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  1. #1
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    And I thought this All Mountain forum might be fun! Shame on us!

    Well, this All Mountain forum looks like it might turn into a SantaCruz, Turner (and a few others) bashing fest. So sad!

    For example, funny how some (not all) Turner owners who were so nice and objective a few years ago when the 5spot ruled the trail bike market have turned into major bashers of the SantaCruz/VPP stuff.

    In a year or two, maybe Turner, or Intense, heck, maybe even Ellsworth will come up with a bike design that will have a lot of "marketing hype" and then, will it be current SantaCruz owners that will start bashing on the new design, jealous that it has "detroned" their beloved bike. I sure hope not, we'll be in a constant bashing fest.

    I have to admit that I'm a bit disgusted by the whole thing and hope we will not scrap this All Mountain forum with stupid bashing or stupid "over promotion" of a specific bike just because it happens to be the bike we have decided to buy. There is plenty of marketing in the magazines, forum should be there to help each other with "somewhat" objective consumer comments.

    Anyway, I guess this thread might be a waste of many peoples time but, ho well, I just wanted to share my opinion.

  2. #2
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    Some folks are just waaaaay too sensitive.

    Get over it. It is a great forum. I ride a Nomad. I don't care what others ride. It is a choice that people make that usually has NOTHING to do with this forum or any other forum.

    My Nomad rocks. It is better than anyone else's bike. It is better than anyone else's Nomad. This is because it is MINE.

    ALL bikes suck unless I own them. Then they are the best bike until I tell you otherwise. Deal with it.



    Now who is Turner and what is her first name? I know who her daddy is.


  3. #3
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    Bashing? I haven't read every thread in here, but what I've seen is more like good-natured rivalry.

    I guess I'll worry when guys with Nomads have stickers of Calvin pissing on the Turner logo.

  4. #4
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    At least they're are talking about Turners and SC and Intense!! I have a new 2006 Specialized Enduro Expert and it's the best bike I've ever owned.

    IMO, the Nomad, 2006 Enduro (Fox DHX Air), Intense 6.6, Heckler, and 6pack are the best out there.

    The Transition Preston would be fun too.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    Well, this All Mountain forum looks like it might turn into a SantaCruz, Turner (and a few others) bashing fest. So sad!
    I agree. In addition to the bike bashing, there are those who feel the need to post that there is no such thing as all-mountain riding. I have a request for these folks:

    If you're going to complain about the use of "all mountain" as description of a style of riding, or as a type of bike, please don't bother to post in this forum. IMO, the rest of us will be grateful for your non-participation. Thank you for your cooperation.


    To me, the definition of all-mountian riding is so blatantly obvious that I don't understand how one can dispute it. But that's just me.

    Oh, and another thing. I've seen a few pictures of dirt jumping, hucking off of ladders and wall rides (on a concrete wall with a fence on it ). Now I enjoy a nice DJ or wall ride pic as much as the next guy, it seems those posters are a little confused. Those pics may be more suited to the DJ or freeride forums. Just a thought. For further clarification check out SSinGA's excellent post on our beloved all-mountain forum for some good examples of do's and don'ts.

    Oh, and another thing (part 2). Ride whatever bike you want where ever you want on the mountain. And regardless of what brand you own, your bike is not the best. .

    Thanks for listening.

    Patrick

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I agree. In addition to the bike bashing, there are those who feel the need to post that there is no such thing as all-mountain riding. I have a request for these folks:

    If you're going to complain about the use of "all mountain" as description of a style of riding, or as a type of bike, please don't bother to post in this forum. IMO, the rest of us will be grateful for your non-participation. Thank you for your cooperation.


    To me, the definition of all-mountian riding is so blatantly obvious that I don't understand how one can dispute it. But that's just me.

    Oh, and another thing. I've seen a few pictures of dirt jumping, hucking off of ladders and wall rides (on a concrete wall with a fence on it ). Now I enjoy a nice DJ or wall ride pic as much as the next guy, it seems those posters are a little confused. Those pics may be more suited to the DJ or freeride forums. Just a thought. For further clarification check out SSinGA's excellent post on our beloved all-mountain forum for some good examples of do's and don'ts.

    Oh, and another thing (part 2). Ride whatever bike you want where ever you want on the mountain. And regardless of what brand you own, your bike is not the best. .

    Thanks for listening.

    Patrick

    Ok Mr. All Mountain, sence your all fired up I got a major bash for you, well not really, what bike did you end up getting?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by drumstix
    Ok Mr. All Mountain, sence your all fired up I got a major bash for you, well not really, what bike did you end up getting?
    I got a new house.

    Seriously, Mrs. PC and I go to closing next month on a new house, and we spent just a wee bit more than was in the original plan. Hence, a new bike purchase is definitely on hold until next season. Of course, that doesn't stop me from thinking about (fantasizing about?) a new bike every day. Currently, the X-5 and 5 Pack are neck and neck for my top choice.

    I'm going to have to deal with riding my Kona Hoss for my "all-mountain" adventures. Don't worry, I put all-mountain tyres on it, so I'm all set.

    Thanks for asking.

    Patrick

    edit: "Mr. All-mountain". I like that. Can that be my new nickname?
    Last edited by PCinSC; 04-25-2006 at 09:18 PM.

  8. #8
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    "ALL bikes suck unless I own them. Then they are the best bike until I tell you otherwise. Deal with it.

    Now who is Turner and what is her first name? I know who her daddy is."


    Continue to laugh my ass off
    Intense 6.6..... Demo 9.

    Mammoth MTN downhilling - check it out
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb_m_pb0Ns0

  9. #9
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    Being an Ellsworth owner, I get CONSTANT bashing from Turner owners. You know what, I could really care less. I love my bike. I'm the one riding it and enjoying the hell out of it, not them. I buy bikes based on the ride, not the politics behind it. So, why should I really care what some anonymous person says to me on the internet? I for one have had a blast on this forum and I think there has been some really great and open discussion. I try to stay away from the "Best AM bike for the money?" threads and the like as they tend to crawl with these overly opinionated comments. If I do decide to suggest a ride, and someone comes bashing me about it, I'll try to be objective about it and see if the other person can too. If not, just ignore them and move on. No use sweating the small stuff.

    Oh, and for what it's worth, my friend and I were talking just yesterday about how truely sick and versatile the Nomad is. I'd proudly own one if I was in the market for a new ride.

  10. #10
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
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    meh. hell, i ride two bikes that either one fully built singly only cost me as much as some of the other bikes mentioned cost *per frame* and it doesn't matter to me what anyone else rides.

    i pass riders and have been passed by riders on all sorts of bikes, from clapped out junkers to high doller bling mobiles.

    ride what you like/can afford, and don't worry about what others ride so much. and yes, sometimes i need to be prodded to remember that rule myself.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I got a new house.

    Seriously, Mrs. PC and I go to closing next month on a new house, and we spent just a wee bit more than was in the original plan. Hence, a new bike purchase is definitely on hold until next season. Of course, that doesn't stop me from thinking about (fantasizing about?) a new bike every day. Currently, the X-5 and 5 Pack are neck and neck for my top choice.

    I'm going to have to deal with riding my Kona Hoss for my "all-mountain" adventures. Don't worry, I put all-mountain tyres on it, so I'm all set.

    Thanks for asking.

    Patrick

    edit: "Mr. All-mountain". I like that. Can that be my new nickname?


    How tall are you Mr. All-mountain and what size bikes do you ride? Good for you for buying a house BTW.

  12. #12
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    I've owned an Ellsworth, now own a Turner and have riddena variety of other bikes. Honestly, I think all bkes are a compromise, some give and take if you will. When there is a design by a single manufacturer that is truly better than all others then we will all be riding that one bike. I personally just choose what is best for me and I assume that others do the same. That does not mean that other people's bikes are less than mine. However, it also doesn't mean that I will refrain from explaining why I like mine better. I don't think there is anything mean-spirited about that at all. There are honest differences between different bikes that no one can deny. But, that is not putting down other owners or manufacturers. To those of us who would like to belittle other designs and manufacturers I say go to the manufacturer forums and spread your love. I hope this forum does not descend into that kind of non-productive exchange.
    "I didn't even use crutches when I broke my leg!" - Aquaholic

  13. #13
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    Timely forum I think

    many of us are near death from humping 50lb FR bikes uphill for a few minutes of descending. An AM rig is the answer.

    The good news: lots to choose from.

    The bad news: lots to choose from.

    The really bad news: I'm a few K short of a Nomad, Turner, or similar.

    The good news, there are a few rigs around that are really good value.

    And now (drum-roll) analysis paralysis.

    Jim

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by drumstix
    How tall are you Mr. All-mountain and what size bikes do you ride? Good for you for buying a house BTW.
    I'm 5'11" tall, Inseam ~33". I'm on a 20" Kona Hoss (24" effective TT). I feel my current ride is a little long, but I still have the original 110mm stem on there. I'm thinking about getting a shorter one, I just haven't had the time (or $, I guess) to get to the bike shop.

    For the full-sus I think I'd probably go for a 19" X-5 (24" effective TT) and run a shorter stem. For the 5 Pack I feel like I'd be in between the medium and large sizes. Maybe this summer I'll be able to throw a leg over one or more of these rides, that would sure help in the decision making process.

    In the spirit of not bashing the Nomad, I'd love to try one of those, also. When I asked my LBS (a Santa Cruz dealer) about the Nomad, they said to me, "the Nomad is nice, but you'd be better off with a Heckler." I still don't know what they meant by that. It's not like they actually had either bike in stock.

    Any thoughts on bikes or sizing?

    Patrick

    ps. sorry about the threadjack banzai, but at least it's still all-mountain related, right?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    I'm 5'11" tall, Inseam ~33". I'm on a 20" Kona Hoss (24" effective TT). I feel my current ride is a little long, but I still have the original 110mm stem on there. I'm thinking about getting a shorter one, I just haven't had the time (or $, I guess) to get to the bike shop.

    For the full-sus I think I'd probably go for a 19" X-5 (24" effective TT) and run a shorter stem. For the 5 Pack I feel like I'd be in between the medium and large sizes. Maybe this summer I'll be able to throw a leg over one or more of these rides, that would sure help in the decision making process.

    In the spirit of not bashing the Nomad, I'd love to try one of those, also. When I asked my LBS (a Santa Cruz dealer) about the Nomad, they said to me, "the Nomad is nice, but you'd be better off with a Heckler." I still don't know what they meant by that. It's not like they actually had either bike in stock.

    Any thoughts on bikes or sizing?

    Patrick

    ps. sorry about the threadjack banzai, but at least it's still all-mountain related, right?


    Oh dont worry about banzai, if he gets testy well bash him and blow him out of the water! HA Mario! We love ya!

    Anyway, I was asking because I have several size small frames Im going to sell but, to small for sure. BTW, check your pms.

  16. #16
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    To me, the definition of all-mountian riding is so blatantly obvious that I don't understand how one can dispute it. But that's just me.
    Hey Patrick,

    The definition of All Mountain is blatantly obvious to you for where YOU ride and live. Where I ride and live, it has a decidedly more technical feel to it. In the spring, it usually involves a day of climbing 2k+ of vert and riding some burly shite on the downhills, sessioning stuff and dorking around with my buddies. In the summer, it involves big mountain climbs and descents (but the snow isn't gone - hence me showing other recent "AM" pics that involved a drop off of a log). You may call this freeriding and maybe it is, but I think of freeriding as stuff on the Shore, Kamloops or Whistler that can have big stakes when you f*ck up.....not a 4 foot high log drop with lower consequences.

    Side rant:
    If I lived in Bend, Sun Valley, or areas of CO, AM would definitely involve putting huge miles on a lighter built bike, but my terrain differs and durability is paramount for me. I guarantee that people would change their AM bike choices if they rode the stuff I ride and vice versa......that's just a reality of living in different areas or riding different types of terrain.

    Again, that's my issue with the random internet bike suggestion about what is the best bike for "xxxxx" style. Seriously, I'm so different from so many folks with regard to bike fit, the stuff I ride, my demands on a bike's durability, perception of "heavy", etc. that I have a real hard time giving anyone a definitive answer to those questions. Sure, I'll throw out a few options if a question is asked, but saying one is better than another seems really silly unless I know the rider personally and their style of riding.
    side rant/

    Cheers,
    EBX

  17. #17
    TNC
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    Humping a 50lb. bike!!!???

    Quote Originally Posted by JimC.
    many of us are near death from humping 50lb FR bikes uphill for a few minutes of descending. An AM rig is the answer.

    The good news: lots to choose from.

    The bad news: lots to choose from.

    The really bad news: I'm a few K short of a Nomad, Turner, or similar.

    The good news, there are a few rigs around that are really good value.

    And now (drum-roll) analysis paralysis.

    Jim
    Oh, wait a minute...you were referring to carrying, pushing, and riding it, weren't you. You being Canadian and all, Jim, I wasn't sure what you guys did in the dark of winter up there when you couldn't ride your bikes.

    You know, I was a little surprised and wondered how that Knolly was going to work out. That's an awesome bike, but it did seem a little heavy for some of the stuff I know you like. I'll bet Whistler was a hoot, though. All it took for me was trying to trail ride my svelte 41lb. Bullit/Monster T combo to realize that it was waaaay too much work for a lazy bastid like me. The 33lb. Nomad has been a real pleasure.

  18. #18
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Oh, wait a minute...you were referring to carrying, pushing, and riding it, weren't you. You being Canadian and all, Jim, I wasn't sure what you guys did in the dark of winter up there when you couldn't ride your bikes.
    TNC, those canucks ride their bikes regardless of snow on much of the trails up there. Pretty f'ing crazy, eh??

    Jim, is the V-Tach your "do all" bike? If so, good God man.......you're overdue for a lighter bike!! When's Noel coming out with his Delerium??

    EBX

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    The definition of All Mountain is blatantly obvious to you for where YOU ride and live. Where I ride and live, it has a decidedly more technical feel to it.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly. I guess what I was trying to get across is this: All-mountain riding is like pornography, I can't exactly define it, but I know it when I see (or do) it. Or something like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    In the spring, it usually involves a day of climbing 2k+ of vert and riding some burly shite on the downhills, sessioning stuff and dorking around with my buddies. In the summer, it involves big mountain climbs and descents (but the snow isn't gone - hence me showing other recent "AM" pics that involved a drop off of a log).

    The riding you described sound similar to trails in my area. Pain in the ass, technical, rocky. IMO the log drop is perfectly valid. But when someone goes and builds a ladder drop and then rides off it and calls it all-mountain, well I think that's a stretch. Maybe if the ladder was built to be able to ride over wetlands, and therefore protect the environment, then that would be OK. Realize I'm being a little sarcastic. (Insert wink here) (What the hell happened to the winkie on these forums, anyway?)


    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    You may call this freeriding and maybe it is, but I think of freeriding as stuff on the Shore, Kamloops or Whistler that can have big stakes when you f*ck up.....not a 4 foot high log drop with lower consequences.

    IMO, there is definitely a significant grey area between all-mountain and freeride depending on rider skill, locale, etc. Heck, what they call XC at the North Shore or in Whistler would probably be considered hardcore freeride in my area. It's mostly about personal perspective (which is why it's silly to argue about it).


    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    ...saying one is better than another seems really silly unless I know the rider personally and their style of riding.

    Well said, I agree with that approach.

    Patrick

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    When's Noel coming out with his Delerium??
    Last I heard it was going to be out at the end of April. Which is...oh...right now. I'm sure Knolly is scrambling to get these things out the door. Personally, I'm anxiously awaiting the ride reports, even though I think it may be too much bike for me. It sure looks nice, though.

    Patrick

  21. #21
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    Got this off the NORCO web-site as I've been looking at different bikes. Thought it was probably one of the best definitions of "All Mountain" that I've seen recently:

    "When surfing really began to gain popularity as a sport, it began to fracture into various types and styles of riding. During this period a group of surfers emerged known as ‘watermen’. These riders were incredible athletes who didn’t adhere to any one style. They loved the water and everything associated with it. They would participate in any and all styles, and did them all equally well.

    As mountain biking has gained momentum, we’ve begun to see a similar trend. Out of the various fractured styles of ‘new school’, ‘old school’, ‘freeride’, ‘street’, ‘DH’, ‘Enduro’, and ‘XC’; riders have emerged who do it all, and do it all REALLY well."

    That for me describes all mountain. It dosen't matter what bike you ride, its a mentality. Its about the rider. For me, All Mountain is a little bit of everything. Some drops, some climbing, some downhill, it all just depends on what I feel like doing on a particular day. Some might say that what I ride is XC, and thats fine. Everybodys opinions vary. I ride what I enjoy and within my abilities at the end of the day as long as I go out have fun it dosen't really matter.

    Cameron
    [SIZE="4"]Go Big or Go Home[/SIZE]

  22. #22
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    The Delirium T

    will be out soon, Noels' promised me a demo ride on the 'shore. I'll post as soon as I can but....

    the VTach for me is a flawless bike. The reviews on MTBR say it all; it lacks nothing.

    The rider however, finds 46.4 lbs a bit much to ride up the shore at the ripe old age of 59.

    Like TNC, it's a lot for a single bike person to move around on. A second lighter ride just makes sense.

    I'm keeping the Knolly; FR at Whistler the bike feels as light as a feather and as stable as a rock.

    Jim

  23. #23
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    Hopefully will be ok

    Quote Originally Posted by DamoNNomaD
    Now who is Turner and what is her first name? I know who her daddy is.
    Not all Turner owners are obsessed with their frame ... I own a Horst 5-spot and I always thought that it was just a decent bike. It got to work very well only when I spent extra $$$ to get a RP3/PUSH, and it still not the perfect bike (square bumps anybody?!)

    But there is a large number of Turner Homers that are litterally obsessed with their brand, and they carried their obsession all the way to support one of themost blatant scams in recent bike history: Turner marketing a faux-bar with 1980 technology as something new.

    At the end it is just quite funny after a while you learn to recognize them as the ones always calling whoever does not agree with them names: no matter if they talk about frames, forks, shocks they are always right

    But it would be very nice if they give up this obsession ... most bikes works well, some (VPP - DW ) point to the future
    Last edited by Davide; 04-26-2006 at 07:13 PM.

  24. #24
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    I agree that the bashing is silly also. Imo, the 5-spot never ruled the roost though. Only in Homer land maybe. The Heckler was the stud when it came out and still remains one of the most popular all-mountain bikes.

    I have liked all of my bikes so far. Be it rigid, hard tail, SP, Faux, and now HL. I am not loyal to any particular brand either.

    Btw, I ended up getting a 6-Pack and I like it. It is a little tall though. I do like the bb height for clearing obstacles, but it feels different from my previous bikes for sure. My bike whoring ways are far from over.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamoNNomaD


    Now who is Turner and what is her first name? I know who her daddy is.

    that's some funny sh!t

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