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  1. #1
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    allmountain racing.

    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.

  2. #2
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    Megavalanche, downieville....races are coming up.

  3. #3
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    XC racing is lame! We're working on the urban downhill event I talked with you about! Hopefully it'll be held where I said it would be held and we're going to start working on the presentation [risks and liabilities] to city council soon.
    "If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." ~ J. Whittaker

  4. #4
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    XC racing used to be pretty rough compared to what it is now, at least around here. I blame the UCI World Cup series. The WC in Canmore back in the late 90's was considered a "technical" course, and that was after they chopped all the roots out of the climbs and widened the trail by about 4'. For an AM race, it should be a single 40km loop featuring some or all of the following:
    - creek crossings
    - scree
    - babyheads
    - loose gravel
    - sand
    - roots
    - roots
    - more roots
    - grassy meadows
    - washouts
    - wet leaves
    - cow ****
    - horse ****
    - abusive hikers
    - bear[s]
    - trail tread no wider than 3'
    - average 10% grade for the loop [4000m gain over 40 km]
    - no outside technical assistance, but you can get stuff from your fellow racers
    - no feed stations
    - clock stops after you chug a beer and eat a slice of leftover pizza at the finish

    Sounds pretty reasonable to me...
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  5. #5
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    ^^^ you forgot 'safety meetings'
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  6. #6
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    Yeah, I did a lot of MTB racing in the late 80's and it could be pretty technical. We didn't really have different categories of MTB back then. It was all the same.

    I think that's probably why I get all bent when I read people talking down about XC riders/racing like they can hardly even ride a bike. I just never think of MTB or XC as some flat, straight, smooth fire road. I see it as the old days, the same as AM minus big jumps and drops.

  7. #7
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    You need to get up to BC and race... there's a couple coming up that I wouldn't ride on an XC bike;

    Squamish Gear Jammer

    North Shore Bike Fest

    Both of those are tough races and the Squamish one is all singletrack on great trails that are technically challenging. I'll be riding them on my new Remedy. Should be the perfect set up. I won't break records, but I'll have a lot of fun.

    Oh and it also goes to show that BC isn't all about big gap jumps and riding skinny logs, there's a LOT of great epic riding to be done on superb single track that is technically challenging.

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    Haha, didnt a certain someone chug a beer and eat a pizza mid race at a certain event recently? LOL.
    "If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." ~ J. Whittaker

  9. #9
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    I was thinking about how to shoot this down, but perhaps there could be some legs on this.

    Maybe a minimum weight, such as 30 pounds, minimum travel, and then everything else goes. Courses made accordingly.

  10. #10
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    My teammate broke a khs crest frame during an xc race this year, I don't think that would happen on course where "they chopped all the roots out of the climbs and widened the trail by about 4 feet."

    not trying to start an argument, just sayin that there are still some race courses out there that "bring the gnar," or at least a little bit of gnar.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  11. #11
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    Anything here in the EAST SIDE!

    Besides Massanutten are there any super D like races on the east coast... anyone heard of new ones... ANYTHING!
    "This sticker is dangerous and inconvienent, but I do love Fig Newtons"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    Most of the local xc races around here are anything but road races. Some are downright brutal in the technical dept. Rocky, rooty, steep ups and downs, extended climbs and descents.

    Thing is, assuming you are starting and ending on the same elevation, I can't see wanting an AM rig to race any of them, even though it is what I would have more fun with, and what I like to ride them on now. I'd choose a XC bike for pretty much any of them if there was someone with a stopwatch at the end of it.

  13. #13
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    If not for the road sections (dirt & pavement) the Breckenridge Firecracker 50 could be considered a great AM race course. Most of the singletrack sections are pretty rough and steep. It is the Marathon National Championship. Here's to hoping Mark will reroute and eliminate some of the road climb (turn off Boreas Pass Rd onto Aspen Tunnel and climb singletrack all the way to Baker's Tank).

    Edit: Nevermind, I forgot that the gnarliest part, Nightmare on Baldy is gone now
    Keep the Country country.

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    Ya the races here in texas are hard. But you go to a pro race and a first time rider can race it. I think if you want to be pro you should ride pro trail not novice trails. Other then speed I would put myself against any pro cross country racer and more then likely win.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    Other then speed I would put myself against any pro cross country racer and more then likely win.
    Win what? What is there besides speed in a race? Best outfit?

    Heck, other than cooking, I am just as good as the top chefs in the world.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Win what? What is there besides speed in a race? Best outfit?

    Heck, other than cooking, I am just as good as the top chefs in the world.
    hahahahaha.

  17. #17
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    I'd be all over a race like this. Here on the east coast we have a couple of long races and some 24 hour stuff which is ok but it's pure XC. I did some of those races a couple years back on a 6x6 but it was just silly. I ended up picking an XC rig just for those races. I would love to come across a race that would scare the crap out of you if you were on an XC bike. Something that would take like 5 or 6 hours to complete with techy climbs and gnarly downhills. A race that would reward someone with a mix of Downhill/Freeride level tech skills and XC/Roadie level of aerobics. Me and my buds have a couple of group rides that are like this every year. Would be cool to have an official race like this.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak
    I'd be all over a race like this. Here on the east coast we have a couple of long races and some 24 hour stuff which is ok but it's pure XC. I did some of those races a couple years back on a 6x6 but it was just silly. I ended up picking an XC rig just for those races. I would love to come across a race that would scare the crap out of you if you were on an XC bike. Something that would take like 5 or 6 hours to complete with techy climbs and gnarly downhills. A race that would reward someone with a mix of Downhill/Freeride level tech skills and XC/Roadie level of aerobics. Me and my buds have a couple of group rides that are like this every year. Would be cool to have an official race like this.


    Thats what i'm talking about. Most everyday riders ride all day are at least me and my bubbys do. It's not just about speed. If you want speed then downhill. But aleast even downhillers have skill.

  19. #19
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    There were also some cool sounding enduro style races in the UK last year at some of the trail centres. You had to be at the start of the prescribed DH trail at a certain time having ridden there. Yes climbed up, no shuttle. You were then timed on the DH trail and the times from each trail (5 I think) were added up. The times between runs were sufficiently tight that you had to pedal to each. Those guys were riding 6x6 bikes for that. It was reported in Dirt Magazine a few issues back.

  20. #20
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    We have lots of A-M races

    another poster mentioned 2 well-known BC races, and there are lots more:

    1) Victoria to Whistler - 7 day race Video teaser

    2) Test of Metal at Squamish - sold out 800 spots as fast as the server could handle entries: http://testofmetal.com/pages/posts/t...he-world46.php
    67 Km and 1600 M of climbing

    3) Trans Rockies: Over 600 kilometres and 12 000 vertical metres through the most rugged and majestic terrain the Canadian Rockies have to offer. ~ 6 days of very serious riding.http://www.transrockies.com/trc/

    Time to escape Texas and discover the world.


    That ought to be AM enough I think.

    Jim

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.

    You are SOOOO phucking clueless. At the top level XC racers are really good bike riders, have to be. The best XC racer in the world Julien Absalon rips on a bike, his brother dominates the Mega Avalanche series. Adam Craig, Ross Schnell, Todd Wells, all these guys would smoke you so bad on technical stuff you'd get off your bike and start crying.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  22. #22
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    Actually there's a picture of Adam Craig airing off the GLC drop at the Whistler bike park at the end of the Super D race. He's a good bike handler for sure.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You are SOOOO phucking clueless. At the top level XC racers are really good bike riders, have to be. The best XC racer in the world Julien Absalon rips on a bike, his brother dominates the Mega Avalanche series. Adam Craig, Ross Schnell, Todd Wells, all these guys would smoke you so bad on technical stuff you'd get off your bike and start crying.
    XC racer?
    NO SHIRT
    NO SHOES
    NO DICE

  24. #24
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    i rode once in marathon thru a half of my country and we went thru a one small town where cows went home from pasture. and there were about 60 of bicyclists riding on their bicycles. and cows had never seen so many riders and there were three types of cow's reactions on us.
    1. first group stopped and looked at us.
    2. run away from us
    3. run away and sh*t at a time
    so 3rd group made a real problem us to riding but it was very fun anyway despite this sh*t. when we passed those cows, guys talked about how many "sh*t mines" they activated

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff spicoli
    XC racer?
    Nope, bicycle rider.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Thing is, assuming you are starting and ending on the same elevation, I can't see wanting an AM rig to race any of them, even though it is what I would have more fun with, and what I like to ride them on now. I'd choose a XC bike for pretty much any of them if there was someone with a stopwatch at the end of it.
    And there is the thruth. If you have a course where the start and the end are on the same elevation, you just can't make it an AM race. No matter how gnarly the terrain is. The reason is if you have same amount of climbing and descending on the course you spend most of the race time climbing so a light bike (xc bike) is the fastest tool.

    The people who organice Megavalanche, (and a lot of other races with similar format in Europe), have it right. All of those races are more or less downhill, there is pedalling and even minor uphills, but mostly downhill. Those races can be done on a xc bike or on a full on dh bike, but ~6" AM bikes are fastest for the job.

    http://saabsalomonavalanchetrophy.com/uk/# (check the videos)
    http://www.avalanchecup.com/

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    I think the same guys would win.... Don't underestimate guys like Absalon and Sauser's technical ability. I've watched them do amazing things on the bike. These guys would be competative at the pro level in DH/4x/whatever. Julien's brother is a world champ marathon DH champ. Absalon won the world champ marathon xc race.

  28. #28
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    If you were riding a loop or a out and back type of race then your 4000m of vertical becomes 4000m over 20km (since you would have to end where you start) making it 20%

  29. #29
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    Damn! Pwned by the maths.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm_gunslinger
    I think the same guys would win.... Don't underestimate guys like Absalon and Sauser's technical ability. I've watched them do amazing things on the bike. These guys would be competative at the pro level in DH/4x/whatever. Julien's brother is a world champ marathon DH champ. Absalon won the world champ marathon xc race.
    No, they wouldn't. I'm not taking anything away from them, they're absolutely ripping athletes, and peak levels of fitness are probably much higher for the most part with Cross/XC/AM then with DH/4x/DS/BMX/MX, but No, very very few of them could compete in high level pro DH/4x, UCI WC status.

    Hopefully I'm not opening a can of worms here, and I hate to try and take anything away from them, because I think guys like craig, absalon, Sauser, and the list goes on, are all absolutely steller athletes and I'm sure most of them rip a DH on an XC line pretty damn well, and this is supposed to be an AM race thread, so lets keep it that way. No disrespect to the guys at all!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    ^^^ you forgot 'safety meetings'
    It isn't a true am ride without a 'safety meeting'

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    OK, here is a REAL AM race/event...........

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...nt#post5123607

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    The moto guys have enduro events which a few people mentioned.

    The event is basically some kind of loop and different sections of the course are timed, differently. If you did something for bikes you can bias the timed sections to benefit the rider on a bigger bike.

    It's basically what happens when a bunch of guys ride together.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    The moto guys have enduro events which a few people mentioned.

    The event is basically some kind of loop and different sections of the course are timed, differently. If you did something for bikes you can bias the timed sections to benefit the rider on a bigger bike.

    It's basically what happens when a bunch of guys ride together.
    And there you have it:
    http://saabsalomonavalanchetrophy.co...sentation.html

  35. #35
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    We have a National series of "Enduro" races (as in dirt bike enduro) in Finland.

    A race is a loop that you have to make within a relatively loose time (to prevent penalty time). There's several timed sections within the loop, that actually count as race time. Racers start the timed sections one by one, at one minute intervals, or so. This year, rules specify that timed sections have to end at lower altitude than they begin.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    No, they wouldn't. I'm not taking anything away from them, they're absolutely ripping athletes, and peak levels of fitness are probably much higher for the most part with Cross/XC/AM then with DH/4x/DS/BMX/MX, but No, very very few of them could compete in high level pro DH/4x, UCI WC status.

    Hopefully I'm not opening a can of worms here, and I hate to try and take anything away from them, because I think guys like craig, absalon, Sauser, and the list goes on, are all absolutely steller athletes and I'm sure most of them rip a DH on an XC line pretty damn well, and this is supposed to be an AM race thread, so lets keep it that way. No disrespect to the guys at all!
    I guess you never raced against the likes of guys like Tomac and Herebold? Tomac was a great x-country racer that you can say did well on the DH, and Herebold was a great DH'er and what has now evolved into 4x but also did well on the world level in x-country (he would crack top 20's regularly). Both were also very good at what was called short track events back then, kind of a multi-lap spectator friendly bmx race. Tomac could catch major air and do major tricks while winning these events (so could greg too).

    Julien was a great BMX'er. Also, have you seen the moves and tricks this guy can do? They're outstanding to say the least.... He is a very good freerider. He may not win DH events at the WC level, but I'm sure if it became his focus he would be someone competing at the WC events... Ditto for Sauser who, again, won the world championship marathon race (though was relegated to 2nd for irregular sprinting).

    Going back to AM "racing," my main point is these guys would still be winning....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm_gunslinger
    I guess you never raced against the likes of guys like Tomac and Herebold? Tomac was a great x-country racer that you can say did well on the DH, and Herebold was a great DH'er and what has now evolved into 4x but also did well on the world level in x-country (he would crack top 20's regularly). Both were also very good at what was called short track events back then, kind of a multi-lap spectator friendly bmx race. Tomac could catch major air and do major tricks while winning these events (so could greg too).

    Julien was a great BMX'er. Also, have you seen the moves and tricks this guy can do? They're outstanding to say the least.... He is a very good freerider. He may not win DH events at the WC level, but I'm sure if it became his focus he would be someone competing at the WC events... Ditto for Sauser who, again, won the world championship marathon race (though was relegated to 2nd for irregular sprinting).

    Going back to AM "racing," my main point is these guys would still be winning....

    Hey, now! This is am AM thread on the AM board! For purposes of discussion, pro xc-racers are spandex clad sissy-roadies, and pro level courses are all novice-level riding because that is all these pansies can handle. This just feels right in our guts, and is comforting. It has truthiness. Don't go mucking this up with all your "facts" and "real world examples" to the contrary, we don't need that kind of know-it-all attitude.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbames190
    It isn't a true am ride without a 'safety meeting'
    While I agree...

    For the spirit of this forum...it's not a true AM ride unless you are slammin a dew.
    "I'm supa-fly TNT, I'm tha guns of the navarone!"

  39. #39
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    Great thread.

    Really though, world cup XCs are not what they once were. Anybody else ride Bromont and Mt. Saint Anne last year? The courses are techy and world cup XC racers are good, they can descend single track as fast as anybody.

    For example my wife is one best XC racers in the world (Won Bromont world cup last year), her brother has been one of the best DHers in Canada (Canada Cup Champ) for the past 10 years. If they are on a single track descent he has to pin it to get a little bit of a gap.

    All that being said you could make a pretty cool All Mountain Event. A 20 minute race with more descending then climbing and some really techy lines. It would have to be a TT event though, I hate races that come down to getting the whole shot. It would be interesting to see who would come out on top at the elite level. As I said many of best XC racers have really good technical skills, and many of the top DHers are really fit and climb very fast.

  40. #40
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    I want to make a race with penalty sections.

    If you touch a foot while climbing a nasty uphill, you are stopped at the top, and held for 30 seconds, or a minute.

    This would even the playing field for good technical riders, and also for full suspension bikes, and make it worthwhile to race with trail tires, rather than semi-slicks. The bikes that could win a race like this would more resemble trail bikes than XC bikes.

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    having a rally style event with several timed sections would be ok too. have to use same bike,

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelsman
    having a rally style event with several timed sections would be ok too. have to use same bike,
    The sections would have to be short (8 minutes or less) any longer than that it become primarily a fitness test as opposed to technical skills.

  43. #43
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    Super D Races In Canada

    I would really like to do some super d races. I live in Ontario Canada does any one know if there are any around here?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_biker17
    I think they need to start up all mountain races after all that is true mountain bike racing. All they have done with cross country is make it a roadie sport. What do you think.
    Wow. People are a little touchy on the XC thing, eh? This is the All Mountain Forum, right?

    I think that might be a "crude" description, but I would tend to agree that its much more like the Tour than it is like Klunkerz.

    I mean, look at high end XC bikes, you can't pound these things on "All Mountain" trails (whatever that might mean) - they would crumble. They are designed for the courses they are raced on. XC racing is a very large reason that the marketers identified/invented the "All Mountain Category". There was niche. It has been filled. Almost. A keen race format would really be a cool thing for bikes, and would solidify the AM thing even further. Right now it just sort of floats there...

    (I realize that the marketeers did not actually "invent" all-mountain... it was just a movement that somebody was able to pigeonhole and capitalize upon).

    There's some interesting ideas about formats here so far, I think it would be cool to see this take off. I like the idea of having more down that up, and that being able to control/negotiate the bike would be a little more important than endurance.

    And who knows, XC rider just might do great at this - whatever "this" turns out to be. My guess is that it will just create another new type of bicycle athlete, which would be cool.
    Tomac? Herbold? yeah, they might just do great at such an event, both were very versatile riders/athletes. They were unique, along with a handful of others. Pro level XC racers are incredible athletes, but trying to equate all of them to Tomac et all is a bit misleading, in my opinion anyhow.

  45. #45
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    It would be nice to have a race that rewards technically skilled riders to more of a degree, than current XC races do. And challenges that make a trail bike like most of us ride a more suitable choice to use.

    I have watched XC races, and most times the climbs are hard pack fireroad. So of course an ultralight semi-slick tire bike is going to be faster. And if they reach a tough uphill it is just faster to get off and run. It does not benefit a rider to have a tire capable of climbing that one nasty section, nor can he climb it faster than it can be ran. I hate seeing mountain bikers run up a section and not even try to ride it!

    I would like to see sections made that if you can't climb it, then you don't continue, just like they do in the motorcycle race "Last Man Standing". Or make it so that if you do dab, or walk the section, then you get a major time penalty at the top, and have to stand there and watch the riders that cleaned the hill, motor on past you.

    Then you could throw in some other things, like how about a downhill option? One path takes you down through a nasty, challenging downhill, the other way goes around and is much longer, so if you go that way you lose time. Throw in a gap jump with a ride around. There are lots of possibilities, and it would be much more interesting to watch then the current XC snooze fests. Why do you think XC does not get any TV coverage. It's just not that exciting to watch.

    A race like this would even things out. A bike with "real" mountain tires and rear suspension would be able to climb up things a semi-slick hardtail would not. And you would have to have some skills to take that semi-slick, half road bike, down a really rocky nasty downhill, and it might just break in half or taco a rim trying to go through a rock garden or do a jump. I am not saying XC guys aren't skilled, but lets see those skills.I would like to see some reward to those technical uphill masters.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    It would be nice to have a race that rewards technically skilled riders to more of a degree, than current XC races do. And challenges that make a trail bike like most of us ride a more suitable choice to use.

    I have watched XC races, and most times the climbs are hard pack fireroad. So of course an ultralight semi-slick tire bike is going to be faster. And if they reach a tough uphill it is just faster to get off and run. It does not benefit a rider to have a tire capable of climbing that one nasty section, nor can he climb it faster than it can be ran. I hate seeing mountain bikers run up a section and not even try to ride it!

    I would like to see sections made that if you can't climb it, then you don't continue, just like they do in the motorcycle race "Last Man Standing". Or make it so that if you do dab, or walk the section, then you get a major time penalty at the top, and have to stand there and watch the riders that cleaned the hill, motor on past you.

    Then you could throw in some other things, like how about a downhill option? One path takes you down through a nasty, challenging downhill, the other way goes around and is much longer, so if you go that way you lose time. Throw in a gap jump with a ride around. There are lots of possibilities, and it would be much more interesting to watch then the current XC snooze fests. Why do you think XC does not get any TV coverage. It's just not that exciting to watch.

    A race like this would even things out. A bike with "real" mountain tires and rear suspension would be able to climb up things a semi-slick hardtail would not. And you would have to have some skills to take that semi-slick, half road bike, down a really rocky nasty downhill, and it might just break in half or taco a rim trying to go through a rock garden or do a jump. I am not saying XC guys aren't skilled, but lets see those skills.I would like to see some reward to those technical uphill masters.
    Interesting. Design a race for my bike instead of a bike for a race.

    Why stop with my bike? They should also design the race so that it favors my extra stomach flab. Maybe a refrigerated section where all those sub-10% body fat guys have to stop and put on an extra layer.

  47. #47
    Don't Stop Spinnin'!
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    La Ruta De Conquistadores... Nuff said...
    ~every end is a new beginning...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm_gunslinger
    I guess you never raced against the likes of guys like Tomac and Herebold? Tomac was a great x-country racer that you can say did well on the DH, and Herebold was a great DH'er and what has now evolved into 4x but also did well on the world level in x-country (he would crack top 20's regularly). Both were also very good at what was called short track events back then, kind of a multi-lap spectator friendly bmx race. Tomac could catch major air and do major tricks while winning these events (so could greg too).

    Julien was a great BMX'er. Also, have you seen the moves and tricks this guy can do? They're outstanding to say the least.... He is a very good freerider. He may not win DH events at the WC level, but I'm sure if it became his focus he would be someone competing at the WC events... Ditto for Sauser who, again, won the world championship marathon race (though was relegated to 2nd for irregular sprinting).

    Going back to AM "racing," my main point is these guys would still be winning....
    I mean no disrespect for tomac, but you can't argue the sport hasn't evolved a bit. People are going faster and faster in both DH and XC, bikes are getting nicer and nicer, and racers are getting more and more specialized talents.

    Take Jurgan Beneke. By all ac****s a solid rider, who's main talent is descending, and he's good enough at doing it that he can do damn well in an AM event like downieville. He still races pro class DH from time to time, but at this point he is stoked if he qualifies, let alone a top 100.

    I don't know, I mean no disrespect to anybody, and there are plenty of people who cross back and forth between XC and DH, but the exceptionally good people (at both) tend to stick to their own line, because thats what they're best at. I'm sure by the end of the day Julian would be going a lot faster then me if he were to jump on a big bike and get used to it at a lift resort, but I don't think there is any way he could be competitive with guys like Hill, Peat, Atherton, Minnaar, Blenki, and so on.

  49. #49
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    Here in da BC even da xc raycerz wear 5-10's and ff helmetheads. We hardcore number 1.

  50. #50
    LMN
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42

    I don't know, I mean no disrespect to anybody, and there are plenty of people who cross back and forth between XC and DH, but the exceptionally good people (at both) tend to stick to their own line, because thats what they're best at. I'm sure by the end of the day Julian would be going a lot faster then me if he were to jump on a big bike and get used to it at a lift resort, but I don't think there is any way he could be competitive with guys like Hill, Peat, Atherton, Minnaar, Blenki, and so on.
    Isn't the idea of an all mountain race somewhere between the two? Nobody, at least nobody who knows anything, is saying that elite XC racers can compete in elite DH. Of course the same can about elite DHers racing elite XC.

    To me all mountain racing is racing that is 50% technique, 50% fitness. As opposed to XC (25% technique, 75% fitness) and DH (75% technique, 25% fitness).

    The whole arguement about XC racers haves having no skills is like say DHers have no fitness. All the good DHers I ride with are really fit, just as all the good XC racers are really skilled. Of course there are many Dhers with horrible fitness, and many XCers with limited skills, and that is why they struggle in their chosen sport.

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