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  1. #1
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    just went to 50mm stem and...

    Would like to know what you think. Coming from 90mm on gt force. Have not gotten the stem yet (in the mail). Will it be too short for the XC portion of AM - I care more about the downhill and jumps/drops (even though I don't go big, 3-4 ft max). I heard if u adjust arm position climbing is almost the same. Your thoughts..thanks!

  2. #2
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    I think you just just throw it on and then decide if you like it.

    Whether it works or not is going to depend on lots of variables- cockpit length vs your body size, your terrain and your skill.

  3. #3
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    Couple it with a wider bar.

    The wider bar/shorty stem combo will pull you back out further, as your arms will be spread more and your torso will have to come lower.

    Also, be prepared to change up technique on climbs a bit - keep those elbows low. I have cleaned every techy climb on my 50 that I ever did on my 90.

  4. #4
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    Good job! +1

    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    Couple it with a wider bar.

    The wider bar/shorty stem combo will pull you back out further, as your arms will be spread more and your torso will have to come lower.

    Also, be prepared to change up technique on climbs a bit - keep those elbows low. I have cleaned every techy climb on my 50 that I ever did on my 90.
    Hi Folks,

    I added bar ends to this formula and the two solutions provide me with all the climbing prowess required while still keeping the DH bias! IMHO it's the best of both worlds!!

    Enjoy yourself...however you choose to get dirty!!!

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  5. #5
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    Technically not a bad idea except chicks won't want to have your baby.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Pitueee
    Technically not a bad idea except chicks won't want to have your baby.
    Hey Mr. Pitueee,

    Given that I’m ancient, and was never attractive when I was young, that is a foregone conclusion that has nothing to do with bar ends! However, it does free me up to use the best technology, IMHO, to get the job done!!

    Old As Dirt...And Proud of It

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  7. #7
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    Just went from a 90mm to a 50mm stem too. I think you will love it once you adapt your pedaling up hill a bit--getting low and loose.

    As CZero said, I've also been able to clear all of the steep stuff I could do with the 90mm without a problem. And where I live there is a lot of climbing. This weekend alone I rode 47 miles that included 17,000 feet of climbing, all on my 50mm stem. No issue.

    And now a manuals are so easy, and tight switchbacks much easier to navigate. My back is also much happier.

  8. #8
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    hrmm....making me regret ordering the 85mm haven stem yesterday...
    The mountains are calling and I must go

  9. #9
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    Its all about personal preferance. I started mtb'ing on 100mm + stems. I have settled on 65-75mm stems. Personally anything less than 65mm and I felt like I was loosing a bit of mechanical advantage & I do run 30" wide bars. Frame geometry, riding style, personal preferance - lots of variables.

  10. #10
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    Going with shorter stem on AM bike is like getting wider bar it's addictive.

  11. #11
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    Personally I think going 90mm to 50mm is a bit far, not crazy, but 60mm-75mm would have been better IMO. Make sure your bar is 680mm plus or it might be too narrow, and could be too twitchy for you, but it does depend on your build and personal taste and style.

  12. #12
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    Short stems and wide bars are the way to go. You have it ordered, you might as well give it a try. Before you know it you'll be ditching your clipless pedals and defending how much you love those decisions on internet forums because everyone else hasn't tried it but doesn't like it.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  13. #13
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    The thing that is nice about ordering different stems is they are pretty cheap to continually swap out and find a length that fits you best. Much different when trying to find a size bike you like.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by womble
    I think you just just throw it on and then decide if you like it.

    Whether it works or not is going to depend on lots of variables- cockpit length vs your body size, your terrain and your skill.
    I totally agree with this...so many variables. The bike, how/where you ride,rider physiology, technique, preference, etc., etc.

  15. #15
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    Your stem size should be chosen to fit you to your bike. There is a little wiggle room for riding style, but ultimately, stem size is like frame size, or shoe size. You need to pick the size that fits your physical form to your physical bicycle.

  16. #16
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    I'd also add that some of us are on the cusp between too sizes. I'm about 5'11, and that puts me between a M and L SC BLur. Went for the L, which felt a tad big and not that nimble with the 90mm stem. With the 50mm stem it fits like a glove and is responsive.

    And I also went back to platforms for a while. That was nice. Everybody should go back to platforms for periods of time at least. Just put my clipless back on this weekend, and much of my platform confidence and smoothness transferred back to the clipless, too. (For instance, I no longer unclip for the trickiest switchbacks. On platforms, I realized I never took my foot off--all in the head.)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Your stem size should be chosen to fit you to your bike. There is a little wiggle room for riding style, but ultimately, stem size is like frame size, or shoe size. You need to pick the size that fits your physical form to your physical bicycle.
    I don't agree with this way of fitting an mtb, especially an all mountain style. Get the proper size frame and then go with the stem and bar combo to get the handling you want. I won't go over 70mm anymore and I used to ride 120mm and gradually worked my way down to 50-70mm. Fitting with stem length works for road bikes (and mtb that are ridden like road bikes) but once the trail gets steep and or techy the shorter stem aids a great deal in the handling dept. It depends on what you are looking for out of your bike but for me I want an AM bike to get to the top, be good enough on flatter single track and to rip on the DH almost as well as a DH bike. You are not going to get this with a 100mm stem. For me it's 50mm on AM/DH and 70 on XC/SS.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle
    I don't agree with this way of fitting an mtb, especially an all mountain style. Get the proper size frame and then go with the stem and bar combo to get the handling you want. ....
    Well, if you think this is true, you are a total goon. The proper way to fit an mtb is to buy the smallest frame available, and then compensate with a carbon fiber stem.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Well, if you think this is true, you are a total goon. The proper way to fit an mtb is to buy the smallest frame available, and then compensate with a carbon fiber stem.
    So is that a redaction with and edge of light-heartedness?

    Becuase I am with Travis and Dave Turner and the like. Stem isn't a fit tool.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle
    I don't agree with this way of fitting an mtb, especially an all mountain style. Get the proper size frame and then go with the stem and bar combo to get the handling you want. I won't go over 70mm anymore and I used to ride 120mm and gradually worked my way down to 50-70mm. Fitting with stem length works for road bikes (and mtb that are ridden like road bikes) but once the trail gets steep and or techy the shorter stem aids a great deal in the handling dept. It depends on what you are looking for out of your bike but for me I want an AM bike to get to the top, be good enough on flatter single track and to rip on the DH almost as well as a DH bike. You are not going to get this with a 100mm stem. For me it's 50mm on AM/DH and 70 on XC/SS.
    And one more vote for this, spot on.

  21. #21
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    Dave Turner??? Never heard of him. But if he is putting anyone on a bike larger than a 14" he is pretty much a crook.

  22. #22
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    I went from an 85mm to a 50mm a while back. I also had 780mm bars to go with it. My torso angle didnt change much, but climbing with the wide bars made it easier to breath. I did shorten them down to 740, feels just right now.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    So is that a redaction with and edge of light-heartedness?

    Becuase I am with Travis and Dave Turner and the like. Stem isn't a fit tool.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Dave Turner??? Never heard of him. But if he is putting anyone on a bike larger than a 14" he is pretty much a crook.
    Thanks for the confirmation.

  25. #25
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    thats a pretty big jump, especially for xc part of am.

    if you don't like it, try a 70/75mm

    cool thing about stems is you can buy/sell and try a different one and not be out much cash at all.

    good luck!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Your stem size should be chosen to fit you to your bike. There is a little wiggle room for riding style, but ultimately, stem size is like frame size, or shoe size. You need to pick the size that fits your physical form to your physical bicycle.
    not at all. the size of your stem should be dictated by where and how you ride, not your physical size.

  27. #27
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    Depends on what and how you ride. I have 4 Thomson stems that I switch out depending on where and how I am riding on my Reign X. I find myself running 70 and 50 most of the time. 70 if there is more climbing and all mountain. 50 If I am climbing to descend.

  28. #28
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    I knew people liked to argue on this board, but I am really blown away this time. Maybe its because I am so new around here?

    Hey, by the way, I have a bike with a 23" inch top tube. Is that good for climbing and descending? What do you guys think?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    not at all. the size of your stem should be dictated by where and how you ride, not your physical size.
    Doesn't it get old being wrong all the time?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Doesn't it get old being wrong all the time?
    dave turner (you know who that is right?), as well as me any many other people share the same view. enlighten me how you know more than all of us

  31. #31
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    I fail to see how being a tv/cable mogul makes you an expert on bike fit. So you have 3 or 4 basic cable channels named after you, therefore you know everything? Puh-lease! stay away from my bike.

    And anyway, I don't care how many people say something, or how loud they say it, if they are wrong. Lets not get started on the things that are totally out there, yet large populations of people will vehemently defend.

    And so, let me answer your question with a question, b-kul. I have a bike. It is a nice bike. It fits pretty good, but sometimes I feel a little cramped, and cannot move around the "cockpit" like I want to. Or even need to for the terrain I am encountering. (you do know what a "cockpit" is right? Well, you'll find out when you are older...) So what should I do? Get a longer stem? Or get a longer frame? Wider bars?

    I really hope this guy doesn't try to make do with a stem that is too short, and then nose case and smash his face, because he read on this forum that you should never ride aggressively with a 90mm stem. Even if you are comfortable with it.

  32. #32
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    if thats true it does sound like your frame is a little small. the point you seem to be missing (or simply avoiding because you know you are wrong) is that on a modern mountain bike a stem is not meant to make or break the fit or a bike. but keep spewing your nonsense and overused jokes about carbon fiber, i have nothing better to do than argue right now.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    if thats true it does sound like your frame is a little small. the point you seem to be missing (or simply avoiding because you know you are wrong) is that on a modern mountain bike a stem is not meant to make or break the fit or a bike. but keep spewing your nonsense and overused jokes about carbon fiber, i have nothing better to do than argue right now.
    There is a bald eagle out my window, right now! Probably about 80 yards away! Awesome!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    if thats true it does sound like your frame is a little small. the point you seem to be missing (or simply avoiding because you know you are wrong) is that on a modern mountain bike a stem is not meant to make or break the fit or a bike. but keep spewing your nonsense and overused jokes about carbon fiber, i have nothing better to do than argue right now.
    No kidding, you will argue any we-todd-did point, no matter how b-klu-less you are about it.

    Oooohhh!!!

    (the eagle is gone).

  35. #35
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    Wow, this is my most controversial post ever! Cool!
    Just read that Ross Schnell runs a 80mm on his Downieville Remedy. That is kind of long considering the current trend. Is the kind of riding @ Downieville more suited to an 80mm versus a 50mm stem? Or is that just Ross?

  36. #36
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    Ross Schnell uses that stem size because he doesn't know anything. He thinks its a 50, and never bothered to measure it. If he knew how long his stem actually was, oooh boy, he would be soooo dead!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kneetowaist
    Wow, this is my most controversial post ever! Cool!
    Just read that Ross Schnell runs a 80mm on his Downieville Remedy. That is kind of long considering the current trend. Is the kind of riding @ Downieville more suited to an 80mm versus a 50mm stem? Or is that just Ross?

    its just ross. its more of a prefrence thing.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    its just ross. its more of a prefrence thing.
    ugh, you are such a tool. Here, read this and learn something.

  39. #39
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    Back in the day - 120mm or so.
    In the new century 50 - 70 mm.
    50mm for DH / Play and most normal trail riding.
    70mm for long XC type rides where climbing is more featured.

    6'2" @ 210lbs riding a large frame with an EFTT of 24.3"
    Sometimes the bars will be changed to 711mm with the 70mm stem, but I mostly run 760mm bars.

    michael

  40. #40
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    There is a pretty long thread going right now on 29er that I started about this.

    Stubby stems.

    I've never run short stems and since short stems have become so popular I am doing an experiment where I just went from 120 to 70 with 610 bars and some 720s on the way.

    So far some things seem better with the shorter stem and some things seem worse. We'll see what difference the wider bars make.

    I also have a DH frame with a 180 fork built up as an all mountain bike where I ordered a large rather than a med frame to get a longer top tube and installed an inverted 130mm stem to get my 720mm bars out and down for better climbing which worked out really well. Descending is not a problem and now the bike climbs better than any bike I own. If I take it to a DH park I'll get a 200mm dual crown and a direct mount stem for it.

    Nothing is written in stone. So far.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  41. #41
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    i would imagine a 70mm stem with 610mm bars would be pretty twitchy.

  42. #42
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    thought this was a good place to say 4k!

  43. #43
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    34 posts in one afternoon. Nice job.

    edit: at least 34. Did you read the link about Eagles?

  44. #44
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    I run a 40mm stem and love it.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    34 posts in one afternoon. Nice job.

    edit: at least 34. Did you read the link about Eagles?
    when you got a broken back... and thanks for the link, im in the know now

  46. #46
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    also futo, how did you know i had 34 posts in one afternoon? do you track me on mtbr? how much you care is kinda flattering but also creepy.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    i would imagine a 70mm stem with 610mm bars would be pretty twitchy.
    I talk about it in the other thread but in short where I am at the moment the trails are really twisty and the quicker steering has been a plus. I'm curios to see how the 720s feel. Hope they arrive soon.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  48. #48
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    um, sorry about your back, that sucks. Take it easy.

    I just noticed your post count, it is underneath your fraggle. I looked at that fraggle a couple of times yesterday seeing as we were having a "debate".

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier
    I talk about it in the other thread but in short where I am at the moment the trails are really twisty and the quicker steering has been a plus. I'm curios to see how the 720s feel. Hope they arrive soon.
    its in the 29er forum? dont really venture over there but it sounds like a cool read and cool test you got going on

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kneetowaist
    Would like to know what you think. Coming from 90mm on gt force. Have not gotten the stem yet (in the mail). Will it be too short for the XC portion of AM - I care more about the downhill and jumps/drops (even though I don't go big, 3-4 ft max). I heard if u adjust arm position climbing is almost the same. Your thoughts..thanks!
    Yes, it will be too short. No, it will not be too short. I would return it based solely on this post before ever putting it on your bike and trying it.

    How about a thread like; Hey All Mountain guys and the one girl who looks kinda like a man lurking! For the following reasons (fit, riding style, everyone in the All Mountain Forum is doing it, etc...) I just swapped over to a 50mm stem from a 90mm, here is my body type, etc.... and this is what I think after riding it for couple of months.

    Rather than getting feedback about whether or not you're going to like what your mother's going to cook for dinner before she's even returned home from her job at the DMV.

  51. #51
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    I guess another thing to consider is, if you totally suck at riding, you are gonna suck no matter what length stem you have. If that is the case, and you just suck, get the stem you think you like based on whatever you want. Its what people with high post counts on mtbr say I should like? Great! It looks good when I take a picture of it on my bike, totally clean since I never ride? Great! Knock yourself out.

  52. #52
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    [QUOTE=fotu]I guess another thing to consider is, if you totally suck , you are gonna suck no matter what. If that is the case, you just suck,

    just to clarify...(condensed & edited version)

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    I guess another thing to consider is, if you totally suck at riding, you are gonna suck no matter what length stem you have. If that is the case, and you just suck, get the stem you think you like based on whatever you want. Its what people with high post counts on mtbr say I should like? Great! It looks good when I take a picture of it on my bike, totally clean since I never ride? Great! Knock yourself out.

    if thats a jab at me i have one picture of my bike on mtbr and its pretty dirty.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    if thats a jab at me i have one picture of my bike on mtbr and its pretty dirty.
    Your dirty.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    if thats a jab at me i have one picture of my bike on mtbr and its pretty dirty.
    Well, I wasn't thinking of you specifically, but if my post resonates with you...

    Since we have never ridden together, I will leave this one to you, dude. Do you suck? I mean, do you really suck big time?

  56. #56
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    Fotu I don't know if you realized this but we have the same post count.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    ...with eggbeaters, easton havoc stem, sunline v1 bars (not pictured), gamut guard (not pictured), reverb (not pictured), and panaracer rampages.
    Is this the war horse you are talking about? Says in the description you have Sunline V1s. WTF, you don't even have carbon fiber handlebars! A couple of months ago, you were trying to educate me on how to "properly install" carbon bars. I hope you have real experience with them, and weren't just parroting back to me some crap you read some where.


    hmm....maybe my post was a jab at you and I didn't even know it.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfox90
    Fotu I don't know if you realized this but we have the same post count.
    Fixed.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu



    Is this the war horse you are talking about? Says in the description you have Sunline V1s. WTF, you don't even have carbon fiber handlebars! A couple of months ago, you were trying to educate me on how to "properly install" carbon bars. I hope you have real experience with them, and weren't just parroting back to me some crap you read some where.


    hmm....maybe my post was a jab at you and I didn't even know it.
    thats from like the first day i got that bike. if you really want a recent picture of my bike i can supply that in a couple weeks. and just because i have v1s now doesnt mean i didnt have carbon bars (easton ea90 but they were a little narrow). how about you? did you ever have carbon bars or were you just spew stuff out your ass per usual?

  60. #60
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    Fotu's obsession with b-kul is creeping me out. Not to mention b-kul is correct on stems not being part of bike fit, but a preference.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    thats from like the first day i got that bike. if you really want a recent picture of my bike i can supply that in a couple weeks. and just because i have v1s now doesnt mean i didnt have carbon bars (easton ea90 but they were a little narrow). how about you? did you ever have carbon bars or were you just spew stuff out your ass per usual?
    touche, I guess I didn't see that one coming. Glad they didn't snap on you, though I suppose they were too narrow for you to get extreme on. So....

    Explain to me what I am spewing. Here's a rundown of my points you tell me what you have issues with:

    I don't trust carbon
    Get the stem that fits you
    People who suck can't be helped.

    By the way, your front derailer is way high. Better shorten your chain to compensate.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    Fotu's obsession with b-kul is creeping me out. Not to mention b-kul is correct on stems not being part of bike fit, but a preference.
    That's funny, he seems to be unable to let me post my opinions without starting another misguided debate. No wonder I am obsessed. Get this goon out of my mind! WAAAAHHH!

    And anyway, what are you talking about? I prefer my bikes to fit. What do you prefer? Your bikes to be cramped? How is this a freaking argument?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu

    I don't trust carbon
    This is an opinion.... which is just fine. But quality made carbon fiber is stronger and lighter then aluminum or steel. Cheap carbon can break, But I know from experience that cheap aluminum can break as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by fotu


    Get the stem that fits you

    If by "fit you", you mean fits your riding style and your personal preferences, you would be correct. If you mean physically fits you, your are wrong. Look at any bike... all the different frame sizes come with the same size stems.(other then XS) Stems are not part of a proper fitting bike, Frame size/ effective top tube length/ stand over height are what makes a bike fit properly.


    Quote Originally Posted by fotu


    People who suck can't be helped.

    Did you go straight from being born to being an awesome rider? If you did, Bravo.

    Also, sucking is relative, b kul may be way faster and have better skills then you (my guess anyway).... so you would suck compared to him.... but compared to a pro... b kul would suck

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    This is an opinion.... which is just fine. But quality made carbon fiber is stronger and lighter then aluminum or steel. Cheap carbon can break, But I know from experience that cheap aluminum can break as well.



    If by "fit you", you mean fits your riding style and your personal preferences, you would be correct. If you mean physically fits you, your are wrong. Look at any bike... all the different frame sizes come with the same size stems.(other then XS) Stems are not part of a proper fitting bike, Frame size/ effective top tube length/ stand over height are what makes a bike fit properly.





    People who suck can't be helped.

    Did you go straight from being born to being an awesome rider? If you did, Bravo.

    Also, sucking is relative, b kul may be way faster and have better skills then you (my guess anyway).... so you would suck compared to him.... but compared to a pro... b kul would suck
    Fantastic! Thank you for that enlightening contribution...

  65. #65
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    Gentlemen???...It's going to be raining in my area for another week ( fotu, there will be no eagle sightings here! ) , so I hope you guys can keep ALL this up for awhile longer (fingers crossed!)

    fotu...seeing how you have TOTALLY ROCKED THIS THREAD!!! with YOUR expertise on this matter...your help is desperately needed over on the clipless to flats thread.
    It's really going nowhere without you!

    Please excuse my meager post count... I know I'm really asking for trouble!

    BTW I have figured out my own stem issues all by myself!!...WHEW!

  66. #66
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    fotu, you never told me if you have had carbon bars or not. you can shout about me yapping about something i have no experiance with (turns out i did but whatever) but if you have no experiance arnt you doing what you were so adamantly on me about?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    That's funny, he seems to be unable to let me post my opinions without starting another misguided debate. No wonder I am obsessed. Get this goon out of my mind! WAAAAHHH!

    And anyway, what are you talking about? I prefer my bikes to fit. What do you prefer? Your bikes to be cramped? How is this a freaking argument?
    If changing your stem makes your bike cramped, Then you have the wrong size frame and are trying to compensate for it by having a longer stem to stretch you out. Stem length has more to do with riding style and handling then fit. That is why XC bikes come with longer stems then AM, am longer then FR/DH bike. If stem length has to do with fit, Then this would not be the case.

    And rather then writing some stupid comment after reading this, Write something that has bike content to it. Maybe something that will validate you opinion in your eyes. Your not doing yourself any favors by not backing up your claims and instead, trying to take shots at other people.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    If changing your stem makes your bike cramped, Then you have the wrong size frame and are trying to compensate for it by having a longer stem to stretch you out. Stem length has more to do with riding style and handling then fit. That is why XC bikes come with longer stems then AM, am longer then FR/DH bike. If stem length has to do with fit, Then this would not be the case.

    And rather then writing some stupid comment after reading this, Write something that has bike content to it. Maybe something that will validate you opinion in your eyes. Your not doing yourself any favors by not backing up your claims and instead, trying to take shots at other people.
    dont waste you time mullen. i dont think he even reads the threads, he just posts stuff.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    he just posts stuff.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xywqv1cDH8

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    fotu, you never told me if you have had carbon bars or not. you can shout about me yapping about something i have no experiance with (turns out i did but whatever) but if you have no experiance arnt you doing what you were so adamantly on me about?
    (sigh) Let's take this n.i.c.e. and s.l.o.w.

    I never owned a carbon bar. I said "...I h.o.p.e. you have real experience with them...". Thank goodness you tried out some, since you were coming talking like a fraking expert.

    If you recall that stupid thread, my only point was: I d.o.n.'.t. t.r.u.s.t. c.a.r.b.o.n f.i.b.e.r. for scary parts like handle bars. Chainstays, ok. I wasn't saying anything that needed to be backed up with experience, just sharing an opinion.

    Remember how you tried to debate how a broken chainstay was just as scary as broken bars? Hahahahaha. That was funny! Looking back now, I totally get you were just trolling me, and I was totally suckered into that argument. Well seems like some things will never change. My whole life I was smart enough to know people were effin' with me, but never smart enough to avoid getting sucked in. Sigh.

    By the way, I was never much into birds, but the Puget sound region has some pretty neat critters. Bald eagles are the coolest since they are downright MASSIVE and they are pretty common here. Last spring, I think, I saw 4 juvenile males sitting on some abandoned pilings in Lake Washington over by Kirkland. I wouldn't have know they were juvies, except the old timer there checking them out with binoculars told me.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    hahahaha fotu 101.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    If changing your stem makes your bike cramped, Then you have the wrong size frame and are trying to compensate for it by having a longer stem to stretch you out. Stem length has more to do with riding style and handling then fit. That is why XC bikes come with longer stems then AM, am longer then FR/DH bike. If stem length has to do with fit, Then this would not be the case.

    And rather then writing some stupid comment after reading this, Write something that has bike content to it. Maybe something that will validate you opinion in your eyes. Your not doing yourself any favors by not backing up your claims and instead, trying to take shots at other people.
    I don't remember taking shots at anybody, I am just trying to keep people honest. I wasn't even writing to you anyway, but since you insist on making me "back up my claims" (which are what again? ) let me follow your lead and make an argument by example.

    Why do all these bikes come with one length stem? Oh I don't know, maybe because they are stock bikes, not custom fit? How come stem manufacturers produce every single size and angle from 0 to 150 (?) and from negative 15 to positive 80 rise? Oh I don't know, maybe because there are an infinite amount of body types out there, and you cannot force people to be comfortable on 4 or 5 frame sizes? ...um...

    ...Wait, did it happen again???!!!??? Ugh! I am such a sucker. Of course if you shorten your stem and you feel cramped, whereas before you were comfortable, your stem is too short. Gawd, the clues are right in front of my face, and I just cannot resist!

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    hahahaha fotu 101.
    hahahah you're laughing! and I am laughing too! Because it is all so funny!


    (you guys think I'm cool right?)

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    I don't remember taking shots at anybody, I am just trying to keep people honest. I wasn't even writing to you anyway, but since you insist on making me "back up my claims" (which are what again? ) let me follow your lead and make an argument by example.

    Why do all these bikes come with one length stem? Oh I don't know, maybe because they are stock bikes, not custom fit? How come stem manufacturers produce every single size and angle from 0 to 150 (?) and from negative 15 to positive 80 rise? Oh I don't know, maybe because there are an infinite amount of body types out there, and you cannot force people to be comfortable on 4 or 5 frame sizes? ...um...

    ...Wait, did it happen again???!!!??? Ugh! I am such a sucker. Of course if you shorten your stem and you feel cramped, whereas before you were comfortable, your stem is too short. Gawd, the clues are right in front of my face, and I just cannot resist!

    Or maybe, they make all different lengths and rises to fit all different riding style and people likes. My bike came with a 90mm stem and I switched it out for a 40mm stem, Not because I didnt like the fit, But because shorter stem allow for a more aggressive riding style that fits the way I ride better, as well as slightly more responsive steering because the handlebars are closer to the pivot point.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    Or maybe, they make all different lengths and rises to fit all different riding style and people likes. My bike came with a 90mm stem and I switched it out for a 40mm stem, Not because I didnt like the fit, But because shorter stem allow for a more aggressive riding style that fits the way I ride better, as well as slightly more responsive steering because the handlebars are closer to the pivot point.
    Well you got me! Your story can be the only possible explanation. Let me guess, you're some big shot physicist at MIT or something. Right?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    (sigh) Let's take this n.i.c.e. and s.l.o.w.

    I never owned a carbon bar. I said "...I h.o.p.e. you have real experience with them...". Thank goodness you tried out some, since you were coming talking like a fraking expert.

    If you recall that stupid thread, my only point was: I d.o.n.'.t. t.r.u.s.t. c.a.r.b.o.n f.i.b.e.r. for scary parts like handle bars. Chainstays, ok. I wasn't saying anything that needed to be backed up with experience, just sharing an opinion.

    Remember how you tried to debate how a broken chainstay was just as scary as broken bars? Hahahahaha. That was funny! Looking back now, I totally get you were just trolling me, and I was totally suckered into that argument. Well seems like some things will never change. My whole life I was smart enough to know people were effin' with me, but never smart enough to avoid getting sucked in. Sigh.

    By the way, I was never much into birds, but the Puget sound region has some pretty neat critters. Bald eagles are the coolest since they are downright MASSIVE and they are pretty common here. Last spring, I think, I saw 4 juvenile males sitting on some abandoned pilings in Lake Washington over by Kirkland. I wouldn't have know they were juvies, except the old timer there checking them out with binoculars told me.

    I dont think he was trolling, A broken chain stay is just as scary as broken bars to me. I hope neither ever break on my bike...... Well, Acutally, I have snapped aluminum handlebars before while doing a drop off.... so I hope neither happen from this point forward....

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    I dont think he was trolling, A broken chain stay is just as scary as broken bars to me. I hope neither ever break on my bike...... Well, Acutally, I have snapped aluminum handlebars before while doing a drop off.... so I hope neither happen from this point forward....
    Oh no! You physicists are smart but you aren't dragging me into this one AGAIN!

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Well you got me! Your story can be the only possible explanation. Let me guess, you're some big shot physicist at MIT or something. Right?
    You are the only person I have ever heard associate stem length with bike fit on a mountain bike....

    http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/art...ike-stems-2492

    Note the article never talks about a proper stem length or using a stem for a proper fit. It does however talk about how stems are used to change the handling, comfort, weight distribution changes that occur with other stems.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Oh no! You physicists are smart but you aren't dragging me into this one AGAIN!

    I never read the thread you are talking about, But I know neither a snaped handle bar or broken chainstay will lead to anything good.



    Like I said, I know that handlebar side of that first hand.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    You are the only person I have ever heard associate stem length with bike fit on a mountain bike....

    http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/art...ike-stems-2492

    Note the article never talks about a proper stem length or using a stem for a proper fit. It does however talk about how stems are used to change the handling, comfort, weight distribution changes that occur with other stems.
    Now I swear you are effin' with me.

  81. #81
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    Maybe that's the source of confusion???

    When I said "stem that fit" I was talking about getting the right size stem so that your bike is suitable, shyte! that includes handling, comfort and weight distribution. ie: bike fit. Did you think I meant fit inside you? It is funny you would draw that conclusion, seeing as how uptight I am. Really, I don't think length would be the issue here...

  82. #82
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    From Gene Hamilton @ BetterRide.

    2 Things You Can Buy and Instantly Improve Your Bike Handling!

    That’s right, your bike set-up can improve your riding!

    I have spent the last 15 years studying bike handling and how bike setup effects bike handling. In that time I have kept and open mind and experimented with bars as narrow as 22″ and as wide as 32″ and stems from 150mm to 30mm. I didn’t invent a single skill or bike set-up theory myself I tired what other, “better riders” suggested. Everything I teach I have learned through others (world champions like Marla Streb and Greg Minnaar, motorcycle coaches, ski coaches, gymnastic coaches) and then personally tested out their ideas and had many of my top students (Pro racers like Ross Schnell, Chris Van Dine, Lynda Wallenfells, etc.) test these theories.

    Wider handle bars and a shorter stem give you more control. 27-30 inch handle bars depending on your height and a 50-80 mm stem provides the best handling. Handlebar height is important too, your bars should be 1”-3” lower than your seat when it is raised to optimum climbing height.

    Your handlebars are one of the main inputs of control and wider bars give you much more control (because they are more stable (think of doing a push up with your hands 21″ apart and then 29″ apart. If I were trying to knock you over would I have more luck with your hands 21″ apart or 29″?). We have all hit a rock that wanted to violently twist our front wheel to the side. Can you see how a wider bar would give you more leverage to fight this? I understand many of you have fear issues related to going through narrow trees and riding scared is a recipe for disaster but narrow handlebars create a twitchy, unstable ride. Do you want to set you bike up to function well on the 3 or 4 narrow tree gaps or the rest of the trail.

    Wider bars also allow you to keep your arms bent and chest down allowing you to ride in a more athletic, neutral position. Perfect for riding smoothly and adjusting to anything and everything the trail throws at you.

    Your stem is a not a bike fit device, it greatly effects the control of your bike. Motorcycles don’t have stems for a reason, a long stem puts you out of balance (too much weight forward) straightens your arms (taking you out of a neutral position) and the long lever of a stem more than 90 millimeters long makes your steering “flop” to the side instead of being precise.

    So for a more controlled ride go with a 50 to 80mm stem and 27″-30″ wide bars. I know this goes against tradition so please try this set up for a week before commenting. If you understand correct body position, how bikes turn and how to manual or wheelie correctly (using no upper body strength) you will love the control this gives you.

    The coolest thing you will notice is how much this helps with technical climbing, no more wheel swerving all over the place it will track nice and straight. The best technical climber I know runs a 30mm stem. I run a 60mm stem on all of my xc bikes and a 40-50 mm stem on my downhill bikes.

  83. #83
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    Im bored with arguing... Have fun with your hijacked thread.... and using your stem to make sure you bike fits you properly.....

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend
    From Gene Hamilton @ BetterRide.

    2 Things You Can Buy and Instantly Improve Your Bike Handling!

    That’s right, your bike set-up can improve your riding!

    I have spent the last 15 years studying bike handling and how bike setup effects bike handling. In that time I have kept and open mind and experimented with bars as narrow as 22″ and as wide as 32″ and stems from 150mm to 30mm. I didn’t invent a single skill or bike set-up theory myself I tired what other, “better riders” suggested. Everything I teach I have learned through others (world champions like Marla Streb and Greg Minnaar, motorcycle coaches, ski coaches, gymnastic coaches) and then personally tested out their ideas and had many of my top students (Pro racers like Ross Schnell, Chris Van Dine, Lynda Wallenfells, etc.) test these theories.

    Wider handle bars and a shorter stem give you more control. 27-30 inch handle bars depending on your height and a 50-80 mm stem provides the best handling. Handlebar height is important too, your bars should be 1”-3” lower than your seat when it is raised to optimum climbing height.

    Your handlebars are one of the main inputs of control and wider bars give you much more control (because they are more stable (think of doing a push up with your hands 21″ apart and then 29″ apart. If I were trying to knock you over would I have more luck with your hands 21″ apart or 29″?). We have all hit a rock that wanted to violently twist our front wheel to the side. Can you see how a wider bar would give you more leverage to fight this? I understand many of you have fear issues related to going through narrow trees and riding scared is a recipe for disaster but narrow handlebars create a twitchy, unstable ride. Do you want to set you bike up to function well on the 3 or 4 narrow tree gaps or the rest of the trail.

    Wider bars also allow you to keep your arms bent and chest down allowing you to ride in a more athletic, neutral position. Perfect for riding smoothly and adjusting to anything and everything the trail throws at you.

    Your stem is a not a bike fit device, it greatly effects the control of your bike. Motorcycles don’t have stems for a reason, a long stem puts you out of balance (too much weight forward) straightens your arms (taking you out of a neutral position) and the long lever of a stem more than 90 millimeters long makes your steering “flop” to the side instead of being precise.

    So for a more controlled ride go with a 50 to 80mm stem and 27″-30″ wide bars. I know this goes against tradition so please try this set up for a week before commenting. If you understand correct body position, how bikes turn and how to manual or wheelie correctly (using no upper body strength) you will love the control this gives you.

    The coolest thing you will notice is how much this helps with technical climbing, no more wheel swerving all over the place it will track nice and straight. The best technical climber I know runs a 30mm stem. I run a 60mm stem on all of my xc bikes and a 40-50 mm stem on my downhill bikes.
    But dont waste to much time arguing your point, even though its correct.... Its a waste of time

  85. #85
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    This is so stupid. Why are you guys disagreeing with me, and then pointing out the shyte I'm arguing? So this Gene guy recommends shorter stems, but there is still a freaking range, he is quoting 30 to 80mm for technical climbing!!! Guess where that variation comes from?? He uses a 60, but on what frame??? A genesis fisher or a surly or a kona or a salsa or what? How long is his torso? His arms? And is he saying everybody should ride a 60? Where did he get 60 from? Mtbr?

    And another thing, maybe this guy rides harley's exclusively, but most street bikes have the bars in front of the steering axis. And yes, you can dial that distance in if you want to spend the coin.

  86. #86
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    I guess my frustration is really all my fault. That slcrider guy really hit the nail on the head when he pegged this forum.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    This is so stupid. Why are you guys disagreeing with me, and then pointing out the shyte I'm arguing? So this Gene guy recommends shorter stems, but there is still a freaking range, he is quoting 30 to 80mm for technical climbing!!! Guess where that variation comes from?? He uses a 60, but on what frame??? A genesis fisher or a surly or a kona or a salsa or what? How long is his torso? His arms? And is he saying everybody should ride a 60? Where did he get 60 from? Mtbr?

    And another thing, maybe this guy rides harley's exclusively, but most street bikes have the bars in front of the steering axis. And yes, you can dial that distance in if you want to spend the coin.
    Yes there's a range but it's on the short end. I think if you need a 120mm stem to "fit" your bike your top tube is to short. I also think that most "bike fitters" are trained to give you the best seated pedaling power and not the best handeling and control on a MTB.

    It's been my experience that shorter stems coupled with wider bars makes climbing steep hills a little harder but has way more balance and control while descending. I feel the same way about HA as well, I couldn't imagine going back to a 71 deg which I had on my previous bike which came stock with a 120mm stem and 26" wide bars, that bike handled like crap going downhill.

    I don't think a dirtbike has it's handlebars in front of the steering axis. Road bikes and MTB shouldn't be set up the same.

  88. #88
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    Thank you for another well-thought-out "expert" opinion. Tell me, what if I am a gangly freak with short legs? Should I pick a frame for top tube length and crush my nuts, or stand over height and compensate with a stem?

    And by the way, here is 2 seconds of googleing to prove yet again how people will talk about things they just don't know.
    t

  89. #89
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    bed time tofu.

  90. #90
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    but, but, but....I'm not sleeppy.


  91. #91
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    It's as if certain people forget that the human body is flexible and adaptable enough that there is no single "proper" fit for any person on any bike, though there certainly are some bad setups. I can adapt my mtb frame to fit upright like a cruiser with my hands high and way behind the steerer; or really steep, long and low like a tri bike; or anywhere in-between. With the proper adjustments any of those fits can be comfortable and sustainable, and that makes them "fit" in my books. And yet most of the possible ways I can fit my mtb won't work very well for aggressive trail riding so I chose a short stem and wide bars that will and then I tweaked the heights and angles a bit so that I'm comfortable for long rides. There is an element of "fit" to your stem choice, but there are enough other variables that you can also control (handlebar width, handlebar rise, steerer spacers) that you can make the stem length of your choice "fit"

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    People really seem to get annoyed with long posts these days but I have to agree with Jeff on most of those things. I've been experimenting on stem and bar lengths for awhile myself.

    Only point I don't quite agree is "the long bar short stem doesnt climb" as well. Depends on what bike, other factors that affect the overall setup. Short stems generally work well for me on long flat bar or one with little rise. The additional leverage from such bars compensate for a shorter stem esp in longer travel bikes where the front is usually higher than an xc rig and makes it hard to get more weight over the front on techy climbs.

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    Here's a thought. How about everyone who ever rocked a stem 50mm or shorter continue posting here and everyone else take a pass. Although the experienced may not be experts they're at least speaking from their own observations and not some possibly wrong concept of what they believe is right.

    50mm stem and wide bars on both my bikes and I'd never go longer on anything. I go up and down everything I used to with a longer stem (and without bar ends no less) but the ride just feels right now.

  94. #94
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    If I could go shorter then the 40mm stem I have now...... I would at least try it. Shorter seams to be better for me.

  95. #95
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    50mm with an uncut Boobar (780) 19mm rise....

    Fit it, Rip it, love it... Oh and I'm 5'5" so take those ergonomics and, shove it.
    "This sticker is dangerous and inconvienent, but I do love Fig Newtons"

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    50ish mm with a 710mm works well enough for me on low-mid rise bar.

    Once move up to 760 flat or very low rise-- the 50mm start feeling a little too long. What seems to work are stems with ~35mm effective stem length ("Effective" as I have stem that is 42mm with 15 degree rise and the actual length works out to be only 35mm).

    but all this again is only for my proportion. Some may point that rollingthe bar fore or aft would shorten or lengthen the reach... sure but it also changes the sweep away from preference and that whether actual or psychological can affect the the handling esp when airing (for me).

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotu
    Thank you for another well-thought-out "expert" opinion. Tell me, what if I am a gangly freak with short legs? Should I pick a frame for top tube length and crush my nuts, or stand over height and compensate with a stem?

    And by the way, here is 2 seconds of googleing to prove yet again how people will talk about things they just don't know.
    t
    The handle bar is directly mounted to the fork, no stem.

    TT should be used for frame choice not standover and If you're gangly freak one way or another you need a custom frame built. All I'm trying to say is your stem will greatly affect bike handeling of your MTB.

    I'm no expert but have learned from my own experiences based on the recomendation from experts. I've ridden my previous bike with 120mm stem and 26" wide bars to 70mm stem and 30" wide bars and the latter was a way better handeling bike especially while descending. My current bike has a longer TT frame and have a 50mm stem with almost 32" wide bars and slacker geo and it's even better.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend
    The handle bar is directly mounted to the fork, no stem. ....
    wha?

    Of course there is no stem, its a freaking crf450. The bar clamp on the mount is in front of the steering axis. You can get/make bar clamps that move your bars forward and backwards. Why are you banging your head?

  99. #99
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    50mm 10deg rise w/ 730mm 10mm rise all mmm great! for me.

  100. #100
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    I am still confused as to why people still feel the need to argue with me. Please please please do me the favor and explain to me where we are disagreeing? Is there some confusion as to the definition of bike fit? Or are people actually convinced that 50mm stems are the best size for everyone riding "aggressively"?

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