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  1. #1
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    Butcher Control vs SX casing on heavy AM bike (Rune V2)?

    I'm currently running the Control casing up front w/tube on Flow EX rims due to tear at bead that won't seal with sealant with an Ardent UST in the rear with no tube or sealant for that matter that has been holding up great amidst hard, rugged riding. Does anyone know if there is a big enough difference between either Butcher casing as far as how it rolls and grips? The Control is only 730g's with 50 duro and I have been running it for about 1.5 years now (my go to front tire) and the SX is 950g's with 45/50 duro (same weight as what I am running now w/tube installed). Anybody with any riding experience with the above tires/casings?
    Thx!
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  2. #2
    usually cranky
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    are you looking for a tougher casing? sx is more or less equal to exo. but you will take a hit in how fast the tire rolls.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul View Post
    are you looking for a tougher casing? sx is more or less equal to exo. but you will take a hit in how fast the tire rolls.
    yep. 448 grams is 1lb. Your doing a 200 gram increase. Almost 1/2 lb added to rolling resistance. Some told me 1 lb of rolling resistance is about equivelent to 4lbs static bike weight.
    But hey, you will only notice it the first day. Then you will be used to it. It will be equal to carrying two extra bottles of water in your camelback. The tire will also feel less supple, or less flimsy depending on your taste and perspective. If durabilty is an issue i say do it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul View Post
    are you looking for a tougher casing? sx is more or less equal to exo. but you will take a hit in how fast the tire rolls.
    Good question as I like how the Control feels with tube right now, but don't want to run a tube anymore and was thinking an SX tubeless might feel about the same since the weight is pretty much the same (control w/tube vs SX tubeless). I can get away with Control casing tubeless w/sealant up front most of the time, but did tear one at bead last fall and don't want to risk it in Enduro races or while on longer, faster, more aggro descents that I typically do more of in the summer season. I for sure can't run TLR casings in rear, need at least UST to minimize tearing and probably should be on 2-ply, but do pedal and climb a ton (2-3k'/ride) and don't want the extra rolling resistance. I guess the only way to tell is try them out to see as I have a fairly new Control and SX in my garage waiting to be installed.
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  5. #5
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    The SX casing I found is less noodly feeling than the control version and more resistant to damage. I think it has a better feel to it. Its a pita if your using it tubeless though. It burps frequently, especially at low pressure, and it doesn't hold air well at all. I really wish Specialized would make a UST version of the Butcher and the Clutch. The control version is just not beefy enough. I also like the Clutch up front much better than the Butcher. It holds corners better at speed.
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  6. #6
    usually cranky
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    you tore the bead or the sidewall? each has the same 2bliss bead i believe.

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    The sx casing was much heavier. In the front it makes a difference, in the rear its killer.

    The sx is also quite a bit grippier. I felt much more comfortable pinning corners with the sx casing. When you hear the tire gripping its a good thing.

    The sx also feels like it gives the bike a bit more supsension, weird I know. Compared to the control where it felt more balloon-y the sx felt someone dialed the rebound down the your fork.

    Also look at the clutch. Killer am tire.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul View Post
    you tore the bead or the sidewall? each has the same 2bliss bead i believe.
    Yep, the bead at the sidewall that sealant couldn't block. Have done this to one Purg Control, two Purg Armadillo Controls, one Purg UST in past year when ridden as rear and only one Butcher Control up front in past 1.5 years from hitting a compression hit with some rocks a little too hard. Other than that the Butcher C usually does the job for me, but like the idea of a little stiffer, stouter sidewall with the SX, but not at expense of much slower roller since I climb a ton on my rides.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renovatio View Post
    The sx casing was much heavier. In the front it makes a difference, in the rear its killer.

    The sx is also quite a bit grippier. I felt much more comfortable pinning corners with the sx casing. When you hear the tire gripping its a good thing.

    The sx also feels like it gives the bike a bit more supsension, weird I know. Compared to the control where it felt more balloon-y the sx felt someone dialed the rebound down the your fork.

    Also look at the clutch. Killer am tire.
    Thanks, good feedback! I ran the Clutch C for a couple of years front/rear and was my "go-to" all conditions tire that replaced Minion DHF's. Then the Butcher came out and I like it much better up front and then I replaced the Clutch with Purg last year for a little faster roll, but good/adequate grip in wet, loam, some loose. Dig the Clutch and never ripped one or had any issues at all as tubeless unlike most other tires, but pretty slow tread design compared to the others. I do have the Clutch as back up tire and found it works best with shuttling steep, techy, summer loose for optimal braking traction where everything else breaks loose. The DHRII looks like a great Clutch replacer as well, in TLR 2.3 at only 780g's that looks a little faster with better cornering knobs and faster center.
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  10. #10
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    I run the Butcher SX in the front and a Butcher Control in the back. Great setup for me on a 31 lb AM bike. The biggest thing I notice running them tubless is you can start noticing the sidewalls breaking down when they lose air regularly. Then it's time to replace them if you want to keep running 'em tubeless.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-kul View Post
    you tore the bead or the sidewall? each has the same 2bliss bead i believe.
    I believe only the control has the 2bliss bead, the SX tire doesn't. I have the SX and it's great, I can't compare to the control though since I've never used it.

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    If you like gravity, SX is a much better choice. It's a great tire similar to Minion DHF with perhaps more stick. BUT the rubber is VERY soft, and doesn't last if you push them hard, and these tires beg to go fast. I probably got about 10 hours before the outer knobs started to roll over, and I'm kinda disappointed for a $70 tire.

    The new Miniion DHF and DHR ll EXO 3C 'Maxx Terra' are about 900g. Hardly a weight penalty for awesome AM/DH performance and longevity. They have sturdy enough sidewalls, and don't feel squirmy when you smash a berm with North Shore air pressures, ie 24 front 28 rear, I'm 175lbs

    P.S. Just make sure you get the NEW Minion EXO (with the BIG WHITE FONT, not the old yellow style font). And most important the 3C " Maxx Terra" stamp , otherwise you will get the first generation 3C EXO which are 50a!

    Happy trails
    Last edited by djball; 05-24-2013 at 11:34 AM.

  13. #13
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    Butcher Control vs SX casing on heavy AM bike (Rune V2)?

    Can anybody comment on how the butcher control handles in the mud?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by trap121 View Post
    Can anybody comment on how the butcher control handles in the mud?
    Not ideal in the mud, but handles wet and loam quite well. Handles wet conditions similar to Minion DHF, but I have found it to roll some faster while providing a bit more grip (than the 60 duro DHF version at least). For mud riding, a dedicated mud tire would be better or something like a Schwalbe Muddy Mary or HRII for muck and mixed conditions riding should be sufficient.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by djball View Post
    If you like AM gravity, SX is a much better choice. It's a great tire similar to Minion DHF with perhaps more stick. BUT the rubber is VERY soft, and doesn't last if you push them hard, and these tires beg to go fast. I probably got about 10 hours before the outer knobs started to roll over, and I'm kinda upset for a $70 tire.

    The new Miniion DHF and DHR ll EXO 3C 'Maxx Terra' are about 900g. Hardly a weight penalty for awesome AM/DH performance and longevity. They have sturdy enough sidewalls, and don't feel squirmy when you smash a berm with North Shore air pressures, ie 24 front 28 rear, I'm 175lbs

    P.S. Just make sure you get the NEW Minion EXO (with the BIG WHITE FONT, not the old yellow style font). And most important the 3C " Maxx Terra" stamp , otherwise you will get the first generation 3C EXO which are 50a and totally SUCK!!! Stores will try to sell you these if you're not careful. PAY ATTENTION, and never go back if they try to pull this one.

    Happy trails
    Thanks. I mounted the SX last night tubeless with sealant on Stans Flow EX rims and the weirdest thing happened. The tire blew off the rim while laying on it's side on box for sealant to seal the bead. I mounted it again and same thing happened within a minute or two while laying on its side. So, took tire off and put Butcher Control back on with no probs. The SX won't be seeing any time on these rims at least, maybe with a tube at best. Going to HR Enduro race this weekend with Butcher Control front/Clutch Control rear for the wet, loose conditions that is currently going on.
    Ride On!

  16. #16
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    Re: Butcher Control vs SX casing on heavy AM bike (Rune V2)?

    I run an xs 2.5 on the front after having a near death experience blowing out an ardent 2.4 tubeless. I missed a turn and hit a stump and poof. So I now run tube on the front on my am bike.

    After a couple rides, feels just as grippy when i lay it over without the 'grip gap' that the ardent has. Ardent didn't feel like it gripped until you rolled it all the way over. Sx is good tire in mixed bay area packed/rocky/rutted/loose/all around. Haven't tried it in super loose powdery Tahoe yet, and we don't have real hardcore snake bite sharp gnar around here.

    Spits a lot of small gravel due to close spacing of the knobs.

    Its definitely heavier though. Extra weight actually sort of helps on the dh when plowing through chum. But you'll notice it on the climbs for sure.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta View Post
    Thanks. I mounted the SX last night tubeless with sealant on Stans Flow EX rims and the weirdest thing happened. The tire blew off the rim while laying on it's side on box for sealant to seal the bead. I mounted it again and same thing happened within a minute or two while laying on its side. So, took tire off and put Butcher Control back on with no probs. The SX won't be seeing any time on these rims at least, maybe with a tube at best. Going to HR Enduro race this weekend with Butcher Control front/Clutch Control rear for the wet, loose conditions that is currently going on.
    You are going to kill yourself trying to run non UST tires tubeless on non UST rims. Knock it off. The weight savings are irrelevant if the tire falls off the rim.

    That being said, if a tire blows off in that manner, I wouldn't trust it on that rim with a tube either. Give it to Dave. Maybe he can get it on his DTs.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity View Post
    You are going to kill yourself trying to run non UST tires tubeless on non UST rims. Knock it off. The weight savings are irrelevant if the tire falls off the rim.

    That being said, if a tire blows off in that manner, I wouldn't trust it on that rim with a tube either. Give it to Dave. Maybe he can get it on his DTs.
    Haha. I've had great luck with Spesh 2bliss beads on Stans as the bead always hooks pretty good and stays. Never blew one of these off in almost 2 yrs of use, whereas have blown off Maxxis and wouldn't trust Conti, WTB, etc. Schwalbe TLR tires are the only non-UST tires I've had good luck running tubeless as well. Dont' know what was up with the SX, either not 2bliss bead like the Control casings or it was simply stretched out too much from friend who gave it to me that ran tubeless before on bigger rims, so I just found out. My only issue with TLR/UST tires is that I eventually tear them at the bead/sidewall interface before long. Should probably be on 2-ply for all my riding. UST on UST is the best in terms of compatibility of course as you stated.
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