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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post

    I have some setup changes to make on the Diamond (or maybe just break in time) because his Fox 34 felt way plusher on the small bumps.

    As mentioned above the Diamond was a bit rough but the back end never felt harsh but at the same time was very supportive. Pumping and jumping felt very different from my current bike, pressing into the pedals seemed to stiffen up the rear end. I am just learning to jump so I had my buddy give it a go and he compared it to a dirt jumper. Any others notice the firmness/support during pumping and jumping?

    Honestly I left the ride a bit perplexed. I have read/watch everything I could find on these bikes so I thought I knew what to expect but it was different enough from my current bike that I was struggling to understand what was going on. I am still struggling to put my experiences into words and what I have written above feels incomplete. Normal words and phrases used to describe full sus bikes somehow feel inadequate.
    Well, honestly I left this review feeling a little perplexed. But only a little. As I've said many times, you can explain it, show it, demonstrate it. It all makes sense. But you just can't imagine the real world effects until you FEEL it.

    "Normal words and phrases to describe full sus bikes somehow feel inadequate."

    Mind if I use that? Seriously, you guys are giving me great ad copy.

    A word about the DVO fork. my experience is that they need a fair bit of break in time. How much? I would say at least 10-20 hrs, depending on terrain. They do break in faster if you're using it hard.

    But initially, I seem to run 10-20 psi below where I eventually end up For me, a broken in fork I use about 115-125 (at 185 lbs). When new, I'll start around 95-100, just to get the fork to use most of it's travel (no jumps). At some point, I will notice I'm using more travel than I want and start pumping it up.

    Also, they seem to come with both low and high speed CD set at full stiff. i don't think anyone would like this. I generally run mine 1 click from full soft on both, and that's the way most of the demos were, except big jumpers.

    Thirdly, the neg spring can be adjusted via the OTT. It seems 5-8 turns in is a general starting setting and helps the fork draw into its travel.

    Hope this helps.

  2. #1202
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    [QUOTE=Mashlings;13417300 Couldn't resist the opportunity to be involved in Brian's wacky experiment though.

    Cheers,
    Mat[/QUOTE]

    I resemble that remark.

    cheers,

    Brian

  3. #1203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    There is a big difference between the reach of a bike frame and adjusting the reach via stem and handlebar. True reach is pushing the front wheel forward vs just placing your weight forward. Of course you have to setup the stem/bar/spacer to be comfortable and work for you. I believe you also need to think quite a bit about how you setup your seat and seatpost. For example I like to have 21.5" between the stem clamp and tip of the seat. But if I'm on a Geometron with a 520 reach, 35mm stem and a 75 degree seat angle, I am on a significantly different setup than a 470 reach, 50 mm stem and 73 degree seat angle.

    On paper I like where Brian put the reach - I think we will be tending towards a little bit longer reach at least until we go to far. After giving a 520 reach Geometron a good solid 3 day demo, I can say I know how far is too far (overall I didn't like the bike in most situations but it had its charms).

    I'm not quite as hip on the Tantrum 73 seat angle, but that can be ameliorated by using a non-offset seatpost (which I believe the DVO is) and slamming the seat forward. With my shorter inseam (32" at 5'11") my seat is 30" away from the BB. That means the difference between a 73 and 74 seat angle is only 1/2", which is pretty easy to make up by moving the seat. Also with the variable geo it might not matter as much.

    My backup bike if the Tantrum doesn't work out is probably another E29,but this time I would buy an XL to get the 483 reach. With my current 445 reach, I have to use a 75mm stem which i think is an impediment for DH. Sure I could run a 50 mm and mvoe the seat back, but that would compromise the climbing.

    By lengthening the reach we keep our weight forward enough to climb, but still "behind" the front wheel more to reduce endo'ing and provide more overall DH confidence. The downside to more and more reach is wheelbase though.

    Just some thoughts while I wait for my Tantrum.

    On my Large Meltdown I now have 19,7" (50cm) from tip of sadle to stem clamp (center of handlebars)
    Sadle is a bit forward on the rails. (Less then 1/2")
    35mm stem length.
    I'm 6' tall. No idea about inseam, but about average I think.. I prefer an more upright position then most I think. So it sounds like you should not have much problem with the seat angle.

    Brian.. Any news on the 29er dropouts?



    www.cyco.no

  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post

    A word about the DVO fork. my experience is that they need a fair bit of break in time. How much? I would say at least 10-20 hrs, depending on terrain. They do break in faster if you're using it hard.

    But initially, I seem to run 10-20 psi below where I eventually end up For me, a broken in fork I use about 115-125 (at 185 lbs). When new, I'll start around 95-100, just to get the fork to use most of it's travel (no jumps). At some point, I will notice I'm using more travel than I want and start pumping it up.

    Also, they seem to come with both low and high speed CD set at full stiff. i don't think anyone would like this. I generally run mine 1 click from full soft on both, and that's the way most of the demos were, except big jumpers.

    Thirdly, the neg spring can be adjusted via the OTT. It seems 5-8 turns in is a general starting setting and helps the fork draw into its travel.

    Hope this helps.
    Thanks for the setup advise, I changed my settings last night hopefully I can get another ride in soon.

    Feel free to use that quote or any other.

    When are we getting a manufactures forum?

  5. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    I'll start by saying I'm skeptical of stuff like suspensions that claim to fix all the problems suspension on mountain bikes have. I don't know if Brian noticed that when I demo'd the Tantrum last year or not. And honestly, I'm a bit skeptical of most "published professional reviews" of bikes you see online. But having ridden the Missing Link (and being a True Believer - it does what it claims) I made it exactly 5 minutes through the review video, and found myself very focused on watching the bike flex around in the parts of the video where the camera is mounted to the bike. I don't care if the suspension IS as good as they claim, that little dude on that bike causing it to flex like that? It'd turn into a pretzel if I put my clyde self on it.
    If I remember correctly, you were skeptical in an open, honest way before I even agreed to go down to TN to demo. You might hace even mentioned it here. Not in a bad way, just a logical way. Believe me, I'm used to it. I'm not asking anybody to drink the coolaid, just sling a leg over and give 'er hell.

    And so you did.

    This is a leap. As we saw in the demo reviews and now in the owner reviews. there is not a single rider that would say, "oh ya, I knew it would feel like that". Because there is no yardstick. Maybe the Magic Link showed some potential (Gunnar??) but not even close in overall effect.

    So, I'm claiming perpetual motion. skepticism is good. Too a point.

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    Personally I find reach figures rather pointless for the purpose of comparison given the wide variation in seat angles found now. One of my bikes has a reach of 415mm (Pivot Mach4) while the other one has 505mm (custom hardtail) but they both have exactly the same measurement from bars to saddle rail.

    Cheers,
    Mat
    The actual fit of a bike is much harder to determine what the geometry numbers show. For any given reach, there are an infinite combination of TT length and ST angle that will work. BUT, there is only one reach figure for each TT/ST angle combo.

    Then throw in rake. The more rake, the more reach you LOSE with stem spacers. But the front wheel is further out front. So while reach is one way to get behind the front wheel, rake is another. I prefer rake, but partly because the linkage gives me the ability to get rid of it while climbing, which I cannot do with reach.....

    I think the 500 mm XL has to be in the next batch....might have to open new tubing molds

  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post

    I'm not quite as hip on the Tantrum 73 seat angle,...... with the variable geo it might not matter as much.

    By lengthening the reach we keep our weight forward enough to climb, but still "behind" the front wheel more to reduce endo'ing and provide more overall DH confidence. The downside to more and more reach is wheelbase though.

    Just some thoughts while I wait for my Tantrum.
    Bingo. the variable geometry effect makes that ST angle feel like 78-79. Now it's difficult to confirm that unless you've actually ridden a bike like that. But let's just say, your saddle is up there where you need it, helping keep you forward and up. Where any other bike gets slacker.

  8. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post

    I'm not quite as hip on the Tantrum 73 seat angle, but that can be ameliorated by using a non-offset seatpost (which I believe the DVO is) and slamming the seat forward. With my shorter inseam (32" at 5'11") my seat is 30" away from the BB. That means the difference between a 73 and 74 seat angle is only 1/2", which is pretty easy to make up by moving the seat. Also with the variable geo it might not matter as much.

    By lengthening the reach we keep our weight forward enough to climb, but still "behind" the front wheel more to reduce endo'ing and provide more overall DH confidence. The downside to more and more reach is wheelbase though.

    .
    Here's the irony. one of the things driving long reach is steeper ST angles. For a given ST angle, you need longer reach to maintain TT length. But what has driven steeper ST angles? Climbing help, for sure. But also, the relentless push for shorter CS. Guess what? The wheel has to go somewhere. Especially at full travel. The steeper ST provides tire to ST clearance as well as tire to saddle clearance.

    So longer reach is driven by shorter CS. I actually had a straight ST on the samples, but with unfashionable 445 mm CS. In order to get to 428 on the production bikes, I had to put an S-shaped ST and thus, drop the ball on seat post insertion.....

  9. #1209
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    To allay rumours among conspiracy theorists that I am continuing my practicing of repainting frames and introducing BOLD NEW GRAPHICS, I hereby present proof of as close to mass production as I, my personal self, am ever likely to achieve.

    3 black beauties ready to go. Austin,TX, Huntsville, AL and New Zealand.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tre-black-1s.jpg

    This might be my favorite build. It's just so STEEL. Gunmetal. Sharp. Mineral. Sorry, I'm biased. And no carbonium fibre'. Which I'm not against, but still

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-george-build-1s.jpg

  10. #1210
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by litany View Post
    snip...The tantrum is the same, if you sit and spin and look down you can see the shock moves a little bit, itís probably pretty comparable to a Pivot, or like the new Trek Fuel EX. Whatís different is when you are standing and pedaling; instead of mushing down into its travel the shock extends towards top out, then between strokes you go back to sag...snip
    With an oval ring, you can move through the pedaling dead point quicker...food for thought.

    Great review btw.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  11. #1211
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    If I remember correctly, you were skeptical in an open, honest way before I even agreed to go down to TN to demo. You might hace even mentioned it here. Not in a bad way, just a logical way. Believe me, I'm used to it. I'm not asking anybody to drink the coolaid, just sling a leg over and give 'er hell.

    And so you did.

    This is a leap. As we saw in the demo reviews and now in the owner reviews. there is not a single rider that would say, "oh ya, I knew it would feel like that". Because there is no yardstick. Maybe the Magic Link showed some potential (Gunnar??) but not even close in overall effect.

    So, I'm claiming perpetual motion. skepticism is good. Too a point.
    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post

    >>>>>>>>>
    <<<<<<<<<

    ....This is a leap. As we saw in the demo reviews and now in the owner reviews. there is not a single rider that would say, "oh ya, I knew it would feel like that". Because there is no yardstick. Maybe the Magic Link showed some potential (Gunnar??) but not even close in overall effect.

    So, I'm claiming perpetual motion. skepticism is good. Too a point.
    Good point Brian. Your idea and great mission to make mountainbikes more versatile started with Magic Link.

    Set up correctly it was/is very good for swallowing sharp obstacles due to the rearward axle path.
    But coming from the Scott Genius remote adjustable in 3 steps.. (cutting off ~1/2 of the air volume, or locking the shock mechanically in full extension. )
    Well, I did not get enough of what I was looking for. So I ended up fitting an Lock up shock also to my Abracadabra to get full benefit of geometry adjustment. It was kind of half way to were we are now, and it made riding better. The smaller range of the Magic Link does a difference in rolling terrain. But it also needed "traditional" amount of traditional shock platform LSC dampening to avoid bob.
    With help of the full lock-up setting I easily outclimbed anyone who also could keep up with me descending, and a few others. But manual adjustments will always be a compromise... Should the shock be locked or not on less steep and more technical climbs?

    Scott. Cannondale. Canyon and a few others are still relying on the same or very similar manual remote adjustments. Works for fire road climbs type of rides, but.....

    Then finally. Bingo! The same friend who told me about the first version of Magic Link had now seen Brian with a new prototype that did all this all by itself AND seamlessly.

    A few riding buddies have been calling the Fox live valve technology to be the next big leap in mtb suspension. It might be a step forward if they can make it affordable. And it seems to work well on motorized offroad wehicles, but....

    Both Fox and Lapierre have been working on similar solutions for some time now. And It's still have not taken off.. Which I think it would have if they could implement geometry adjustment. And certainly if they could do it without costly electronics...

    Most of the sceptics seems to miss the point that geometry adjustments have a significant impact on climbing and descending properties.
    Somehow it seems the fact that many tend to blame there own limits in physical strength and technique, seems to hinder them from understanding that it all adds up on the trail.

    I wish anyone who have an urge to improve his climbing and/or descending without loosing anything in any end of the spectrum will get a chance to try a Tantrum!
    The ones who do not have access to a demo bike, and struggle to see the point... Go and demo any bike that have remote adjustable rear shock that could be locked up. Then go and climb the steepest smooth climb you can make and see the difference in climbing it locked up, and in fully open mode.

    www.cyco.no

  12. #1212
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    What is "Fox Live Valve Technolgy"?

    Certainly manufactures are going to attempt work arounds to avoid licensing technology but to compete with new age bikes like the Tantram that just flat climb better.

    I expect to see shocks that lock out whenever the dropper post is all the way up, and a shock that locks out on level ground and climbs, electronically. Likely using a BT app to adjust what plane the shock is in when it locks out so riders can adjust it for their specific shock orientation on their frame, their sag, and their preferences.

    Where I live the climbs are short, punchy, numerous, and often followed directly by a descent. Conditions that make it impractical to reach down and adjust a switch except for on the few extended climbs.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

  13. #1213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Where I live the climbs are short, punchy, numerous, and often followed directly by a descent. Conditions that make it impractical to reach down and adjust a switch except for on the few extended climbs.
    Exactly why I decided to get in on the Kickstarter.

  14. #1214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    What is "Fox Live Valve Technolgy"?
    http://reviews.mtbr.com/fox-live-val...are-bikes-next

    A system that certainly can make a bike very pedal efficient. But probably at a significant increase in cost. Also I can not see how geometry adjustment could be implement by the help of electronics.
    I guess many riders would like to avoid both electronics or remotes, simply because our life's are enough complicated and cluttered with gizmos and gadgets.
    I'm very satisfied in how Missinglink does it all by itself, and seamlessly. With no electronics. And no kind of adjustment need "on the fly"..

    [QUOTE/]

    Certainly manufactures are going to attempt work arounds to avoid licensing technology but to compete with new age bikes like the Tantram that just flat climb better.

    I expect to see shocks that lock out whenever the dropper post is all the way up, and a shock that locks out on level ground and climbs, electronically. Likely using a BT app to adjust what plane the shock is in when it locks out so riders can adjust it for their specific shock orientation on their frame, their sag, and their preferences.
    [/QUOTE]

    http://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/28/...ocks-climbing/

    But often I like to have plush suspension AND fully extended seat to be able to rest or pedal as efficient as possible when possible. And I know many riders that prefer the opposite to get the saddle out of the way on technical sections that..

    [QUOTE/]
    Where I live the climbs are short, punchy, numerous, and often followed directly by a descent. Conditions that make it impractical to reach down and adjust a switch except for on the few extended climbs. [/QUOTE]

    I agree it's very impractical. I remember several occasions when I suddenly have realized I've been in the wrong setting and be decided it have been a good idea to make the adjustment only to make that desicions to mess up braking, gear changes, line picking or even just simply balance. A few times leaving me moaning on the ground..
    To me the fact that we now don't have to to care about any desicions around climb switches or remotes. Or to forget about to... To me that's a giant leap in one of the things I love to do most, and also get to do almost every day.
    Not too bad to be fortunate to experience this progress in evolution.
    Among the evolution of other bike components, it's similar to what the progression of skiis and snowboards have given us trough the last 20yers..



    www.cyco.no

  15. #1215
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    electronic valves, brains...smart sensors...etc will always have lag
    and yes no geo change by themselves. that geo change is a big deal

    missing link has absolute zero lag
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:40 AM.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  16. #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Good point Brian. Your idea and great mission to make mountainbikes more versatile started with Magic Link.

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    It didn't start there at all. It started in the early 90's when suspension first came to MTB. Even before that. When I 10, I put a coil spring in between the fork crown and the head tube on my stingray. Essentially inventing the first headshock.

    The fact that the handlebars went up and down at the same time was only a slight deterrent. The fact that I couldn't keep bearings in it and the steerer tube eventually snapped off at the crown when I landed from a wheelie on a paved road......was slightly more of a deterrent.

    Now flash forward to the 90's. After a lifetime of racing bikes and MX, my dream was happening, suspension was coming to mountain bikes. The long standing objection of "but it'll weigh more than my 19 lb titanium hardtail" was finally being overtaken by common sense.

    My first mtb shock. 1" of stroke to replace the terrible Marz air shock that came on the Super v.

    This shock had external compression and rebound and ALSO external air volume adjustment. forget about volume spacers. It was to be a high end CODA shock, which C'dale was building up into a high end component line. I went to Bedford, CT and we laid railroad ties in the hallway to hit (since it was a former rail house and there was 2 feet of snow on the ground).

    In the middle of our negotiations, Fox came in and offered a full race sponsor/oe package deal. It included Alps 4 shock for $45, but it had to be exclusive. So I was out. My shock would've cost more than $45 just for the labor to assemble it...

    When I came up with the Magic Link, it was out of frustration trying to sell exotic shocks to the mtb industry. They wanted cheap. So I decided to make a suspension that would do what some of my shocks did, while using a dirt cheap shock.

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-sv-shock-1-w.jpg

  17. #1217
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    OMG how long has mountain bike suspension suffered because the shocks have to be cheap. It blows me away that in 2017 I have yet to see a single legitimate dyno chart of a mountain bike shock and no some little tiny jpg with no units on it doesn't count. I see guys are finally starting to look into shim stacks and the rest but how can you reliably tune a shock without comparing it on a shock dyno ? Heck if I knew a little bit more about it I'd try to build one and create a new product. I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a motorcycle one ? I'm only familar with car shock dynos which are probably too big and much too expensive.

    Which reminds me Brian I know you mentioned the damping strategy on the DVO shocks but I forgot what you said and too lazy to look it up - are they custom shimmed for you ? If I wanted to experiment with a different shock do I need to set it up "weird" ? (does the bike fit a standard shock in this case an X2 or some Avalanche item ?)

    > Then go and climb the steepest smooth climb you can make and see the difference in climbing it locked up, and in fully open mode.

    I've always wondered about this - I ride an E29 which is a very active Horst link design, and yet when I sit and pedal, there is almost no bob. Shock lockout makes very little difference to me unless I stand and mash, which I don't do a lot of since our climbs tend to be long, not varied and punchy, or they are super technical where you don't want lockout. I have ridden bikes that have bob while pedalling though but its been awhile. Maybe its just that I tend to run higher pressure (and very little LC with just the right amount of rebound). I guess if I lived somwhere with a lot of punchy climbs and stand up sprinting I could see more desire for a lockout

  18. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    OMG how long has mountain bike suspension suffered because the shocks have to be cheap. It blows me away that in 2017 I have yet to see a single legitimate dyno chart of a mountain bike shock and no some little tiny jpg with no units on it doesn't count. I see guys are finally starting to look into shim stacks and the rest but how can you reliably tune a shock without comparing it on a shock dyno ? Heck if I knew a little bit more about it I'd try to build one and create a new product. I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a motorcycle one ? I'm only familar with car shock dynos which are probably too big and much too expensive.

    Which reminds me Brian I know you mentioned the damping strategy on the DVO shocks but I forgot what you said and too lazy to look it up - are they custom shimmed for you ? If I wanted to experiment with a different shock do I need to set it up "weird" ? (does the bike fit a standard shock in this case an X2 or some Avalanche item ?)

    > Then go and climb the steepest smooth climb you can make and see the difference in climbing it locked up, and in fully open mode.

    I've always wondered about this - I ride an E29 which is a very active Horst link design, and yet when I sit and pedal, there is almost no bob. Shock lockout makes very little difference to me unless I stand and mash, which I don't do a lot of since our climbs tend to be long, not varied and punchy, or they are super technical where you don't want lockout. I have ridden bikes that have bob while pedalling though but its been awhile. Maybe its just that I tend to run higher pressure (and very little LC with just the right amount of rebound). I guess if I lived somwhere with a lot of punchy climbs and stand up sprinting I could see more desire for a lockout
    I believe most manu's have dyno's these days.

    http://www.dvosuspension.com/blog/ou...o-has-arrived/

    Although many reputable suspension experts do not use dyno's and are quite capable of quality tunes...

  19. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    > Then go and climb the steepest smooth climb you can make and see the difference in climbing it locked up, and in fully open mode.

    I've always wondered about this - I ride an E29 which is a very active Horst link design, and yet when I sit and pedal, there is almost no bob. Shock lockout makes very little difference to me unless I stand and mash, which I don't do a lot of since our climbs tend to be long, not varied and punchy, or they are super technical where you don't want lockout. I have ridden bikes that have bob while pedalling though but its been awhile. Maybe its just that I tend to run higher pressure (and very little LC with just the right amount of rebound). I guess if I lived somwhere with a lot of punchy climbs and stand up sprinting I could see more desire for a lockout
    My point was that bikes that have a shock with mechanical Lock-UP (in contrast to hydraulic lock-out) not only makes the rear firm, but also lets you rais the BB and steepen the HTA (if you unweight the rear wheel) similar to how high resistance in a very steep and smooth climb makes the Missinglink extend the shock completely and consistently.


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  20. #1220
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    well I'm sure the manufacturers have them but I've yet to see them share the data. Note that DVO post is from 2012 and if there are any dyno charts on the DVO site I haven't seen them. I'll admit the caveat that a shock dyno graph is only useful wehn comparing it on the same linkage. I guess in an ideal world you would hook a shock dyno to the rear axle to compare across bikes, although I don't think the moto guys or even the car guys worry much about their final motion ratios, but there is also probably a lot less variance than the current bicycle world (with the Missing Link being one of the more exotic setups).

    I understand many experts can revalve without a dyno but the key there is rider feedback. I know what I like and don't like but I really can't translate that into "needs more mid-valve". But if you showed me a dyno graph of a shock, and then showed me another dyno graph with the knobs set differently, I would be much more capable of articulating the differences. Right now I can ride my Avalanched Fox CTD, my stock monarch RC+, and my avalanched monarch RC+ and I can tell you I like the Avy Monarch the best, but about the only feedback I can give you is that it feels less "choppy" than the CTD and "more controlled" than the stock Monarch. I would love to see the dyno graphs comparing the 3, then I could understand what I like going forward.

    another example, I have a coil Jade on my dh bike. At one time I had the top of the line Avy remote reservoir shock (albeit on a different dh bike). The Jade is fine, it works fine, and I have no complaints and yet - that old Avy I used to have was just soooo nice like a giant compliant feather pillow. Why ? what is the difference ? When people start using words like "plush" , "compliant", "responsive" it reminds me of audiophiles and wine tasters, all of a sudden we're in a world with very little objectivity and engineering.
    "I found this shock to be impertinent, but with an intriguing oakey aftertaste although tinged with a touch of shrillness in the mid-range" (ha ha mixed metaphors)

  21. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    My point was that bikes that have a shock with mechanical Lock-UP (in contrast to hydraulic lock-out) not only makes the rear firm, but also lets you rais the BB and steepen the HTA (if you unweight the rear wheel) similar to how high resistance in a very steep and smooth climb makes the Missinglink extend the shock completely and consistently.


    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    Okay I understand what you were getting at now.

  22. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I went to Bedford, CT and we laid railroad ties in the hallway to hit (since it was a former rail house and there was 2 feet of snow on the ground).
    Was that actually Bedford, PA? Not far from where I went to school, and a friend of a friend used to work at C'dale. Frames occasionally showed up in my buddy's apartment at school during development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I guess in an ideal world you would hook a shock dyno to the rear axle to compare across bikes

    I know what I like and don't like but I really can't translate that into "needs more mid-valve".
    Good points. Quantifying a feel would definitely help some of us who suffer from bike related obsessive-compulsive tendencies...

  24. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Which reminds me Brian I know you mentioned the damping strategy on the DVO shocks but I forgot what you said and too lazy to look it up - are they custom shimmed for you ? If I wanted to experiment with a different shock do I need to set it up "weird" ? (does the bike fit a standard shock in this case an X2 or some Avalanche item ?)
    I have DVO put an unusually soft shim stack in the compression side. When I first tested the DVO, it felt good, but I could tell right away the it was overdamped. why? Because that's what every OE specs. All bike brands from all shock brands (except polygon??)

    The shock length standard, but that doesn't mean all will fit. I tried to get an X2, but couldn't due to the recall. And they won't make one with a soft valve stack. And the stories of needing high pressure (300psi) kinda turn me off as well.

    I will say this. Ride it first. Ride it for awhile. If you get to the point where you think the shock should do something different, let's talk.

  25. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post


    My backup bike if the Tantrum doesn't work out ...............
    won't be necessarry

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I believe most manu's have dyno's these days.
    Having a dyno and knowing what to do with it are two different things. I started test riding motocross shocks before dynos existed. I had to be my own dyno.

    Instead of riding thru the whoops, crashing and then complaining that the shock made me crash, I had to figure out why. And be able to tell the guy revalving the shocks. And eventually learn to revalve myself.

    For the record, my linkages have all been done without any canned software, dyno or on-board data acquisition of any sort. I'm not saying some of the tools wouldn't be useful, but I don't have them and just went with what always worked. Free body diagrams and my ass.

  27. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Was that actually Bedford, PA? Not far from where I went to school, and a friend of a friend used to work at C'dale. Frames occasionally showed up in my buddy's apartment at school during development.
    ok, it was Bethel, CT. That was their design hq

  28. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    ok, it was Bethel, CT. That was their design hq
    Wow, those two cities are surprisingly similarly-named. I wonder if that was a criterion on Cannondale's part.

  29. #1229
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    FBD for the MFW !

    Everything that is needed to solve a force system is included on the FBD.

    Free body diagrams may not seem necessary in relatively simple current applications, but as problems become more complex, their usefulness increases.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    won't be necessarry
    It will if my Tantrum doesn't get delivered until next October.

    Oh, snap !

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    electronic valves, brains...smart sensors...etc will always have lag

    missing link has absolute zero lag
    this is a key point. People don't understand the difference between digital time and real time (analog). Digital time has individual data points at each time segment. Data does not exist in the time between each point, or sample. Real time is continuous. Life is real time. Vinyl records are real time. CD's (what?? mp3's whatever) are digital. They miss a lot of the music, even with "oversampling".

    They boast about a sampling rate of 200/sec on the live valve promo. At a mere 15 mph, you are traveling 22 ft/sec, or 264 inches per second. Sampling at 200/sec give you a data point every 1.32 inches. Everything in between those 1.32 inches is invisible. This is linear and only gets worse when you need it most. At 30 mph, you gt a sample every 2.64 inches. These are the samples that are sending a signal to the computer to try to sort out what to do with the shocks.

    It's just too little too late. For the record, I have plenty of experience woring with active suspension on race cars and also inertia valve shocks, way before S fvcked it up.

    Race car analogy. I would laugh at the data geeks that would present me with recorded data from Indy and demand I should change the shocks based on their 2000 sample/sec data. That's every 2 inches at 220 mph. Fine for steady-ish state stuff like aero pressures on the straight. But forget about shock stuff. Bump and cornering loads are realtime.

  32. #1232
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    By the way,

    all these Linkage program runners
    who want the TOP secrets on missing link,


    well I have some news !

    I hacked deep into BB data stores and found the FREE BODY DIAGRAMS,
    so here it is for all to view.
    License the missing link be damned, now it's exposed !

    see it's simple, no brake forces, nothing to it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-fig1.jpg  

    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  33. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    FBD for the MTMFW !

    Everything that is needed to solve a force system is included on the FBD.

    Free body diagrams may not seem necessary in relatively simple current applications, but as problems become more complex, their usefulness increases.
    how old are you??? That's how I knew I was in over my head with my detractors here and on RM. When they insisted that some canned software gave superior results and I mentioned FBD's. Scorn ensued. My dynamics professor would roll over (not sure if he's alive or not).

  34. #1234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    It will if my Tantrum doesn't get delivered until next October.

    Oh, snap !
    how long did you procrastinate before you pulled the trigger??

    the list is moving, you're just near the bottom of it.

  35. #1235
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    how old are you??? .
    I used one of these in school if you are asking. old and mean.

    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  36. #1236
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    By the way,

    all these Linkage program runners
    who want the TOP secrets on missing link,


    well I have some news !

    I hacked deep into BB data stores and found the FREE BODY DIAGRAMS,
    so here it is for all to view.
    License the missing link be damned, now it's exposed !

    see it's simple, no brake forces, nothing to it.
    that is every bit as meaningful as the linkage output curves I saw

  37. #1237
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I used one of these in school if you are asking. old and mean.

    holy crap. I avoided physics in high school, then did a stint in the AF before college, so by the time I went, calculators had been invented. So I never had to learn that torture device, although I had a brief go at an abacus.

    Old and mean, that's what I said on the RM forum. I'm old and I come from a bad neighborhood.

  38. #1238
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    I am younger than you, but I have experience with the old stuff

    I was in AF Intel, and though this was originally a Navy computer,
    this was -my- baby (In my Tac Intel Squadron) one of these UYK-7's

    https://www.ithistory.org/db/hardwar...y-rand/anuyk-7

    Now....there is a good reason for this old Navy Aegis jalopy being used by the Air Force, for my specific mission...it is portable (heavy lift helicopter portable) impervious to [**redacted**] and we re-purposed it...no it didn't run Aegis for what we did. we booted it with octal addressing buttons (2.25 octets make 18 bits) and paper (mylar) tape. stuff you can make by hand....'cuz it works in combat when you get all shot up, you can make half this thing work again with shoelaces and glue.

    dem were the days. this old hog died daily but you literally banged on it and restarted it and it did it's job ultra fast. so much [**redacted**] went through this thing....
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  39. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I am younger than you,
    that's been a disturbing trend

  40. #1240
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    I'm 47. Take that for what it's worth. I didn't use punch cards or slide rules in school, but the first calculators I used had red LED readouts, like the original TI-30. 8" floppies were passe by the time I got hooked on computers (Apple II+ circa 1978 in grade school), so I started with 5-1/4". Well, actually, I started with using a cassette tape drive to save programs.

    I have shoes older than some of the new folks I've had working with me, and they're college grads (for age reference)...

    I like the sample rate discussion. I never broke it down to that, but I'm now thinking about picturing the trail as though it only had new obstacles every 1.32in...

    I'm typing this next to a couple of my old analog synthesizers, btw.

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    Brian, are you going to be having any demos near Phoenix, AZ anytime soon?

  42. #1242
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    I'm forty but I'm in an industry where products have VERY long life cycles. We are still making some products that wouldn't make it past a modern design review because they were designed on a drafting table and their shapes can't be constructed in CAD, therefore they can't be turned into finite element models for structural analysis. They were proofed in the first place by making a few dozen or hundred, and breaking them. We have a few places we still do this, especially as it relates to reliability of one-use devices. I never had to use a slide rule but I did learn how, and it was useful to understand how the engineers used to work. It also helps with some of the philosophy of engineering - like how important is it, really, to have a 1mm tolerance on a 1m thingie, unless there's a mating part? If three significant figures is about the best you can do on a foot-long slide rule, that's probably good enough for most things.

  43. #1243
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I like the sample rate discussion. I never broke it down to that, but I'm now thinking about picturing the trail as though it only had new obstacles every 1.32in...
    I try and look at the terrain as if it's got a mesh 3d map over it when trying to pick lines.

    Hasn't worked so far, but one day...

  44. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I used one of these in school if you are asking. old and mean.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how to use one of those too. I also know how to bias a tube amp. But I'm still standing on top of the hill, for a little while.

  45. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    I'm 47. Take that for what it's worth. I didn't use punch cards or slide rules in school, but the first calculators I used had red LED readouts, like the original TI-30. 8" floppies were passe by the time I got hooked on computers (Apple II+ circa 1978 in grade school), so I started with 5-1/4". Well, actually, I started with using a cassette tape drive to save programs.

    I have shoes older than some of the new folks I've had working with me, and they're college grads (for age reference)...

    I like the sample rate discussion. I never broke it down to that, but I'm now thinking about picturing the trail as though it only had new obstacles every 1.32in...

    I'm typing this next to a couple of my old analog synthesizers, btw.
    Wow, this matches me almost to a T and I'm 54. I guess most are a sign of the times back then.

    I didn't use punch cards but remember my dad bringing boxes and boxes of them home.
    I didn't use a slide rule but I know my dad did (in college I had a job as a draftsman and one of the guys in the shop always called my scale a slide rule).
    My first calculator had red LEDs.
    Started with the original IBM PC, used a cassette tape drive to save, later moved on to 5-1/4"
    I'm not sure I have shoes older then some of my coworkers but I do have underwear older then some of them (rarely worn, that's why it has held up)!
    I used to have an Arp Odyssey.

    It's kind of sad, some of these things are really lost arts, drafting by hand and using a slide rule.
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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    Brian, any plans for a shorter-travel, say 140mm model?

    And if you do, I would suggest calling it "Berthold", after the character played by Eric Idle, a trans-continental sprinter, on the movie "The adventures of Baron Munchausen".

    Such a fitting name, me thinks.
    d butt u kicked today, could b d same butt you'll kiss tomorrow.....

  47. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiva View Post
    Brian, are you going to be having any demos near Phoenix, AZ anytime soon?
    once I get these customers out of the way...taken care of. It will be getting cold around here and I'll be looking for excuses to go riding elsewhere while waiting for the next batch of frames. Expect Western demos in Dec/Jan/Feb

  48. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I'm forty but I'm in an industry where products have VERY long life cycles. We are still making some products that wouldn't make it past a modern design review because they were designed on a drafting table and their shapes can't be constructed in CAD, therefore they can't be turned into finite element models for structural analysis.
    this is a much bigger problem. The advent of 3d design, while opening up any doors, has closed more. How so? I was lucky enough to come up during paper and pencil. If you could imagine the shape, you could draw it. I have a "curve" tool that you can make any combo of varying radii, you can't do that with cad. now, dimensioning said curve and getting somebody to make it pre cnc is another story, but those artists exist, still.

    Now, you can only design as good as you are with the software. I had to learn solidworks because people had lost the ability to look at my 2d drawings and re-create them in solidworks. With Kona and the magic link bikes, they were having particular trouble with an intricate forging. I had given them sectional 2d views in 1 mm increments, but my counterpart at the factory did not possess the technical skill in SW to produce the needed "loft". I paid a local SW expert $125 and sent it. They said, "oh, we can make it, we just couldn't draw it"

    This is rampant.

  49. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post

    It's kind of sad, some of these things are really lost arts, drafting by hand
    my best friend, Trevor H, one of the most prolific and successful american (or otherwise) race car designers, is 75 and still draws everything in full scale, pencil and paper. when I visit, I have to go into his office just to see the drawing board

    his drawings are art. I'm gonna put some of my old race car pencil blueprints on my new office wall

  50. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeered1 View Post
    Brian, any plans for a shorter-travel, say 140mm model?

    And if you do, I would suggest calling it "Berthold", after the character played by Eric Idle, a trans-continental sprinter, on the movie "The adventures of Baron Munchausen".

    Such a fitting name, me thinks.
    140 exists now. Shorter stroke shock.

    Now I have to google that movie. Is it Monty Python? First, "The Life of Brian" and now this? Why are they taunting me??

  51. #1251
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    140 exists now. Shorter stroke shock.

    Now I have to google that movie. Is it Monty Python? First, "The Life of Brian" and now this? Why are they taunting me??
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries! Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
    --"Monty Python and the Holy Grail"


    So you're saying, if I had a Shining and wanted it to be a 140mm bike instead of a 160, I'd use a shock with the same eye to eye, and a shorter stroke? Because my brain is tickling....

  52. #1252
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    Went on until the chain went stiffie today. Over 3 hours of amazingly fun on mostly ice covered trails. So fun on good stud tires. In the end I made one optimistic not so well thought trough passage of some non frozen mud which ended the ride freezing on the drivetrain, Luckily not far from home.
    The mud clearenece are very good on this bike.
    Can't wait to go out again tomorrow. just need to rinse the bike a bit first...

    www.cyco.no

  53. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    ...So fun on good stud tires....
    Schwalbe Ice Spikers.
    Do the math.

  54. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Went on until the chain went stiffie today. Over 3 hours of amazingly fun on mostly ice covered trails. So fun on good stud tires. In the end I made one optimistic not so well thought trough passage of some non frozen mud which ended the ride freezing on the drivetrain, Luckily not far from home.
    The mud clearenece are very good on this bike.
    Can't wait to go out again tomorrow. just need to rinse the bike a bit first...

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    How cold does it have to be for all that to freeze up on the bike like that while you're riding? I'm always curious what people's limits are for riding in the cold, and trying to figure out how that happened. I've ridden in 8 degrees F, but everything was frozen completely solid at that point, and had been for days.

  55. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries! Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
    --"Monty Python and the Holy Grail"


    So you're saying, if I had a Shining and wanted it to be a 140mm bike instead of a 160, I'd use a shock with the same eye to eye, and a shorter stroke? Because my brain is tickling....
    I shall show my private parts to you auntie, even if now that has become sexually predatorilly incorrect. Thanks louis for ruining it for everyone.

    fine, I will grab my bulge in front of your auntie....dammit, not quite the same sting....

    they make a shock with 6 mm less stroke. Take it to about 142mm same eye to eye.

    BUT, the pukka 140 dropouts give a shorter CS and lower BB than the 160 DO's (in 29er form)

  56. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    How cold does it have to be for all that to freeze up on the bike like that while you're riding? I'm always curious what people's limits are for riding in the cold, and trying to figure out how that happened. I've ridden in 8 degrees F, but everything was frozen completely solid at that point, and had been for days.
    My limit seems to be 18 degrees F at 20 min. Lower temp and/or longer than that, my toes, hands or shifter cable freeze, and/or I don't give a FF.

    above freezing, especially Jan/Feb is pretty sweet, esp if the ground is still frozen.

    But I plan to be riding in warmer climes. Demos anyone???

  57. #1257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    How cold does it have to be for all that to freeze up on the bike like that while you're riding? I'm always curious what people's limits are for riding in the cold, and trying to figure out how that happened. I've ridden in 8 degrees F, but everything was frozen completely solid at that point, and had been for days.
    It was somewhere betweens 20 and 25F when the chain started to jump. Normally it would not have been any problem using wetlube which I usually have a small bottle of in the backpack. This time the chain had wax based squirt lube emulsion lube on it. Supposed to work fine in freezing conditions. But as expected, not so good in mixed wet And freezing, as it often is just before the snow in this area just west of Oslo. It actually got one section of a climb with a few hundred metres of loos mostly flat rocks from hand size and up. And in anything but fully dried up conditions it have a stream of water going down that enters from under ground high up. Even if it's been raining heavily it's stil possible to ride all of it since most of the water drains out on the sides. It's pretty fun to get there in freezing conditions since that stream stays liquid well below freezing as the water is kept warmer from under the ground. So it's not slippery at all from where the trail gets loser and steepens up and more grip is needed as you expect to get into trouble.
    I use my 5.10 cleat shoes. That works good with thicker wool socks to around 20F as long as I stay dry, which I almost did this time. I have done many good rides in 10F on sunny days. So cold and I can't stop at all or even ride slowly using my cleat shoes. But plenty of fun Strava segments in that area to keep me warm.
    Most of them are either punchy up or down so I have created some with a bit more endurance involved. I'm exited to see how long a will stay on top of this one
    https://www.strava.com/segments/15370885 and if anyone will complain about the commercialised description. I can't find any rules against that, and until Tantrum brand are widely known I don't feel bad about using all available channels to "spread the word"..

    www.cyco.no

  58. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    they make a shock with 6 mm less stroke. Take it to about 142mm same eye to eye.

    BUT, the pukka 140 dropouts give a shorter CS and lower BB than the 160 DO's (in 29er form)
    Never mind any sort of "correctness" - next time you're in the neighborhood, stop by and we can have drink and watch Blazing Saddles. That'll cure and correctness problems you're having.

    So if I understand you, there's a set of 140mm 29er dropouts in the works? But still, if I happen to be big, dumb, and ugly, and like a slightly higher BB because I choose to try to ride up hills with big rocks, I can get close to 140 using the 160 dropouts and then swap shocks and have a true 160 as well?

  59. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    It was somewhere betweens 20 and 25F when the chain started to jump. Normally it would not have been any problem using wetlube which I usually have a small bottle of in the backpack. This time the chain had wax based squirt lube emulsion lube on it. Supposed to work fine in freezing conditions. But as expected, not so good in mixed wet And freezing, as it often is just before the snow in this area just west of Oslo. It actually got one section of a climb with a few hundred metres of loos mostly flat rocks from hand size and up. And in anything but fully dried up conditions it have a stream of water going down that enters from under ground high up. Even if it's been raining heavily it's stil possible to ride all of it since most of the water drains out on the sides. It's pretty fun to get there in freezing conditions since that stream stays liquid well below freezing as the water is kept warmer from under the ground. So it's not slippery at all from where the trail gets loser and steepens up and more grip is needed as you expect to get into trouble.
    I use my 5.10 cleat shoes. That works good with thicker wool socks to around 20F as long as I stay dry, which I almost did this time. I have done many good rides in 10F on sunny days. So cold and I can't stop at all or even ride slowly using my cleat shoes. But plenty of fun Strava segments in that area to keep me warm.
    Most of them are either punchy up or down so I have created some with a bit more endurance involved. I'm exited to see how long a will stay on top of this one
    https://www.strava.com/segments/15370885 and if anyone will complain about the commercialised description. I can't find any rules against that, and until Tantrum brand are widely known I don't feel bad about using all available channels to "spread the word"..

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    Yep. I must live in the wrong place. Everyone around here starts crying about the weather when it gets cold, and how they can't ride, but then it warms up in the winter, and they want to ride thawed out sloppy trails. I'll wake up early to catch it all frozen solid. Some of the best riding there is...

  60. #1260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I use my 5.10 cleat shoes. That works good with thicker wool socks to around 20F as long as I stay dry, which I almost did this time. I have done many good rides in 10F on sunny days. So cold and I can't stop at all or even ride slowly using my cleat shoes. But plenty of fun Strava segments in that area to keep me warm.
    Most of them are either punchy up or down so I have created some with a bit more endurance involved. I'm exited to see how long a will stay on top of this one
    https://www.strava.com/segments/15370885 and if anyone will complain about the commercialised description. I can't find any rules against that, and until Tantrum brand are widely known I don't feel bad about using all available channels to "spread the word"..

    Cyco - Terrengsykler fra Orange Bikes, Evil og mye mer!
    I love the segment! Great advertising to have the KOM riding a Tantrum on a segment dedicated to Tantrum . I wouldn't feel bad about that at all.

    Normally I ride in 5.10 Impacts which block a lot of wind but when the temps get below 30F I use a pair of Lake MXZ303s. Buy them one size up for thick socks and good circulation. I've been road biking in them at 15 degrees with the wind chill well below zero and my feet have stayed perfectly warm.

  61. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    above freezing, especially Jan/Feb is pretty sweet, esp if the ground is still frozen.

    But I plan to be riding in warmer climes. Demos anyone???
    I've been watching this thread for months, just waiting for real world reviews to kill the hype. And it is not happening!

    Where is the best place to find out about demos? I do not see an "events" section on the website. I live in Maryland (Balt/Wash area).

  62. #1262
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hn View Post
    I've been watching this thread for months, just waiting for real world reviews to kill the hype. And it is not happening!

    Where is the best place to find out about demos? I do not see an "events" section on the website. I live in Maryland (Balt/Wash area).
    Theres definitely been about 4 real world reviews on this thread.

  63. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Theres definitely been about 4 real world reviews on this thread.
    Sorry; guess I was not clear. I have read the real world reviews and the hype is not being killed. The hype is real. So I want to experience it for myself.

  64. #1264
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    Brian's busy building up his Kickstarter bikes and frames. Somewhere in this thread, he's mentioned how demos won't be back until he's gotten those out the door, but he does plan on demoing bikes as soon as that's possible.

  65. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hn View Post
    I've been watching this thread for months, just waiting for real world reviews to kill the hype. And it is not happening!

    Where is the best place to find out about demos? I do not see an "events" section on the website. I live in Maryland (Balt/Wash area).
    I've already talked to Brian and he mentioned coming to our area this year, so I plan on holding him to it
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  66. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    ...

    But I plan to be riding in warmer climes. Demos anyone???
    Jump on a plane to Australia. Plenty warm down in Melbourne at the moment. Mid 80's for that weird fahrenheit measurement you guys use. I'll shout the drinks.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    Jump on a plane to Australia. Plenty warm down in Melbourne at the moment. Mid 80's for that weird fahrenheit measurement you guys use. I'll shout the drinks.
    You can shout me a drink, I'm just up the road! Are you one of the other Kickstarter Aussies?

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    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-img_0067.jpg

    Building up my frame at the office!

    I was really hoping to get it finished up before Thanksgiving so I could get some seat time over the long weekend, but it looks like the package with my wheel rims is lost in Atlanta somewhere. And of course, I tried to stay current by going with boost hub spacing front and rear for the first time, so I have no other wheels around the house that will work.

  69. #1269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Never mind any sort of "correctness" - next time you're in the neighborhood, stop by and we can have drink and watch Blazing Saddles. That'll cure and correctness problems you're having.

    So if I understand you, there's a set of 140mm 29er dropouts in the works? But still, if I happen to be big, dumb, and ugly, and like a slightly higher BB because I choose to try to ride up hills with big rocks, I can get close to 140 using the 160 dropouts and then swap shocks and have a true 160 as well?
    I'm not really worried about being correct about anything. I even get a little irritated when my math equations ad up.

    To answer your question with another. You want to get a 160 mm travel 29er, but have the option to put a short shock on it and make it 140 mm?

  70. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I love the segment! Great advertising to have the KOM riding a Tantrum on a segment dedicated to Tantrum . I wouldn't feel bad about that at all.
    I don't even feel a little bit bad

  71. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Theres definitely been about 4 real world reviews on this thread.
    I think there's at least 6 owner reviews here and one on nsmb.

    Frustrating for me too as there are over 20 frames out there, but not all have been built, not all have good riding weather and not all post on forums.

    But there's definitely more coming as I keep getting them out there.

  72. #1272
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hn View Post
    I've been watching this thread for months, just waiting for real world reviews to kill the hype. And it is not happening!

    Where is the best place to find out about demos? I do not see an "events" section on the website. I live in Maryland (Balt/Wash area).
    I will announce them hear , on the website and social media. As mentioned, my focus right now is to deliver the bikes I have, then I can worry about selling the next batch.

  73. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I've already talked to Brian and he mentioned coming to our area this year, so I plan on holding him to it
    A lot of interest in Va, Pa, the whole NE, also, which I have pretty much fair weather neglected so far.

  74. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    Jump on a plane to Australia. Plenty warm down in Melbourne at the moment. Mid 80's for that weird fahrenheit measurement you guys use. I'll shout the drinks.
    You know what's an even longer flight than Taiwan? Australia. I used to fly to Surfer's Paradise every year fro the Indy car race. 36 hours, door to door (house to hotel). Talk about down under....I think the key is to go while I'm already in Taiwan. But don't hold your breath.

    BtW, I actually brought my C'dale super v with me to one race and went and explored some local trails in Surfer's Paradise. '95 or so

  75. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    You can shout me a drink, I'm just up the road! Are you one of the other Kickstarter Aussies?
    The other Aussie is in Shady Creek and I have one is New Zealand I'm shipping tomorrow.

    You Aussies aren't too far down the list......

  76. #1276
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    Quote Originally Posted by bzflag View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0067.jpg 
Views:	68 
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ID:	1168563

    Building up my frame at the office!

    I was really hoping to get it finished up before Thanksgiving so I could get some seat time over the long weekend, but it looks like the package with my wheel rims is lost in Atlanta somewhere. And of course, I tried to stay current by going with boost hub spacing front and rear for the first time, so I have no other wheels around the house that will work.
    Boostinate Man!!!! Cobble up some spacers, don't even bother to offset the rim, just run it 3 mm offset. I say that in jest, but I might have to try it.

  77. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mashlings View Post
    You can shout me a drink, I'm just up the road! Are you one of the other Kickstarter Aussies?
    Sadly, no
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  78. #1278
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    You know what's an even longer flight than Taiwan? Australia. I used to fly to Surfer's Paradise every year fro the Indy car race. 36 hours, door to door (house to hotel). Talk about down under....I think the key is to go while I'm already in Taiwan. But don't hold your breath.

    BtW, I actually brought my C'dale super v with me to one race and went and explored some local trails in Surfer's Paradise. '95 or so
    But...but...free beer!!!
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  79. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I think there's at least 6 owner reviews here and one on nsmb.

    Frustrating for me too as there are over 20 frames out there, but not all have been built, not all have good riding weather and not all post on forums.

    But there's definitely more coming as I keep getting them out there.
    I got in two rides... now 3,722 miles from my bike and won't
    be back at it for another week.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  80. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I'm not really worried about being correct about anything. I even get a little irritated when my math equations ad up.

    To answer your question with another. You want to get a 160 mm travel 29er, but have the option to put a short shock on it and make it 140 mm?
    Maybe. I don't doubt if I lived in the rowdiest riding area imaginable that the 160 would be the perfect bike. But I'm a little concerned it would get boring around here. By the same token, I think in terms of my absolute requirements 125mm is not going to be enough. To be honest, the other bike I'm seriously considering is 140mm, because I think a 140mm 29er would be the sweet spot for me. But if, by buying a second shock, I could ride the 160mm as a 140mm most of the time, then drop the longer stroke shock on it when I hit the party zone.....well, that would just be slicker than greased eel ****.

  81. #1281
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    Just put another couple pumps in the shock :-D

  82. #1282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Just put another couple pumps in the shock :-D
    Might be worth to check up how much difference it would make to crank the piggyback preassure up to max recommended 200psi. Maybe even a bit more might be allowed and could make the shock more progressive to act more like 140 then 160mm travel?

    www.cyco.no

  83. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Demos anyone???
    Would love to see you here - Snowmass Demo Days

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    ... and I have one is New Zealand I'm shipping tomorrow.
    That would be me! Looking forward to receiving, slowly stocking up the pile of parts needed to build it.

    Brian - was there any progress with 142 dropouts, or do I need to find a way to boostinate? If it's 142 then should I assume standard cranks?

  85. #1285
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    https://www.tantrumcycles.com/outburst-options

    Brian, are these numbers still correct? I ran them through a couple of stack and reach calculators and came back with 461 reach on the M frame (435 claimed).

    Are you planning to change anything in the next frame run? Thanks.

  86. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    But...but...free beer!!!
    Free beer does have its attractions and if I was single, they seem to grow exceptionally beautiful down under. As an alternative, maybe one will land close enough to you in the meantime.

    Oh, ya, sorry about my recent absence. I've been doing research and getting work done and stuff and had to go off grid. Stuff about cranks and non boost and stuff I had to verify. More on that later

  87. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I got in two rides... now 3,722 miles from my bike and won't
    be back at it for another week.
    but at least we got BT and AT out of you, sacrilegious as it night be

  88. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Maybe. I don't doubt if I lived in the rowdiest riding area imaginable that the 160 would be the perfect bike. But I'm a little concerned it would get boring around here. By the same token, I think in terms of my absolute requirements 125mm is not going to be enough. To be honest, the other bike I'm seriously considering is 140mm, because I think a 140mm 29er would be the sweet spot for me. But if, by buying a second shock, I could ride the 160mm as a 140mm most of the time, then drop the longer stroke shock on it when I hit the party zone.....well, that would just be slicker than greased eel ****.
    this is what I really think:

    since the conventional downsides of longer rear travel no longer exist (spongy pedaling), once you go 160, you'll never go back. Because the extra travel, while having ridiculous bump eating capability ALSO has better climbing ability, due to increased geo change.

    I didn't really plan this, just realized it plaing with different travel options.

    the era of compromising bump performance to enhance climbing are gone. It's win/win

  89. #1289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    Would love to see you here - Snowmass Demo Days
    I would love to see me there. We'll see if we can make it happen

  90. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by welf View Post
    That would be me! Looking forward to receiving, slowly stocking up the pile of parts needed to build it.

    Brian - was there any progress with 142 dropouts, or do I need to find a way to boostinate? If it's 142 then should I assume standard cranks?
    welf, you will have the kit, including rear thru axle, to run a 142 rear hub.

    also, non boost chain ring, 32 tooth. (the cranks are technically the same). to make sure, I pre-assembled your frame before shipping with a BB and crank. I will post pics and results of this later.

  91. #1291
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    https://www.tantrumcycles.com/outburst-options

    Brian, are these numbers still correct? I ran them through a couple of stack and reach calculators and came back with 461 reach on the M frame (435 claimed).

    Are you planning to change anything in the next frame run? Thanks.
    maybe

    no

    yes

    I'll get back to you later with all of the above

  92. #1292
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    in the meantime, while we're waiting for other reviewers (you know who you are)

    for your amusement,another pic from 1986. It's not my fault the trophy girl grabbed me for my first win as a race engineer.New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-jagwin-daytona-w-t.jpg

  93. #1293
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    this is what I really think:

    since the conventional downsides of longer rear travel no longer exist (spongy pedaling), once you go 160, you'll never go back. Because the extra travel, while having ridiculous bump eating capability ALSO has better climbing ability, due to increased geo change.

    I didn't really plan this, just realized it plaing with different travel options.

    the era of compromising bump performance to enhance climbing are gone. It's win/win
    Crap. The real problem here is the same as everything else. It's not that I don't trust you. It's that I'm going to have to feel it for myself. I guess I keep an eye open for a demo with a 160 29er....

  94. #1294
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    I have this strange feeling that I'll want to modularize my Outburst up to 160mm someday...we'll see, as the trails here don't really NEED 160. But I've been riding a bike with 5.5" for a while now, and it's kinda nice.

    Any word on what the head angle of a 29er Outburst @125mm ended up being?

  95. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Crap. The real problem here is the same as everything else. It's not that I don't trust you. It's that I'm going to have to feel it for myself. I guess I keep an eye open for a demo with a 160 29er....
    well here is my take on this

    I am a hardtail loving old fart. stayed on hardtails my whole life because full squish with no compromises doesn't (didn't) exist. sure I like riding full squish but it is misery to climb. always...climbing, bustin yer balls, thinking...my energy is getting sapped by this suspension. nuts. well now I have a laz-e-boy of a bike floating through all the crap, yet climbing better than my hardtail ever did. best of both worlds has arrived.
    yeah on the flats and with all that squish there is a little downside to 160/170 mm travel, but only when I am on the smooth stuff which is not often. and when I need to power out of something, the bike suddenly gets more efficient...driving out of corners... the bike goes, sprinting... the bike goes, climbing... the bike flies.
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:19 AM.
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  96. #1296
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    Hi Guys! Seems all the latest re Tantrum Cycles news and reviews can be found here so thought I'd join in

    If anyone's wondering I'm the design contest winner - great to see it's mostly been welcomed positively. I'm yet to get my prize but looking forward to it!

    Cheers from the UK!

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    Interesting discussions regarding reach on the medium Frame... I find my current and much loved medium Rocky Ridge from 2010 with rough reach measurement of 385 and 90mm stem much fun to ride but a little cramped during longer rides... and my Large Commencal Meta AM V4 2015, reach measurement of 451 and 40mm stem very capable over rough stuff and comfortable on long rides but much less fun... at 435 with a 40-50mm stem the Tantrum Medium should be just about perfect!

    ... unless I'm missing something here ... or 435 isn't measured the same way??
    I'm measuring horizontal from top centre headtube to centre BB

  98. #1298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Crap. The real problem here is the same as everything else. It's not that I don't trust you. It's that I'm going to have to feel it for myself. I guess I keep an eye open for a demo with a 160 29er....
    Right now my Tantrum is 140mm travel 29er on the front and 160mm travel 27.5 on the back. When I get the 29" dropouts the plan is to stay at 160 because 1) there is no downside to more travel and it climbs great at 160, 2) I like the current geometry (assuming 29er dropouts = same geo) and 3) money, can't afford another shock.

    If it was more mountainous around here I'd probably opt for a bigger fork over a shorter shock. Actually, rather than adding more travel I would like to drop the rear travel down to the shortest option (125mm?), get a shorter, lighter fork (120mm?) and xc wheels/tires and doing a few races on it. Just how light can a Tantrum get?

    On that note: Brian, is there an eta on the 29er dropouts? 27.5 is ok for now but I miss the smoother ride and momentum of my full 29er.

  99. #1299
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Just how light can a Tantrum get?
    I can tell you exactly: not very.

    The frame weight for M is ~3550g with shock. That's about 1000g above a typical carbon trail frame (though not all of them; Spot's Mayhem is only ~500g lighter), 1400g over typical carbon XC, and 1800g over the lightest XC frames available. Obviously all of these bikes are shorter travel and radically less capable.

    I've got a build list for a light-ish Tantrum 29er. XX1 11-speed, 30i carbon wheels, 2.3 tires, dropper, carbon kit, trail brakes, Fox 34 fork. It's coming in a little under 28 lbs with pedals and sealant. You could shave another pound with XC-level kit (brakes, rotors, lighter dropper, thinner wheels) and two more with a 32 fork and skinny tires, but I don't think that squares with the bike's purpose.

  100. #1300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Crap. The real problem here is the same as everything else. It's not that I don't trust you. It's that I'm going to have to feel it for myself. I guess I keep an eye open for a demo with a 160 29er....
    you know, it's just like when you rode the bike the first time. You can't really understand it until you ride it. I didn't get the benefit of the longer travel 29er until I cobbled up a 160 version last year. The BB was too high, CS too long, because I made it out of spare parts.

    but it was immediately apparent that, besides being a monster truck over rough, it climbed better than the 125 mm travel version I made it out of.

    And it took me a sec to logic it all out. The only climbing disadvantage of more rear travel (other than weight), is the mushy bad geometry. And not only have I eliminated that but IMPROVED it over the shorter travel version.

    I'd like to make a freaky light XC version with 150 mm rear travel and 100 mm fr (or whatever). Super max geo change climbing monster.

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