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Bar height and handling

7K views 25 replies 20 participants last post by  yohyat 
#1 ·
Curious why there isn't much talk about bar height and handling. I think it is big factor in climbing and descending. I have two bikes with same geometry but one has a bar height 1.5 inches lower bar height but handling is totally different cause of body weight distribution. Anybody have literature on it?
 
#5 ·
aliikane said:
Curious why there isn't much talk about bar height and handling. I think it is big factor in climbing and descending. I have two bikes with same geometry but one has a bar height 1.5 inches lower bar height but handling is totally different cause of body weight distribution. Anybody have literature on it?
If I understand you correctly you are talking about adding spacer under the stem to add height to the bar, right? I think many people would only add a bit of spacer)s) under or over the stems to keep the fork steerer length long enough if they want to swap to another frame later. I don't think they would intentionally because each frame design has predetermine height.

If it's a bar rise then it's a bit different story, I prefer low rise on all my bike mainly because It makes me feel like I have more room on the bar and it's easier to adj for sweep angle than the high rise one. On my DJ bike I have 50mm stem and 1.25" rise it feels great and easier to loft the front wheel with that set up.
 
#7 ·
mimi1885 said:
If I understand you correctly you are talking about adding spacer under the stem to add height to the bar, right? I think many people would only add a bit of spacer)s) under or over the stems to keep the fork steerer length long enough if they want to swap to another frame later. I don't think they would intentionally because each frame design has predetermine height.

If it's a bar rise then it's a bit different story, I prefer low rise on all my bike mainly because It makes me feel like I have more room on the bar and it's easier to adj for sweep angle than the high rise one. On my DJ bike I have 50mm stem and 1.25" rise it feels great and easier to loft the front wheel with that set up.
Spacers or riser bars. Both raise the bar height. Also, head tube height, headset stack height, fork length, etc make up bar height. The main reason I bring it up is everyone talks about geometry and how it affects riding characteristics which it does but in my opinion bar height is just as important. For example the bike I ride has bar height 1.5 inches lower. It climbs way better on steeps but is just not as good downhill. My body weight distribution is as well balanced descending especially in the steep fast rock chop. I think bar height has a lot to do with steep-ness of the bike not just geometry makes a bike steep or more slack.
 
#8 ·
mimi1885 said:
If I understand you correctly you are talking about adding spacer under the stem to add height to the bar, right? I think many people would only add a bit of spacer)s) under or over the stems to keep the fork steerer length long enough if they want to swap to another frame later. I don't think they would intentionally because each frame design has predetermine height.

If it's a bar rise then it's a bit different story, I prefer low rise on all my bike mainly because It makes me feel like I have more room on the bar and it's easier to adj for sweep angle than the high rise one. On my DJ bike I have 50mm stem and 1.25" rise it feels great and easier to loft the front wheel with that set up.
Has more to do with bar height relative to the BB. It is likely that the top of the head tube of your DJ bike is lower than the other bike. So if you wanted a similar feel on both bikes the DJ would need to use a taller bar/stem.
 
#9 ·
aliikane said:
Spacers or riser bars. Both raise the bar height. Also, head tube height, headset stack height, fork length, etc make up bar height. The main reason I bring it up is everyone talks about geometry and how it affects riding characteristics which it does but in my opinion bar height is just as important. For example the bike I ride has bar height 1.5 inches lower. It climbs way better on steeps but is just not as good downhill. My body weight distribution is as well balanced descending especially in the steep fast rock chop. I think bar height has a lot to do with steep-ness of the bike not just geometry makes a bike steep or more slack.
Yes I experience the same lower front aid climbing better but give on the descend. Higher front end tend to flop/wheelie your front wheel on the steep climb. In general I prefer the more upright position because it's more comfortable but that's just me.

shiggy said:
Has more to do with bar height relative to the BB. It is likely that the top of the head tube of your DJ bike is lower than the other bike. So if you wanted a similar feel on both bikes the DJ would need to use a taller bar/stem.
It makes sense also the fact that it has short chainstay also contribute to the ease of front wheel lift as well:)
 
#10 · (Edited)
b-kul said:
lower to go down, higher to go up; in a nut shell.
This does sum it up but backwards... move it up or down 5mm at a time until you find the right compromise that works for you between climbing (move down) and descending (move up). Higher bar will contribute to front end wandering on the climbs and lower bar will contribute to the over the bar feeling.

Stem length is also part of the equation I think. It feels like I can lower the bars a little more with a shorter stem.

Great under rated subject. :thumbsup:
 
#11 ·
It's less of a height issue, more of a center of gravity change.

When you raise your bar height, your body's center of gravity shifts rearward. Just like in a car, the magic balance of 50% weight on the front, 50% weight on the rear yields the most predictable and reliable handling, and much of the same goes for riding.

Since you shift your center of gravity rearward with a higher bar height, regardless of why (riser bar, spacers, stem rise, axle-to-crown, headset cups, even tire height), you're putting more weight on your rear wheel than your front. On an uphill climb, this issue is multiplied and thus your front end starts wandering because it barely has any weight on it.

If you lower your bars, the opposite happens. Your COG moves forward, balancing the weight ratio front and rear, and thus your front wheel has traction and yadda yadda.

The opposite holds true for downhill. Raising your bars is beneficial because your COG is shifted rearward. The same reason why you shift your butt behind your seat.. get more traction in the rear, get to the magic 50/50 ratio.

For AM, strike a balance. Then learn to shift to the tip of your seat for climbs, and shift to the rear of your seat or behind to descend.

As far as stuff like stem length:

The longer the stem length, the further your twisting force is from the axis of rotation, aka the steerer. This means it requires more movement on your part to get the front wheel to turn. It gives you more stability and also shifts your weight forward, both which are beneficial for climbing.

The shorter the stem length, the opposite is true. You can twitch your front wheel faster, the rate of movement around the steerer is more rapid, and it shifts your weight rearward. All useful for downhill.
 
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#12 ·
dumbaSS said:
This does sum it up but backwards... move it up or down 5mm at a time until you find the right compromise that works for you between climbing (move down) and descending (move up). Higher bar will contribute to front end wandering on the climbs and lower bar will contribute to the over the bar feeling.

Stem length is also part of the equation I think. It feels like I can lower the bars a little more with a shorter stem.

Great under rated subject. :thumbsup:
Saddle position is another way to move CG forward for climbing, without affecting descending balance.
 
#14 · (Edited)
nice thread...was just wondering the same thing myself...:thumbsup:

I am 6' tall...has a HT that comes with XC setup...however, because of the nature of the trails around here, it seems some changes is needed to make it a bit more AM would suit the singletracks here better...

I think its setup currently favours climbing and I find I need to shift my weight way back on DH's and on flat surface, I find myself wanting to sit more upright all the time otherwise the numb-hand symdrone set in straight away. BTW, it also makes my lower back hurt...:sad:

so the question is, what's the easiest & cheapest way to make it a bit more AM friendly?
:)
 
#15 ·
paul_c33 said:
nice thread...was just wondering the same thing myself...:thumbsup:

I am 6' tall...has a HT that comes with XC setup...however, because of the nature of the trails around here, it seems some changes is needed to make it a bit more AM would suit the singletracks here better...

I think its setup currently favours climbing and I find I need to shift my weight way back on DH's and on flat surface, I find myself wanting to sit more upright all the time otherwise the numb-hand symdrone set in straight away. BTW, it also makes my lower back hurt...:sad:

so the question is, what's the easiest & cheapest way to make it a bit more AM friendly?
:)
Larger higher volume front tire, you get better front end control down steep stuff, & will raise the front end a bit as well
 
#16 ·
paul_c33 said:
I think its setup currently favours climbing and I find I need to shift my weight way back on DH's and on flat surface, I find myself wanting to sit more upright all the time otherwise the numb-hand symdrone set in straight away. BTW, it also makes my lower back hurt...:sad:

so the question is, what's the easiest & cheapest way to make it a bit more AM friendly?
:)
The tires definitely affect geometry for me as well, also stem length and bar rotation if there's rise. I like to line up the rise on the bars to the same angle as the forks to start. If you tilt them too far forward your hands go up in an odd chopper stance.

On my bike the difference in 10mm stem length/saddle can really e felt. Especially when I roll steep junk. A decent way to start measuring is to just sit on a couch arm or something where you aren't supported by yourfeet. Lean forward w/ arms in bar position..to the point where you're almost tipping forward. Should give you a general upright position to measure from. Sorry slow typing today
 
#17 ·
I was always under the impression that a low bar height would be better for climbing, but recently I raised my bars up 20mm and I found that my bike climbed better with less front end lift and was easier to steer on the ups. As a bonus, I like it on the downs better too, the front end seems to push less in the corners. I think the most important thing is to play around with the relationship until you find one that works. Each bike is different, with different variables, so there is no hard fast rule, only generalities.
Here is some good reading on the subject:
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/stem-lengthrise-for-a-trail-bike.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/stems-and-bars-long-and-low-or-short-and-high.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/again-that-whole-stembar-height-thing.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/handlebar-position-the-secret-revealed.html
 
#18 ·
It's not rocket science, and no need to peruse a bunch of literature... just try different things. I put a 1" longer stem on my bike because I enjoy technical climbing and the stock stem was causing me to wheelie like crazy. When going to a terrain park or shuttling local trails, I'd throw the shorter stem back on, along with lowering the rear shock air pressure. Then I change the stem again before the next XC ride.

The stem was like $5.00 from the local bike shop's box of unwanted stems. :thumbsup:
 
#19 ·
With steep head tube angles 67' - 69' for 6 to 5 inch travel easy handling for more nimble tight technical trail riding, I've found lower bars allow me to brake harder and control speed further down steeper downhills. And lower bars make it easier to lean forward for climbing steep too. For steep sketchy downhill handling I think lower is easier because I'm able to lean and balance my weight on the bars lower behind the tire patch and axle.

Reading all the previous responses saying higher bar height is easier downhill, maybe bar height doesn't matter so much with DH bikes having much slacker geo and even shorter stems.

But it appears to me that pro racers use bars nearly as low as possible using minimal height stems and low rise bars.
 
#20 ·
derby said:
...Reading all the previous responses saying higher bar height is easier downhill, maybe bar height doesn't matter so much with DH bikes having much slacker geo and even shorter stems.

But it appears to me that pro racers use bars nearly as low as possible using minimal height stems and low rise bars.
Part of that is because the top of the head tube is pretty high compared to a short travel bike because of the long fork. Add in the slammed saddle height and the attach position crouch and a top DHer is very low on the bike while the front is still relatively tall.
 
#21 ·
morandi said:
I was always under the impression that a low bar height would be better for climbing, but recently I raised my bars up 20mm and I found that my bike climbed better with less front end lift and was easier to steer on the ups. As a bonus, I like it on the downs better too, the front end seems to push less in the corners. I think the most important thing is to play around with the relationship until you find one that works. Each bike is different, with different variables, so there is no hard fast rule, only generalities.
Here is some good reading on the subject:
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/stem-lengthrise-for-a-trail-bike.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/stems-and-bars-long-and-low-or-short-and-high.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/again-that-whole-stembar-height-thing.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/handlebar-position-the-secret-revealed.html
The bar can be too low as well as too high. Just need to find the best compromise for yourself.
 
#22 ·
I have tried 4 - 50mm rise handlebars in which the only major difference in each handlebar was the degree of upward sweep(ranging from 3 - 6 degrees). Total height matters but the difference in riding characteristics between each handlebar based solely on the degree of up sweep was surprisingly stark. At 3 degrees upsweep I really had to work to get the nose of the bike up when climbing or taking large drops. At 6 degrees upsweep, I could pull the bike over the top with minimal effort. The sweet spot for me was the Answer Pro Taper 50mm Riser bar with 8 degrees backsweep and 4 degrees upsweep.
 
#24 ·
treaty_oak@yahoo.com said:
The sweet spot for me was the Answer Pro Taper 50mm Riser bar with 8 degrees backsweep and 4 degrees upsweep.
I settled on the same bars, and in carbon they are the only wide bars with a 50mm rise.

I prefer high rise bars and a lower stack/stem height. It allows me to lean a little lower when going up technical climbs.
 
#25 ·
shiggy said:
Part of that is because the top of the head tube is pretty high compared to a short travel bike because of the long fork. Add in the slammed saddle height and the attach position crouch and a top DHer is very low on the bike while the front is still relatively tall.
Yeah, I've noticed many of the newer bikes have head tubes that are quite high like you said which may require lower bars to be comfy in relation to the seat height you most often ride in. Really depends on the frame style and you can't just say yeah, it works better with this low bar or this high bar.

On my size large Prophet which came originally with a 105 or 110mm stem (stupid) I have finally settled on a Hope 75mm, 25 degree rise (yeah 25) stem and 40mm rise Monkey bars with very little sweep. I'm 6' even. Bars with to much sweep messes up wrist angles IMO. This puts the bars about level or just slightly below my max seat height (I have a RASE dropper post) to keep my 53YO back comfy on long rides with a loaded Camelbak.

I guess for me I'm more interested in what people like for bar height in relation to their most used seat height. Since all bikes manufacturers bike frames are different the height of one persons bars/stem could be flat vs someone elses like mine with allot of rise but we both end up with the same seat height/bar height relationship.

Does that make sense???
 
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