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  1. #1
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    allmountain racing.

    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.

  2. #2
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    Megavalanche, downieville....races are coming up.

  3. #3
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    XC racing is lame! We're working on the urban downhill event I talked with you about! Hopefully it'll be held where I said it would be held and we're going to start working on the presentation [risks and liabilities] to city council soon.
    "If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." ~ J. Whittaker

  4. #4
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    XC racing used to be pretty rough compared to what it is now, at least around here. I blame the UCI World Cup series. The WC in Canmore back in the late 90's was considered a "technical" course, and that was after they chopped all the roots out of the climbs and widened the trail by about 4'. For an AM race, it should be a single 40km loop featuring some or all of the following:
    - creek crossings
    - scree
    - babyheads
    - loose gravel
    - sand
    - roots
    - roots
    - more roots
    - grassy meadows
    - washouts
    - wet leaves
    - cow ****
    - horse ****
    - abusive hikers
    - bear[s]
    - trail tread no wider than 3'
    - average 10% grade for the loop [4000m gain over 40 km]
    - no outside technical assistance, but you can get stuff from your fellow racers
    - no feed stations
    - clock stops after you chug a beer and eat a slice of leftover pizza at the finish

    Sounds pretty reasonable to me...
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  5. #5
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    ^^^ you forgot 'safety meetings'
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  6. #6
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    Yeah, I did a lot of MTB racing in the late 80's and it could be pretty technical. We didn't really have different categories of MTB back then. It was all the same.

    I think that's probably why I get all bent when I read people talking down about XC riders/racing like they can hardly even ride a bike. I just never think of MTB or XC as some flat, straight, smooth fire road. I see it as the old days, the same as AM minus big jumps and drops.

  7. #7
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    You need to get up to BC and race... there's a couple coming up that I wouldn't ride on an XC bike;

    Squamish Gear Jammer

    North Shore Bike Fest

    Both of those are tough races and the Squamish one is all singletrack on great trails that are technically challenging. I'll be riding them on my new Remedy. Should be the perfect set up. I won't break records, but I'll have a lot of fun.

    Oh and it also goes to show that BC isn't all about big gap jumps and riding skinny logs, there's a LOT of great epic riding to be done on superb single track that is technically challenging.

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    Haha, didnt a certain someone chug a beer and eat a pizza mid race at a certain event recently? LOL.
    "If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." ~ J. Whittaker

  9. #9
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    I was thinking about how to shoot this down, but perhaps there could be some legs on this.

    Maybe a minimum weight, such as 30 pounds, minimum travel, and then everything else goes. Courses made accordingly.

  10. #10
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    My teammate broke a khs crest frame during an xc race this year, I don't think that would happen on course where "they chopped all the roots out of the climbs and widened the trail by about 4 feet."

    not trying to start an argument, just sayin that there are still some race courses out there that "bring the gnar," or at least a little bit of gnar.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  11. #11
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    Anything here in the EAST SIDE!

    Besides Massanutten are there any super D like races on the east coast... anyone heard of new ones... ANYTHING!
    "This sticker is dangerous and inconvienent, but I do love Fig Newtons"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    Most of the local xc races around here are anything but road races. Some are downright brutal in the technical dept. Rocky, rooty, steep ups and downs, extended climbs and descents.

    Thing is, assuming you are starting and ending on the same elevation, I can't see wanting an AM rig to race any of them, even though it is what I would have more fun with, and what I like to ride them on now. I'd choose a XC bike for pretty much any of them if there was someone with a stopwatch at the end of it.

  13. #13
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    If not for the road sections (dirt & pavement) the Breckenridge Firecracker 50 could be considered a great AM race course. Most of the singletrack sections are pretty rough and steep. It is the Marathon National Championship. Here's to hoping Mark will reroute and eliminate some of the road climb (turn off Boreas Pass Rd onto Aspen Tunnel and climb singletrack all the way to Baker's Tank).

    Edit: Nevermind, I forgot that the gnarliest part, Nightmare on Baldy is gone now
    Keep the Country country.

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    Ya the races here in texas are hard. But you go to a pro race and a first time rider can race it. I think if you want to be pro you should ride pro trail not novice trails. Other then speed I would put myself against any pro cross country racer and more then likely win.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    Other then speed I would put myself against any pro cross country racer and more then likely win.
    Win what? What is there besides speed in a race? Best outfit?

    Heck, other than cooking, I am just as good as the top chefs in the world.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Win what? What is there besides speed in a race? Best outfit?

    Heck, other than cooking, I am just as good as the top chefs in the world.
    hahahahaha.

  17. #17
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    I'd be all over a race like this. Here on the east coast we have a couple of long races and some 24 hour stuff which is ok but it's pure XC. I did some of those races a couple years back on a 6x6 but it was just silly. I ended up picking an XC rig just for those races. I would love to come across a race that would scare the crap out of you if you were on an XC bike. Something that would take like 5 or 6 hours to complete with techy climbs and gnarly downhills. A race that would reward someone with a mix of Downhill/Freeride level tech skills and XC/Roadie level of aerobics. Me and my buds have a couple of group rides that are like this every year. Would be cool to have an official race like this.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I'd be all over a race like this. Here on the east coast we have a couple of long races and some 24 hour stuff which is ok but it's pure XC. I did some of those races a couple years back on a 6x6 but it was just silly. I ended up picking an XC rig just for those races. I would love to come across a race that would scare the crap out of you if you were on an XC bike. Something that would take like 5 or 6 hours to complete with techy climbs and gnarly downhills. A race that would reward someone with a mix of Downhill/Freeride level tech skills and XC/Roadie level of aerobics. Me and my buds have a couple of group rides that are like this every year. Would be cool to have an official race like this.


    Thats what i'm talking about. Most everyday riders ride all day are at least me and my bubbys do. It's not just about speed. If you want speed then downhill. But aleast even downhillers have skill.

  19. #19
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    There were also some cool sounding enduro style races in the UK last year at some of the trail centres. You had to be at the start of the prescribed DH trail at a certain time having ridden there. Yes climbed up, no shuttle. You were then timed on the DH trail and the times from each trail (5 I think) were added up. The times between runs were sufficiently tight that you had to pedal to each. Those guys were riding 6x6 bikes for that. It was reported in Dirt Magazine a few issues back.

  20. #20
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    We have lots of A-M races

    another poster mentioned 2 well-known BC races, and there are lots more:

    1) Victoria to Whistler - 7 day race Video teaser

    2) Test of Metal at Squamish - sold out 800 spots as fast as the server could handle entries: http://testofmetal.com/pages/posts/t...he-world46.php
    67 Km and 1600 M of climbing

    3) Trans Rockies: Over 600 kilometres and 12 000 vertical metres through the most rugged and majestic terrain the Canadian Rockies have to offer. ~ 6 days of very serious riding.http://www.transrockies.com/trc/

    Time to escape Texas and discover the world.


    That ought to be AM enough I think.

    Jim

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.

    You are SOOOO phucking clueless. At the top level XC racers are really good bike riders, have to be. The best XC racer in the world Julien Absalon rips on a bike, his brother dominates the Mega Avalanche series. Adam Craig, Ross Schnell, Todd Wells, all these guys would smoke you so bad on technical stuff you'd get off your bike and start crying.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  22. #22
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    Actually there's a picture of Adam Craig airing off the GLC drop at the Whistler bike park at the end of the Super D race. He's a good bike handler for sure.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You are SOOOO phucking clueless. At the top level XC racers are really good bike riders, have to be. The best XC racer in the world Julien Absalon rips on a bike, his brother dominates the Mega Avalanche series. Adam Craig, Ross Schnell, Todd Wells, all these guys would smoke you so bad on technical stuff you'd get off your bike and start crying.
    XC racer?
    NO SHIRT
    NO SHOES
    NO DICE

  24. #24
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    i rode once in marathon thru a half of my country and we went thru a one small town where cows went home from pasture. and there were about 60 of bicyclists riding on their bicycles. and cows had never seen so many riders and there were three types of cow's reactions on us.
    1. first group stopped and looked at us.
    2. run away from us
    3. run away and sh*t at a time
    so 3rd group made a real problem us to riding but it was very fun anyway despite this sh*t. when we passed those cows, guys talked about how many "sh*t mines" they activated

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff spicoli
    XC racer?
    Nope, bicycle rider.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Thing is, assuming you are starting and ending on the same elevation, I can't see wanting an AM rig to race any of them, even though it is what I would have more fun with, and what I like to ride them on now. I'd choose a XC bike for pretty much any of them if there was someone with a stopwatch at the end of it.
    And there is the thruth. If you have a course where the start and the end are on the same elevation, you just can't make it an AM race. No matter how gnarly the terrain is. The reason is if you have same amount of climbing and descending on the course you spend most of the race time climbing so a light bike (xc bike) is the fastest tool.

    The people who organice Megavalanche, (and a lot of other races with similar format in Europe), have it right. All of those races are more or less downhill, there is pedalling and even minor uphills, but mostly downhill. Those races can be done on a xc bike or on a full on dh bike, but ~6" AM bikes are fastest for the job.

    http://saabsalomonavalanchetrophy.com/uk/# (check the videos)
    http://www.avalanchecup.com/

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    I think the same guys would win.... Don't underestimate guys like Absalon and Sauser's technical ability. I've watched them do amazing things on the bike. These guys would be competative at the pro level in DH/4x/whatever. Julien's brother is a world champ marathon DH champ. Absalon won the world champ marathon xc race.

  28. #28
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    If you were riding a loop or a out and back type of race then your 4000m of vertical becomes 4000m over 20km (since you would have to end where you start) making it 20%

  29. #29
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    Damn! Pwned by the maths.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm_gunslinger
    I think the same guys would win.... Don't underestimate guys like Absalon and Sauser's technical ability. I've watched them do amazing things on the bike. These guys would be competative at the pro level in DH/4x/whatever. Julien's brother is a world champ marathon DH champ. Absalon won the world champ marathon xc race.
    No, they wouldn't. I'm not taking anything away from them, they're absolutely ripping athletes, and peak levels of fitness are probably much higher for the most part with Cross/XC/AM then with DH/4x/DS/BMX/MX, but No, very very few of them could compete in high level pro DH/4x, UCI WC status.

    Hopefully I'm not opening a can of worms here, and I hate to try and take anything away from them, because I think guys like craig, absalon, Sauser, and the list goes on, are all absolutely steller athletes and I'm sure most of them rip a DH on an XC line pretty damn well, and this is supposed to be an AM race thread, so lets keep it that way. No disrespect to the guys at all!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    ^^^ you forgot 'safety meetings'
    It isn't a true am ride without a 'safety meeting'

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    OK, here is a REAL AM race/event...........

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...nt#post5123607

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    The moto guys have enduro events which a few people mentioned.

    The event is basically some kind of loop and different sections of the course are timed, differently. If you did something for bikes you can bias the timed sections to benefit the rider on a bigger bike.

    It's basically what happens when a bunch of guys ride together.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    The moto guys have enduro events which a few people mentioned.

    The event is basically some kind of loop and different sections of the course are timed, differently. If you did something for bikes you can bias the timed sections to benefit the rider on a bigger bike.

    It's basically what happens when a bunch of guys ride together.
    And there you have it:
    http://saabsalomonavalanchetrophy.co...sentation.html

  35. #35
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    We have a National series of "Enduro" races (as in dirt bike enduro) in Finland.

    A race is a loop that you have to make within a relatively loose time (to prevent penalty time). There's several timed sections within the loop, that actually count as race time. Racers start the timed sections one by one, at one minute intervals, or so. This year, rules specify that timed sections have to end at lower altitude than they begin.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    No, they wouldn't. I'm not taking anything away from them, they're absolutely ripping athletes, and peak levels of fitness are probably much higher for the most part with Cross/XC/AM then with DH/4x/DS/BMX/MX, but No, very very few of them could compete in high level pro DH/4x, UCI WC status.

    Hopefully I'm not opening a can of worms here, and I hate to try and take anything away from them, because I think guys like craig, absalon, Sauser, and the list goes on, are all absolutely steller athletes and I'm sure most of them rip a DH on an XC line pretty damn well, and this is supposed to be an AM race thread, so lets keep it that way. No disrespect to the guys at all!
    I guess you never raced against the likes of guys like Tomac and Herebold? Tomac was a great x-country racer that you can say did well on the DH, and Herebold was a great DH'er and what has now evolved into 4x but also did well on the world level in x-country (he would crack top 20's regularly). Both were also very good at what was called short track events back then, kind of a multi-lap spectator friendly bmx race. Tomac could catch major air and do major tricks while winning these events (so could greg too).

    Julien was a great BMX'er. Also, have you seen the moves and tricks this guy can do? They're outstanding to say the least.... He is a very good freerider. He may not win DH events at the WC level, but I'm sure if it became his focus he would be someone competing at the WC events... Ditto for Sauser who, again, won the world championship marathon race (though was relegated to 2nd for irregular sprinting).

    Going back to AM "racing," my main point is these guys would still be winning....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm_gunslinger
    I guess you never raced against the likes of guys like Tomac and Herebold? Tomac was a great x-country racer that you can say did well on the DH, and Herebold was a great DH'er and what has now evolved into 4x but also did well on the world level in x-country (he would crack top 20's regularly). Both were also very good at what was called short track events back then, kind of a multi-lap spectator friendly bmx race. Tomac could catch major air and do major tricks while winning these events (so could greg too).

    Julien was a great BMX'er. Also, have you seen the moves and tricks this guy can do? They're outstanding to say the least.... He is a very good freerider. He may not win DH events at the WC level, but I'm sure if it became his focus he would be someone competing at the WC events... Ditto for Sauser who, again, won the world championship marathon race (though was relegated to 2nd for irregular sprinting).

    Going back to AM "racing," my main point is these guys would still be winning....

    Hey, now! This is am AM thread on the AM board! For purposes of discussion, pro xc-racers are spandex clad sissy-roadies, and pro level courses are all novice-level riding because that is all these pansies can handle. This just feels right in our guts, and is comforting. It has truthiness. Don't go mucking this up with all your "facts" and "real world examples" to the contrary, we don't need that kind of know-it-all attitude.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbames190
    It isn't a true am ride without a 'safety meeting'
    While I agree...

    For the spirit of this forum...it's not a true AM ride unless you are slammin a dew.
    "I'm supa-fly TNT, I'm tha guns of the navarone!"

  39. #39
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    Great thread.

    Really though, world cup XCs are not what they once were. Anybody else ride Bromont and Mt. Saint Anne last year? The courses are techy and world cup XC racers are good, they can descend single track as fast as anybody.

    For example my wife is one best XC racers in the world (Won Bromont world cup last year), her brother has been one of the best DHers in Canada (Canada Cup Champ) for the past 10 years. If they are on a single track descent he has to pin it to get a little bit of a gap.

    All that being said you could make a pretty cool All Mountain Event. A 20 minute race with more descending then climbing and some really techy lines. It would have to be a TT event though, I hate races that come down to getting the whole shot. It would be interesting to see who would come out on top at the elite level. As I said many of best XC racers have really good technical skills, and many of the top DHers are really fit and climb very fast.

  40. #40
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    I want to make a race with penalty sections.

    If you touch a foot while climbing a nasty uphill, you are stopped at the top, and held for 30 seconds, or a minute.

    This would even the playing field for good technical riders, and also for full suspension bikes, and make it worthwhile to race with trail tires, rather than semi-slicks. The bikes that could win a race like this would more resemble trail bikes than XC bikes.

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    having a rally style event with several timed sections would be ok too. have to use same bike,

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelsman
    having a rally style event with several timed sections would be ok too. have to use same bike,
    The sections would have to be short (8 minutes or less) any longer than that it become primarily a fitness test as opposed to technical skills.

  43. #43
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    Super D Races In Canada

    I would really like to do some super d races. I live in Ontario Canada does any one know if there are any around here?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    Wow. People are a little touchy on the XC thing, eh? This is the All Mountain Forum, right?

    I think that might be a "crude" description, but I would tend to agree that its much more like the Tour than it is like Klunkerz.

    I mean, look at high end XC bikes, you can't pound these things on "All Mountain" trails (whatever that might mean) - they would crumble. They are designed for the courses they are raced on. XC racing is a very large reason that the marketers identified/invented the "All Mountain Category". There was niche. It has been filled. Almost. A keen race format would really be a cool thing for bikes, and would solidify the AM thing even further. Right now it just sort of floats there...

    (I realize that the marketeers did not actually "invent" all-mountain... it was just a movement that somebody was able to pigeonhole and capitalize upon).

    There's some interesting ideas about formats here so far, I think it would be cool to see this take off. I like the idea of having more down that up, and that being able to control/negotiate the bike would be a little more important than endurance.

    And who knows, XC rider just might do great at this - whatever "this" turns out to be. My guess is that it will just create another new type of bicycle athlete, which would be cool.
    Tomac? Herbold? yeah, they might just do great at such an event, both were very versatile riders/athletes. They were unique, along with a handful of others. Pro level XC racers are incredible athletes, but trying to equate all of them to Tomac et all is a bit misleading, in my opinion anyhow.

  45. #45
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    It would be nice to have a race that rewards technically skilled riders to more of a degree, than current XC races do. And challenges that make a trail bike like most of us ride a more suitable choice to use.

    I have watched XC races, and most times the climbs are hard pack fireroad. So of course an ultralight semi-slick tire bike is going to be faster. And if they reach a tough uphill it is just faster to get off and run. It does not benefit a rider to have a tire capable of climbing that one nasty section, nor can he climb it faster than it can be ran. I hate seeing mountain bikers run up a section and not even try to ride it!

    I would like to see sections made that if you can't climb it, then you don't continue, just like they do in the motorcycle race "Last Man Standing". Or make it so that if you do dab, or walk the section, then you get a major time penalty at the top, and have to stand there and watch the riders that cleaned the hill, motor on past you.

    Then you could throw in some other things, like how about a downhill option? One path takes you down through a nasty, challenging downhill, the other way goes around and is much longer, so if you go that way you lose time. Throw in a gap jump with a ride around. There are lots of possibilities, and it would be much more interesting to watch then the current XC snooze fests. Why do you think XC does not get any TV coverage. It's just not that exciting to watch.

    A race like this would even things out. A bike with "real" mountain tires and rear suspension would be able to climb up things a semi-slick hardtail would not. And you would have to have some skills to take that semi-slick, half road bike, down a really rocky nasty downhill, and it might just break in half or taco a rim trying to go through a rock garden or do a jump. I am not saying XC guys aren't skilled, but lets see those skills.I would like to see some reward to those technical uphill masters.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    It would be nice to have a race that rewards technically skilled riders to more of a degree, than current XC races do. And challenges that make a trail bike like most of us ride a more suitable choice to use.

    I have watched XC races, and most times the climbs are hard pack fireroad. So of course an ultralight semi-slick tire bike is going to be faster. And if they reach a tough uphill it is just faster to get off and run. It does not benefit a rider to have a tire capable of climbing that one nasty section, nor can he climb it faster than it can be ran. I hate seeing mountain bikers run up a section and not even try to ride it!

    I would like to see sections made that if you can't climb it, then you don't continue, just like they do in the motorcycle race "Last Man Standing". Or make it so that if you do dab, or walk the section, then you get a major time penalty at the top, and have to stand there and watch the riders that cleaned the hill, motor on past you.

    Then you could throw in some other things, like how about a downhill option? One path takes you down through a nasty, challenging downhill, the other way goes around and is much longer, so if you go that way you lose time. Throw in a gap jump with a ride around. There are lots of possibilities, and it would be much more interesting to watch then the current XC snooze fests. Why do you think XC does not get any TV coverage. It's just not that exciting to watch.

    A race like this would even things out. A bike with "real" mountain tires and rear suspension would be able to climb up things a semi-slick hardtail would not. And you would have to have some skills to take that semi-slick, half road bike, down a really rocky nasty downhill, and it might just break in half or taco a rim trying to go through a rock garden or do a jump. I am not saying XC guys aren't skilled, but lets see those skills.I would like to see some reward to those technical uphill masters.
    Interesting. Design a race for my bike instead of a bike for a race.

    Why stop with my bike? They should also design the race so that it favors my extra stomach flab. Maybe a refrigerated section where all those sub-10% body fat guys have to stop and put on an extra layer.

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    La Ruta De Conquistadores... Nuff said...
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm_gunslinger
    I guess you never raced against the likes of guys like Tomac and Herebold? Tomac was a great x-country racer that you can say did well on the DH, and Herebold was a great DH'er and what has now evolved into 4x but also did well on the world level in x-country (he would crack top 20's regularly). Both were also very good at what was called short track events back then, kind of a multi-lap spectator friendly bmx race. Tomac could catch major air and do major tricks while winning these events (so could greg too).

    Julien was a great BMX'er. Also, have you seen the moves and tricks this guy can do? They're outstanding to say the least.... He is a very good freerider. He may not win DH events at the WC level, but I'm sure if it became his focus he would be someone competing at the WC events... Ditto for Sauser who, again, won the world championship marathon race (though was relegated to 2nd for irregular sprinting).

    Going back to AM "racing," my main point is these guys would still be winning....
    I mean no disrespect for tomac, but you can't argue the sport hasn't evolved a bit. People are going faster and faster in both DH and XC, bikes are getting nicer and nicer, and racers are getting more and more specialized talents.

    Take Jurgan Beneke. By all ac****s a solid rider, who's main talent is descending, and he's good enough at doing it that he can do damn well in an AM event like downieville. He still races pro class DH from time to time, but at this point he is stoked if he qualifies, let alone a top 100.

    I don't know, I mean no disrespect to anybody, and there are plenty of people who cross back and forth between XC and DH, but the exceptionally good people (at both) tend to stick to their own line, because thats what they're best at. I'm sure by the end of the day Julian would be going a lot faster then me if he were to jump on a big bike and get used to it at a lift resort, but I don't think there is any way he could be competitive with guys like Hill, Peat, Atherton, Minnaar, Blenki, and so on.

  49. #49
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    Here in da BC even da xc raycerz wear 5-10's and ff helmetheads. We hardcore number 1.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42

    I don't know, I mean no disrespect to anybody, and there are plenty of people who cross back and forth between XC and DH, but the exceptionally good people (at both) tend to stick to their own line, because thats what they're best at. I'm sure by the end of the day Julian would be going a lot faster then me if he were to jump on a big bike and get used to it at a lift resort, but I don't think there is any way he could be competitive with guys like Hill, Peat, Atherton, Minnaar, Blenki, and so on.
    Isn't the idea of an all mountain race somewhere between the two? Nobody, at least nobody who knows anything, is saying that elite XC racers can compete in elite DH. Of course the same can about elite DHers racing elite XC.

    To me all mountain racing is racing that is 50% technique, 50% fitness. As opposed to XC (25% technique, 75% fitness) and DH (75% technique, 25% fitness).

    The whole arguement about XC racers haves having no skills is like say DHers have no fitness. All the good DHers I ride with are really fit, just as all the good XC racers are really skilled. Of course there are many Dhers with horrible fitness, and many XCers with limited skills, and that is why they struggle in their chosen sport.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard
    And who knows, XC rider just might do great at this - whatever "this" turns out to be. My guess is that it will just create another new type of bicycle athlete, which would be cool. Tomac? Herbold? yeah, they might just do great at such an event, both were very versatile riders/athletes. They were unique, along with a handful of others...
    The top riders definitely do both well, that's why they're so fast on the courses. Did you hear (in the US) the announcer just about swallow his tongue when he saw some of Absolon's moves at the Olympics? Have you been to a big race recently and watched the top XC pros just show off? Also read LMN's comments...

    Still, we could be onto something. Sauser says he prefers riding "enduro." The problem being there's no money in it.

    I guess the question then becomes how do we make an event that the XC/Road guys won't come out and compete and win in? Or if they do, you can neutralize them. In many of the regional races by me (SW USA), the top roadies come out and whip the majority of mtb'ers even though they hardly ride their mtb's. Unfortunately (maybe?) they're fast enough to jump off their bikes and run through a very techy section faster than most can ride it and they definately open big gaps on the climbs and straight single track.

    OTOH, you don't want to make the course into a trials course where these guys would dominate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4P3yp6mFfY) or a course that becomes a pure DH'ers course. There are plenty of whistler vid's around here..

    It seems like the All Mountain Race would need to be some sort of hybrid of technique points and time. Maybe adapt some cycle cross or mogul skiing type rules to the timed race event: miss an obstacle get a time deduction along with deductions for form. Or maybe just have a combination of events where you accumulate points at each event and an eventual winner is declared after the last one.

    Or maybe just run bandit events inviting the AM community and see what morphs...

  52. #52
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    Yeah but you got lifts!
    I reckon point-to-point races, A-B, over a course that has everything. I reckon twowheelsdown has it the bestest so far

  53. #53
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    I always thoguht it would be cool to have a stage race where each racer only got one bike for all the stages. Hill climb stage, downhill stage, short track stage, long XC stage, skills stage, beer stage, that race would be sweet.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollswithpogies
    I always thoguht it would be cool to have a stage race where each racer only got one bike for all the stages. Hill climb stage, downhill stage, short track stage, long XC stage, skills stage, beer stage, that race would be sweet.
    Making the cost of entrance (or ability to be competitive) prohibitive tends to drive competition down. Its not really that fun if only 8 people can afford the 20 bikes it takes to competitively race.

    Anyway, the mega-avalanche and downieville seem to be some of the cooler races going on right now. You need super high endurance and fitness for both, and its any mans game, from the super fit xc'ers to the DH'ers to the tweeners. I think its very very difficult to design a race that you end at the same place you started, and have it not be dominated by XC bikes/guys. Downieville is one of the few I've seen, and that they've successfully managed is pretty cool. For the most part though, a super long DH with lots of gnar, and lots of uphill and climbs thrown in seems alot easier to manage.

    edit: another problem here thats not getting much attention is marketability. Its hard to find promoters/make a successful race if the only people interested are the people doing it. Its why race promoters love 4x/DS, despite 4x sucking and everybody who races it hating it, because its a short track, its easy to get a ton of spectators, everybody can see the entire race, and its easy to televise. Large groups of people = spending lots of money. Not many spectators when there is 50 miles of ground to be covered. For the riders, these enduro events are amazing, fun, exciting, and a true challenge of mountain biking abilities. For sponsors, promoters... not so much. With the ability to heli film mega-avalanches, tons of riders, lots of tech/mech support, they're here to stay and its easy to promote them and get lots of people in the same spot.

    Its making short track with obstacles and repeat laps with penalties seems to be a pretty viable way to increase visibility and keep large groups of people in the same spot.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Interesting. Design a race for my bike instead of a bike for a race.

    Why stop with my bike? They should also design the race so that it favors my extra stomach flab. Maybe a refrigerated section where all those sub-10% body fat guys have to stop and put on an extra layer.
    I think you are missing the point. It is not about making races that out of shape people can win It is about making some contests that represent more of what actual mountain bikers do.

    I can't speak for everyone, but there are a lot of riders that avoid doing the uphills on a fire road, and instead take the single track up.(me for one) And they like the challenge of cleaning something their friends can't. And for a lot of riders to be able to do this, they are not riding bikes/tires that are closer to road bikes than to the trail bikes/tires that most riders are buying and using.

    There are mountain bikers out there, that when they come to a hill that is very hard to climb, they don't just get off the bike and run up.(me for example) I used to ride with a guy that would brag how he left me behind. Well yeah, he would run up a techy climb, and ride off, while I rode back down it and tried it 4 times while as he was pedaling away

    There is more to mountain biking skill then aerobic fitness. There are some riders out there that can climb up some amazing things, but they don't get rewarded in a race for cleaning a nasty hill. I would like to see these kind of skills rewarded in such a way that the contest winner would have to have more than just "roadie fitness", but also some skills that relate to the type of riding that most of us do, which is trail riding/exploring/and attempting to ride challenging obstacles.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    I think you are missing the point. It is not about making races that out of shape people can win It is about making some contests that represent more of what actual mountain bikers do.
    Seems like insecurity (maybe not yourself, but in the bigger picture) to me. Who cares about racing? Why do you have to "race" to know you did good on a tech climb or descent? You are right that a lot of us don't get the point. The more in-shape rider is going to be faster, even if you make a few more climbs than they do. And the guy on a low-travel XC bike that has "balls" will scream down the downhills AND uphills and still beat your time. So who the hell cares if johnny-racerboy finishes a trail faster than you?

    There are no races that you're going to win on an "all mountain bike". Even if it's held on an "all mountain" course. That's kind of the point, it's a jack-of-all trades, it's not going to be as fast on the uphill, and it's not going to be as good as a DH bike on the downhills.

    I'm not a big fan of any mountain bike racing, let alone XC, but you seem to indicate that it doesn't take any skills to XC race, or that they never encounter any technical sections. That's far from the truth. Yeah, some races and senarios do fit that stereotype, but it's not the rule.
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  57. #57
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    All mountain races needs to happen and I think it will at some point.
    I don't see it happening this season. Isn't Super-d supposed to be an
    All mountain type of race? Even though if you ask 100 different people
    What Super-d is you get a boat load of different answers.

    I'm not going to fuel the XCer's vs. DHer's vs. clydes.
    But I do know this.
    It’s the bikes that should start the rule making.

    Bikes should be spec'd as this….
    Weight 27lbs---37lbs
    Front travel 5.5"---8.5"
    Rear travel 5.5"---7.5"
    Hard tails should have to run a triple clamp with at least 7.5"
    Tires minimum with 2.1"
    Drive train min 2X8 no front chain guides.

    The way that I think this is going to stick is the way mountain biking started.
    Just a few good friends trying to out do one an other. Then calling it racing.
    Then getting organized.
    next time

    [QUOTE=spazzy] Might as well sell your bikes, E-riding is much more productive.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTF-IDK
    It’s the bikes that should start the rule making.

    Bikes should be spec'd as this….
    Weight 27lbs---37lbs
    Front travel 5.5"---8.5"
    Rear travel 5.5"---7.5"
    Hard tails should have to run a triple clamp with at least 7.5"
    Tires minimum with 2.1"
    Drive train min 2X8 no front chain guides.
    Those kind of rules can quickly become out of date and frustrating for riders as the rules lag behind the trends.

    Just as an example, many XC rules specified a max wheel and tire diameter of 26" because the rules were made before people had thought of 29" mountain bikes (never mind that a big 26" tire can be closer to 27" in diameter anyway). That one frustrated a lot of people.

  59. #59
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    those "rules" were to be as vague as I could be. I am by no means some kind of race promoter or official.

    But I think if you go much out side those "rules" (at least by today's standards) then you are not talking ALL MOUNTAIN any more.
    next time

    [QUOTE=spazzy] Might as well sell your bikes, E-riding is much more productive.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTF-IDK
    Bikes should be spec'd as this….
    Weight 27lbs---37lbs
    Front travel 5.5"---8.5"
    Rear travel 5.5"---7.5"
    Hard tails should have to run a triple clamp with at least 7.5"
    Tires minimum with 2.1"
    Drive train min 2X8 no front chain guides.
    Why the bike restrictions? Restricting the bikes like that favours riders with less techical skills.

    If I have mad skills and can ride a sketchy XC bike over the nasiest lines then why should I be forced to use something else that is slower in other areas?

    A good all mountain course should make a rider choose the bike that is appropriate for there skill level. A rider with weaker technical skills may choose a bigger bike that is easier to ride, but pedals a bit slower. A rider with strong technical skills may pick a bike that pedals quicker but is tougher to ride in techy terrain.

    Really that is how XC racers should choose their bikes. Strong technical riders go with super light ultra fast hardtail, while the weak technical riders go with a dually or a 29er.

  61. #61
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    XC Vs. AM.... blah, blah, blah... Racing is racing... wanna ride your "am" bike in a xc race, go ahead... be last.

    I dont know what xc racing is for some of you guys, but our races involve almost everything our trail systems have to offer.

    Both are the came crap, i'd just say xc involves more training, dedication, and much faster...
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    "wanna ride your "am" bike in a xc race, go ahead... be last"

    LOL, maybe that's cos the courses are designed for 20th Century bikes

  63. #63
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    Some of you kids should go to an XC race and take a spin around the course (if you can) before you start commenting on the easiness of XC races.

    A good place to start is Holiday Farm in Dalton MA. You also might try the site of last year's Norba Nationals - Mt Snow in Vt.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorfish
    Yeah, I did a lot of MTB racing in the late 80's and it could be pretty technical. We didn't really have different categories of MTB back then. It was all the same.

    I think that's probably why I get all bent when I read people talking down about XC riders/racing like they can hardly even ride a bike. I just never think of MTB or XC as some flat, straight, smooth fire road. I see it as the old days, the same as AM minus big jumps and drops.

    This is how I feel as well! When I was racing there was no difference between AM and XC. I ride XC and AM on my "XC racing" bike.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I'd be all over a race like this. Here on the east coast we have a couple of long races and some 24 hour stuff which is ok but it's pure XC. I did some of those races a couple years back on a 6x6 but it was just silly. I ended up picking an XC rig just for those races. I would love to come across a race that would scare the crap out of you if you were on an XC bike. Something that would take like 5 or 6 hours to complete with techy climbs and gnarly downhills. A race that would reward someone with a mix of Downhill/Freeride level tech skills and XC/Roadie level of aerobics. Me and my buds have a couple of group rides that are like this every year. Would be cool to have an official race like this.
    That statement is all MONEY!!!!! I bet I would ride my XC rig for it, LOL, its all I own.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Seems like insecurity (maybe not yourself, but in the bigger picture) to me.
    I'm not a big fan of any mountain bike racing, let alone XC, but you seem to indicate that it doesn't take any skills to XC race, or that they never encounter any technical sections. That's far from the truth. Yeah, some races and senarios do fit that stereotype, but it's not the rule.
    I'm not insecure at all. I used to let that guy run away down the trail while I tried a tough uphill multiple times. I knew I could outride him, and I got my pleasure from cleaning a hill that he would not even try. If anything he was insecure by taking off, trying to use that time to get ahead. I just let him go and had my fun.

    And if you read my other post above you will see that at the very end, I do say that it is not that XC guys are not skilled

    I would like to get to see those skills in a different type of contest that would have a trials guy passing an XC guy because he cleaned a hill and the XC guy did not and got held up at the penalty section. Then a dh guy pulls up after railing a long, very technical down. And maybe it gets decided by a sprint finish, and who decides to gap the last jump?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by hado_pv
    Some of you kids should go to an XC race and take a spin around the course (if you can) before you start commenting on the easiness of XC races.

    A good place to start is Holiday Farm in Dalton MA. You also might try the site of last year's Norba Nationals - Mt Snow in Vt.
    I'm not a kid, thanks. Maybe some of you "kids" should challenge yourselves a little more on the technical stuff, maybe learn to wheelie or bunnyhop without clips, and pay less attention to spandex, grams, and heart rate monitors lol...

    I have. I've ridden the 1990 worlds course at Purgatory. I have also raced the Hermosa Creek Classic. I've been on other XC courses. I've also been on trails that are not necessarily DH runs, but are quite a bit more challenging technically. These are the trails that I'm suggesting could be models for a race an "AM" race course.

    If someone can dismount and run down through a techy section faster than they can ride it, then that section is not techy enough - try hauling arse down Portal trail carrying your bike.... But, to each their own. I thought the point is to stay on the bike and negotiate whatever it is in front of you. Which is something I don't understand about Cyclocross - I thinks its pretty cool, but I'd want to bunnyhop all those hurdles they throw in there...

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    I think you are missing the point. It is not about making races that out of shape people can win It is about making some contests that represent more of what actual mountain bikers do.

    I can't speak for everyone, but there are a lot of riders that avoid doing the uphills on a fire road, and instead take the single track up.(me for one) And they like the challenge of cleaning something their friends can't. And for a lot of riders to be able to do this, they are not riding bikes/tires that are closer to road bikes than to the trail bikes/tires that most riders are buying and using.

    There are mountain bikers out there, that when they come to a hill that is very hard to climb, they don't just get off the bike and run up.(me for example) I used to ride with a guy that would brag how he left me behind. Well yeah, he would run up a techy climb, and ride off, while I rode back down it and tried it 4 times while as he was pedaling away

    There is more to mountain biking skill then aerobic fitness. There are some riders out there that can climb up some amazing things, but they don't get rewarded in a race for cleaning a nasty hill. I would like to see these kind of skills rewarded in such a way that the contest winner would have to have more than just "roadie fitness", but also some skills that relate to the type of riding that most of us do, which is trail riding/exploring/and attempting to ride challenging obstacles.
    Sorry, I don't think my point got across quite right. I was joking about the the flabby belly part (at least the part about planning an event around it). However, my point was that it is kind of the same thing designing a course around an AM bike. Most AM bikes are simply not designed with the intention of getting from A to B in the shortest period of time. That's not the point of AM bikes or even a lot of trail bikes. AM bikes are designed to get there with the most fun and creativity, and freedom.

    I think this gets to the point of why I think an "AM" race is a little silly. I think for a lot of people, the whole point of having a 33 lb 6" bike is to do whatever the hell you want to do, and forget about the stupid stopwatch. I really enjoy attempting to clean sections, up or down, even if it is slower, and even if I need to go back a few times. I like standing there watching my buddy try the same. I like hauling a slower bike up the hill so that I can have more fun on the way down, but it never occurs to me whether I am overall faster or slower.

    If I was concerned with my lap times, I'd be on an xc fs bike, because I have yet to find a trail with equal climbing an descending on which I would not be faster on an xc bike (keep in mind that "fastest time" does not mean "enjoyed it the most"). From the suggestions i am reading here, I am guessing this is true of a lot of people, because most suggestions involve more descending than climbing, or at least not making climbing times count for as much. Well, what's the point of that? 98% of my rides involve equal climbing and descending, not shuttles. Climbing is half of an "ALL mountain" ride. Pedaling through flat twisties is also part of an AM ride, but is certainly faster on an xc bike. Let's face it, when you start having to design a race specifically around a certain type of bike, with points and penalties carefully arranged to favor it, that that should tell you something about the purpose of that bike, especially when these event descriptions don't even mirror what we are actually doing. Super D is NOT like AM riding. They don't count the trip up to the top.

    I think the problem with an "AM" race is that there really is no "XC" terrain and "AM" terrain. It's how you ride it and what your priorities are. Is your goal to be the first one up, down, and back to the parking lot in the least amount of time? You are an xc racer, I don't care where (or what) you are riding, and this is what xc race bikes are designed to do the best. Do you wait at the top for your buddies, pick the most interesting lines (up and down), sometimes go back and try them again? Does something besides the time on your watch back at the parking lot matter? You sound like an AM rider to me, regardless of where (or what) you ride, and this is what an AM bike is designed for.

    Finally, I think that a lot of people are really ignorant about what many "xc" races actually are. Yes, some are dirt roads and featureless single track. Some, however, are as technically demanding (up and down) as anything else I ever ride. Guess who is winning these most technically challenging races? Guys/gals on short travel xc bikes.

    If you want races over terrain that is representative of what we ride our AM bikes on, they already do that. I'ts called xc racing. Same terrain, different focus.

  69. #69
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    I think kapusta (and some others) kinda sum up my feeling towards AM.

    All Mountain to me is just simply 'Mountain Biking'. Back when I first started riding a MTB, I'd do just that - hop on my bike and go ride in the mountains. It was about having fun, exploring, and (I know this sounds weird) relaxing.
    I still do the same today, except now I have a 6" bike that I can have even more fun on. If you can't stop and take a break - maybe have a beer, or 'safety meeting' or simply take some photos - it's not the AM 'lifestyle' to me.
    Most of the trails I ride on (AM style) also have XC races on them every year - And these trails ain't "easy" - Whiskeytown NP, or Bidwell MP. If you want to beat a stopwatch, that's cool - It just isn't what AM means to me. (In fact quite the opposite). I'm sure AM means different things to different people - but that's kinda my point.

    This has been a good debate to watch So, please...carry on
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  70. #70
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    Better go back to the Passion forum, where people still enjoy "just riding" and taking a break when they feel like it

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    Hey here's a radical thought - why not race mountain bikes on a mountain?
    I'm not talking K2, but something with a doable peak. Start at A, ride to top, finish at B near the bottom.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    I'm not insecure at all. I used to let that guy run away down the trail while I tried a tough uphill multiple times. I knew I could outride him, and I got my pleasure from cleaning a hill that he would not even try. If anything he was insecure by taking off, trying to use that time to get ahead. I just let him go and had my fun.

    And if you read my other post above you will see that at the very end, I do say that it is not that XC guys are not skilled

    I would like to get to see those skills in a different type of contest that would have a trials guy passing an XC guy because he cleaned a hill and the XC guy did not and got held up at the penalty section. Then a dh guy pulls up after railing a long, very technical down. And maybe it gets decided by a sprint finish, and who decides to gap the last jump?
    I think I know what you are getting at: Rewarding a more diverse skill set. That makes some sense. I think the part that throws it off for me is when you mention it being something that favors a trail or AM bike. I think what you will find if you include gnarly climbs that you must clean along with some timed element, that people are going to be doing those fine on xc bikes. If that guy was running past the hill that you were climbing, it had nothing to do with what he was riding. I have never encountered a climb that I would not rather climb with a light 3-4" xc bike than my 32 lb 5.5" bike, whether it be an issue of cleaning it, or how fast I do it. It is the price I pay for a fun ride down.

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    I say to each their own. My XC bike has grown from a 4" travel f/s to a 6" travel f/s. The new bike still weighs about the same as the older one, but has more travel and with shock advancement it pedals the same.

    I go into one or two races a year just to say I did it and to keep myself from shuttling on my FR bike all year. As mentioned by jon_boy the Vancouver/ Squamish area XC riding is quite technical for both climbs and decents and usually everything in between. It can be done on a 72 degree 3" XC race bike, and usually the people winning the race are riding those, but for me it is way more fun on a bigger bike. A few years ago at the Test of Metal race a couple riders completed the course with full on freeride Knolly's. Regardless of how well the bike pedals, the weight of the bike of the 67km race would do in most riders.

    That said, I give full kudos to the XC racers that can hammer up the climbs then decend the steep and technical with the seat full extended on a twitchy XC race bike. Courses will very depending on location and available terrain, that is why the top XC racers have different bikes, and will ride the least amount of bike that the course will allow.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I'd be all over a race like this. Here on the east coast we have a couple of long races and some 24 hour stuff which is ok but it's pure XC. I did some of those races a couple years back on a 6x6 but it was just silly. I ended up picking an XC rig just for those races. I would love to come across a race that would scare the crap out of you if you were on an XC bike. Something that would take like 5 or 6 hours to complete with techy climbs and gnarly downhills. A race that would reward someone with a mix of Downhill/Freeride level tech skills and XC/Roadie level of aerobics. Me and my buds have a couple of group rides that are like this every year. Would be cool to have an official race like this.
    I think that kind of race sounds like a good idea. However, any course you come up with, if you are racing from beginning to end, and it ends at the same elevation it starts at, the people winning it will, for the most part, be on light xc fs bikes, not 6x6's. Anything that will scare the crap out of you on an xc bike will do the same on a 6x6. No climb I have ever seen would not be easier and faster on a light 3-4" XC FS than on a 6x6.

    You and your buddies may have a much better time on your route on 6x6 bikes (which is really the point of an AM bike, isn't it?), but if push came to shove, and all that mattered was finishing first, you would find the bikes getting more and more xc-like.

    There are several races in my area that take place in some pretty rough terrain. Trails that I much prefer my AM bike over a XC bike. It's just more fun and I am beat up a lot lot less. But who wins the races? For the most part, people on xc bikes.

    AM vs XC has much less to do with the terrain than it does one's priorities on that terrain.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by oo00oo
    Hey here's a radical thought - why not race mountain bikes on a mountain?
    I'm not talking K2, but something with a doable peak. Start at A, ride to top, finish at B near the bottom.
    That isn't really different than any normal XC race. They may not have one long climb and one long descent, but multiple thousands of feet of climbing is common.
    Anyway, if there is even close to as much climbing as descending then the race will be decided in the climbs, and will therefore become another fitness contest. The gaps that can open on a 2000ft climb are very hard to close in a downhill that only takes 1/4" of the time

    I agree 100% with kapusta. I ride for fun, I pick the hard lines, I redo sections, etc. As soon as you add a stopwatch into the equation you give me a reason to behave differently. In XC races, I've carried my bike over fun stuff I would normally ride because I didn't want to risk a bad crash/flat/busted parts/etc when I've already put in so much effort and time

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard
    If someone can dismount and run down through a techy section faster than they can ride it, then that section is not techy enough - try hauling arse down Portal trail carrying your bike.... But, to each their own. I thought the point is to stay on the bike and negotiate whatever it is in front of you. Which is something I don't understand about Cyclocross - I thinks its pretty cool, but I'd want to bunnyhop all those hurdles they throw in there...
    You can run most things faster then you can ride it but it isn't necessarily faster in the long run. Yeah first time you run, you may make time, but running is a lot more tiring then riding. As the race progresses the rider who can ride everything is going to be much fresher.

    Plus a good dismount is a skill. I rode with this guy once who could dismount at speed in rough terrain. We were coming down a switchback descent and each switchback he would do dismount pivot and remount. It was so much faster then riding around the switchback. When I tried the same move I ended up on my face. When I asked the guy about it he said "anybody can ride slowly around a switchback, but to dismount at high speed, now that takes practice."

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    Most XC races around here, the first lap there is very little walking, but by the time the last lap rolls around (3rd, 4th or 5th depending on class) many more sections are hiked/run. The techy stuff just has too much margin for error, and the hills seem much steeper after you have been going all out for 2 hours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    That isn't really different than any normal XC race. They may not have one long climb and one long descent, but multiple thousands of feet of climbing is common.
    I didn't mean that A & B would be in the same location Tweak the start point so it requires a good mix between fitness & skills.

    I have much respect for the XC racers. It just seems reading this thread that the races don't reflect how an increasing number of people ride any more. That's why the OP said they'd roadifyed it. Hence the drop in popularity.

    How can it be cross country any way when you end up back where you started?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by oo00oo
    How can it be cross country any way when you end up back where you started?
    Whoa, that's deep

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by oo00oo
    How can it be cross country any way when you end up back where you started?
    to be pedantic (because I enjoy that), here's what the dictionary says:

    2 : proceeding over countryside (as across fields and through woods) and not by roads
    3 : of or relating to racing or skiing over the countryside instead of over a track or run

  81. #81
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    what was # 1?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    what was # 1?
    Why would that matter if it doesn't help my point

    1 : extending or moving across a country <a cross–country concert tour>
    If we went by that definition the XC races better go from coast to coast.

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    haha...I had a feeling that's what it going to be...If you're gonna be a cross country racer....start with a small country...say Denmark... then work your way up to the bigger ones like the US
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    LOL you got it, see y'all at the vatican city AM throwdown

  85. #85
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    Bikes for all mountain racing!

    What kinds of bikes do you use for all mountain racing. I ride a Yeti 575 and was wondering if that may be too burly a ride.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    I think that kind of race sounds like a good idea. However, any course you come up with, if you are racing from beginning to end, and it ends at the same elevation it starts at, the people winning it will, for the most part, be on light xc fs bikes, not 6x6's. Anything that will scare the crap out of you on an xc bike will do the same on a 6x6. No climb I have ever seen would not be easier and faster on a light 3-4" XC FS than on a 6x6.
    You may be right to an extent. I don't think people would win these types of races on 6x6 bikes either. But maybe on 5x5 inch bikes with a light build, or 4 inch bikes, rather than hardtails with 3 inch travel and semislicks.

    And maybe they would have to use something more akin to a trail tire, in order to make some techy climbs. Maybe not a 2.35 but maybe at least a 2.1 with actual tread.

    Like some of you, I don't worry about the stopwatch when riding. I stop and go back down hills and try different lines, because cleaning a section is almost always more important to me than how fast I ride. It would just be neat to see if this aspect of mountain biking(cleaning techy climbs) could find a way to be seen and rewarded in a race, so that we could get to watch these racers clean some gnarly uphills, and have it be more about staying on the bike and riding everything.

  87. #87
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    ALL MOUNTAIN?
    What is with all this talk about XC race bikes and racer's?
    Isn't this the ALLMOUNITAIN thread?
    If there is going to be an ALLMOUNTAIN race I think it needs to be on an
    All mountain bike as defined by today's standards.
    next time

    [QUOTE=spazzy] Might as well sell your bikes, E-riding is much more productive.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    . It would just be neat to see if this aspect of mountain biking(cleaning techy climbs) could find a way to be seen and rewarded in a race, so that we could get to watch these racers clean some gnarly uphills, and have it be more about staying on the bike and riding everything.
    Yeah, I think that's where this is going

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    My team mates and I ran several point to point AM races,tech rock gardens and features,steep shoots,drops,gaps and climbs.lots of fun and challenging.everyone had a great time and am often asked to have another.in the past year I have been building more AM specific trails.we have about a twelve hundred acres of city and county land to play with.this area is very mtn bike friendly.and allow us to build and maintain trails.there could be a race here in the near future,with all the new trails built recently the course options are unlimited.AM riding has come full circle back in the day it was all AM as were the races,and then the courses got gentrified to accommodate road/mtn bikers with limited tech skills all spin and climb.and would faint at logs,rock gardens and steep shoots.AM riding is MTN biking! you would expect challenging obstacles when riding in mtn's and forests thats the point of mtn biking the challenge!now we have all day ridable bikes to match any terrain,there should be a all AM mtn bike series,seems to me the time is ripe.

  90. #90
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    Don't build a big rule book.

    1. You need a clear concept: Point to point? Loop with timed sections? Judges for Artistic Impression? Amount of beer consumed? Do you want a fun event, a serious race, or can you manage both at the same time? (how big a crew do you need for the different stufff?)

    2. Dont limit the bikes: build a route that is challenging and interesting. If the winner rides a rigid fixie or a DH bike, either he's an awsome rider or you need to rethink the route for next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You are SOOOO phucking clueless. At the top level XC racers are really good bike riders, have to be. The best XC racer in the world Julien Absalon rips on a bike, his brother dominates the Mega Avalanche series. Adam Craig, Ross Schnell, Todd Wells, all these guys would smoke you so bad on technical stuff you'd get off your bike and start crying.

    I saw absalom at the world champs in 2004 in Les Gets France part of the xc course came down one of the established downhills and down the permanent 4x course, He ripped it getting air and styling the jumps too and on a 20lb head down long stem xc race bike. No doubt he can put some downhillers to shame.


    As for his brother , try telling rene wildhaber (repeated megavalance winner) that Absalom dominates.

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    the current crop of "all mountain" races mentioned above are either endurance races like the trans rockies best suited to a long travel xc bike or mainly downhill orientated.

    The megavalanche to my mind is an all moutain race because it has climbs and suits a 150mm or 160mm bike but it is still predominantly fielded by DH racers. This years course has less climbing too.

    I think the Keilder forestt round of the Avalanche cup is a truer all mountain bike race but maybe if they timed the ups too it would be best.

    Essentially we want it to be shorter than an xc race but far more technical.

    There is a race at Whinlatter Forest this weekend, that might fit the bill

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    I'm thinking a timed loop one lap 15 to 20 miles in length next time,we had go arounds that would cost you more time if you chose not to do the extreme tech stuff.the idea was to have a course that would challenge everyone at any level and give you the confidence by example of others to improve your skills in a race format.the idea is to keep it simple,challenging and fun.

  94. #94
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    so I tried startin' somethin' like this a while back on the US east coast but do to lack of support and legality issues I forgoed my plans... be pretty sweet if a bunch of us just picked a mountain (preferably on the east coast because thats where I am ) and just met up there, picked a course and had a blast with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by readingracing
    I'm thinking a timed loop one lap 15 to 20 miles in length next time,we had go arounds that would cost you more time if you chose not to do the extreme tech stuff.the idea was to have a course that would challenge everyone at any level and give you the confidence by example of others to improve your skills in a race format.the idea is to keep it simple,challenging and fun.
    Those "freeride" race's , that's what they called them, because that was before the term "all mountain" was used, the Reading guys put on were awesome!

    15 to 20 miles of Reading style techy sections, with go arounds for beginers... Bring it back!!!

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    I think there should be a "balls" section (no no kiddies not like in chuckie cheese's) like some moderate Freeriding stuff, drops, skinnies, and if you could complete it you would be awarded points which would equate to time taken off or added to your final time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickspeed16
    I think there should be a "balls" section (no no kiddies not like in chuckie cheese's) like some moderate Freeriding stuff, drops, skinnies, and if you could complete it you would be awarded points which would equate to time taken off or added to your final time.

    Basically the "balls" sections, like a drop, jump or a skinny, if done correctly would be faster then the go around, which would save you time.

    The Reading "freeride/AM" races had these. You could pass several people at a time if you rode the "balls" section with out crashing.

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    Hey Todd,

    You should see all the new tech stuff,I've built,some really balls up bolder sections,with no room for era,have a trail called Dane's wild log ride if you like mulltible log overs you will be fulfilled and all the DH runs are mint,bunch of young bloods keeping it good there.the only restriction is skinnies other wise the city and county allow us free reign.I've been involved in several meetings with officials and they are very impressed with the work and dedication to promoting this area as a mtn bike destination.I have the go ahead for a race,it's just a matter of putting it all together and doing it right.later,Dane.

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    Dane, sounds like a few of us will be up on sat for some shuttling. Can't wait to see the new stuff!

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    I'm not saying every race is easy for normal racers. I ride expert class and its hard like AM. I'm talking about pro racing. Sponsered racer where thats there job. like the sea otter. I think it was a few years ago when someone rode I think the super D course on a road bike, and won the race. He did it just to piss them off. It was the year they started letting 29er in the same class as 26ers. It called mountain biking. So what ever the natural terrian is that how the trail should be. Not make the trial as smooth as possible.

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