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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    69 - 67.5 = 1.5
    how i made it to college still remains a mystery...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mummer43
    Any suggestions on where to start as far as components go? Would a full XT setup get me there with Avid Elixer R brakes? Probably gonna go with XT hubs and mavic 321 rims. I was thinking of something out of the Fox lineup for forks and I thought a 150mm model would fit whichever frame I decide on nicely.
    why 321s? do you need that width and strength? imo for a trail bike a 19mm internal rim is the ticket.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mummer43
    Can anyone tell me, besides the small amount of travel, what the difference is between these two frames? I was set on a Heckler, but the Butcher is also very nice.
    I think the main difference is the shock rate. The Nickel/Butcher is design to mimic the shock curve of the VPP. So the Nickel would feel more like a blur not Superlight. The geometry is almost identical when you adjust the number for fork travel.

  4. #29
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    Yeah, I mean to be fair a lot of things are based on what you are used to. If you go from a 72 degree XC bike 69 degree will seem slack, same thing going from 69 to 66-67, it's surely nothing you can't ride around, uphill or down.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    69 - 67.5 = 1.5
    Thanks, I wasn't looking at the chart just going off of the number bkul was throwing out. Hence why I said IF.

    Anyways I think the difference between a 69 and 67.5 is a noticeable difference and should pretty much lean you towards the type of riding you like to do. Man that Ragley with like a 65HA feels slick coming down Again I'll say this. Anyone can learn better technique for climbing if you try, but you can't replace confidence on descents especially if you aren't riding the brakes and feeling like your going OTB every time you point your bike down.

  6. #31
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    I picked the Butcher over the Heckler and given the choice again, I would still choose the Butcher. It climbs awesomely, descends with confidence, and is one of the best bikes I've ever ridden.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mummer43
    Can anyone tell me, besides the small amount of travel, what the difference is between these two frames? I was set on a Heckler, but the Butcher is also very nice.
    Having ridden the previous generation Heckler (which I think is a great bike) I found it to have two suspension related drawbacks. First was the issues faced by any high-forward single pivot: There was a bit less compliance climbing over bumps (pedal kickback), and with the falling rate shock it was a little tricky getting it to have good small bump and big hit compliance without some serious shock tinkering, and even then it was not stellar.

    The Butcher is still a high forward single pivot bike, so it is going to have very similar pedaling characteristics (pedal kickback). However, the shock rate is going to be more friendly to setting it up to feel good over big and small stuff.

    In theory, the shock linkage on the Butcher allows for a stiffer rear end, not sure how it plays out in reality, as I have never ridden one.

    The Heckler is absolutely a capable AM frame. It is considered by many to be the very bike that defined the category when the second generation came out in 2002-2003. It has gotten more travel and stiffer since then. This bike can be hucked, jumped, etc.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    app. butcher is 2.5* slacker. butcher for an am bike, heckler for trail. think the butcher is just a little heavier too.
    Yeah, the bike really cares whether you call it "trail" or "AM." And that distinction depends totally on HA. Totally.

    Damn those friends of mine riding their "XC" angled bikes on DH terrain. Damn them! They are fouling be-uncool's lingo!

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    Yeah, the bike really cares whether you call it "trail" or "AM." And that distinction depends totally on HA. Totally.

    Damn those friends of mine riding their "XC" angled bikes on DH terrain. Damn them! They are fouling be-uncool's lingo!
    can you honestly not see how some bikes are better suited towards a certain type of terrain than others?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    can you honestly not see how some bikes are better suited towards a certain type of terrain than others?
    Academic, in-the-abstract questions are irrelevant here, and apply to marketing lingo more than they apply to real world riding situations.

    Why are you so intent on defending The Boundaries Of The Niche Known As All-Mountain?

    Are you an industry lobbyist trying to protect revenue accruing from Clever Marketing Phrasing?

    More seriously... are you completely unaware that the only thing preventing a rider from using a "cross country race bike" on "all mountain terrain" is the rider's willingness and skill?

    +++++++++++++

    It doesn't matter whether a rider wants to ride "cross-country" or "trail" or "all mountain" in deciding between a Butcher and a Heckler.

    What matters is whether the rider wants one geometry or the other, or wants pure singlepivot versus linkage-driven singlepivot.

    IMO all Santa Cruz bikes suffer from too-short top tubes and for that reason are all oriented toward "cross country" riders because they require extra-long stems in order to have breathing space while pedaling. So from my perspective they're all "cross country" no matter what they weigh or how much travel they have, or what their angles are.

    And in any case, Steve Peat could ride a Heckler OR a Butcher on most World Cup DH tracks and beat anyone in MTBR's forums riding a V-10 on the same track.

  11. #36
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    so do you actually want to answer my question or just try to be clever and beat around the bush?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    Yeah, the bike really cares whether you call it "trail" or "AM." And that distinction depends totally on HA. Totally.

    Damn those friends of mine riding their "XC" angled bikes on DH terrain. Damn them! They are fouling be-uncool's lingo!

    A good rider can do whatever on whatever bike. The point is bikes are categorized from xc though dh with plenty of gray area in between. Geo and travel are the best ways to categorize bikes. Geo plays the biggest role in handling characteristics, and head angle is the most important number there. Of course that will be a major factor as to which category best suits a bike, but it's not everything. Just look at the Spitfire, it's HA would place it solidly in the FR to DH arena, but it's marketed as a trail bike. Plenty of overlap between trail and AM in todays market with odd ducks like the spitfire.

  13. #38
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    Wholly crap....... Ash is Gary Busey!
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    can you honestly not see how some bikes are better suited towards a certain type of terrain than others?
    Agree, sort of. .

    Some designs do favor certain types of riding in the compromises they make. The distinction to be made here is that different people will prefer different setups for the same terrain. The "marketing" terms are completely valid, though. "AM" and "trail" and "XC" work when you apply the terms to a bike design and build. They pretty much fail when people think they apply to the actual terrain. Hold a race that involves equal climbing and descending on rugged, technical terrain that epitomizes what AM bikes are supposed to excel on, and I will bet you most of the top finishers will be on "xc" bikes.

    I think the reaction people have against the marketing terms is a bit irrational. They are useful descriptors of different types of bikes built. Otherwise, why even have the terms "road bike" and "mountain bike". You can ride a mountain bike on the road, and while I would not want to do so myself, you could ride a roadbike (carfully) on the trail, Actually, some people ride ride CX bikes on very legit "mountain bike" trails.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    And in any case, Steve Peat could ride a Heckler OR a Butcher on most World Cup DH tracks and beat anyone in MTBR's forums riding a V-10 on the same track.
    True, but what does he actually choose to ride when competing in a world cup DH race?

    Do you think he would choose the same bike for Super-D event that had some climbing?

    Do you think he would choose the same bike for a 4X or DS event?

    Do the answers to the above questions have nothing to do with the terrain/course?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    Academic, in-the-abstract questions are irrelevant here, and apply to marketing lingo more than they apply to real world riding situations.

    Why are you so intent on defending The Boundaries Of The Niche Known As All-Mountain?

    Are you an industry lobbyist trying to protect revenue accruing from Clever Marketing Phrasing?

    More seriously... are you completely unaware that the only thing preventing a rider from using a "cross country race bike" on "all mountain terrain" is the rider's willingness and skill?

    +++++++++++++

    It doesn't matter whether a rider wants to ride "cross-country" or "trail" or "all mountain" in deciding between a Butcher and a Heckler.

    What matters is whether the rider wants one geometry or the other, or wants pure singlepivot versus linkage-driven singlepivot.

    IMO all Santa Cruz bikes suffer from too-short top tubes and for that reason are all oriented toward "cross country" riders because they require extra-long stems in order to have breathing space while pedaling. So from my perspective they're all "cross country" no matter what they weigh or how much travel they have, or what their angles are.

    And in any case, Steve Peat could ride a Heckler OR a Butcher on most World Cup DH tracks and beat anyone in MTBR's forums riding a V-10 on the same track.
    Your right about the short top tubes on SC bikes,after that you lost me.....

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yippee_Ki_YayMF
    Wholly crap....... Ash is Gary Busey!
    I was gonna say, Bobby Brown, but, Busey will do!
    I give positive rep all around but then I get negative rep from all the clowns.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99
    A good rider can do whatever on whatever bike. The point is bikes are categorized from xc though dh with plenty of gray area in between.
    And the REAL point is that such categorization is MARKETING.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul
    so do you actually want to answer my question or just try to be clever and beat around the bush?
    You haven't asked me a question, so I am guessing you're talking to someone else.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yippee_Ki_YayMF
    Wholly crap....... Ash is Gary Busey!
    b-kul,

    Why do you use several handles?

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    True, but what does he actually choose to ride when competing in a world cup DH race?

    Do you think he would choose the same bike for Super-D event that had some climbing?

    Do you think he would choose the same bike for a 4X or DS event?

    Do the answers to the above questions have nothing to do with the terrain/course?
    So what does an "All Mountain" TRAIL look like? How many riding areas have "All Mountain" trails?

    Are they "All Mountain" trails ONLY if they are designated as such?

    Who gets to do the designation?

    And why didn't Richard Cunningham's "Black Diamond" handle take off and replace FR/DH?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    You haven't asked me a question, so I am guessing you're talking to someone else.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...06#post7976706
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    b-kul,

    Why do you use several handles?
    you totally caught me. brilliant detective work. also, you say several, as in more than two. can you inform me of my other names as i seem to have forgotten.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash T. Abula
    b-kul,

    Why do you use several handles?
    you totally caught me. brilliant detective work.
    Santa Cruz Nomad Carbon - Specialized Demo 8 II
    YKYMF - YouTube Channel - AM/DH Vids

  25. #50
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    brilliant detective work. i have been caught!

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