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  1. #1
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    How noticable is an increase in overall bike weight?

    Hi all,

    I've been looking to move to a longer travel bike and have an opportunity to trade my Pivot Mach 429 Trail for a Canfield Riot. The Riot looks great besides the increase in weight, weighing in at 31+lb with an air shock and 33lb with a coil vs the M429T's 28lb weight.

    Would this added weight significantly decrease climbing efficiency and overall endurance? I understand that because of its intended use the Riot will not climb quite as easily, but I still want to try and keep a reasonable amount ascending prowess. Most of the weight increase is in the frame and the suspension, not the wheels or drivetrain.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I have a riot thatís 32 lbs build. The riot pedals amazing. Iíve never ridden a pivot so I canít compare on that but I donít notice the extra weight. I also have a balance that is a 33-34 lbs build it pedals amazing. Not xc bike amazing but 170/165 travel bike amazing.


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  3. #3
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    I can definitely tell when I lift the bike on to the bike rack

    Other than that, nah bro

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the info. Sounds like the weight difference should not be very noticeable.

  5. #5
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    Depends on your goals. If you're chasing uphill KOMs, 5 pounds is very noticeable and will be slower. I wouldn't worry about it for general trail riding though, and the added frame weight can actually add some downhill stability.

    My wife has a 50 pound ebike, and it is BY FAR the most stable and smoothest bike I've ever ridden, while my 18 pound race bike just bounces down the trails off anything and everything

  6. #6
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    I got me a smashy bike and the only thing that I feel slowed me down wasn't the extra 8 lbs vs my XC bike, it was the thicker casing tires (better for stonking on sharp rocks) and they have slightly more rolling resistance. I only feel this on the paved road segments between choice trail bits...on dirt the feeling goes away.

    I know for sure if I put on identical tires, it'd feel totally normal.
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  7. #7
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    While a weight difference of a couple of pounds is not nothing it is dwarfed by other factors. You could easily find that the heavier bike climbs better if it has a better suspension and a stiffer bottom bracket and rear end. I've had bikes that weighed the same but one shot forward while the other felt sluggish. You could feel it straight away.

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    Clumb a hill with/without a water bottle keeping in mind that over time that difference is even more significant. Flat and downhill not really an issue but definately feel it on climbs and longer rides.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    Depends on your goals. If you're chasing uphill KOMs, 5 pounds is very noticeable and will be slower. I wouldn't worry about it for general trail riding though, and the added frame weight can actually add some downhill stability.

    My wife has a 50 pound ebike, and it is BY FAR the most stable and smoothest bike I've ever ridden, while my 18 pound race bike just bounces down the trails off anything and everything
    This is what I find too. I have a 27 lb medium travel 29er and a 34 lb long travel 29er. The heavy bike is slower going up. If Iím hunting PRs then the lighter bike is much better BUT I typically donít care about that and actually like riding the bigger bike even on long climbing filled rides.

    All that weight and the parts that come with it make DH much better. Thatís where the PRs will come if you care.


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  10. #10
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    My suggestion is to take that Riot over to South Mountain and climb up National....then come back down. That will give you some idea on how the bike climbs and descends. I've ridden a 429T but not a Riot so my gut instinct would say "hell no" to 33 lbs unless it's a 2nd or 3rd bike to use on specific days where the extra travel is needed.
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  11. #11
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    ^ That's good advice. I notice weight in wheels on 29ers a LOT. Other than that sus dynamics, seat tube angle, etc. make a much bigger difference in how a bike rides +/- 2-3lbs.
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  12. #12
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    I put my lighter trail bike wheels on my endure bike and noticed that weight. Enough I sold the trailbike and kept the wheels...

    Weight you have to move you feel, weight in the rest of the bike you don't really notice. I carry a tool pack in a water bottle mount and don't notice if its there or not. The weight is low and I'm not losing energy moving it vs. say tires.
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  13. #13
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    The wheels on the Riot are actually about 200g lighter than the wheels on the M429T. I'm also hoping that the Riot's 77sta and suspension kinematics will help to offset some of the weight's effect on climbing. It sounds like these differences should keep the bike from feeling overly heavy or sluggish.

  14. #14
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    If I recall from another thread, despite OPs username he isn't actually in Phoenix I think he's out east.

    I've ridden my Riot with a coil on SoMo up Mormon and down National a few times and it hasn't been an issue. The bike is an adequate climber because the suspension is very efficient, but it's certainly not going to be considered a rocket.

    I've demoed a 429trail in both 29 and 27.5+ forms and I think it's a good bike. It's probably not a shock but the 429t seemed like a better climber but a less confident descender than the Riot. The Riot's geo seems much more sorted though and as a result it feels more nimble in general than the 429t. Perhaps the geo being tightened up a little bit on the new Trail 429 will close the gap in that regard.

    Honestly we're pretty lucky now to have so few bad bikes. Weights a factor, but I value geometry, efficient suspension, and durability more than 3 or even 5 extra pounds. In reference to OPs question, yes it will decrease your climbing efficiency going from a 28 pound 429 trail to a 33 pound Riot, but probably not significantly unless you are racing and every second counts.

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  15. #15
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    That will be, but let's be honest - the pivot 429T is a very short travel trail bike with extremely efficient pedaling. It should climb like a goat. But there's only so much you can do on a short travel bike. Fast, rough trails probably overwhelm it. Trails that the Riot will handle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix864 View Post
    The wheels on the Riot are actually about 200g lighter than the wheels on the M429T. I'm also hoping that the Riot's 77sta and suspension kinematics will help to offset some of the weight's effect on climbing. It sounds like these differences should keep the bike from feeling overly heavy or sluggish.
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  16. #16
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    Its probably going to be slower if you're hunting KOMs or PRs on climbs, but it shouldn't affect your endurance much. For comparison, times this year on a 200ft vertical climb over .5 miles that I usually speed up almost every ride....

    28lb intense spider 275c, 3 min 42 seconds. (Full coil setup but race tires nobby nic / thunder burt)
    33 to 34 lb Santa Cruz nomad 4, 4 min 21 seconds (full coil setup, procore in tires minion dhf and ss)

    As a comparison, of the 93 people that have strava'd that segment climb this year, the 2nd fastest time this year is 4 min 25 seconds.

    Conclusion?
    Fast people will be fast on any bike. I usually go for the nomad for super long rides cause the procore and lower pressures really smooth things out, the 170mm full coil setup helps with that too.

    Also both bikes have the same onyx / nextie carbon rim combo, x1 rd and casette... I think rotational weight makes the biggest difference. When I ran a DD tire with procore in back it was noticeably slower climbing.

  17. #17
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    You'll be a little slower and maybe a little more tired after a long climb. But tires and wheel weight have a lot to do with it as well.

    My hardtail is 25lbs on 2.3 fast rolling tires. My Riot is 33 with coils an cushcore & 2.5 tires. 32 without cushcore. I'm more comfortable on the Riot.

    I'm a little faster on the hardtail but feel the same or better after climbs and a long day on the Riot. With the Cushcore the wheel weight is a pound more and I feel more tired after a really long climb or long day in the saddle.

  18. #18
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    I have my Balance down to 31 lbs w/ carbon wheels and mainly X01 build hoping for a do-it-all bike. The Canfield suspension is second to none and I've owned them all (VPP, DW Link, Horst) so I would have no reservations about climbing efficiency. HOWEVER... on all day epics... hellsyeah you will notice that extra weight! I've given up on the idea of a one-bike-does-all and will be buying a 27lb carbon fiber trail bike soon. My Balance will go full on park bike mode with coil over and double casing DH tires when that happens. SO yeah, I sure as hell notice the diff. I was hoping to hold out for the new carbon fiber Riot as my trail bike but that will be "overbuilt" per Canfield and only about a pound of weight savings which is just not enough to justify the added cost so I've decided to look elsewhere. My Balance is definitely a keeper though; I'd put it up against all comers for DH use in the Enduro category.

    Have FUN!

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    on all day epics... hellsyeah you will notice that extra weight! I've given up on the idea of a one-bike-does-all and will be buying a 27lb carbon fiber trail bike soon. G MAN
    Ya it's funny how carbon frames are nearly as heavy as alum. I 'get it' looking at how built a bottombracket area is, no flex happening there! I'm guessing you're looking at a hardtail? Have you seen any 140ish mm bikes that get down to 27lbs? I was drooling on a 120mm Habit which was that light, but I decided it was too high-end for my budget.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  20. #20
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    I guess the heavier, younger and stronger you are, the less weight is a factor.
    I went from narrow tires on light rims to heavier, wider tires on heavier rims and started getting PR's as a result. There are certainly other factors that may be more significant.

  21. #21
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    Look at the Spot Mayhem or YT Jeffsy. Pretty sure they can come in around 27-28lbs

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim c View Post
    Ya it's funny how carbon frames are nearly as heavy as alum. I 'get it' looking at how built a bottombracket area is, no flex happening there! I'm guessing you're looking at a hardtail? Have you seen any 140ish mm bikes that get down to 27lbs? I was drooling on a 120mm Habit which was that light, but I decided it was too high-end for my budget.
    27lb will be really hard to hit for a carbon trail bike with coil suspension and gravity tires. experienced riders know what their trails and riding conditions require, and if it's either gravity tires or replacing tires every few runs and doing some walking... for sure you want to ride.

    I am riding a Santa Cruz Bronson CC that is 27lb 3 oz with air suspension and trail tires. 160mm front (it's a 170mm fork set to 160), 150mm rear. MRP Ribbon, Rockshox Monarch Plus debonair rc3. Bonty Line 30 Pro carbon wheels, XR4 2.4 front and XR3 2.35 rear. GX 11 speed drivetrain. Carbon bars but rest of cockpit is pretty typical. Built up from a frame.

    2 years ago I had a Blur TR aluminum with heavier wheels, fork and tires. It was 30 to 30.5 pounds. I can feel the weight difference, but the whole bike just works better and that's even more noticeable.

    You do feel the weight most when climbing, of course. I feel a slow rolling rear tire even more. I would take a fast rolling rear tire up a 30 minute climb on a bike that weighed 2 pounds more any day over a lighter bike with a really slow aggressive rear tire. Usually the aggressive tire is going to pay off coming back down but I think you can find a good balance - for dry conditions I really like the Vittoria Morsa. It goes down well and up way better than a DHF.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    I have my Balance down to 31 lbs w/ carbon wheels and mainly X01 build hoping for a do-it-all bike. The Canfield suspension is second to none and I've owned them all (VPP, DW Link, Horst) so I would have no reservations about climbing efficiency. HOWEVER... on all day epics... hellsyeah you will notice that extra weight! I've given up on the idea of a one-bike-does-all and will be buying a 27lb carbon fiber trail bike soon. My Balance will go full on park bike mode with coil over and double casing DH tires when that happens. SO yeah, I sure as hell notice the diff. I was hoping to hold out for the new carbon fiber Riot as my trail bike but that will be "overbuilt" per Canfield and only about a pound of weight savings which is just not enough to justify the added cost so I've decided to look elsewhere. My Balance is definitely a keeper though; I'd put it up against all comers for DH use in the Enduro category.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    Santa Cruz over builds their carbon bikes. It takes a big budget but doable to reach 27-28 lbs for a mid/long 29er.

  24. #24
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    Depends where the extra weight is. 3lbs in a wheelset is going to be a hell of a lot more noticeable than 3lb somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    My wife has a 50 pound ebike, and it is BY FAR the most stable and smoothest bike I've ever ridden, while my 18 pound race bike just bounces down the trails off anything and everything
    This deserves reiterating. Heavy frames ride better. Spring settings capable of supporting you are equally capable of making a light frame pogo, in part because your own weight isn't rigidly connected to the bike.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Santa Cruz over builds their carbon bikes. It takes a big budget but doable to reach 27-28 lbs for a mid/long 29er.
    I respectfully disagree as I came off of a carbon CC Bronson built very similarily to ColinL's bike. The frame weight diff alone between that and my Balance is 3.3 pounds! My Balance is a better riding bike with better geometry for my style of riding but I really miss the Bronson on all day epics. But... like my fellow Spartan stated... if you're young and strong, weight won't make as big of a difference. Unfortunately my job doesn't allow for the saddle time I need thus I'm looking forward to early retirement in 2019... and a new Jeffsy or Hightower!

    Have FUN!

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    This deserves reiterating. Heavy frames ride better. Spring settings capable of supporting you are equally capable of making a light frame pogo, in part because your own weight isn't rigidly connected to the bike.
    A 50 pound ebike is really just an underpowered e dirtbike. It is so much heavier than a normal MTB it isn't relevant to this discussion. And I'm sure it rides great when you go to flick it side to side on a fast flow trail or put on the brakes... heh

    Relevant to this discussion, a 180 pound rider on a 31 pound average bike is 211 pounds total. That same rider on a 27 pound bike is 207 pounds total (hah, maths). That 4 pounds is only 2% change, but I guarantee every experienced rider would feel it even if they were wearing blinders and couldn't see either bike, just rode them both back-to-back.

    Just as they would also feel the difference between an Ikon going uphill for 30 minutes versus a DHF.

    They will not feel an appreciable 'advantage' to the heavier bike.
    Last edited by ColinL; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:03 AM. Reason: maths.

  28. #28
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    OP my hardtail has almost the same geometry as the previous 429 trail. The 72į seat angle is good for flatter terrain and staying seated but a bit too steep for steep climbs. I've looped out on steep climbs my Riot just goes up.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    I respectfully disagree as I came off of a carbon CC Bronson built very similarily to ColinL's bike. The frame weight diff alone between that and my Balance is 3.3 pounds! My Balance is a better riding bike with better geometry for my style of riding but I really miss the Bronson on all day epics. But... like my fellow Spartan stated... if you're young and strong, weight won't make as big of a difference. Unfortunately my job doesn't allow for the saddle time I need thus I'm looking forward to early retirement in 2019... and a new Jeffsy or Hightower!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    That's cool, you can disagree. But a top build hightower was 2lbs lighter than my Riot. I think the Carbon Riot will be comparable. I just hope it's out by this fall. If not it won't matter to me lol. I'll be looking at the same bikes as you.

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    Thanks for all the feedback. It sounds like the climbing and endurance penalty should be somewhat offset by the geometry and suspension design. While I am a lighter rider (165lb geared), I think I'll be able to pedal the Riot around just fine. Over time I should also be able to drop a pound or so from the bike through some upgrades (lighter tires, cranks, maybe cassette).

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    This deserves reiterating. Heavy frames ride better. Spring settings capable of supporting you are equally capable of making a light frame pogo, in part because your own weight isn't rigidly connected to the bike.
    A 300 pound dirt bike rides even more better!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    A 50 pound ebike is really just an underpowered e dirtbike. It is so much heavier than a normal MTB it isn't relevant to this discussion. And I'm sure it rides great when you go to flick it side to side on a fast flow trail or put on the brakes... heh

    Relevant to this discussion, a 180 pound rider on a 31 pound average bike is 211 pounds total.
    You quoted my post without reading it. Rider weight affects the selection of suspension spring rate, but not the perception of ride quality. As before, the rider isn't rigidly coupled to the bike; your limbs are a spring layer you use to absorb frame movement. The lower the frame weight relative to the spring rate, the more frame movement you're absorbing.

    Energy loss from changing direction or going uphill, or the general issue of whether more weight is desirable or faster in aggregate, are different questions. I'm talking specifically about ride quality.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    You quoted my post without reading it. Rider weight affects the selection of suspension spring rate, but not the perception of ride quality. As before, the rider isn't rigidly coupled to the bike; your limbs are a spring layer you use to absorb frame movement. The lower the frame weight relative to the spring rate, the more frame movement you're absorbing.

    Energy loss from changing direction or going uphill, or the general issue of whether more weight is desirable or faster in aggregate, are different questions. I'm talking specifically about ride quality.
    I read it, and you're wrong.

    1. A heavier frame does not ride better. Let's say the bikes are 100% equal except for 4 pounds. Same rider. Suspension spring rate and damping perfectly tuned to the rider's preference. There will be no advantage to the 4 pound heavier bike except for acceleration due to gravity. There will be many disadvantages: changing directions, braking, climbing, and accelerating. Are we done?

    2. Going back to the person you quoted, there are MANY possible reasons why his 18 pound bike rides rougher than 50 pound ebike: skinny / lower volume tires with higher tire pressure. Stiff suspension or rigid - 18 pounds is unlikely to be a FS bike. HT maybe, rigid very possible. Stiff wheels. It goes on and on.

    Weight is not an advantage except for acceleration due to gravity, with all else being equal.

    That said, all else is frequently NOT equal in this world of MTBing. The right bike for the right rider on the right trail is the best choice, not the lightest when we're talking about a few pounds. That's the gist of the OP's actual question. Yes - it's worth it to have the right bike, even if it's a few pounds heavier than another option, assuming the lighter bike is not as ideal for the rider & terrain.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I read it, and you're wrong.

    1. A heavier frame does not ride better. Let's say the bikes are 100% equal except for 4 pounds. Same rider. Suspension spring rate and damping perfectly tuned to the rider's preference. There will be no advantage to the 4 pound heavier bike except for acceleration due to gravity. There will be many disadvantages: changing directions, braking, climbing, and accelerating. Are we done?

    2. Going back to the person you quoted, there are MANY possible reasons why his 18 pound bike rides rougher than 50 pound ebike: skinny / lower volume tires with higher tire pressure. Stiff suspension or rigid - 18 pounds is unlikely to be a FS bike. HT maybe, rigid very possible. Stiff wheels. It goes on and on.

    Weight is not an advantage except for acceleration due to gravity, with all else being equal.

    That said, all else is frequently NOT equal in this world of MTBing. The right bike for the right rider on the right trail is the best choice, not the lightest when we're talking about a few pounds. That's the gist of the OP's actual question. Yes - it's worth it to have the right bike, even if it's a few pounds heavier than another option, assuming the lighter bike is not as ideal for the rider & terrain.
    https://enduro-mtb.com/en/mtb-weight/
    From the article:
    "More weight for improved DH handling.
    For many, it sounds crazy, but a little extra weight in the right places can actually improve a bikes handling. eMTBs are impressive proof of this, especially in really fast and demanding sections their weight conveys an enormous degree of confidence and provides undreamt-of grip through corners. Visionary Chris Porter even goes so far as to experiment with lead weights on his frames for more composed handling. These are extreme examples of course, and certainly not the final word of wisdom, but theyíre food for thought in the discussion about weight."

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    https://enduro-mtb.com/en/mtb-weight/
    From the article:
    "More weight for improved DH handling.
    For many, it sounds crazy, but a little extra weight in the right places can actually improve a bikes handling. eMTBs are impressive proof of this, especially in really fast and demanding sections their weight conveys an enormous degree of confidence and provides undreamt-of grip through corners. Visionary Chris Porter even goes so far as to experiment with lead weights on his frames for more composed handling. These are extreme examples of course, and certainly not the final word of wisdom, but theyíre food for thought in the discussion about weight."
    They are using weight as a ballast. It's kinda funny that they don't even use the term correctly or at all in the article. It's a different application of weight and very specific to the type of riding. That doesn't change the fact that overall lower weight is better in all aspects. Also ballast is used in many forms of racing to affect vehicle dynamics or compensate for track conditions, etc.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    They are using weight as a ballast. It's kinda funny that they don't even use the term correctly or at all in the article. It's a different application of weight and very specific to the type of riding. That doesn't change the fact that overall lower weight is better in all aspects. Also ballast is used in many forms of racing to affect vehicle dynamics or compensate for track conditions, etc.
    No argument there.
    However, we were talking DH performance and ride quality.
    I reacted to Colins dismissal of heavier bikes being potentialy better on DH.
    If the "ballast weight" is added in right places (BB) it adds to stability and better cornering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    No argument there.
    However, we were talking DH performance...
    I reacted to Colins dismissal of heavier bikes being potentialy better on DH.
    If the "ballast weight" is addded in right places (BB) it adds to stability and better cornering.

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    I don't know if I'd necessarily agree that ballast weight adds to better cornering, rather I'd say that it makes the bike more resistant to directional changes (ie. bumps in the corner) which translates to being less squirmy. In other words more weight will make the bike less quick to turn, however once on its line it will stay on its line due to its added mass or ballast. That said this stuff has all been well researched in other fields but when it comes to mtb/dh they act like its some never seen before.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    I don't know if I'd necessarily agree that ballast weight adds to better cornering, rather I'd say that it makes the bike more resistant to directional changes (ie. bumps in the corner) which translates to being less squirmy. In other words more weight will make the bike less quick to turn, however once on its line it will stay on its line due to its added mass or ballast. That said this stuff has all been well researched in other fields but when it comes to mtb/dh they act like its some never seen before.
    Since I do not have a real life experience with this, I am only using my logic here
    Heavier bike = more grip = more traction in fast DH sections = better cornering
    More weight in BB area = easier to lean the bike = better cornering
    + the argument already made earlier by alexdi about the quality of ride

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Since I do not have a real life experience with this, I am only using my logic here
    Heavier bike = more grip = more traction in fast DH sections = better cornering
    More weight in BB area = easier to lean the bike = better cornering
    + the argument already made earlier by alexdi about the quality of ride

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    There are some false assumptions like more weight = more traction. The heavier bike will have more absolute traction but its also heavier and that added mass counteracts the additional grip. What matters isn't the weight but the ratio between mass/weight and grip.
    Also the assumption of adding more mass to the BB area doesn't improve cornering in itself. That won't improve anything except make the bike heavier, thus the point above comes into play. If we have a 30lb bike and you are able to take 5 pounds off and move it to the BB area, then yes that is an improvement. But if you just add 5 pounds to the BB, then no you're not better off.
    Some vehicle dynamics basic googling will explain a lot of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Since I do not have a real life experience with this, I am only using my logic here
    Heavier bike = more grip = more traction in fast DH sections = better cornering
    More weight in BB area = easier to lean the bike = better cornering
    + the argument already made earlier by alexdi about the quality of ride

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    More weight means less traction. This is the entire reason a Miata can out handle a Corvette even though the tires are smaller.

    More weight in the BB may feel more stable but more weight isnt better see above.

    The more mass something has the more vibration damping it hast. Comfort doesn't equal better handling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I read it, and you're wrong.

    1. A heavier frame does not ride better. ... There will be no advantage to the 4 pound heavier bike except for acceleration due to gravity. ... Are we done?
    You are. Your support for the assertion is just repeating the assertion.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Since I do not have a real life experience with this, I am only using my logic here
    Heavier bike = more grip = more traction in fast DH sections = better cornering
    More weight in BB area = easier to lean the bike = better cornering
    + the argument already made earlier by alexdi about the quality of ride

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    I have real life experience with this when I took my frame bag with 8lbs of water in it full speed down a double black bike park run. Assuming the extra weight is unsprung weight and its mass is low on the downtube you can plow rock gardens with less effort since the heavier bike wants to hold its line more. I found it didn't corner as well with the extra weight and wasnt necessarily faster, but it was less tiring plowing rock gardens in a straight line cause the bike wouldn't get bounced around as much due to the extra mass. It was also more tiring though if you frequently bunny hop through rock garden sections taking sniper lines.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    There are some false assumptions like more weight = more traction. The heavier bike will have more absolute traction but its also heavier and that added mass counteracts the additional grip. What matters isn't the weight but the ratio between mass/weight and grip.
    Also the assumption of adding more mass to the BB area doesn't improve cornering in itself. That won't improve anything except make the bike heavier, thus the point above comes into play. If we have a 30lb bike and you are able to take 5 pounds off and move it to the BB area, then yes that is an improvement. But if you just add 5 pounds to the BB, then no you're not better off.
    Some vehicle dynamics basic googling will explain a lot of this.
    I was only citing the article:

    "eMTBs are impressive proof of this, especially in really fast and demanding sections their weight conveys an enormous degree of confidence and provides undreamt-of grip through corners."

    I will have to try some e-bikes on DH to see myself...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    More weight means less traction. This is the entire reason a Miata can out handle a Corvette even though the tires are smaller.

    More weight in the BB may feel more stable but more weight isnt better see above.

    The more mass something has the more vibration damping it hast. Comfort doesn't equal better handling.
    Not sure if your comperison to miata vs corvette can be applied to mtb.
    These cars arent built to be raced DH on dirt and rocks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I was only citing the article:

    "eMTBs are impressive proof of this, especially in really fast and demanding sections their weight conveys an enormous degree of confidence and provides undreamt-of grip through corners."

    I will have to try some e-bikes on DH to see myself...Not sure if your comperison to miata vs corvette can be applied to mtb.
    These cars arent built to be raced DH on dirt and rocks...

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    Traction in turns is physics and weight has to be part of the equation. Same thing applies in offroad situations.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Traction in turns is physics and weight has to be part of the equation. Same thing applies in offroad situations.
    There are many different factors here.
    Try to go fast through a flat paved corner and than do the same on dusty loose DH corner. Not sure if you are going to have the same traction there...
    Also, 4 wheels vs 2 wheels.
    The turning happens differently on 2 wheels where you need to lean the bike.
    I just think it is a bit silly to bring cars into this argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    There are many different factors here.
    Try to go fast through a flat paved corner and than do the same on dusty loose DH corner. Not sure if you are going to have the same traction there...
    Also, 4 wheels vs 2 wheels.
    The turning happens differently on 2 wheels where you need to lean the bike.
    I just think it is a bit silly to bring cars into this argument.

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    This is the fundamental problem with your logic and that magazines, you both think mtb's have their own set of laws of physics. They don't.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    This is the fundamental problem with your logic and that magazines, you both think mtb's have their own set of laws of physics. They don't.
    So if less weight = more traction, based on your physics applied to mtb. Ever washed out your front wheel due to not having enough weight on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    So if less weight = less traction, based on your physics applied to mtb. Ever washed out your front wheel due to not having enough weight on it?

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    Please stop. You are just sniping replies now. The weight doesn't matter so much as the balance between weight vs grip. If grip stays the same but weight drops, you will have more grip. And in reference to washing out, that has to do with the rider not transferring enough weight to the front. Those are two related but different topics.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Please stop. You are just sniping replies now. The weight doesn't matter so much as the balance between weight vs grip. If grip stays the same but weight drops, you will have more grip. And in reference to washing out, that has to do with the rider not transferring enough weight to the front. Those are two related but different topics.
    OK. I will leave the debate for now. On my way to do some reading on friction and traction related to weight. It's been a long time since I studied Newtons laws.

    Not sure how the grip can stay the same if the weight drops.

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    Last edited by jazzanova; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Not sure how the grip can stay the same if the weight drops.

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    Adhesion.
    A tires traction is created in 3 ways. Friction, deformation, and adhesion.
    Friction and deformation traction will drop at a steady rate with a decrease in pressure (weight on the tire). Adhesion traction will not drop so much.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Please stop. You are just sniping replies now. The weight doesn't matter so much as the balance between weight vs grip. If grip stays the same but weight drops, you will have more grip. And in reference to washing out, that has to do with the rider not transferring enough weight to the front. Those are two related but different topics.
    Thank you. I dont think the OP wanted a physics lesson to help him out. Lol.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    I have real life experience with this when I took my frame bag with 8lbs of water in it full speed down a double black bike park run. Assuming the extra weight is ***unsprung weight*** and its mass is low on the downtube you can plow rock gardens with less effort since the heavier bike wants to hold its line more. I found it didn't corner as well with the extra weight and wasnt necessarily faster, but it was less tiring plowing rock gardens in a straight line cause the bike wouldn't get bounced around as much due to the extra mass. It was also more tiring though if you frequently bunny hop through rock garden sections taking sniper lines.
    I think you mean sprung weight...

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    In a cross country situation, you will notice a difference in a 21lbs vs 28lbs bike. With something like this, the bike that fits best with the most efficient pedaling design will be the most fun and easiest to ride. The weight difference isn't much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I think you mean sprung weight...
    Correct, I do.

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    If you are looking at Riot as longer travel bike to replace your 429 I would look else where.

    I had Riot for 2 1/2 years and to me it always felt like it rode like a 120mm travel bike. The super short chain stays makes it nervous at speed and does not feel that stable going through rough stuff. Also the rear end is little flexy. These are two things I never liked about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I read it, and you're wrong.
    2. Going back to the person you quoted, there are MANY possible reasons why his 18 pound bike rides rougher than 50 pound ebike: skinny / lower volume tires with higher tire pressure. Stiff suspension or rigid - 18 pounds is unlikely to be a FS bike. HT maybe, rigid very possible. Stiff wheels. It goes on and on.
    I had to go back to this ludicrous point of comparing a weight weenie 18lb hardtail against a big and heavy FS ebike which you know is going to be a carpet ride. I couldn't find the post easily so I borrowed your quote. Caution, much sarcasm incoming. This is like comparing a Honda S2000 to a Landrover Discovery going down rough stuff. It's totally ridiculous. And then try taking this 18lber down a chunky section... yea talk about the wrong tool for the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    ... overall lower weight is better in all aspects.
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    ... a big and heavy FS ebike which you know is going to be a carpet ride.
    I'm curious how you're reconciling these two thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    I'm curious how you're reconciling these two thoughts.
    Are you serious? You are on the wrong forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that overall lower weight is better in all aspects.
    Talking in absolutes is a little silly. Weight has it's trade-offs.

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    Hi guys, I'm new here, but a lot of conflicting opinions and I'm inclined to agree with those who say it's not black and white.

    When I started riding mountain bikes I felt so much safer and more confident on a heavier bike, as I've gotten more comfortable I have moved to generally lighter bikes, but having a bit of weight behind a bike still feels good to me.

    Darren

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Talking in absolutes is a little silly. Weight has it's trade-offs.
    I think assuming you don't have to worry about the parts exploding, lighter is always better. Unless your sending jumps in the wind, then I'd prefer a 32lb bike over a 22lb one.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    I think assuming you don't have to worry about the parts exploding, lighter is always better. Unless your sending jumps in the wind, then I'd prefer a 32lb bike over a 22lb one.
    I'm no math/physics nerd but inertia and gyroscopic forces can be a good thing as far as I have felt. There's no way I'd choose to ride a really light wheelset at a place like Whistler etc even if they wouldn't detonate.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I'm no math/physics nerd but inertia and gyroscopic forces can be a good thing as far as I have felt. There's no way I'd choose to ride a really light wheelset at a place like Whistler etc even if they wouldn't detonate.
    Riding a super-light wheelset on a light bike is a blast. When I take my XC bike out (it has a 120mm dropper), even though it only has 100mm of travel, I can pop off of every little bump in ways that are just not possible on my 6" travel AM rig. I can accelerate so much faster, there are even jumps that I can "jump" on the uphill, as it's so easy to ride the thing fast. So if you like air-time, you owe it to yourself to ride something like this. You can boost off of stuff so much easier and turn things into gaps and landings that don't seem to be features otherwise.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Riding a super-light wheelset on a light bike is a blast. When I take my XC bike out (it has a 120mm dropper), even though it only has 100mm of travel, I can pop off of every little bump in ways that are just not possible on my 6" travel AM rig. I can accelerate so much faster, there are even jumps that I can "jump" on the uphill, as it's so easy to ride the thing fast. So if you like air-time, you owe it to yourself to ride something like this. You can boost off of stuff so much easier and turn things into gaps and landings that don't seem to be features otherwise.
    XC is the new free ride/dirt jumper!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by darren03 View Post
    Hi guys, I'm new here, but a lot of conflicting opinions and I'm inclined to agree with those who say it's not black and white.

    When I started riding mountain bikes I felt so much safer and more confident on a heavier bike, as I've gotten more comfortable I have moved to generally lighter bikes, but having a bit of weight behind a bike still feels good to me.

    Darren
    I think that's the path we all take. Eventually most of us break a few parts and decide on 'light, but not too light' builds. What exactly that means for you is a personal thing.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    What exactly that means for you is a personal thing.
    So true, and as Jayem said above, some of us love the way a lite wheel/tire combo rides. I am ok having to rebuild my hub every couple years. Compared to XT my light-weight hubs are weak; the bearings don't last, and the rims get bent (and straightened) kind of easy, but it's a small price (to me) for great handling and excellent response.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

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