactly half of the dvo logo is showing below the dust seal.
    I can't find that photo showing the sag measure.. Is that 25% sag or even less?
    So next thing to do i guess must be an internal "custom" spacer straight on the piston as Brian just referred to... could easily be drilled out of suitable thick plastic. But I would prefere to consult DVO first to get the best odds to make things work good first try..
    DVO doesn't have these yet. They won't until I order them with my next production run of bikes.

    I started using some modified Fox parts, then started making the specifically for the inner dimensions of the DVO can. An earlier (smaller) version of these custom spacers were in the bikes I took to CA to ride with DVO and also the Sea Otter bikes.

    DVO loved the ride, which , of course I wanted. The Sea Otter race win was good backup, as that course was very fast and moto'd out. Even at that, the guy that won my race, weighing about 205-210 w gear, nicknamed BamBam because of his style.

    I knew he would be a challenge, his O-ring on his own Santa Cruz (whatever model) was permanently off the shock and he was complaining about bottoming it and tire buzzing.

    So, I put 260 in and off he went, O-ring stayed on, race won. With the latest spacer, probably 240-250 would work for him.

    At that, I bumped mine up to about 220, just for safety.

    Because you do tune a little different if you're doing big jumps and drops and sacrifice a little plush.

    Guys that aren't doing big jumps and drops can use that extra stroke for extra plushness.

    But the newest volume spacer helps keep both, so if you ARE doing jumps and drops, it's probably the way to go rather than just upping PSI.

    I'll finish a new batch soon, now that I've actually made it back home from my eurobike exploits

  23. #2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Thanx man, but now wer waaay past thoes "A.V.R" bands wich my positive chamber now are full of.
    Just went out to try how 230psi feels like and harsh it is! At Sag exactly half of the dvo logo is showing below the dust seal.
    I can't find that photo showing the sag measure.. Is that 25% sag or even less?
    So next thing to do I guess must be an internal "custom" spacer straight on the piston as Brian just referred to... Could easily be drilled out of suitable thick plastic. But I would prefere to consult DVO first to get the best odds to make things work good first try..
    I keep forgetting, use the compression adjust switch for jumps. My spec for the DVO compressionn damping is waaay softer than everyone else, with no platform whatsoever, to absolutely max out the plush (I think I could go softer)

    But again, jumps anf drops are another story and only required by....not everyone, I'll just say that.

    The 3 position CD lever, while originally adds a bit of platform, just adds, I think a useful overall damping to the entire curve, good for jumps and 250 pounders, for example.

    so you may be able to keep a slightly lower pressure and then just hit that CD lever for big jumps/drops

  24. #2024
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    I did flick that platform lever to full dampening before doing that drop as I also did bottom out further up in some high speed rollers that I never quite succeed to manually clean over. At another 10psi it might do it, but I'm pretty sure I would like to drop the psi back to 200-210psi for regular rideing for more plush slow speed/small bump sensetivity..
    Did you get to talk to the Nitroshox guys at Eurobike? Don't think they had a boot..

    Some interesting reading her I think about speed sensitive "oleo" dampening. Sounds like DT now use the same patent as Nitroshox? At least the is some comments section..
    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/first-lo...-one-fork.html

    I'm sure an additional volume reducer will do it for me. The ultimate I guess for riders that want it all readily available on a flick would be if the CtD lever instead of adjusting the dampening, would operate a valve to the external airsleve chamber, (as on the DT Swiss/Fox Nude shock..) But I guess the future will bring a shocks (Nitro Shock???) that can handle it all without leverflicking, wich Missing Link already got its solid upper hand on!!

  25. #2025
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    Thought I'd chime in today. I'm one of those riders that hasn't said boo since I got my bike on the dirt. This is by design; I enjoy taking a new bike and tuning it so that it works for me, and I'm not done with that yet. I suppose it is a consequence of my job; I'm not paid to bitch about something, I'm paid to bitch about it and then find a solution, so that's kind of how I'm programmed. However, yesterday I did something stupid, and now my Tantrum is down for the count (nothing with your design, Brian - this was all me, and it's not related at all to your frame). Thus I was forced to ride my previous bike today while I wait for parts, which provided some perspective on my Outburst.

    I'm not going to go nuts with a huge review yet (I'm saving that for when I'm "done" tuning my Outburst), but I will say this: I chose a trail today that is very pedal-y, and it rewards an efficient bike. I've always thought the Outburst pedaled very well, both on flat and climbs, but I have not gone back and ridden any of my old bikes since getting the Tantrum. Today was a different story, and the ride confirmed the efficiency for me. The bike I rode today, which has been my favorite bike out of all of mine for a few years now, definitely did not pedal as well on this ride today. The best way I can describe it is that on climbs and hard pedals, it feels as though the chain is stretchy, rather than a chain. I don't get that feeling on the Outburst - it feels like power in = power out, while my old bike feels like power out gets eroded in the process. I also have noticed on the Outburst that I seem to be able to upshift on climbs sooner than on other bikes. Today seemed to back that up as well - I didn't feel like I "got on top of" the climbs today quickly like I have been on the Outburst.

    Also, this bike felt a bit more "weave-y" on the climbs; it has about the same static head tube angle (actually a bit steeper), but it is a 26er and also doesn't have the climbing kinematics that Brian has designed. It was a nice reminder of how that aspect of the Tantrum works and helps.

    It was still a solid ride today, but I do feel that I could have pulled a faster time on the Outburst. I have not yet ridden the Outburst on this trail, but I will.

    More to come in the future; it's been slow going here this summer with initially terrible weather (hopefully we're past that now) and my job continually getting in the way of my riding time (that's not going away).

  26. #2026
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    question on spacer orientation on the top of seatstays into the rocker

    I took apart all the links and cleaned and greased everything, and kept track
    of all washer/spacer orientation except the top of seatstays fell out and I lost track
    -------------
    the seatstay spacers are two per seatstay, and they are flat on one side and beveled on the other side.
    I have installed them so they are not rubbing the rocker, they are touching the bearing, but I am unsure I got
    them all correct.

    so, lets say this character (curly bracket) is one of the 4 spacers
    { left is narrow side of spacer, right is the flat side.

    anyone know for sure how Brian intended these to be installed ?
    this crappy ascii diagram represents the top of both seatstays
    and both pairs of spacers

    a) {} {}
    b) {{ }}
    c) }{ }{
    d) }} {{
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  27. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    question on spacer orientation on the top of seatstays into the rocker

    I took apart all the links and cleaned and greased everything, and kept track
    of all washer/spacer orientation except the top of seatstays fell out and I lost track
    -------------
    the seatstay spacers are two per seatstay, and they are flat on one side and beveled on the other side.
    I have installed them so they are not rubbing the rocker, they are touching the bearing, but I am unsure I got
    them all correct.

    so, lets say this character (curly bracket) is one of the 4 spacers
    { left is narrow side of spacer, right is the flat side.

    anyone know for sure how Brian intended these to be installed ?
    this crappy ascii diagram represents the top of both seatstays
    and both pairs of spacers

    a) {} {}
    b) {{ }}
    c) }{ }{
    d) }} {{
    I believe that would be C


    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-ss-spacers.jpg

  28. #2028
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    ^yup, thanks.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

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    Straight links?

    Hi All, Anyone else out there have suspension linkage that isn't straight at full shock extension? My "knee" joint, the one that drives the shock, is roughly 165 to 170 degrees unloaded. (The pic was not taken slightly off perpendicular from the bike and the links look straighter than they are.) Anyway, I don't feel like I'm getting much geometry change when climbing and I believe its because the shock length stops the links from straightening fully under force.

    I took off the lower shock mount and there was a washer under each side of the mount. From my crude measurements I think replacing the washers with 5 to 10 mm of spacers would align the linkage when the shock is fully extended. Could I have the wrong shock length? I did order a 29er Outburst but am still running 27.5 rear as not enough of the 29 dropouts were made. Maybe I've got the shock for the 29" bike? I'm probably off my rocker but I'd like to measure them so Brian - what length shocks are used for the bikes? And, once again, any idea when there will be 29" dropouts available?

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-shockline.jpg

  30. #2030
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Hi All, Anyone else out there have suspension linkage that isn't straight at full shock extension? My "knee" joint, the one that drives the shock, is roughly 165 to 170 degrees unloaded. (The pic was not taken slightly off perpendicular from the bike and the links look straighter than they are.) Anyway, I don't feel like I'm getting much geometry change when climbing and I believe its because the shock length stops the links from straightening fully under force.

    I took off the lower shock mount and there was a washer under each side of the mount. From my crude measurements I think replacing the washers with 5 to 10 mm of spacers would align the linkage when the shock is fully extended. Could I have the wrong shock length? I did order a 29er Outburst but am still running 27.5 rear as not enough of the 29 dropouts were made. Maybe I've got the shock for the 29" bike? I'm probably off my rocker but I'd like to measure them so Brian - what length shocks are used for the bikes? And, once again, any idea when there will be 29" dropouts available?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    looks normal to me....

    link looks exactly like yours and all others I've seen

    mine is canted forward same as yours. this is a 27.5 meltdown 170/160 I did not write down the numbers off my shock though, and it's down in the pocket so cannot give you the dvo part number nor dimensions
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-newa3.jpg  

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  31. #2031
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    Mine looks very similar. However I now got the washers on top. Can't remember why, but Im pretty sure they where under the mount at some point. Might be why I also feel I woulda like easyer geo change... So will sort that asap I get the Tantrum special volume reducer (puck/ token?)

    Brian...
    About internal volume reducer...
    You mentioned bottom-out bumpers are a black art.. Foam and stuff that change durometer as temp changes and crasY stiff in cold temp... I remember av friend back in the 80ies who had a fork the was dead stiff in sub zero.. BUT Could it be worth trying a rubber volume reducer, ring shaped out of suitable duro high quality elastomer bumper (rubber or polyurethane?) enough to slow down the piston the last few mm of the stroke. Different size hole/opening in the middle for different ramp up and bumper stiffness tuning..
    Crazy idea? what does DVO think?
    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 4 Days Ago at 11:43 AM.

  32. #2032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Mine looks very similar. However I now got the washers on top. Can't remember why, but Im pretty sure they where under the mount at some point. Might be why I also feel I woulda like easyer geo change... So will sort that asap I get the Tantrum special volume reducer (puck/ token?)

    Brian...
    About internal volume reducer...
    You mentioned bottom-out bumpers are a black art.. Foam and stuff that change durometer as temp changes and crasY stiff in cold temp... I remember av friend back in the 80ies who had a fork the was dead stiff in sub zero.. BUT Could it be worth trying a rubber volume reducer, ring shaped out of suitable duro high quality elastomer bumper (rubber or polyurethane?) enough to slow down the piston the last few mm of the stroke. Different size hole/opening in the middle for different ramp up and bumper stiffness tuning..
    Crazy idea? what does DVO think?
    Hmmm, where to start. First of all the shocks are the same extended length whatever travel or wheel config. Only the stroke changes.

    First caveat....all brands of shock can be slightly different in this regard, from 1-2 mm.

    Their stroke can also be slightly different. As can, therefore, the compressed length. So, there's that to deal with and it can every vary from shock to shock of the same model.

    Of course, every bike company deals with this. I'm pretty picky about this stuff, so I made it possible to adjust the lower shock eye position to a small degree.

    There are 2 interference points to consider at full compression, 3 if you count large tire to frame.

    The first is whether the seatstay bridge will contact the seat tube. The "design" is 6 mm of clearance. Some is good, none is bad.

    The next is the can on the shock (doesn't count for xfusion shock) hitting the weld on the DT. I actually ground the weld a little on some frames.

    Most, almost all frames had washers under the shock bracket, in addition to the standard black washers above.

    In addition, the shock bracket has a slight offset. when removed, you can see an "S" machined into one side. This means Short. If the S if facing forward, the lower end of the shock is slightly more forward.

    When the S if forward, this can help with the DVO can interference, because it changes the tilt slightly, but can also hurt the SS bridge clearance.

    Most DVO frame shave washers and S to the front.

    G, since yours was the first customer bike built..in, if I recall, 2 minutes in the back of the truck on the way to the airport for Eurobike...I seem to remember not needing any washers under your shock mount.

    Which turned out to be more the exception. I think I asked you to check this later after building more frames.

    On the other end, if you put too many washers under the mount, the shock would hit the ST...

    Feel free to play, but please check everything at both ends of the travel, not a lot of wiggle room.

  33. #2033
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    almost recovering from eurobike. Ya, it takes that long. i know many of you are waiting patiently and impatiently for things. Information, parts, stickers and stuff.

    I'm getting back on it. i'm goin as hard as I can

    Strava from eurobike. Not sure exactly what was going on in hall B4, but I seem to recall Cane Creek had a nice bottle of smooth bourbon in their booth. Thanks TR

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-strava-b4.jpg
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-strava-euro.jpg

  34. #2034
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    spacers

    Thanks for the reply Brian. Looking back at the pic I took of the frame when it was just out of the box the links are straighter. Its probably the just the shock getting worn in after a bunch more riding, or my imagination working overtime.

    Anyway, not being one to leave well enough alone I did make a couple 5mm spacers to try under the lower shock mount. Everything fits just fine, no interference at either end of the travel, and I believe it has made a difference. Now when climbing I feel the rear end sit up higher and there is much more grip up front. When not climbing the rear end felt a bit taller and stiffer with the spacers so I let a few psi out of the shock and the cushiness and sag were back. Sort of feels like the bike relaxes after a climb now.

    Maybe this change works for me because I'm a bit bigger (6' 2", 225 lbs) and until now have sagged past that magic point where the pedal forces make it "sit up". If I had pumped up the shock I might have achieved the same thing - but I like a bit plusher setting so have never reached that point. Or it could be all in my head. Either way I like it. Here is a pic of the bike with the spacers installed.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tantrum_with_spacer.jpg

  35. #2035
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    Brian- You recall my thoughts after that shakedown test ride? Is finnlander on to something here?

  36. #2036
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Brian- You recall my thoughts after that shakedown test ride? Is finnlander on to something here?
    Lots of nuances with neg springs. And the fact that the XF and DVO are vastly different.

    Random note: DVO, possibly recognizing that the standard neg spring is too much for some designs, has recommended trying some spacers in the neg chamber. This was not in response to any inquiry or question by me, just a general comment that it can be good on some bikes, to keep the neg spring from drawing the bike too much into it's travel.

    I have tried this here and there. I acknowledge a certain "firming" in some situations, but can't confirm better or not as my testing is more with the positive side and getting the right rising rate at end stroke.

  37. #2037
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Thanks for the reply Brian. Looking back at the pic I took of the frame when it was just out of the box the links are straighter. Its probably the just the shock getting worn in after a bunch more riding, or my imagination working overtime.

    Anyway, not being one to leave well enough alone I did make a couple 5mm spacers to try under the lower shock mount. Everything fits just fine, no interference at either end of the travel, and I believe it has made a difference. Now when climbing I feel the rear end sit up higher and there is much more grip up front. When not climbing the rear end felt a bit taller and stiffer with the spacers so I let a few psi out of the shock and the cushiness and sag were back. Sort of feels like the bike relaxes after a climb now.

    Maybe this change works for me because I'm a bit bigger (6' 2", 225 lbs) and until now have sagged past that magic point where the pedal forces make it "sit up". If I had pumped up the shock I might have achieved the same thing - but I like a bit plusher setting so have never reached that point. Or it could be all in my head. Either way I like it. Here is a pic of the bike with the spacers installed.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tantrum_with_Spacer.jpg 
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    Would you please measure the distance between the rocker/frame pivot bolt and the upper shock/missing link pivot bolt?

    Would all of you?

    Of course, I have a number in mind and it's a little tricky to be accurate, since they don't lie on the same plane. but this is the key number for me. It ties the rest together in my weird matrix vision of this.

    The only thing that bothers me is why yours would have sagged. Have you checked resi psi?? 230.

  38. #2038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Have anyone here had problems with the Magura plastic brake handle clamps splitting? I tighten mine so I barely can be twist the handles by hand in hope they will twist out of position instead of deform or brake the lever when crashing. According to my torque wrench that's just above 2Nm. Magura suggests 4Nm...
    I can see that the screws are not flat under the head. So they sink in to the plastic a bit causing a outwards/splitting force on the plastic around the holes. Since the handlebar will center the clamp I struggle to see why the screws are not flat wich would spread the force evenly and would not cause any splitting force..
    Most of the time i tend to put my bike upside down when doing adjustents. I'm always careful to not put the bike down hard or scrape the clamps on the ground. But I can see the pure weight of the bike could be part of the cause of cracks forming from the edge of the clamp where it makes contact when upside down.
    A washer under the screws just wide enough to cover the clamp around the hole would solve this issue..
    I suspect I ride with the brake levers adjusted to sit more horizontally then most others do.. wich makes the clamp make contact with the ground before the screw.

    Besides that I must say I really like the MT brakes. After going up one disc size both front and rear, they have all the force I need with excellent modulation. And the levers are the most ergonomic I have tried.
    random input. Magura makes pretty neat aluminum cockpit cleaner uppers I just found out about. They sent me one that I used on the left side with the dropper, waiting for a RH version for the shifter. Pretty clean if you lie the angles.

  39. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    random input. Magura makes pretty neat aluminum cockpit cleaner uppers I just found out about. They sent me one that I used on the left side with the dropper, waiting for a RH version for the shifter. Pretty clean if you lie the angles.
    Already got an Magura Shiftmix on the left side. And waiting for the other one wich Magura Norway after some back and forth agreed to send me in exchange for the broken plastic connectors , wich ill be returning to them for examination asap I got both mixers installed.. I have suggested they should add washers to doready the load from the non flat head screws and also protect the edge that makes contact when the bike stand upside down on a flat hard surface..

    I suggested you all to upgraded to Shiftmix, BUT note that... Unless your doing 2or3 finger braking, or lack one joint on your thumb's.. Right Shiftmix fits on left, and other way around. I really wonder how Magura have managed to "mix" this up!?

  40. #2040
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    [QUOTE=TantrumCycles;13747830]Would you please measure the distance between the rocker/frame pivot bolt and the upper shock/missing link pivot bolt?

    Would all of you?

    Of course, I have a number in mind and it's a little tricky to be accurate, since they don't lie on the same plane...



    On my med meltdown I’m getting 1 11/16”. Or 44 mm. Very tricky to get the exact plane but this is what I got after repeated measurements.

  41. #2041
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    45mm

  42. #2042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Already got an Magura Shiftmix on the left side. And waiting for the other one wich Magura Norway after some back and forth agreed to send me in exchange for the broken plastic connectors , wich ill be returning to them for examination asap I got both mixers installed.. I have suggested they should add washers to doready the load from the non flat head screws and also protect the edge that makes contact when the bike stand upside down on a flat hard surface..

    I suggested you all to upgraded to Shiftmix, BUT note that... Unless your doing 2or3 finger braking, or lack one joint on your thumb's.. Right Shiftmix fits on left, and other way around. I really wonder how Magura have managed to "mix" this up!?
    Right, Magura sent me one, which they thought I would use for the shifter. I think it might work for their one finger levers, but I don't like the shape as much, so I just run the levers way inboard, I think like most people.

    So I ended up using it on the left for the dropper, which works perfectly. And from the looks of it, a mirror image should work for the shifter.New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-magura-left.jpg
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-magura-right.jpg

  43. #2043
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    I've been asked about rear der cable routing. this is what I came up with. To me, the key is to keep the housing from sliding in and out of the holes. I am using electrical tape as the grommet

    I make sure there is enough housing sticking out to deal with any der rotation. then wrap tape around to keep the line from getting sucked in. And it will never try to come out more.

    Here's a pic at the limits of der swing, the cable bends nicely in the middle without kinking either end.
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-der-cable-forward.jpg
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-der-cable-rearward.jpg

  44. #2044
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    same thing at BB. Leave enough loop to compensate for full travel and wrap tape to keep it from sliding into the BB shell. Again, it never tries to go further into the CS here, so no tape needed.

    This setup has resulted in reliable action on my demo and test bikes, with 11 and 12 speed setups.
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-der-cable-bb.jpg

  45. #2045
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    Smooth solution Brian!

    Have anyone bothered to silence the cable for the dropper post internally. I tried the same method as for holding the deraliure cable, but the tape just pulled trough the rubber where the cable enters the the DT...

  46. #2046
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    mine measures 45-46mm
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 2 Days Ago at 12:05 PM.
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  47. #2047
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Would you please measure the distance between the rocker/frame pivot bolt and the upper shock/missing link pivot bolt?

    Would all of you?

    Of course, I have a number in mind and it's a little tricky to be accurate, since they don't lie on the same plane. but this is the key number for me. It ties the rest together in my weird matrix vision of this.

    The only thing that bothers me is why yours would have sagged. Have you checked resi psi?? 230.
    Mine measured at 41.5mm, roughly. If I measured from the correct positions that is. And I'll check my shock pressures.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tmpivot_meas.jpg

  48. #2048
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Fortunately you've got 50 seconds before you have to make that turn

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    For just a second, I thought you were spying on me.....until I saw the GPS indicator on the dash

  49. #2049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I did flick that platform lever to full dampening before doing that drop as I also did bottom out further up in some high speed rollers that I never quite succeed to manually clean over. At another 10psi it might do it, but I'm pretty sure I would like to drop the psi back to 200-210psi for regular rideing for more plush slow speed/small bump sensetivity..
    Did you get to talk to the Nitroshox guys at Eurobike? Don't think they had a boot..

    Some interesting reading her I think about speed sensitive "oleo" dampening. Sounds like DT now use the same patent as Nitroshox? At least the is some comments section..
    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/first-lo...-one-fork.html

    I'm sure an additional volume reducer will do it for me. The ultimate I guess for riders that want it all readily available on a flick would be if the CtD lever instead of adjusting the dampening, would operate a valve to the external airsleve chamber, (as on the DT Swiss/Fox Nude shock..) But I guess the future will bring a shocks (Nitro Shock???) that can handle it all without leverflicking, wich Missing Link already got its solid upper hand on!!
    Damn, Fox is finally catching up to the adjustable air volume shock I made in '93......Name:  sv shock small.jpg
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  50. #2050
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Thanks for the reply Brian. Looking back at the pic I took of the frame when it was just out of the box the links are straighter. Its probably the just the shock getting worn in after a bunch more riding, or my imagination working overtime.

    Anyway, not being one to leave well enough alone I did make a couple 5mm spacers to try under the lower shock mount. Everything fits just fine, no interference at either end of the travel, and I believe it has made a difference. Now when climbing I feel the rear end sit up higher and there is much more grip up front. When not climbing the rear end felt a bit taller and stiffer with the spacers so I let a few psi out of the shock and the cushiness and sag were back. Sort of feels like the bike relaxes after a climb now.

    Maybe this change works for me because I'm a bit bigger (6' 2", 225 lbs) and until now have sagged past that magic point where the pedal forces make it "sit up". If I had pumped up the shock I might have achieved the same thing - but I like a bit plusher setting so have never reached that point. Or it could be all in my head. Either way I like it. Here is a pic of the bike with the spacers installed.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tantrum_with_Spacer.jpg 
Views:	37 
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    The change you are feeling is completely valid. I still don't like the idea that the shock somehow sagged....

    I have run as low as 39 mm for that number, which can make it a little "sticky" at the top. I also have a couple of bikes that are in the 47-48 mm range, let's call them a little more optimized for slack.

    I really didn't want to open this can....I only have so much time...

  51. #2051
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    For just a second, I thought you were spying on me.....until I saw the GPS indicator on the dash
    My sleuthing is renowned

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

  52. #2052
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The change you are feeling is completely valid. I still don't like the idea that the shock somehow sagged....

    I have run as low as 39 mm for that number, which can make it a little "sticky" at the top. I also have a couple of bikes that are in the 47-48 mm range, let's call them a little more optimized for slack.

    I really didn't want to open this can....I only have so much time...
    yeah whatever my numbers mean, it equals a climbing machine that can erase roots, so I'm leaving it alone
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  53. #2053
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    I have run as low as 39 mm for that number, which can make it a little "sticky" at the top. I also have a couple of bikes that are in the 47-48 mm range, let's call them a little more optimized for slack.

    I really didn't want to open this can....I only have so much time...
    I'm not worried about the shock - it still works perfectly. And relying on my memory is not a reliable way to engineer anything. What triggered my post was watching shock movement and experiencing front wheel wandering when climbing which led to theorizing that the linkage wasn't straightening enough to provide any lockout and that led to my post. In reality the shock probably hasn't changed, I'm just running it softer.

    My little experiment with the spacers has improved the rear suspension for me. I'm surprised that small of a change was noticeable. You might want to think again about opening that can because I believe this is a selling point of your design. The ability to adjust the lockoutedness (trademark that) by changing one small parameter is a feature you should exploit more.

  54. #2054
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    My small, mixed wheel, XF measures 43mm

  55. #2055
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    Important notice!
    I just found out my Rockshox shock pump are off by at least 20psi.. (needle suddenly sits at 20 when not in use) I have no idea how long this has gone on for, and I have been using another pump a few times that are working correctly. So no wonder I've been confused, and have had serious problems with bottoming out when doing big drops on a few occasions.
    So please ignore any earlier comments from me about lack of bottom out recistanse with max number of positive volume reducer bands!! (At least until I have done that 3meter drop I usually land a bit to slow/short/flat..)

  56. #2056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Important notice!
    I just found out my Rockshox shock pump are off by at least 20psi.. (needle suddenly sits at 20 when not in use) I have no idea how long this has gone on for, and I have been using another pump a few times that are working correctly. So no wonder I've been confused, and have had serious problems with bottoming out when doing big drops on a few occasions.
    So please ignore any earlier comments from me about lack of bottom out recistanse with max number of positive volume reducer bands!! (At least until I have done that 3meter drop I usually land a bit to slow/short/flat..)
    You will still want the internal vol spacer. I want that bottomless pillow feel, even when landing bad.

    when I test, I intentionally land bad or offline. I try to bottom it if I can. Eventually, I get where I am now, pretty happy with it. The I start riding normally. Not slower over jumps, just more in the flow of the ride and not exaggerated. and it's soooo nice.

    If you are doing big jumps and drops, you want the internal spacer. It just gives a spring curve more suitable for jump landings.

    Note, some of the later buyers will have a small version of this already, but for G and many others, they did not yet exist.

    There's a couple guys in Canada going big without it, they need it too.

  57. #2057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Important notice!
    I just found out my Rockshox shock pump are off by at least 20psi..
    I have the luxury of keeping multiple around. They can go bad for any number of reasons, like letting the schrader loose at the wrong time. As a shock guy, I should have a really nice master pump. Might be time to find one.

  58. #2058
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    My little experiment with the spacers has improved the rear suspension for me. I'm surprised that small of a change was noticeable. You might want to think again about opening that can because I believe this is a selling point of your design. The ability to adjust the lockoutedness (trademark that) by changing one small parameter is a feature you should exploit more.
    The offset in the shock bracket (and ability to raise the bracket) are there for that very reason. but given all the other variables, I couldn't give specific setups because every frame/shock combo might be a little different.

    And in the end, I didn't want to overload customers with adjustability. It's hard to introduce a completely new concept and NOT overwhelm the public.

    Witness the fraci that occurred here and other threads.

    There is room for development....................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........

  59. #2059
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    .if only I had listened to vrock and andrextr
    Maybe more to the point, if only I had listened to those guys....NOT GONNA HAPPEN..

    ok, sorry, I was trying to use this as a teaching moment, being an old guy and everything.

    What if I had listened to all of them. Trust me, the detractors vastly outweighed the believers. I'm not just talking about forums. I'm talking about people that believe in me and know what the bike can do.

    because they either think I should have licensed it by now (another multi-story) or give up. Because starting a bike company is stupid. And/or impossible.

    I agree, but I had to make sure I got it out there. And continue to get it out there.

    It's a good thing I didn't listen to them. Sometimes it's a fault, not being a good listener (ask my wife). Sometimes you have to believe in yourself and how you got here. When maybe everyone else either tells you to quit (kindly and not so kindly) or at least shakes their head in wonder.

    It was the craziest, most all encompassing year of my life. So glad I did it.

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