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  1. #1
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    Giant Reign VS. Maverick ML8 design pro's and con's?

    AM fella's

    I'm thinking about trying out a new bike. I'm am really leaning towards the new Reign, but have never had any experience with Giant bikes. A few guys here ride ML8's and love them. My question is can anyone compare their suspension designs? The Mav uses "parallel path" tech which gives it a rearward axle path. From what I can tell the maestro suspension utilizes a vertical axle path. How does this relate to real world riding? I'm coming off a Heckler and ride loose, rocky terrain. Any thoughts on Maestro suspension would be appreciated as I have not found much info!

  2. #2
    squish is good
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    I ride an 05 Reign, but to my knowlege the suspension is still the same, which isn't a bad thing! I love it, it pedals fantastic when in the saddle and is super active over turrain. I've heard some say that it stiffens under pedaling, I can't feel it if it does, and it doesn't stiffen under braking at all. I do beleive it has a rearward axle path through part of its stroke and it is fantastic on square edge bumps. The suspension gurus will be able to tell you more about what each does.

    While I think the DUC32 is awesome I'm not sold on the Maverick-only rear strut design on the ML8. I like swapping between a coil and air shock on my Reign for different styles of riding and I like the option of upgrading or having a spare in case something goes wrong. Maverick bikes are cool, but they are definitely a different kind of bike compared to everything else out there.

  3. #3
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    Yeah, that's right. Just look also at the overall design. It's a matter of taste but I reckon Giant Reign is better in design, it looks better at any angle, what a handsome bike. And for the Maverick? You decide yourself.

  4. #4
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron81fire
    From what I can tell the maestro suspension utilizes a vertical axle path.
    No, it doesn't. I sold giants for a few years, and the maestro and pretty much any other suspension does NOT move vertically. If it did, there would be massive chain torque and feedback. This is not to say that it's a perfect arc, that's why there are two links, but during the suspension's travel it's always rotating about a certain point (hence the name virutal pivot, not to be confused with VPP which is a specific virtual pivot).

    BTW, Giant is a good company and they stand up for their products. Maverick also stands up for their products but they also require the owner to do much of their own R and D work and come up with solutions, for their forks and so forth.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  5. #5
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    I ride a Heckler and my buddy I ride with has an ML8, so this may have relevance to your questions. What I have noticed is that he is much faster in the corners and more technical stuff. He crushes me on the climbs, but that could be more of a conditioning thing. On the other side, I usually pass him on the straight single track and fireroad downhills. I am a much larger guy than he is, so it may have some bearing on my observations.

  6. #6
    TNC
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    I've been holding back from responding on this as the OP is at the same shop as me, and we ride together. I've already given him my .02, but I wanted to see some other observations about these bikes after a few days. We sell Maverick, and overall I think it's a great bike. However, I am not crazy about the DUC 32 fork. It's a very low axle to crown design which translates into a low ride height for the front. My little RS Revelation 5" fork has a taller AtoC than the 6" DUC. Compared to Aaron's Heckler/Pike setup, the ML8 is a very front tippy bike IMO...due in great part to that short fork. Now...one can install another fork on the ML8, but then that gives away any weight savings the ML8 offers IMO.

    As Floggus mentioned about his friend's ML8, they do corner extremely well...partly due to that low front end. But Aaron is definitely an aggressive rider, and I don't think his willingness to drop down into nasty descents will be a good match to an ML8/DUC 32. And as I mentioned, if you're not going to use the DUC 32 then another frame brand and design might be a better pick for a rider like this.

    Now...one of the other guys at the shop has an ML8, and he absolutely flies on the thing. But he's more of a speed oriented rider than a gnarly terrain whore like Aaron, so the ML8 fits his preferences well. I think the ML8/DUC 32 is a great choice for speed riders and climbers who put more priority on going fast...like riders who are just coming from a true XC racing environment and bike and want a longer travel, more capable trail bike...but not as concerned about bombing down a rocky, ledgy, treacherous trail with abandon.

    Aaron has a Session 77 for the true FR stuff that he is quite capable of, but he wants a lighter, more pedal efficient trail bike in the 5-6 inch range. The newer, lighter version of the regular Reign would fit him better than the ML8 IMO...as well as a few other choices we have through the shop. Oh, one other caveat. Aaron is very capable of breaking things...like a wimpy bike frame and wimpy components...so that should be taken into consideration...LOL!

  7. #7
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    Reign X, definitely. I wouldn't want to spend double on a frame that isn't any better and is a whole lot uglier.

  8. #8
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    The Mav is a long-legged trail bike.
    The Reign is built a bit more burly than the Mav.

  9. #9
    squish is good
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    Some more stuff to chew on...

    original site

    The Virtual Pivot Point (or VPP) is a linkage - currently owned by Santa Cruz (who licenses the design to Intense) - designed to activate suspension depending on the input it receives. Yeti Cycles have created a unique rail system to eliminate pedal jacking . The DW-Link is another design (also licensed to Iron Horse & Independent Fabrications) in addition to Giant's Maestro. Maestro utilizes four strategically positioned pivot points (eight total bearings) and two linkages to create a floating pivot point that improves pedalling efficiency by counteracting forces that would otherwise create suspension compression (pedal-bob). Maestro also features suspension sensitivity even under harsh braking, with no loss in braking or traction.

    To define a VPP/DW-link/Maestro suspension design, imagine a line that follows the path the rear axle takes as it moves through its travel and continue it into a complete circle. The center of the circle is the pivot point, being a virtual point (and not an actual pivot on the bicycle). It can either be a fixed point, or one that moves around as the suspension compresses, depending on the design.

    The VPP family of suspension systems are in fact 4-bar designs with relatively shorter links than a conventional 4-bar.
    And to illustrate this is an example of a Santa Cruz VPP on a Blur frame



    You can see that as the suspension compresses the pivot point changes. Keep in mind this is the Santa Cruz system, not Maestro, though they both work on the same principles there are differences in how they actually work. I've been searching for a good illustration of the Maestro system but haven't found one yet.

    Here is some really good info if you don't mind digging into the technical side of it.

    Anyways I once again agree with TNC. If you want something burly to go downhill fast get the Reign, if you want a quick long travel XC bike, get the Maverick.

  10. #10
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    guys,

    Thanks for the replies...very informative. I'm not really leaning toward a Mav...I was more interested in the way their design worked compared to the maestro as I have seen my fellow riders spin up some nasty rough, loose climbs that I seem to hang up on with my heckler. TNC is correct...once we head back down that fancy suspension doesn't help them much!! I just read MBA review of new Trek Fuel EX9 with their new design. They raved about it's handling and small bump capabilities. I may have to wait awhile and see how that new Remedy coming out stacks up as well! I might even just keep the ol' Heckler and build up a "lighter" trail bike for when my XC side comes out, but dang it's hard to roll by a nice jump or drop. Now if I can just finish a ride without exploding a tire, FYI don't run panaracer rampages tubeless, it's like playing with a live grenade and I have a jacked up knee to prove it (last day of rehab yeehaw!) Thanks again!

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