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  1. #101
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    Anxious to hear about first ride impresions by Schoolie and Joe

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Would you please drop me a line on the contact part of our website. Trying to set a little ride up this week. Home
    Done.

  3. #103
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    Don't miss out watching Brians tech talk explaining the physics behind Missing link suspension linkage..
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uh44UM...ature=youtu.be

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  4. #104
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    I'm wonder, would this be an update of the Magic Link, or does the design work differently from the Magic Link?

    I know you designed both, and they look a little similar, but looks don't always equate to equal kinematic properties.
    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

  5. #105
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    Hey I saw the article on p. bike and had a question about your geo chart... you recommended a fork with 35mm offset (or something like that). Do you actually have a source for a mtb fork with an offset that low? I currently think that offsets are too high, but I can't seem to source forks with offsets less than about 42mm easily....

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick2cents View Post
    Hey I saw the article on p. bike and had a question about your geo chart... you recommended a fork with 35mm offset (or something like that). Do you actually have a source for a mtb fork with an offset that low? I currently think that offsets are too high, but I can't seem to source forks with offsets less than about 42mm easily....
    Fox offer (or did anyways) forks with 37mm. I've got a 34 with 37mm offset.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrguy2 View Post
    Fox offer (or did anyways) forks with 37mm. I've got a 34 with 37mm offset.
    I've looked into a 36 with a different offset; are they a special order item?

  8. #108
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  9. #109
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    Jesus is that Leverage curve posted by Vrock even close to accurate. Degressive leverage curve at the start? What is this? 2003?
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxmark View Post
    I'm wonder, would this be an update of the Magic Link, or does the design work differently from the Magic Link?

    I know you designed both, and they look a little similar, but looks don't always equate to equal kinematic properties.
    These are very different. Magic link used chainstay extension to alter leverage ratio and wheel path, this uses chainstay extension to add/remove load on the shock. Also, antisquat behavior and leverage ratios are very different between the implementations between these two designs, so far as i know. I'd expect the magic link suspension the be the better descender. Don't trust this reply.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  11. #111
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    There was som complaints about Magic link could behave unpredictable having a 3D wheel path but that is also why it reacts so good over sharp rocks and roots.
    Riding hard on Magic link bikes for 6 years on both the undampened open coil and the dampened air-coil auxiliary shock I would say the open coil version can sometimes give a short springy kickback when decending fast. But it's nothing I would call unpredictability and they do indeed decend in a great active way.
    On the later, dampened aux shock version its all up to adjustment in how predictable the suspensjon behaves.

    To me it seems like the main improvement with the Missinglink is the 100% "anti sag" compared to the ~35% Magiclink gives when climbing. And that the suspension is still active under pedaling, but still more plush when coasting then any suspension that relay on a pedal-platform shock can provide.

    But this is just from reading what Brian already clearly have been explaining in both text and video.
    I look forward to see how it all works in reality at Eurobike in Germany later this year.

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  12. #112
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    Xpost from hmclay on RM:

    Quote Originally Posted by hmcleay, post: 4143635, member: 28424
    With Kona Magic Link, the axle path has two degrees of freedom (2dof), and therefore the axle can move within a 'window' of travel. It needs (and has) two independent springs/dampers to control this.

    On the Tantrum Meltdown, the axle path is governed by a 6-bar linkage. Therefore, the axle path has one degree of freedom (1dof), and can only move along a single pre-determined axle path. It only needs (and only has) one spring/damper.

    I find a lot of the marketing literature on this bike misleading.
    For example, in the video where he removes the shock bolt, it also completely removes one of the pivots necessary to govern the axle path.
    Then, with that bolt removed, goes on to demonstrate how the "missing link can respond to horizontal forces - forward for pedalling, rearward for bump..." To me it seems like he's trying to imply that the axle path can move horizontally as well as vertically (which it can't, because it's a 1dof system).

    As I always say with complicated suspension systems, regardless of the physical configuration, the Leverage Ratio, Anti-Squat, and Anti-Rise curves will describe the suspension behaviour. There is no 'magic' going on that can't be modelled in Linkage, it's just physics.

    To me, the simplest explanation would be something like: "The axle path is initially sharply rearward, which then becomes more vertical after around 10%-20% travel. This causes the suspension to extend into 'climbing mode' under hard pedalling efforts". No mention of 'magic' required.

    Vrock's explanation on mtbr sums it up nicely:


    The only other thing I would add to this, is that because the AS curve is decreasing so steeply near top out, it means when you are pedalling hard in this zone (e.g. climbing), it would significantly reduce the overall wheel rate.
    And since the wheel rate is ridiculously high near top out, hard pedalling in this zone would bring the overall wheel rate down to more reasonable levels (perhaps even enough to be able to absorb an impact if you encounter one while pedalling hard).
    However, when cornering/pumping/jumping etc, the initially very high wheel rate would surely make it incredibly harsh each time you make contact with the ground.
    Also, if it's intended to be at sag for coasting, and at top-out for pedalling, you're going to be dealing with a ton of chassis movement each time you get on the gas.



    The shitty shock rate on this bike is necessary for it to hold itself up at top-out position when pedalling, which appears to be the intent of the design.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  13. #113
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    Thanks for posting that.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxmark View Post
    I'm wonder, would this be an update of the Magic Link, or does the design work differently from the Magic Link?

    I know you designed both, and they look a little similar, but looks don't always equate to equal kinematic properties.
    Call it an extension of the original concept. Same train of though. Same objectives and how to achieve them. I wanted to use the horizontal forces on the chainstay, through the ground/wheel contact patch, to influence the geometry and spring rate.

    I also wanted to manipulate the interacting leverage ratios to take advantage of these new properties.

    With the Magic Link, the horizontal forces were input to the bottom shock mount, with the aux spring/shock helping bias the motion as well as provide alternate spring rate capability.

    With the Missing Link, I discovered I could input the forces into the top of the shock, where they combine (or subtract) from the vertical bump forces input from the rocker linkage. The manipulation of cooperating leverage ratios is still very much a part of it, in similar and dissimilar ways.

    The advantages of the Missing Link solution

    1) ability to reach full extension while climbing, for max geo change

    2) ability to go to infinite spring stiffness on a smooth climb, negating the need for a lockout

    3) light/stiffer/cheaper/easier to make/setup/understand

    Disadvantage? Loss of the ability to instantly go to a softer spring rate and rearward axle trajectory, which makes the Magic Link unbeatable in terms of pure bump absorption. Which is also why you will see a hybrid Missing/Magic Link DH bike in the Tantrum future.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick2cents View Post
    Hey I saw the article on p. bike and had a question about your geo chart... you recommended a fork with 35mm offset (or something like that). Do you actually have a source for a mtb fork with an offset that low? I currently think that offsets are too high, but I can't seem to source forks with offsets less than about 42mm easily....
    It should be 37 mm for the 160 mm 27.5 fork, which is pretty standard.

    There will be updated geo charts soon, longer reach, shorter CS, boost option

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Xpost from hmclay on RM:
    When I remove the bolt, it is only to give a physical demonstration of how the horizontal forces are fed into the shock mount, thus influencing the geometry and spring rate. When the linkages are connected, there is only as fixed axle path, but the influence of those horizontal forces remain. Removing the bolt was the easiest way to show this.

    I also replace the bolt and show exactly the same effect, with just the shock removed. It is more dramatic, because it does show the assembly in action, as opposed to the individual forces on each link. Hopefully, in combination, people can start to understand what's really going on instead of the overt fixation with AS and LR.

    Vrock's conclusion is just wrong. It is based on incorrect assumptions and poor analysis. In reality, there is no harshness whatsoever while cornering/pumping/jumping. None. Incredibly plush.

    That is really the way the bike rides. With pedaling action that's "better than all of them" (famous independant review). This means in the rough and smooth.

    Be happy about it.
    Last edited by TantrumCycles; 06-29-2016 at 10:18 PM.

  17. #117
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    Very interesting concept. I hope I can test ride one in Europe at some point. Also like your spirit towards innovation and quite striking how motivated some seem to be to criticizing it before riding it.

    About the chainstay length. I reckon 434mm is a very good all-round length, I would reconsider shortening it too much. I think the kind of rider who would buy one of your bikes is more likely looking for a good all-round climbing and riding bike and is not likely to be someone skidding around every tree in the woods and pulling manuals at every possible occasion. Fun as it is I would guess that is a different demographic of rider. Could be wrong though.

    The mentioned 460mm reach and 434mm CS would be the perfect dimensions for me personally.

  18. #118
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    Thanks for generating something actually new that has promise of actually being better. I appreciate clever/novel engineering and not just marketing BS/hype (carbon version of the same bike, a new coat of paint in the color-de-jour, wider wheels/tires, etc.).

    I’m looking forward to buying a Meltdown frame (L) so keep us up-to-date on your Kickstarter (?) production plans. One BIG thing: Please don’t compromise it with a press fit BB—that’s an instant non-starter for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Vrock's conclusion is just wrong. It is based on incorrect assumptions and poor analysis.
    I read this thread and the one on PinkBike, watched your videos, and I think you're handling this right. You're proving nay-sayers wrong and backing it up with copious amounts of evidence. I hope these folks aren't too invested to their opinions and take it personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    That is really the way the bike rides. With pedaling action that's "better than all of them" (famous independant review). This means in the rough and smooth.
    This sounds absolutely fantastic, but I'm going to need to ride the bike before believing. That's something I'm looking forward to!

  19. #119
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    The variety of mtb rear suspension configuration is pretty remarkable. Hat's off to tantrum for something totally new

    Makes me think back to my first motos, in the seventies. Long travel suddenly appeared, as first modders then factories began forward mounting shocks on the swing arm. Then the RM 250 appeared in 76 with a cantilever where the top mounts came way down and the bottom mounts stayed forward.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-s1200_cagiva_cases_001_large.jpg

    Meanwhile Yammi showed the first mono shock:
    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-1975yz250-copy.jpg

    The Suzuki was better in use, according to most.

    Now besides my DW link Mojo SL I have a 07 KTM 250SX which uses one shock but no linkage, and a GG trials 300 which has the more common linkage system you see in practically all motocross bikes. KTM has gone to the same sort of linkage. They all are slightly different but the overall design is similar, compared all the varied mtb systems.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-2012-crf450-2.jpg

    What's nice about the older KTM PDS is it's so simple, much less maintenance.

    But I suppose the motos are much simpler in power delivery: a chain pulls the sprocket from the countershaft, end of story. None of the human issues LOL

    But I will say, mtb suspension is a joke compared to moto suspension on backcountry ST. At least in my experience. Mtb forks are especially horrible on the all mtn models. Maybe it's because with so much power you can afford softness


    Dangerous Siren by unoh7, on Flickr

    These forks don't have alot of travel but they are fantastic. Maybe the DH bikes are like this, but every all mtn bike I try is pretty silly by comparison in the front.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    These forks don't have alot of travel but they are fantastic. Maybe the DH bikes are like this, but every all mtn bike I try is pretty silly by comparison in the front.
    I'm not saying it's the whole picture, but of course the sprung weight is higher on a motorbike, aiding suspension performance.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I'm not saying it's the whole picture, but of course the sprung weight is higher on a motorbike, aiding suspension performance.
    The bike is so much heavier that the range of tuning can be much narrower, allowing for the suspension tuners to get much closer to optimal, vs. having to design for a system that will be somewhere between 150-250lbs, on a mountain bike, an incredibly wide range that will never offer optimal suspension performance with a "one size fits all" tune. Go aftermarket for mtb suspension tuning (Avalanche, Push). There's your "moto" amazing feel, where it gets softer/smoother the harder you push it in rough terrain, rather than more jackhammer the faster you go like OEM.

    I also agree though to a big extent, that mountain bike suspension manufacturers have been using dipsh*t compression and rebound circuits that are a joke. The aftermarket tuners I mentioned will tune both XC and DH stuff, but the common theme is they won't have any of the stupid gimmicks in there, like propedal, etc. They'll gut the shocks and use proper low speed and high speed circuits, where you can have a lot of low speed compression stability which does NOT cause the high speed to act choppy and harsh. Somewhere Fox and all the mtb manufacturers agreed that 1) XC riders don't need real damping and 2) "descend" modes should have no low speed compression damping (stability). This has been extremely annoying, as well as the fact that you can't (or couldn't) get damping circuits such as what came in the CCDB, Fox RC4 and others, in air-shocks for normal riding. No, you got overly harsh ill performing stuff like RP3s without true shim stack valves and they bucked you over every impact. It's annoying because this technology (the good stuff) has existed for years, it's not a secret, Avalanche has been using it since 1998 or something, but it took many years before mountain bike manufacturers stopped putting POS joke-of-a-dampers even in their DH forks. In 2012, Marzocchi virtually copied what Avalanche had been doing. Only very recently have we been able to get stuff like the new Fox air X2, CCDB air, and a couple others, and even still they suffer from what I mentioned in the first paragraph.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Very interesting concept. I hope I can test ride one in Europe at some point. Also like your spirit towards innovation and quite striking how motivated some seem to be to criticizing it before riding it.

    About the chainstay length. I reckon 434mm is a very good all-round length, I would reconsider shortening it too much. I think the kind of rider who would buy one of your bikes is more likely looking for a good all-round climbing and riding bike and is not likely to be someone skidding around every tree in the woods and pulling manuals at every possible occasion. Fun as it is I would guess that is a different demographic of rider. Could be wrong though.

    The mentioned 460mm reach and 434mm CS would be the perfect dimensions for me personally.
    Will you be attending Eurobike? We will not have our own booth, but I will have bikes to demo.

    The criticism, I think, is standard resistance to change amplified by internet anonominity. You would like to think calmer discussions could ensue, but.....the world, exhibit A

    I hear you on CS length. In reality, I could just change the geo chart and leave the bike alone and 90% would never complain. It is a lot of "trend".

    The goal of the bikes is really to be super all around trail bike. I want it to be great at everything. Maybe not possible, but we can keep working on it. The good news about CS length on this bike, is that it is fairly easy to manipulate with the bolt on dropouts. I will test down to 430 cS or so.

    How tall are you?

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    Thanks for generating something actually new that has promise of actually being better. I appreciate clever/novel engineering and not just marketing BS/hype (carbon version of the same bike, a new coat of paint in the color-de-jour, wider wheels/tires, etc.).

    I’m looking forward to buying a Meltdown frame (L) so keep us up-to-date on your Kickstarter (?) production plans. One BIG thing: Please don’t compromise it with a press fit BB—that’s an instant non-starter for me.



    I read this thread and the one on PinkBike, watched your videos, and I think you're handling this right. You're proving nay-sayers wrong and backing it up with copious amounts of evidence. I hope these folks aren't too invested to their opinions and take it personally.



    This sounds absolutely fantastic, but I'm going to need to ride the bike before believing. That's something I'm looking forward to!
    Hi Mark, Thanks for the good words. The Kickstarter will start around mid Aug, so it will overlap both Eurobike and Interbike. There will be bikes to ride at both events.

    BB. At the moment, it is press fit. Why? After doing a lot of research, I have discovered, what I think is the main problem with PF BB. Plastic bearing cups. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Most PF BB's have a plastic cup to interface between the bearing itself and the BB shell. Don't know who came up with that BS. Right now, I'm using a Wheels MFG, aluminum cup BB. It's been great.

    Why bother with PF? In theory, it is better. Bigger, wider shell=stronger frame. bearings not hanging out past the BB=better. BTW, those bearings are pressed in also, they're just pressed into a threaded aluminum cup.

    This might change, but the first run is PF. Aside from Wheels MFG, there are some other quality options, like Praxxis that has a shell that threads together.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    The variety of mtb rear suspension configuration is pretty remarkable. Hat's off to tantrum for something totally new

    Makes me think back to my first motos, in the seventies. Long travel suddenly appeared, as first modders then factories began forward mounting shocks on the swing arm. Then the RM 250 appeared in 76 with a cantilever where the top mounts came way down and the bottom mounts stayed forward.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	s1200_Cagiva_cases_001_Large.jpg 
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    Meanwhile Yammi showed the first mono shock:
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1080606

    The Suzuki was better in use, according to most.

    Now besides my DW link Mojo SL I have a 07 KTM 250SX which uses one shock but no linkage, and a GG trials 300 which has the more common linkage system you see in practically all motocross bikes. KTM has gone to the same sort of linkage. They all are slightly different but the overall design is similar, compared all the varied mtb systems.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2012-crf450-2.jpg 
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ID:	1080607

    What's nice about the older KTM PDS is it's so simple, much less maintenance.

    But I suppose the motos are much simpler in power delivery: a chain pulls the sprocket from the countershaft, end of story. None of the human issues LOL

    But I will say, mtb suspension is a joke compared to moto suspension on backcountry ST. At least in my experience. Mtb forks are especially horrible on the all mtn models. Maybe it's because with so much power you can afford softness


    Dangerous Siren by unoh7, on Flickr

    These forks don't have alot of travel but they are fantastic. Maybe the DH bikes are like this, but every all mtn bike I try is pretty silly by comparison in the front.
    Thanks Uhoh.

    I lived thru that entire moto era. I started welding shock mounts further up the swingarm in the early 70's. We didn't know what we were doing, blew shocks up and screwed up the geo, but when it worked, it WORKED. And my '76 RM 125 was the shiite.

    Onward thru Fox air shox, tuneable with Holley carb main jets (everyone asking, what's a carb, what's a main jet) on my Maico, then test riding for WP shocks when Maico went single shock. I still have that bike, '83 Maico 250 spider, bad motor scooter, 54 HP, 13.7 inches of rear travel can't touch the ground. Air cooled, drum brakes. Ya.

    One of my early partners (for the F1 and Citroen shock program), invented the Suzuki full floater. So, I've seen a lot come and go. A lot of thought went into this and yes, moto is somewhat easier by comparison, not just for the sprung/unsprung weight ratio, but for the fact that the human powered bike can benefit from pedaling optimization, which is pretty much in direct conflict with bump absorption.

    Check out my website at Home for a little pictorial moto history.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Check out my website at Home for a little pictorial moto history.
    What an awesome read that is!

  26. #126
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    here is an interesting rear suspension, also:

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-hnf-heisenberg-xf1.jpg


    that's a BMW design on the Heisenberg XF1

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    What an awesome read that is!
    thank you kind sir. It was awesome to experience.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    here is an interesting rear suspension, also:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	HNF-HEISENBERG-XF1.jpg 
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ID:	1081014


    that's a BMW design on the Heisenberg XF1
    interesting, I can't tell what's going on. I'm thinking on the e-bike, they're not too concerned with any pedaling action. And why didn't they do the front?

  29. #129
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    Hey everyone, we're going to have a graphic design contest for 2017 graphics. Grand Prize, 100% off a 2017 Tantrum frame.

    I'l post details here tomorrow and on the website

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    One of my early partners (for the F1 and Citroen shock program), invented the Suzuki full floater.
    Don's book was a good read and I'm running Intiminators and Vibranators on 2 bikes

    From looking at your site, your book would be a good read too

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Don's book was a good read and I'm running Intiminators and Vibranators on 2 bikes

    From looking at your site, your book would be a good read too
    Do you have links to the books?

    I'm driving an Citroën C5 and enjoy the great suspension and cornering grip.

    I'm dreaming of getting an Xantia Activa https://youtu.be/09-C33SrJi8
    Old and dull looking. But with its advanced hydropneumatic suspension, still never out cornered by any other standard production car! 😊

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Do you have links to the books?
    Don Richardson's is on Amazon and when Brian writes his, I'll buy it too

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Don's book was a good read and I'm running Intiminators and Vibranators on 2 bikes

    From looking at your site, your book would be a good read too
    I had no idea Don had a book. last talked to him maybe 15 years ago at interbike and lost touch. Reading the book will be fun, but it also has my stomach roiling remembering some of the "good times". Ya, I have stories. The website was sort of my beginning of organizing my professional life in preparation.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Do you have links to the books?

    I'm driving an Citroën C5 and enjoy the great suspension and cornering grip.

    I'm dreaming of getting an Xantia Activa https://youtu.be/09-C33SrJi8
    Old and dull looking. But with its advanced hydropneumatic suspension, still never out cornered by any other standard production car! 😊
    We didn't do any work on the production cars, just the Rally/Raid, Dakar type cars.

  35. #135
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    The graphic design contest is ON. Grand Prize up to 100% off a 2017 Tantrum frame. Lower level awards also available. Check out the rules at Home

  36. #136
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    It would be interesting to see how this compares quantitatively with a rearward-axle-path setup like the Canfield Jedi. Chain tension stiffens the rear / raises the ride height on that frame too. The axle path is roughly similar to what you'd get from a single-pivot setup with the pivot halfway up the seat post.

    And I <3 my Jedi.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    It would be interesting to see how this compares quantitatively with a rearward-axle-path setup like the Canfield Jedi. Chain tension stiffens the rear / raises the ride height on that frame too. The axle path is roughly similar to what you'd get from a single-pivot setup with the pivot halfway up the seat post.

    And I <3 my Jedi.
    In theory, your Jedi should have a bit more pedal kickback and maybe a bit harsher pedaling in the bumps. How do you feel it performs in those 2 areas?

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Check out my website at Home for a little pictorial moto history.
    Deserves another bump. This is an awesome recount and I can't wait to hear more.

  39. #139
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    I will admit that seeing your professional background has made me pay much more attention to these bikes then I would otherwise. Going to keep my eyes open for a chance to throw a leg over one.

    As far as the graphic design - I am out - zero talent here. I have always had a soft spot for the JPS lotus black/gold color scheme from the late 70s/early 80s.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Deserves another bump. This is an awesome recount and I can't wait to hear more.
    Kind, kind, kind sir. Thank you so much. I AM lucky. I did make my own luck by stupid refusal to listen to naysayers. Ok, I caved in college when they told me pick baseball or engineering, but I never looked back.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I will admit that seeing your professional background has made me pay much more attention to these bikes then I would otherwise. Going to keep my eyes open for a chance to throw a leg over one.

    As far as the graphic design - I am out - zero talent here. I have always had a soft spot for the JPS lotus black/gold color scheme from the late 70s/early 80s.
    Sir 0067. I appreciate the ever so slight credibility my career might warrant.

    At that, I'm very much a "what have you done for me lately" kinda guy. My past is relavant, it's how I got here. But if my bike doesn't work, who cares. I'm looking forward to everyone getting a chance to try it.

    JPS. Black gold, hell yeah. Jochin Rindht. The only driver to be crowned world champ posthumously. I saw him race it at Watkins Glen. Dreaming I might some day work in F1. Later, the UOP shadows appeared in F1, Can -AM and F5000. They had dodge 318 and 340 engines. I was going thru a run of black dodge chargers at the time, My Shadows. Much later, I worked with/for Trevor Harris, the singularly most successful and prolific race car designer ever. Google it. Trevor was the engineer for the Shadow F1 team and designed some early, radical Shadow can am cars in the late 60's.

    black/gold is classic. Not against that. Just sayin.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    In theory, your Jedi should have a bit more pedal kickback and maybe a bit harsher pedaling in the bumps. How do you feel it performs in those 2 areas?
    I don't notice either of those things, but it's my first and only DH bike so I haven't got much to compare it against. At some point I'll have to swap bikes with a friend and see if I notice any difference.

    I was surprised at how well it climbs though, after everything I read about how climbing on DH bikes is supposed to be terrible. Until recently it had an 11-36 cassette, and I used to ride it everywhere.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    I don't notice either of those things, but it's my first and only DH bike so I haven't got much to compare it against. At some point I'll have to swap bikes with a friend and see if I notice any difference.

    I was surprised at how well it climbs though, after everything I read about how climbing on DH bikes is supposed to be terrible. Until recently it had an 11-36 cassette, and I used to ride it everywhere.
    Your first point is the best one. All bikes are fun. Some do some things better than others.

    keep inmind, the meltdown is not a DH bike. At least not a dH race bike. More like Enduro.

  44. #144
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    Doesn't the idler pretty much control all the chain/pedal input effects on the Jedi?

    On a bike with super high kickback, notably Evil's The Following, some consider it to be speed boosting. I figure if the frame's trying to make the cranks backpedal 20 degrees on each significant hit, and you are trying to hold your pedals steady, it's akin to cranking forward 20 degrees, hence a possible reason for the speed boosting. You feel the bumps in the form of kickback, and it can interrupt smooth pedaling, but if you're going downhill and just plowing...
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Doesn't the idler pretty much control all the chain/pedal input effects on the Jedi?

    On a bike with super high kickback, notably Evil's The Following, some consider it to be speed boosting. I figure if the frame's trying to make the cranks backpedal 20 degrees on each significant hit, and you are trying to hold your pedals steady, it's akin to cranking forward 20 degrees, hence a possible reason for the speed boosting. You feel the bumps in the form of kickback, and it can interrupt smooth pedaling, but if you're going downhill and just plowing...
    Oops, didn't even look at the bike before I spoke. The idler pulley will certainly help a lot. I was just going by his description of pivot location.

    You could sorta call that speed boosting, but when it's bad, it feels like your leg went weak. The pushback can feel like it's pushing backward.

    The best description I can give is if you go to spike a volleyball at the net and somebody else hand reaches the ball at the same time from the other side. All of a sudden, you're weak and can't follow thru with your stroke.

  46. #146
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    Yea, definitely not for an XC FS bike. An FS bike for XC gains time through pedaling where an HT can't, usually through the rough, also saving the rider's energy. If high kickback is making the rider feel reluctant to continue spinning through the rough, such as that feeling that you'd risk great danger by pedaling through the rough (maybe due to some instability and foot security issues), that pretty much makes the bike more DH oriented, in sort of a sledding style, rather than a high tempo racing way.

    On that note, I see Norco has a similar belief. Their bigger DH oriented bikes have a lot more AS/kickback, while their shorter travel bikes have less. In most of their promo videos, the riders are standing (and pedaling, if it's featuring a shorter travel bike) a majority of the time. They seem to be rather innovative on the geo side too, having proportional sizing. Their latest bike seems to have gone far longer than much bigger names, showing boldness. Worth noting that their pro rider, Blenki, has been testing his enduro and DH bike with an idler to reduce pedal feedback, and he's known to be very fit and likes to really spin those cranks. Hardly a promo video that shows the Evil being pedaled...
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Yea, definitely not for an XC FS bike. An FS bike for XC gains time through pedaling where an HT can't, usually through the rough, also saving the rider's energy. If high kickback is making the rider feel reluctant to continue spinning through the rough, such as that feeling that you'd risk great danger by pedaling through the rough (maybe due to some instability and foot security issues), that pretty much makes the bike more DH oriented, in sort of a sledding style, rather than a high tempo racing way.

    On that note, I see Norco has a similar belief. Their bigger DH oriented bikes have a lot more AS/kickback, while their shorter travel bikes have less. In most of their promo videos, the riders are standing (and pedaling, if it's featuring a shorter travel bike) a majority of the time.
    I had an old c'dale super v. Super crazy kickback. After awhile, I just unconsciously adjusted and wouldn't put as much pressure on the pedals. Would I lose time or make up for it on the downside? Who knows. But it's much nicer being able to pedal thru stuff.

    On a DH bike, the upside of kickback is usually a more rearward axle path to help with square edge stuff. a fair trade off

  48. #148
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    Still have a Super V3000.
    I treated it as a rigid with a bit of give in the back end.
    Pedaling through bumps was... interesting... the first part of the pedal stroke would jack the suspension up, and only then would it go forward...

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Still have a Super V3000.
    I treated it as a rigid with a bit of give in the back end.
    Pedaling through bumps was... interesting... the first part of the pedal stroke would jack the suspension up, and only then would it go forward...
    Old timer.

    I still have 2. One was my first long travel DH race bike, with at least an inch of headshok travel and probably a 73 degree HT angle.

  50. #150
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    anyone here ride at Vietnam?

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    We didn't do any work on the production cars, just the Rally/Raid, Dakar type cars.
    I just notice they are going for a totally different but still far from traditional approach on production cars next year http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...nvent’-comfort
    Maybe something you have contributer to in som way. 😉

    Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk

  52. #152
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    Interesting link.

    We did use a hydraulic bottoming cushion when I was designing rallye shocks for them, but it was so long ago ('92), I doubt anyone from that era is still at the company.

    We talked to a few OE's about it at the time, but the projected cost, at less than $1 a shock, was deemed too much. The beancounters sat me down and said " 500,000 vehicles times 4 shocks= $2 Million." That's what we were going to cost the company.

    One reason I liked racing better. They didn't count beans as much as long as you made the car faster.

  53. #153
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    hello everyone, This is Brian, from Tantrum Cycles. I will be in the Boston area within 2 weeks time.

    I will have a 160 mm 27.5 Meltdown and a 125 x 29 Outburst with me, both M frames.

    I would like to set some appointments with a few people for a demo ride, maybe at Russell Mill.

    Pleased drop me a line on our website if interested.

    In case you missed RC's take on the bike:

    “Does the impossible; pedals like a hardtail and delivers a plush ride over the bumps-without levers or electronics”.

    ”The Missing Link delivers the goods. Compared to the current crop of carbon superbikes, the Tantrum Meltdown performs well on the downs-essential for any 160-millimeter trail bike-and its pedaling action is better than all of them”.

    First Ride: Tantrum Cycles Missing Link Suspension - Pinkbike

    thanks.

    cheers,

    Brian

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    hello everyone, This is Brian, from Tantrum Cycles. I will be in the Boston area within 2 weeks time.

    I will have a 160 mm 27.5 Meltdown and a 125 x 29 Outburst with me, both M frames.

    I would like to set some appointments with a few people for a demo ride, maybe at Russell Mill.

    Pleased drop me a line on our website if interested.

    In case you missed RC's take on the bike:

    “Does the impossible; pedals like a hardtail and delivers a plush ride over the bumps-without levers or electronics”.

    ”The Missing Link delivers the goods. Compared to the current crop of carbon superbikes, the Tantrum Meltdown performs well on the downs-essential for any 160-millimeter trail bike-and its pedaling action is better than all of them”.

    First Ride: Tantrum Cycles Missing Link Suspension - Pinkbike

    thanks.

    cheers,

    Brian
    Really interested to demo an Outburst...any plans to visit DFW area?

    Also any plans for a 29F/27.5R specific frame in the not too distant future?

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgill32 View Post
    Really interested to demo an Outburst...any plans to visit DFW area?

    Also any plans for a 29F/27.5R specific frame in the not too distant future?
    We'll have a more clear picture of demo dates soon.

    As for the mix wheel bike, I did build one frame up as the Downburst, with a 150 mm 29er fr and a 165 mm 27.5 rear. Pretty fun bike. The plan is to offer a few on Kickstarter (in a week or so) and gauge interest for future production.

  56. #156
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    I just finished this. It shows some of the unique properties of the Missing Link Suspension

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjlyimeL7yM

  57. #157
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    Great job with the video, Brian, it really shows how your design works.

    chaz
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  58. #158
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    So how much and when can I buy?

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat View Post
    So how much and when can I buy?
    MSRP for frame and shock will be around US$2600. But there will be a kickstarter launch in a week or so, with significant discounts on frames and complete bikes. I'll announce it here in a few days.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I just finished this. It shows some of the unique properties of the Missing Link Suspension

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjlyimeL7yM
    This is your best video yet. The one suggestion I would make is that you shoot the on-trail demos in high speed. It looks like you are just slowing down 30 fps footage. Any recent go-pro or cell phone should be able to shoot that at high speed and give you a much better looking end result.

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    The one suggestion I would make is that you shoot the on-trail demos in high speed.
    "Frame rate" is what you're after.

  62. #162
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    Also, should show back to backs of ML and a leading other brand suspension over the same rock or root.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat View Post
    Also, should show back to backs of ML and a leading other brand suspension over the same rock or root.
    I doubt the differences in sag adjustment and plushness would show good on even a good b to b video. I think that have to be experienced in real life, and i hope to be able to do that in an near future. I'm getting more and more frustrated in compromising shock settings and with having to adjust in between climbs and descends to get the best out of what I got now.
    Im really looking forward to leave remote lockouts, CTD and platform adjustments to be remembered in the history books.. :-)

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    This is your best video yet. The one suggestion I would make is that you shoot the on-trail demos in high speed. It looks like you are just slowing down 30 fps footage. Any recent go-pro or cell phone should be able to shoot that at high speed and give you a much better looking end result.
    Thanks, that was 60fps on my old gopro. maybe I'm just riding too damn fast. And/or a crappy video producer. Still learning.

  65. #165
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    No, you problem is light, or the lack of it in this case.
    Besides frame rate, you need the shutter speed to match the frame rate, and to accomplish that you need light, lots of it .

    Any way, good demonstration on the suspension work. It clearly show how it work and the strong points of it

  66. #166
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    Will 27.5 x 2.8 or 27.5 x 3.0 tires fit in the rear triangle of the Outburst?

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    No, you problem is light, or the lack of it in this case.
    Besides frame rate, you need the shutter speed to match the frame rate, and to accomplish that you need light, lots of it .

    Any way, good demonstration on the suspension work. It clearly show how it work and the strong points of it
    thanks Aglo. next, I'm working out how to do split screen, which should be pretty cool.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridge Rider View Post
    Will 27.5 x 2.8 or 27.5 x 3.0 tires fit in the rear triangle of the Outburst?
    Yes, Either bike should fit a 27.5 x 3.25 in the rear.

  69. #169
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    Just watched the video... The word "innovative" has been so abused it barely registers to me anymore, but this really earned it.

    Kudos.

  70. #170
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    I am still kicking myself for missing out on one of the Magic Link Konas. Maybe this is my chance to remedy that screw up.

  71. #171
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    ok so when can we buy one ? despite my earlier complaint about things, I may want to buy one to beat on

  72. #172
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    Any update on the Kickstarter campaign?

    I'm bummed to have missed you on your Boston area visit. Hopefully you found some good riding.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Just watched the video... The word "innovative" has been so abused it barely registers to me anymore, but this really earned it.

    Kudos.

    thank you kind sir.

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I am still kicking myself for missing out on one of the Magic Link Konas. Maybe this is my chance to remedy that screw up.
    The Magic Link was good. Of course, I'm biased, but properly setup.......

    But, the Missing Link is better. Lighter, stiffer, better climbing, easy to setup. Hopefully easier on the eye.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ok so when can we buy one ? despite my earlier complaint about things, I may want to buy one to beat on
    Soon

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus View Post
    Any update on the Kickstarter campaign?

    I'm bummed to have missed you on your Boston area visit. Hopefully you found some good riding.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Working hard to launch kickstarter this week, in advance of Interbike. I'll announce it here.

    I will have bikes at Dirt Demo

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The Magic Link was good. Of course, I'm biased, but properly setup.......

    But, the Missing Link is better. Lighter, stiffer, better climbing, easy to setup. Hopefully easier on the eye.
    A buddy of mine (a former Cdn Olympic bobsledder) still hammers a 2012 Magic Link Abracadabra. He has beaten that bike bad, but refuses to buy a new one because he loves it so much (and it's one of the few bikes he has not destroyed). But yeah - that is one ghastly looking shock area, and a beast (for a lot of people) to set up properly. But like you said, once properly set up...

    I, and likely a few friends of mine, will be looking very closely at your offerings. The problem is that the CDN $ is still in the toilet. CDN bikes (Konas and Norcos especially) have MUCH more headroom in my neck of the woods on pricing than any non-CDN products. But like I said, I wish I would have sprung for a Kona Magic Link back in the day, so I may just have to suck it up and bite the bullet on one of these, despite the swift and deadly hit on my wallet.

  78. #178
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    I'm intrigued to hear how other riders think about the influence of alterations in BB height and geometry.

    On my local favourite trails there is several very steep climbs that I mostly make as long as I use the lockout - Removing all of the 30% sag.
    The noticeable higher BB/pedal to ground clerence in combination with the geometry steepeneing the HT angle and also making it easier to balance as much weight on the rear for traction and in the same time making the front wheel as light as possible for least rolling resistance over obstacles.

    I can see that I might appear overly obsessed with this.
    But it makes me enjoy going up almost as much as decending. Making as much of my ridingtime as enjoyable as possible.

    The downside with manually operate lockouts or pro-pedal levers, is that the rider have to constantly make desicions when to lock and un-lock, while also doing the same desicions about the seat post height adjustments, gearing and braking.
    The pure amount of operations can many times be the limiting factor that makes me fail when it gets technical on the limit of my abilities.

    Also many times an on-off lock out shock is a limiting compromise when suspension can help traction. But for me the pro - pedal RP3 shock was even more compromising.




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    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 09-15-2016 at 11:19 PM.

  79. #179
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    if you are gonna make offers for complete bikes then PLEASE do not lock us
    into 1x....2x should be an option please. some of us ride 8 miles of road to hit trails, kick out 20 trail miles, then ride 8 miles road back

    then again maybe front der might not work on your frame

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    A buddy of mine (a former Cdn Olympic bobsledder) still hammers a 2012 Magic Link Abracadabra. He has beaten that bike bad, but refuses to buy a new one because he loves it so much (and it's one of the few bikes he has not destroyed). But yeah - that is one ghastly looking shock area, and a beast (for a lot of people) to set up properly. But like you said, once properly set up...

    I, and likely a few friends of mine, will be looking very closely at your offerings. The problem is that the CDN $ is still in the toilet. CDN bikes (Konas and Norcos especially) have MUCH more headroom in my neck of the woods on pricing than any non-CDN products. But like I said, I wish I would have sprung for a Kona Magic Link back in the day, so I may just have to suck it up and bite the bullet on one of these, despite the swift and deadly hit on my wallet.
    I would still be riding my Cadabra if I didn't have the Meltdown. I think there are a lot of Magic Link holdouts. I think I will start an owners club to keep them all running.

    You didn't have to say ghastly....ok, for G1......

    I get plenty of crap for putting the shock loads at right angles to the DT on this design, but sometimes, hings have to go where the have to go. And we design around it.

    The KS is launching really soon....good discounts .....

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I'm intrigued to hear how other riders think about the influence of alterations in BB height and geometry.

    On my local favourite trails there is several very steep climbs that I mostly make as long as I use the lockout - Removing all of the 30% sag.
    The noticeable higher BB/pedal to ground clerence in combination with the geometry steepeneing the HT angle and also making it easier to balance as much weight on the rear for traction and in the same time making the front wheel as light as possible for least rolling resistance over obstacles.

    I can see that I might appear overly obsessed with this.
    But it makes me enjoy going up almost as much as decending. Making as much of my ridingtime as enjoyable as possible.

    The downside is that I have to constantly make desicions when to manually operate the lockout remote while also doing the same desicions and the seat post height adjustments, gearing and also braking.
    The pure amount of operations can many times be the limiting factor that makes me fail when it gets technical on the limit of my abilities.

    Also many times an on-off lock out shock is a limiting compromise when suspension can help traction. But for me the pro - pedal RP3 shock was even more compromising.




    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
    I think the fun thing about the geometry change is that there is no real indication that it's happening or has happened. It just is. And it's sooo much better.

    You don't really notice, but a couple weeks ago, I got to back-to-back with a competitive design. When I rode it, it felt like pedaling in mud in comparison. It was notably harder just to climb and markedly slower. Where the Meltdown just sprinted up the hill like an XC bike.

    It does make the climbing more fun. It was not fun on the other bike (in comparison), more like a chore.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    if you are gonna make offers for complete bikes then PLEASE do not lock us
    into 1x....2x should be an option please. some of us ride 8 miles of road to hit trails, kick out 20 trail miles, then ride 8 miles road back

    then again maybe front der might not work on your frame
    It is 2x compatible, but my market research says give it up. And that real estate down there is too valuable for linkage pivots, etc. So for now it will be, but no build kits like that. Bottom line is, I have to limit the options on build kits to be able to offer them at all. Low quantities.....

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I would still be riding my Cadabra if I didn't have the Meltdown. I think there are a lot of Magic Link holdouts. I think I will start an owners club to keep them all running.

    The KS is launching really soon....good discounts .....
    I almost bought a Kona magic-link bike. I went back to look at it several times, but the porkiness was a stoke killer. Glad to see you are coming out with an updated version. Good to hear RC liked it. It would be great to get more reviews from folks like that as most of us will not get a demo so purchasing is a big leap of faith.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I think the fun thing about the geometry change is that there is no real indication that it's happening or has happened. It just is. And it's sooo much better.

    You don't really notice, but a couple weeks ago, I got to back-to-back with a competitive design. When I rode it, it felt like pedaling in mud in comparison. It was notably harder just to climb and markedly slower. Where the Meltdown just sprinted up the hill like an XC bike.

    It does make the climbing more fun. It was not fun on the other bike (in comparison), more like a chore.
    Efficiency is fun for sure.
    The only fun thing about a lock-out/up remote is that it's kind of a "side by side" test that shows how inefficient a specific geometry at ~25-30% sag, is for steep climbing compared to the locked position at 0% sag.
    And the other way around it shows how important suspension can be to maintain traction when a locked out or an hardtail bike will bounce around and lose traction on obstacles.

    As far as I know there is no other suspension patent that can adapt to the terrain like this. Completely automatic and seamless.



    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 09-17-2016 at 12:18 AM.

  85. #185
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    Love, love, love my Cadabra...

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Yes, Either bike should fit a 27.5 x 3.25 in the rear.
    Does that mean Boost hub standard or possibly even "Super boost" 157?

    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Yes, Either bike should fit a 27.5 x 3.25 in the rear.
    Without hitting the seat tube at full compression?

  88. #188
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    New inovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts. ..

    Edit... Censoring my wise-ass mouth

  89. #189
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    Is there any chansen you could try to convince X-Fusion to make the Revel USD fork available as an (hopfully affordable) option on your pre-order bikes? 😇

    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 09-24-2016 at 10:20 AM.

  90. #190
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    Nice design and congrats! Im sure you spent many a hour perfecting this and your still making adjustments. Questions, it would seem to me that maybe the shock is "worked" more then on the standard suspension bikes out there. Any ideas on shock maintenance and life with this new design?
    Also, Will there be aluminum frames as well. Or just carbon frames?
    Thanks

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65bug View Post
    Nice design and congrats! Im sure you spent many a hour perfecting this and your still making adjustments. Questions, it would seem to me that maybe the shock is "worked" more then on the standard suspension bikes out there. Any ideas on shock maintenance and life with this new design?
    Also, Will there be aluminum frames as well. Or just carbon frames?
    Thanks
    I cannot answer you about the shock question but right now their bikes are aluminum.

  92. #192
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    When I'm trying to work out of the shock somehow will get "worked " harder or more then in an conventional suspension I get to the conclusion that the load (from weight and impacts) must be the same. But the shock will actually be to varying degree be unloaded when climbing depending on how smooth the surface is. I doubt that can make any measurable difference in maintenance intervals and wear.
    So much more important is that all the pivots and shock mounts have good seals.
    Pivot less seat-stays, if that's possible with 162mm travel. And a flexible rubber shockmount in the frame would be nice. But it only takes a few minutes to renew them, so it's probably not worth it costeffectively at least in the first production.
    I fear the hardest obstacle is to explained that for potential buyers so the don't get scared away by the "Uuuuuuh, that's to many bearings, soooo it must be crap..." argument.

    Sitting here and truing another wheel also makes me clinch on to the hope for Superboost rear hub standard.
    Even with boost the rear wheel is the weakest link on bikes that are ridden properly hard!

    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Efficiency is fun for sure.
    The only fun thing about a lock-out/up remote is that it's kind of a "side by side" test that shows how inefficient a specific geometry at ~25-30% sag, is for steep climbing compared to the locked position at 0% sag.
    And the other way around it shows how important suspension can be to maintain traction when a locked out or an hardtail bike will bounce around and lose traction on obstacles.

    As far as I know there is no other suspension patent that can adapt to the terrain like this. Completely automatic and seamless.



    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
    Axa, that is the really cool thing. If you can imagine the efficiency of the steeper geometry at 0% sag without any loss of traction.......

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrguy2 View Post
    Love, love, love my Cadabra...
    thank you thank you thank you. The Meltdown is the GrandSon of Cadabra, skipped a whole gen and takes it to another level. As a fellow cadabra lover, I know you'll love the Meltdown.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Does that mean Boost hub standard or possibly even "Super boost" 157?

    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
    It does mean 148 mm boost rear dropouts as standard. There are tangible benefits to the increased flange spacing and moving the chainring outboard. And plenty of players for components. I will offer 142 mm dropouts as an option. No superboost.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridge Rider View Post
    Without hitting the seat tube at full compression?
    that is correct for all models, even if you put 29 x 3.25 plus tires in the Outburst. The Meltdown will take 27.5 x 3.25.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Is there any chansen you could try to convince X-Fusion to make the Revel USD fork available as an (hopfully affordable) option on your pre-order bikes? 

    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
    At last notice, I have no information about the Revel's continued availability.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65bug View Post
    Nice design and congrats! Im sure you spent many a hour perfecting this and your still making adjustments. Questions, it would seem to me that maybe the shock is "worked" more then on the standard suspension bikes out there. Any ideas on shock maintenance and life with this new design?
    Also, Will there be aluminum frames as well. Or just carbon frames?
    Thanks
    Thank you 65bug. Perfecting? I hope not. but it has reached a point where it is substantially better than the competition in several key areas, so time to let people ride it.

    The main factor affecting how much a shock is "worked" is the leverage, or motion ratio. A bike that moves the rear wheel 3 mm for each mm of shock stroke has a 3:1 motion ratio. Similarly, a bike with a 2:1 motion ration will move the rear wheel 2 mm for every mm of shock stroke. For comparison, a telescopic front fork has a 1:1 motion ratio (discounting fork rake).

    Shock mfg prefer that a given design does not exceed 3:1. Ratios higher than this put too much demand on a small amount of shock stroke. It's hard to control and correctly dampen and spring 4 mm of wheel travel with only 1 mm of shock stroke. Air pressures, especially for a heavy rider, can exceed 300 psi.

    The other factor that can accelerate maintenance is the angle of shock rotation relative to the linkage and frame. This can wear the bushings and cause slop.

    The motion ratio on both the Meltdown and Outburst averages about 2.5 to 1 and doesn't exceed 3:1. The static pressure is relatively low, about 160-170psi for a 185 lb rider, about 230-240psi for a 260 pound rider.

    For the rotation factor, the lower shock mount uses bushings, but the rotation is less than 5 degrees, so wear is not an issue. At the top shock mount, the shock is mounted between the bearings of the Missing Link, so the bushings receive no rotation and no wear..

    The first production batch will be aluminum. i am in discussion about producing carbon frames, but have no current plans.

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I almost bought a Kona magic-link bike. I went back to look at it several times, but the porkiness was a stoke killer. Glad to see you are coming out with an updated version. Good to hear RC liked it. It would be great to get more reviews from folks like that as most of us will not get a demo so purchasing is a big leap of faith.
    A couple more test rides will be surfacing in the coming weeks. I was trying to time the kickstarter launch to coincide with the release of the articles as well as Eurobike and Interbike.

    That didn't work out, just too much to do and coodinate. So now, Kickstarter will launch around mid-oct, with test rides available to the public at the fall cyclefest in Charlotte, Oct 20-23

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Thank you 65bug. Perfecting? I hope not. but it has reached a point where it is substantially better than the competition in several key areas, so time to let people ride it.

    ...
    I let a friend who outweighs me by about 15 pounds ride my bike last week so I pumped up the rear shock. On my short ride this morning I noticed that the lower than usual amount of sag made the bike climb so much better in the short steep climbs out on South Mountain's desert classic trail -- less need for speed and modulation in pedaling effort.

    I suppose that if I had a Tantrum I could run my normal 30 percent sag and still get that good climbing feeling. Until then, I might just start carrying a shock pump around so I can adjust the suspension to the trail condition -- add air before the climb and take it out on the descent.
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
    The Milagro Beanfield War

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