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  1. #126
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    What does AM mean for wheels? I cannot find mentioned in the usual areas.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmccurdy View Post
    What does AM mean for wheels? I cannot find mentioned in the usual areas.
    it means too heavy for XC and too wimpy for DH/freeride

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    it means too heavy for XC and too wimpy for DH/freeride
    Exactly. You know, what most people do.

  4. #129
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    Let me see if I can word this to fit what I mean so somebody can understand.
    If you see bike the "different" bike types for what they are...(different from one another)...and don't compare the "differences"...(just ride and enjoy the differences)..., you can enjoy them that way.
    when you begin to compare the differences...and prefer one over another,that's when one type might "die".
    ...in other words...it's all in the way you perceive the bikes.
    and yeah- sorry if this doesn't make sense. LOL
    Personally I like 'em all.
    roccowt.
    rocnbikemeld

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Exactly. You know, what most people do.
    What? What is it that most people do?.... 5 foot drops? Rollers? Square edge climbs?... the "Officail diffeniniton" hardley describes any sort of riding.... so what is an all mountain wheel set? It has to be defined by what it is not for. To weak for dh to heavy for xc..... PS everyone has thier own ideas on how low they want to set the bar for xc..... so in an effort to prop them selves up they talk down XC because by defintion the less xc encompases the more all mountain will include.... ill leave it to the experts where xc ends and all mountain begins

  6. #131
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    Is 26er a dying breed?

    Quote Originally Posted by zarr View Post
    Let me see if I can word this to fit what I mean so somebody can understand.
    If you see bike the "different" bike types for what they are...(different from one another)...and don't compare the "differences"...(just ride and enjoy the differences)..., you can enjoy them that way.
    when you begin to compare the differences...and prefer one over another,that's when one type might "die".
    ...in other words...it's all in the way you perceive the bikes.
    and yeah- sorry if this doesn't make sense. LOL
    Personally I like 'em all.
    Sorry can't resist:

    Name:  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1363025078.587821.jpg
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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    What? What is it that most people do?.... 5 foot drops? Rollers? Square edge climbs?... the "Officail diffeniniton" hardley describes any sort of riding.... so what is an all mountain wheel set? It has to be defined by what it is not for. To weak for dh to heavy for xc..... PS everyone has thier own ideas on how low they want to set the bar for xc..... so in an effort to prop them selves up they talk down XC because by defintion the less xc encompases the more all mountain will include.... ill leave it to the experts where xc ends and all mountain begins
    Speak English? Why leave it up to the experts. It's your bike. You define how you use it. Also, I say that the average person rides harder than the cross-country rider and easier than a downhill racer, so yeah. Somewhere in the middle. Maybe not in the 5 foot drop or 20 foot gap area so much, but definitely somewhere in the middle. I don't know if I understood your rant or not, but whatever.

  8. #133
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    not sure what its like in murica but here in the uk 29ers are still very much a niche product apart from at xc races and 650b is almost non existant, ive never seen a tyre in the flesh at a shop let alone a whole bike. at a guess i'd say the 26" wheeled bikes outnumber the big wheelers on the trails by at least 50-1. I think its partly because of the type of riding here in the UK and partly because we tend to be far less prone to fall for the marketing hype.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by b45her View Post
    at a guess i'd say the 26" wheeled bikes outnumber the big wheelers on the trails by at least 50-1.
    That's progress. Last time I was there it was like half of pennyfarthings.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Speak English? Why leave it up to the experts. It's your bike. You define how you use it. Also, I say that the average person rides harder than the cross-country rider and easier than a downhill racer, so yeah. Somewhere in the middle. Maybe not in the 5 foot drop or 20 foot gap area so much, but definitely somewhere in the middle. I don't know if I understood your rant or not, but whatever.
    Where is the line between XC and "all mountain" ? I have a feeling some(you), would like to think an XC trail is just a dirt path. So an all mountain trail is a dirt path with a rock in the middle?

  11. #136
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    Is 26er a dying breed?

    Quote Originally Posted by b45her View Post
    because we tend to be far less prone to fall for the marketing hype.
    Oh be quiet. I know lots of dumb Brits. This is a country who made a frog based ring tone a national phenomenon. Make your reasons, but saying your entire country is just above it all is silly.

  12. #137
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    Is 26er a dying breed?

    Quote Originally Posted by b45her View Post
    not sure what its like in murica but here in the uk 29ers are still very much a niche product apart from at xc races and 650b is almost non existant, ive never seen a tyre in the flesh at a shop let alone a whole bike. at a guess i'd say the 26" wheeled bikes outnumber the big wheelers on the trails by at least 50-1. I think its partly because of the type of riding here in the UK and partly because we tend to be far less prone to fall for the marketing hype.
    Hey, Mate. Love the UK and a mtb trip there is on my bucket list.

    But:

    1. This guy is a Yank, and makes the pro 26" argument on his bike:

    http://m.vitalmtb.com/videos/feature...le+Feedfetcher

    2. 29" dominates the market on this side of the pond. Maybe it's because Yanks are tall? It's not marketing hype.
    If the bikes didn't perform, how could they dominate? Hype only goes so far.

    3. As far as 650b - which I prefer - this German bike is cutting edge, and hard to get in the States. Many UK shops carry it.

    http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Cube-Stereo-...-MTB_58146.htm

    If you blokes aren't going to buy it, can you please ship it over? Looks tasty to
    me.


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    Last edited by dwt; 03-12-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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  13. #138
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    maybe an anthropologist will save our dying culture before it is too late

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Hey, Mate. Love the UK and a mtb trip there is on my bucket list.

    But:

    1. This guy is a Yank, and makes the pro 26" argument on his bike:

    Vital MTB | Mountain Biking Videos

    2. 29" dominates the market on this side of the pond. Maybe it's because Yanks are tall? It's not marketing hype.
    If the bikes didn't perform, how could they dominate? Hype only goes so far.

    3. As far as 650b - which I prefer - this German bike is cutting edge, and hard to get in the States. Many UK shops carry it.

    Buy Cube Stereo Super HPC 160 Race (650B) Mountain Bike 2013 - Full Suspension MTB at Tredz Bikes. 2995.00 with free UK delivery

    If you blokes aren't going to buy it, can you please ship it over? Looks tasty to
    me.


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    with regards to the cube lots of shops may have them in their product lists but very few will have one for you to test ride or look at in the flesh, a friend of mine owns a cube dealership and the only place he's seen one is at a trade show. i'm not slighting wagon wheelers they have their place but in the uk they are far from "dominant" there is still a lot of "oh look a 29er" unless your at an xc event where they seem to make up about 50% of the bikes.

    as someone said earlier in this thread the bike companies are throwing millions at marketing new standards because its harder to sell someone something they already have.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by b45her View Post
    with regards to the cube lots of shops may have them in their product lists but very few will have one for you to test ride or look at in the flesh, a friend of mine owns a cube dealership and the only place he's seen one is at a trade show. i'm not slighting wagon wheelers they have their place but in the uk they are far from "dominant" there is still a lot of "oh look a 29er" unless your at an xc event where they seem to make up about 50% of the bikes.

    as someone said earlier in this thread the bike companies are throwing millions at marketing new standards because its harder to sell someone something they already have.
    If I go to UK to ride, I will buy a 650b cube there (or on the other side of the channel, depending on whether pound or euro has better echange vs. dollar when I go).

    I was thinking Scotland (are they still UK or have they seceeded?) or Wales. What do you recommend?

    Thx.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  16. #141
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    What's better: car or truck?

    truck can go anywhere car can.
    are cars a dying breed?
    Time wounds all heels...

  17. #142
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    no

  18. #143
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    No. Mountain bikes should not be about trends, fads, or "whats new," but rather simple physics. A 26" tire, among other things, will have a vastly different moment of inertia than a 29er or 650b, and consequently will have a unique feel to the ride. The same could be said of 29ers and 650b. It's simply is and most likely always be a preference of style and feel.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayman121 View Post
    No. Mountain bikes should not be about trends, fads, or "whats new," but rather simple physics. A 26" tire, among other things, will have a vastly different moment of inertia than a 29er or 650b, and consequently will have a unique feel to the ride. The same could be said of 29ers and 650b. It's simply is and most likely always be a preference of style and feel.
    It is not about moment of inertia at all. It is pretty close for a meaty 26" tire and lighter 29" tire/rim, but they do not ride anywhere near the same. It is about attack angle, shape of the contact patch and bike balance. And all of that is not "vastly" different.

    Largest difference, in raw numbers, is stiffness, as it goes as cube of radius. Some 40%+ difference IIRC, everything else being equal (rim and tire profile, spoke tension and diameter).. Whether it is important - another story.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is not about moment of inertia at all. It is pretty close for a meaty 26" tire and lighter 29" tire/rim, but they do not ride anywhere near the same. It is about attack angle, shape of the contact patch and bike balance. And all of that is not "vastly" different.

    Largest difference, in raw numbers, is stiffness, as it goes as cube of radius. Some 40%+ difference IIRC, everything else being equal (rim and tire profile, spoke tension and diameter).. Whether it is important - another story.
    How do you figure moment of inertia is not a factor, considering the difference in geometry of the frame as well as wheel size? For example, two riders, one on a 26 and one 29 going the same velocity relative to their surroundings will have tires with different rotational inertia. Are you saying this is not true, or that it makes no difference in feel?

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayman121 View Post
    How do you figure moment of inertia is not a factor, considering the difference in geometry of the frame as well as wheel size?
    I have mentioned an example. Take a 26" tire with a heavier tire and 29" with a smaller one. r^2 factor is ~1.2, so with rim+tire on 26" you need a 20% heavier tire to match. Say 650g 29r tire and 500g rim (assuming tubeless), and 780g 26" tire with 600g rim. You can about match the tire profile and knobs. Same moment of inertia - nowhere near the same ride.

    If I go from my weenie hardtail with 500g tires, to my AM hardtail, with 850g tires, I have a bigger change than when going to a 29r with similar rim/casing. Nowhere near the same effect.

    Difference in geometry are completely separate. As I have stated. That is the real difference.

    People bring this "moment of inertia" argument all the time without even looking at the numbers. Fraction of energy in the rotating wheel - compared to the whole rider+bike is very small. And depends more on your tire choice.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I have listed the example. Take a 26" tire with larger tire and 29" with a smaller one. r^2 factor is ~1.2, so with rim+tire on 26" you need a 20% heavier tire to match. Say 650g 29r tire and 500g rim (assuming tubeless), and 780g 26" tire with 600g rim. You can about match the tire profile and knobs. Same moment of inertia - nowhere near the same ride.

    If I go from my weenie hardtail with 500g tires, to my AM hardtail, with 850g tires, I have a bigger change than when going to a 29r with similar rim/casing. Nowhere near the same effect.

    Difference in geometry are completely separate. As I have stated. That is the real difference.
    I'm not familiar with 29s much. Do 29ers generally have lighter tires? If so, then angular inertia is a factor which is merely compensated for with wheel mass. Sorry if I am misunderstanding you.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    Where is the line between XC and "all mountain" ? I have a feeling some(you), would like to think an XC trail is just a dirt path. So an all mountain trail is a dirt path with a rock in the middle?
    Lol. The difference is that an "all mountain" rider would stop and session the rock if it were big enough, were a XC rider would try to pick the quickest/smoothest line and keep riding.
    All of my XC buddies, are always in a hurry.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayman121 View Post
    I'm not familiar with 29s much. Do 29ers generally have lighter tires? If so, then angular inertia is a factor which is merely compensated for with wheel mass. Sorry if I am misunderstanding you.
    They do not. Given the same casing and rim extrusion you will have about 1.1* 1.1^2 ~ 40% higher moment of inertia for a twenty niner wheel. And it will be around 5% (?) of the total energy in a rider+bike? Which is less than the difference between various 26" tire/rim models. Which, experimentally, does not achieve the same effect at all.

    Is 26er a dying breed?-c28.jpg

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    They do not. Given the same casing and rim extrusion you will have about 1.1* 1.1^2 ~ 40% higher moment of inertia for a twenty niner wheel. And it will be around 5% (?) of the total energy in a rider+bike? Which is less than the difference between various 26" tire/rim models. Which, experimentally, does not achieve the same effect at all.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	c28.jpg 
Views:	142 
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ID:	780357
    So the difference is there, but relatively negligible, correct?

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