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  1. #1
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    DHX 5.0 on the Remedy?

    Looks like the remedy is under shocked in the rear. Do you guys think upgrading to a dhx 5.0 coil would be a good idea? How do I go about determining what spring size or strength I should order?
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  2. #2
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    Im 200 pounds and 5'9
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    Before I go in depth, what problem exactly are you having with the stock rp23? Are you bottoming out constantly? That was my problem, and I'll assume its yours until you say otherwise.

    I've seen a couple DHX5.0 coils on remedy's, which sounds pretty rad to me. But, and this is a big but:

    The remedy is designed around an airshock. The bike has a regressive rate to make the stroke fairly linear (with a progressive air shock) putting on a coil means the bike is going to bottom out even easier then before. You can compensate for this by adding alot more compression damping then you had before, but then the shock is gonna be overly harsh on the little stuff. You can just add alot of BO resistance, but I don't know if it will be enough. You might be able to convince FCLinder to tell you whether or not its a a good idea because he had one and he knows his sh1t. I think ideal setup would be a pushed DHX5.0. Failing that, I think your next best option is pushing the rp23 you have on there already. I would probably push the RP3 before going to a DHX5.0 by itself though, because linear shock + regressive rate suspension = bottom out heaven.

    One thing you could try before doing resorting to throwing hundreds of dollars at the problem is put a little oil in the air can. This will have the effect of limiting the air volume in the shock, causing the spring to be a bit more progressive. You could also consider a bigger BO bumper.

    I just kind of rambled there, most of my advice had to do with bottom out while maintaining the first part of the stroke, so if thats NOT what you were talking about, then feel free to elaborate.

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    Really great advice. I feel I learned something today. I am going to contact push before I do anything. I just got this bike and havent personally experienced any of these symptoms yet but im preparing before I end up with a cracked frame on my new bike like the guy in the trek forum has 2 times now. Of course im not sure I go as big as he does, but im not a small guy at 200 pounds either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowhuntmaster
    Really great advice. I feel I learned something today. I am going to contact push before I do anything. I just got this bike and havent personally experienced any of these symptoms yet but im preparing before I end up with a cracked frame on my new bike like the guy in the trek forum has 2 times now. Of course im not sure I go as big as he does, but im not a small guy at 200 pounds either.
    I wouldn't worry about it too much. Justin rides pretty fast and hard! I ride a DH bike when I go ride with him

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    I posted this on the trek forum and someone suggested rubberbands would have the same effect as the oil with less mess. What do you think of this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowhuntmaster
    I posted this on the trek forum and someone suggested rubberbands would have the same effect as the oil with less mess. What do you think of this?
    Uhhhhh, let me look at that post. I can't think of any application that you could use rubber bands instead of oil....

    But if you're worried about oil mess / not a DIY type of person, I would strongly recommend push. DIY requires lots of confidence and skill, and for peace of mind and a superior setup, Push would probably be a better option.

  8. #8
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    William, maybe you're thinking of the RP with the regular sized can. The extra volume can is actually a secondary chamber that is attached on the outside and linked to the internal chamber through a tiny hole. The external chamber is hold in place by a C-clip. You stuff that chamber with something that doesn't compress, and you don't even need to open the internal chamber. You can only put oil on the internal chamber. See the link I gave on this topic on the Trek forum for the original topic for the mod (for a DHX air).

    This mod even the most mechanically challenged can do it in 5 minutes tops. I took (almost) more time to inflate the shock than to perform the mod.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowhuntmaster
    Really great advice. I feel I learned something today. I am going to contact push before I do anything. I just got this bike and havent personally experienced any of these symptoms yet but im preparing before I end up with a cracked frame on my new bike like the guy in the trek forum has 2 times now. Of course im not sure I go as big as he does, but im not a small guy at 200 pounds either.
    I wouldn't mess with it based on a couple internet stories(not that I doubt those people have had the problem). The first step would be to ride it and get familiar with it. You may find out it is nearly perfect for the riding you are doing! Or you may find out that it is lacking in some other way. After you've become familiar with it, I suggest you call Push and tell them the problems you are having and let them solve it. I am sure they will!

    While you are first riding it, the occasional soft bottom out is not a concern. Frequent hard bottom outs (with the clunk sound) are what I would be concerned with. You may not experience either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    While you are first riding it, the occasional soft bottom out is not a concern. Frequent hard bottom outs (with the clunk sound) are what I would be concerned with. You may not experience either.
    Sorry, but I have to disagree with that. Not in principle though. Let me explain.

    I never felt a hard bottom out with my Remedy, or heard any clunck noise. Yet, I've bottomed it out hard enough to knock the O-ring out of the shaft. That's about 3mm past the bottom out point with the shock deflated, which means that I'm going hard on the bottom out bumper.

    Although the occasional soft bottom out is safe, the point is that you may be bottoming hard without feeling it. Which I think is the case when the O-ring is knocked out of the shaft.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    Sorry, but I have to disagree with that. Not in principle though. Let me explain.

    I never felt a hard bottom out with my Remedy, or heard any clunck noise. Yet, I've bottomed it out hard enough to knock the O-ring out of the shaft. That's about 3mm past the bottom out point with the shock deflated, which means that I'm going hard on the bottom out bumper.

    Although the occasional soft bottom out is safe, the point is that you may be bottoming hard without feeling it. Which I think is the case when the O-ring is knocked out of the shaft.
    Well you didn't hear the clunk, but you had a hard bottom out. Since the O-ring was knocked off the shaft thats obviously what is happening. Not a good thing!

    But you should have a soft bottom out 1 or 2 times a ride. Or, perhaps a better way of saying that would be, "You should be getting full travel once a ride"

  12. #12
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    On piggyback shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    Before I go in depth, what problem exactly are you having with the stock rp23? Are you bottoming out constantly? That was my problem, and I'll assume its yours until you say otherwise.

    I've seen a couple DHX5.0 coils on remedy's, which sounds pretty rad to me. But, and this is a big but:

    The remedy is designed around an airshock. The bike has a regressive rate to make the stroke fairly linear (with a progressive air shock) putting on a coil means the bike is going to bottom out even easier then before. You can compensate for this by adding alot more compression damping then you had before, but then the shock is gonna be overly harsh on the little stuff. You can just add alot of BO resistance, but I don't know if it will be enough. You might be able to convince FCLinder to tell you whether or not its a a good idea because he had one and he knows his sh1t. I think ideal setup would be a pushed DHX5.0. Failing that, I think your next best option is pushing the rp23 you have on there already. I would probably push the RP3 before going to a DHX5.0 by itself though, because linear shock + regressive rate suspension = bottom out heaven.

    One thing you could try before doing resorting to throwing hundreds of dollars at the problem is put a little oil in the air can. This will have the effect of limiting the air volume in the shock, causing the spring to be a bit more progressive. You could also consider a bigger BO bumper.

    I just kind of rambled there, most of my advice had to do with bottom out while maintaining the first part of the stroke, so if thats NOT what you were talking about, then feel free to elaborate.
    I don't know, William...I think that most piggyback shocks with good bottomout tuning elements are usually better choices for longer travel AM bikes like the Remedy. I'm not speaking from experience on the Remedy, but this is a good general rule for most bikes that fit the Remedy's performance profile. The DHX Air was probably the exception to that general rule. Inline shocks traditionally must give up something on either end of small bump plushness to big hit control/bottomout. I'm not saying they're bad, but there are usually not enough tuning elements on inline shocks to cover the longer travel demands that bikes like this require for optimum performance. The coil characteristics you mention are generally true, but you can offset the bottomout performance to a large degree with the piggyback tuning. Then you also have to consider air shocks like the Manitou ISX-6 which takes air shocks to whole other level of performance and tuning IMO. PUSH is a good source for optimizing inline shock performance to a given bike and rider. I just a read a test on the new Trek Session 88 in Mountainbike magazine (not MBA), and Trek claims that Fox custom tunes the DHX coil to their specifications. This is the optimum way to do suspension and something we may see more of as bikes get more sophisticated. However, for off-the-shelf quality suspension components like the RP23 and DHX series, I still contend that piggyback models with full tuning elements like the 5.0 version will usually offer more performance tuning for bigger hit AM bikes. I tend to think many manufacturers are applying inline shocks to bikes like these for the purposes of weight and the economic bottom line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    I don't know, William...I think that most piggyback shocks with good bottomout tuning elements are usually better choices for longer travel AM bikes like the Remedy. I'm not speaking from experience on the Remedy, but this is a good general rule for most bikes that fit the Remedy's performance profile. The DHX Air was probably the exception to that general rule. Inline shocks traditionally must give up something on either end of small bump plushness to big hit control/bottomout. I'm not saying they're bad, but there are usually not enough tuning elements on inline shocks to cover the longer travel demands that bikes like this require for optimum performance. The coil characteristics you mention are generally true, but you can offset the bottomout performance to a large degree with the piggyback tuning. Then you also have to consider air shocks like the Manitou ISX-6 which takes air shocks to whole other level of performance and tuning IMO. PUSH is a good source for optimizing inline shock performance to a given bike and rider. I just a read a test on the new Trek Session 88 in Mountainbike magazine (not MBA), and Trek claims that Fox custom tunes the DHX coil to their specifications. This is the optimum way to do suspension and something we may see more of as bikes get more sophisticated. However, for off-the-shelf quality suspension components like the RP23 and DHX series, I still contend that piggyback models with full tuning elements like the 5.0 version will usually offer more performance tuning for bigger hit AM bikes. I tend to think many manufacturers are applying inline shocks to bikes like these for the purposes of weight and the economic bottom line.
    TNC I generally agree with you. Its pretty obvious, more tuning options mean the shock will more likely be able to be tuned to your preferences.

    However, in this case you have to remember the OP has no experiences with the problems we are all trying to fix. Many here, myself included, have been able to get satisfactory performance from a simple inline shock. If the OP came here with a complaint about his set up, we could say why we think its happening and likely solutions. But, we have a new owner of a bike, trying to solve a problem that has only surfaced from one of the most extreme uses I've seen of the bike. Its possible that the OP uses it for a long travel aggressive xc bike, and may be quite happy with the performance of his shock after its set up properly for him, or slightly tuned by Push.

    We seem to be getting closer to the Homers where we immediately recommend a CCDB for any small shock problem... LOL

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    TNC, I haven't had time to read through your entire post, but I will shortly. The reason I don't recommend a piggy back air shock for the remedy is because the only one available is the DHX Air. The evolver doesn't fit (you'd have to file away the eyelets a little bit to get it to fit, which might be fine, but then again, it might not. Not worth the risk) and the roco WC A doesn't come in the right size.

    In my experience, a bike designed to have a regressive rate to make an air shock linear tends to not be fantastic with a coil. Yes you can tune the bottom out controlling how progressive it is, but you can still end up with some weird leverage/spring curves. I don't know... If it were me, I'd be riding the exact same stuff as Jeng (I ride the same hits as him now, and I wouldn't stop on a remedy) and I would probably switch to a DHX5Coil in pretty short order, but I'm fairly adept at tuning a DHX5, I know what I want it to do, and I know what I want my suspension setup to be like. The OP is maybe not pushing his bike quite as hard as Jeng, the dude is pretty quick (no offense OP!).

    I wouldn't worry about it too much for now OP. Ride the bike for awhile. If you're constantly bottoming out, think about pushing your current shock, or getting a DHX 5 and having IT pushed and set up for you.

  15. #15
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    William, we sell Trek, but we haven't had this model Remedy. What's the difference in shock eyelets that would prohibit the ISX fitment...and of course I'm not referring to the different sizing standard of the bushings. Is there something more unusual about the shock mounts on the Remedy?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    TNC I generally agree with you. Its pretty obvious, more tuning options mean the shock will more likely be able to be tuned to your preferences.

    However, in this case you have to remember the OP has no experiences with the problems we are all trying to fix. Many here, myself included, have been able to get satisfactory performance from a simple inline shock. If the OP came here with a complaint about his set up, we could say why we think its happening and likely solutions. But, we have a new owner of a bike, trying to solve a problem that has only surfaced from one of the most extreme uses I've seen of the bike. Its possible that the OP uses it for a long travel aggressive xc bike, and may be quite happy with the performance of his shock after its set up properly for him, or slightly tuned by Push.

    We seem to be getting closer to the Homers where we immediately recommend a CCDB for any small shock problem... LOL

    This is a really great discussion. Meeting of the minds on this issue is exactly what I was looking for. Im really learning alot about rear shocks in this process and feel much better prepared to take care of my equiptment now. I hate feeling like I know less then they guy who is charging me to fix my problem (assuming I ever have a problem.) Your probably right that i may never have an issue with the current shock but if I do, I know what to do. Had I never posted this thread I would have never found out so much about the difference between a coil and air shock. Thanks to all who have posted.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    William, we sell Trek, but we haven't had this model Remedy. What's the difference in shock eyelets that would prohibit the ISX fitment...and of course I'm not referring to the different sizing standard of the bushings. Is there something more unusual about the shock mounts on the Remedy?
    I'm the one that has first hand experience on this. The only way that it looked possible to mount this shock on the Remedy was with the piggyback side up.

    The problem is that the spacing of the rocker link, which is only 22mm, is less than the shaft of the ISX, and the distance from the shock's eyelet to the shaft is too short. It means that the shaft touches the rocker link preventing it from being mounted. You can mount it, but without bushings. There is only about 1mm slackness without bushings. To fit it with the bushings, you would have to shave the bottom of the rocker link about 2mm, which comes too close to the mounting holes.

    Check the awful pictures here:
    DHX AIR on a Remedy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowhuntmaster
    This is a really great discussion. Meeting of the minds on this issue is exactly what I was looking for. Im really learning alot about rear shocks in this process and feel much better prepared to take care of my equiptment now. I hate feeling like I know less then they guy who is charging me to fix my problem (assuming I ever have a problem.) Your probably right that i may never have an issue with the current shock but if I do, I know what to do. Had I never posted this thread I would have never found out so much about the difference between a coil and air shock. Thanks to all who have posted.
    You will always know less then the guys at push!

    Heres the thing: I completely understand wanting to know how stuff works (I'm a mechanic and I always want to do everything myself) but the guys at push will always know way more then me. Its their job to. Heres my advice on shocks: You can learn enough to get by and set the shock up reasonably well how you want it to, and not have to spend a couple hundo on custom tuning, or you can say fuggit and get a much better then you could ever do custom tune. Especially with an inline shock, where the external adjustments are pretty limited. The guys at push can do a lot. I'd ride the shock for now, and then consider pushing it down the line if you feel like the bump absorbtion isn't there, or you're bottoming out alot, or you're blowing through travel.

    While for the most part I think its a good idea to know what you want and how your stuff works so nobody fycks you over, Push doesn't really do that (get their highest end option, and they'll custom shim it for you) at all, they're in the business of making your suspension feel better, and they're as successful as they are because they're damn good at it and don't try and con you. Push is very very good.

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    Oh yea, I didnt mean I wanted to be as smart as them.... for example i didnt even know what push was before I started this and the other discussion in the trek thread. A knowledge of good options like push is what I was getting at.
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  20. #20
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    I agree with what William42 wrote in his original post. If the Remedy goes digressive at endstroke to offset air ramp up, the air is the better choice if you can get it to work properly. Coil will have a supportive midstroke, but it will need a bit more spring for bigger hits. (my Enduro is digressive in the last 20% of the stoke, the exact starting point of the BO bumper on my coil it works well )

    TNC, the problem with inline shocks is that they are all focused on the no pedal bob thing rather than a solid performing progressive shim stack. For example the damping on the RP23 is digressive I also think they are getting specced on bigger bikes as the high volume sleeve makes them feel plush on the showroom floor and parking lot, or that expectations are that the rider won't push the bike to an advanced level (perhaps that is actually common)

    The Monarch looks interesting in that the "platform" is adding preload to a spring, and with the RS adapter, the IFP pressure can be changed.

    I wish that inline air shocks provided a real BO bumper.

    P

  21. #21
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    Ahhh...I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    I'm the one that has first hand experience on this. The only way that it looked possible to mount this shock on the Remedy was with the piggyback side up.

    The problem is that the spacing of the rocker link, which is only 22mm, is less than the shaft of the ISX, and the distance from the shock's eyelet to the shaft is too short. It means that the shaft touches the rocker link preventing it from being mounted. You can mount it, but without bushings. There is only about 1mm slackness without bushings. To fit it with the bushings, you would have to shave the bottom of the rocker link about 2mm, which comes too close to the mounting holes.

    Check the awful pictures here:
    DHX AIR on a Remedy?
    I don't know why frame manufacturers don't think ahead on a minor issue like this. I mean how hard is it at the time of manufacture to make your links and other clearance issues with just a little fudge factor to accomodate a different shock. Now I realize that most manufacturers don't give a rat's pitooty about a consumer doing something that they didn't think of, but I think it's better to give yourself some wiggle room. Thanks for the pics and description.

  22. #22
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    i don't completely understand everything said above as i'm not extremely technically inclined with suspension. however, i do have the remedy and i use it quite a bit for downhill. my problem is that in order to soak up the high speed tech/rocky sections smoothly, i have to let out enough air pressure that results in bottoming out pretty hard over the big stuff. i talked to trek and fox and they both verified that there are pretty much no aftermarket shocks available other than the rp2 and rp23 that will fit the remedy, as it's an 8.0x2.25...a pretty odd size. i just sent an email to push yesterday explaining my problems and asking if it's something they feel they can fix.

    i'll keep y'all posted on what i hear back from them.

    btw, great information in this post. thanks.

  23. #23
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    Let us know what push has to say.

    Meanwhile, have you measured the shock eye-to-eye length, or are you simply going by Trek numbers? The 2008 Remedy has a 7.875"x2.25" (I measured it). The 2009 can be different. Pleased measure it and let us know.

    Any way, even if it is a 8"x2.25", putting a 7.875"x2.25" shock (common measure) is not a big problem. It will lower your bottom bracket by about 0.33", slacken the head tube angle a little bit, and mess a little bit with the suspension curve.

    A DHX 5.0 coil is confirmed to fit on the Remedy frame by a few users (seen pics). The DHX Air should fit as well. The same for almost any other non piggyback shock in 7.875"x2.25" measure.

    Lastly, fill the external air chamber with something. I've done that, and it helps. Check this post.
    DHX 5.0 on Remedy? Spring Size?

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    i've got a 2008 as well. i haven't actually measured it....just going by what trek said when i talked to them. hopefully i'll hear back from push soon, and i'll keep ya posted on what they say.

    good to know that i should be able to squeeze a 7.875x2.25 on there, however, if I was reading correctly above, wasn't it recommended to NOT go with the dhx coil or air?

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    Quote Originally Posted by el dardo amarillo
    i've got a 2008 as well. i haven't actually measured it....just going by what trek said when i talked to them. hopefully i'll hear back from push soon, and i'll keep ya posted on what they say.

    good to know that i should be able to squeeze a 7.875x2.25 on there, however, if I was reading correctly above, wasn't it recommended to NOT go with the dhx coil or air?
    No. Just recommended to try and get a little more progressiveness out of the stock shock (especially since its free!) before you start throwing hundreds of dollars at it

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