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  1. #1
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    Last edited by jazzanova; 01-19-2014 at 09:28 PM.

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    Thanks for sharing those. I thought that was a really enjoyable format. Like hanging around with your buds after a ride just chewing the fat and comparing bikes.

    The Devinci Troy sizing gripe was a head scratcher for me. I'm 5' 11.5" and the medium I rode didn't feel all that cramped, so not sure how they felt that the large was short. They even measured it at 24.5". Go figure.

    EDIT: I see on the Troy thread in the 27.5 forum where someone from Devinci explains that the published number for tt length is a virtual or effective measurement.

    With frames that have a bent seat tube like the Troy or one that attaches in front of the BB like knolly this ETT will be longer than the actual measurement. I'm still unsure how that explains the Large feeling so cramped for them. Just an observation as to why the published tt height doesn't seem to jive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Christmas refresher course:



    Words by Noel:

    Measuring top tube length is generally considered to be a horizontal line from the center axis of the top of the head tube, that goes backwards and intersects with the seat tube axis. The trick is, what is the difference between TT length and ETT length? On a frame with traditional construction (i.e. where the seat tube axis pierces the BB shell's axis), the ETT length and the TT length are exactly the same.

    However, on a frame where the seat tube axis does NOT pierce the BB shell axis, the standard TT length then becomes meaningless because the seat tube angle doesn't mean anything. This is an issue on many, many modern frames, not just Knolly frames. Consider the multitude of frames that have "bent" seat tubes (whether actually bent or hydro-formed aluminum tubes, or are laid up in carbon this way). While the bottom of the seat tube may match up with the BB shell, the seat tube axis (where the seat post is installed into the seat tube) does NOT pierce the BB shell axis. This is extremely common to ensure that there is enough room for the rear wheel / rear linkage under full compression of the frame. On these kinds of frames, the actual seat tube angle cannot be used to make an effective measurement of the top tube length. Additionally, since the actual angle of the seat tube is slacker than the normal range of 72-74 degrees (for an MTB) when the seat is raised, it's hard to get a good indication of where the seat will be a) relative to the BB axis, and b) relative to the head tube.
    Hence, the creation of the ETT(Effective Top Tube length). The idea here is to have a "virtual" seat tube: this is essentially an imaginary axis that is at a prescribed angle (i.e. 73 degrees) and this axis is considered to pierce the BB shell axis. On any well designed frame with a seat tube that doesn't pierce the BB shell axis, the actual seat tube and the virtual seat tube should meet up where the saddle would be in a normal pedaling position. When dropped, the saddle will move slightly forwards, away from the virtual seat tube axis. While it's very obvious on our frames (because the seat tube intersects the down tube visually), the same situation exists on many (in fact, most) modern frames with travel more than about 5" because the tire and rear linkage need somewhere to go when fully compressed.

    The diagram gives a good idea of what happens here. Obviously, I can't speak for other manufacturers, but the situation shown in the diagram (with the continuous seat tube) is exactly how Knolly frames are designed. There are obviously a few more tweaks than this in determining frame geometry, but this gives the general idea, and how ETT length and TT length are similar, but not quite the same thing. It also explains how we deal with ensuring that we have enough room behind the seat tube for the rear wheel and linkage, while still allowing a full length seat tube to be used in the frame (especially important for medium and small frames and customers using dropper posts).

    Assuming that the seat tube angle is reasonable, ETT is the correct measurement when looking to determine the top tube length for fitting frame sizes, as (actual) TT length is meaningless for any frame that doesn't have a seat tube axis that pierces the BB shell axis.
    Last edited by KRob; 01-09-2014 at 05:29 PM.
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  3. #3
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    The videos are much better executed and in-depth than this month's printed edition of the magazine. I found the reviews in print to be lacking.
    konahonzo

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    Any big take aways from these reviews? Bikes that fell short, or bikes that stand out?
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  6. #6
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    Re: 2014 Bible of Bike Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Any big take aways from these reviews? Bikes that fell short, or bikes that stand out?
    They complained about the Troy in particular feeling too short.
    Looks like they really like the Norco Sight, Ibis Ripley, Evil Uprising and Kona Process 134...
    Last edited by jazzanova; 01-08-2014 at 01:40 PM.

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    Since no one wants to mention it, most of them agreed that the Specialized Camber Evo was their fav 29 of the test. LOL A ton of the bikes seemed very in the middle with features that fell short, and some that stood out for each. It still shows that it really just comes down to personal preference, fit and terrain. I was also bummed about their review of the Troy.
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    My take-away: Bike Magazine, and much of the industry's surrounding chatter and noise, aren't able to see past their insiderish noses, i.e., that many of us potential buyers have to buy a bike at closer to 3k, and if they would review one on its own virtues and drawbacks, it would not only be doing us a great service, it would help their buddies sell bikes.

    For instance, I know at least seven other dudes, in addition to me, who race/ride XC, and are looking for a FS AM bike as a second bike, but want something more SLX-level. Sure, we all build up our XC bikes, and would upgrade a new AM bike over time as we see fit. (Won't many folks do this? Like put that new Pike on later, when we beat the Revelation down?) So, we want something relatively inexpensive to start off.

    So:
    Review the Heckler.
    Review the alloy Sights and Ranges @ SLX
    Review the Remedy 8
    Review the ... insert your relatively inexpensive, decently spec'd whip here...
    ...though the Process 134 was a good one. Heh.

    My 2 cents. Anybody got change?

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    Also shocking was the printed review of the Yeti SB75. It was mentioned it did nothing better than the SB66 or worse than the SB95. It seems like a rushed design to get on the 650b bandwagon.
    konahonzo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Collins View Post
    ... that many of us potential buyers have to buy a bike at closer to 3k, and if they would review one on its own virtues and drawbacks, it would not only be doing us a great service, it would help their buddies sell bikes.

    So:
    Review the Heckler.
    Review the alloy Sights and Ranges @ SLX
    Review the Remedy 8
    Review the ... insert your relatively inexpensive, decently spec'd whip here...
    ...though the Process 134 was a good one. Heh.
    ?
    I'd agree. I've been preaching the relative value of the Range and Sight in alloy, and even in carbon guise they are still deals compared to bikes like the Bronson C, which you can't get below $4,000 in carbon.

    I too am looking for a relatively light, relatively cheap 160mm full suspension bike as a "play bike" to compliment a carbon hardtail 29er.
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    Maybe the Evil Uprising X7/X9 (or SLX/XT equivalent) version, at around $3800, full carbon?
    Last edited by tp806; 01-15-2014 at 02:17 AM.

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    I would jump on a cheap Evil if it were 27.5" and I'm sure they'd sell like hotcakes even in 26" only, but the tweener wheels have me sold.
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  13. #13
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    Did they review any Pivots? I haven't seen the magazine yet and I don't think they reviewed any last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tp806 View Post
    Maybe the Evil Uprising X7/X9 version, at around $3800, full carbon?
    That's a smoking deal and after watching that video I'm trying to figure out how I can possibly swing that. Wow. I want one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tp806
    Maybe the Evil Uprising X7/X9 version, at around $3800, full carbon?
    Where can I get one for that price?

  16. #16
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    I really enjoyed the reviews. I wish all the bikes had the same tires. As we all know, tires can make or break a bike. Id also like a plane ticket to where they rode. Looks like a great place to ride.
    No moss...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpre View Post
    Where can I get one for that price?
    I did some interwebs searching and found zip. I found one Evil retailer with frames for $2600 but that's it. I didn't even see the Uprising on their website (?)
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    I think they totally admitted that 27.5/ 650b is the best of both worlds. I could have told anyone that, it doesn't feel like either, but either do the others. That's why I'm all in on the 27.5 wheel size, it does what the 26ers do and does what 29ers do also, but does everything better then both, just can't totally believe what the magazines say, both pro and con.

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    Loved the reviews; it was really nice to hear them talk honestly about what they didn't like! So many reviews just read like manufacturer's ad copy.

    Also, as my current MTB stable is a Bronson C and a Ripley, I'm glad to hear that the experts agree that they're two of the best out there!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by broccoli rob View Post
    Did they review any Pivots? I haven't seen the magazine yet and I don't think they reviewed any last year.
    No Pivots tested. Not sure if CC just didn't want to send them any or what. They had plenty of demos at I-bike an Outerbike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I think they totally admitted that 27.5/ 650b is the best of both worlds. I could have told anyone that, it doesn't feel like either, but either do the others. That's why I'm all in on the 27.5 wheel size, it does what the 26ers do and does what 29ers do also, but does everything better then both, just can't totally believe what the magazines say, both pro and con.
    After watching the Yeti sb75 review, I'd say that they admired the opposite - that if you're looking for better rollover get a 29, if you want mobility and quick handling then get a 26er. 27.5 is a bad idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpre View Post
    Where can I get one for that price?
    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I did some interwebs searching and found zip. I found one Evil retailer with frames for $2600 but that's it. I didn't even see the Uprising on their website (?)
    Well you can either get it directly from Evil, by contacting them on their facebook page (since their new website is not up yet).
    https://www.facebook.com/EvilBikes

    Or I think you can get the low end X7/X9 (or SLX/XT) version, built up, in any of the bike shops that actually carries them, like the one below.
    Evil Uprising Frame - Fanatik Bike Co. - Bellingham Wa

    http://www.silverfish-uk.com/Product...Bike-Pro-Build

    If I am not mistaken for 2013 in Europe, a low end build was this:

    2014 Bible of Bike Tests-image006_evil.jpg

    Base Race Face cranks & cockpit, XT wheelset, XT rear der, no dropper post, float CTD, Float 34.
    Last edited by tp806; 01-15-2014 at 02:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnigro View Post
    After watching the Yeti sb75 review, I'd say that they admired the opposite - that if you're looking for better rollover get a 29, if you want mobility and quick handling then get a 26er. 27.5 is a bad idea.
    2014 Bible of Bike Tests: Yeti SB-75 - Bike Magazine - YouTube

    "if you're a mountain biker you should have a 26er and a 29er, and maybe you shouldn't have a 650b - ok I said it, and Dan's gonna have to cut that." So freaking true!

  24. #24
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    At the end of the Uprising review:

    "Looks like its back to 26"

    So I'm guessing 2015 marketing hype will be all about how much fun 26" bikes are. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by tp806 View Post
    Well you can either get it directly from Evil, by contacting them on their facebook page (since their new website is not up yet).
    https://www.facebook.com/EvilBikes

    Or I think you can get the low end X7/X9 (or SLX/XT) version, built up, in any of the bike shops that actually carries them, like the one below.
    Evil Uprising Frame - Fanatik Bike Co. - Bellingham Wa

    If I am not mistaken for 2013 in Europe, a low end build was this:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image006_EVIL.jpg 
Views:	1351 
Size:	51.4 KB 
ID:	861178

    Base Race Face cranks & cockpit, XT wheelset, XT rear der, no dropper post.
    Thanks for the info. I still can't believe that setup is $3800. Time to start saving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swissam View Post
    At the end of the Uprising review:

    "Looks like its back to 26"

    So I'm guessing 2015 marketing hype will be all about how much fun 26" bikes are. Lol
    Could very well be that, but on the other hand some may say, you need to go all in for the 650b, and get a quiver killer, like the Pivot Firebird 27.5.
    Built with XX1 or XTR 1x, Enve 650b carbon wheel-set, 180 Float, Float X and carbon components everywhere else, you could perhaps have a sub-30lbs bike, that truly blurs the lines of many categories and can be used for 90% of riding up and down, from everything apart from full on DH racing and XC racing...
    Is it worth it though? That's another question.
    Just food for thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tp806 View Post
    Could very well be that, but on the other hand some may say, you need to go all in for the 650b, and get a quiver killer, like the Pivot Firebird 27.5.
    Built with XX1 or XTR 1x, Enve 650b carbon wheel-set, 180 Float, Float X and carbon components everywhere else, you could perhaps have a sub-30lbs bike, that truly blurs the lines of many categories and can be used for 90% of riding up and down, from everything apart from full on DH racing and XC racing...
    Is it worth it though? That's another question.
    Just food for thought.
    That sounds like a quiver killing bike approaching $10k. I'd spend that kind of money on 3 different bikes to have some variety. - a hard tail for XC riding, a DH bike and a 140-150 mm trail bike.

    The mixed blessing about all the new wheels sizes is that its a lot easier to justify having more than one bike. Ahh the good ol' days when 90% of the bikes on the market were aluminum hard tails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    That sounds like a quiver killing bike approaching $10k. I'd spend that kind of money on 3 different bikes to have some variety. - a hard tail for XC riding, a DH bike and a 140-150 mm trail bike.
    The mixed blessing about all the new wheels sizes is that its a lot easier to justify having more than one bike. Ahh the good ol' days when 90% of the bikes on the market were aluminum hard tails.
    True dat!
    But just think that the Santa Cruz Bronson C tested on the 2014 Bike bible, was already approaching that figure ($9830) for one 150mm trail/AM bike...


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    ^^^I was just thinking this as I watched that video - why not test the $4k Bronson? I don't think many Bike readers are in the market for a $10k bike.
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  30. #30
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    Re: 2014 Bible of Bike Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by mnigro View Post
    After watching the Yeti sb75 review, I'd say that they admired the opposite - that if you're looking for better rollover get a 29, if you want mobility and quick handling then get a 26er. 27.5 is a bad idea.
    They loved some of the 27.5 bikes. They raved about the Kona
    No moss...

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    I thought the part in the Bronson segment about press fit BB vs. threaded was interesting, only because they implied the consumer is demanding pressfit because it's the latest, but they themselves want to stick to threaded. I want to stick to threaded also, but I've never heard the part about pressfit being consumer driven. I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I like the Santa Cruz but it's not pressfit so I'll pass." More people on these forums anyway seem to be like me, where I'm considering bikes like the Process and Troy, but are very hesitant because they're pressfit.

    Anyway, interesting to hear these reviews. I, however try not to get too hung up on the opinions of a few guys and take the "Bible" part literally (not that they mean us to). Just another piece of good info to consider when shopping.

    Jazznova: did these reviews change your thought process any?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    ^^^I was just thinking this as I watched that video - why not test the $4k Bronson? I don't think many Bike readers are in the market for a $10k bike.
    That would make sense, but I bet SC just sent them the build they want tested and photographed. I can't blame SC. It looks great. OTOH all my friends with Bronsons are riding the $3K AL build.
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    So Cal RX, you are right indeed about the threaded BB. One of the reasons as well (although not the decisive one), that I selected the Evil Uprising instead of the Devinci Dixon Carbon, was to avoid the press fit BB92 standard. Threaded BB for me all the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    ^^^I was just thinking this as I watched that video - why not test the $4k Bronson? I don't think many Bike readers are in the market for a $10k bike.
    Yehaw!

    It's true, though: if I ran Bike, and especially if I were a reviewer, I'd call up Santa Cruz, et al and say, "Yeah, we need pretty much the top-of-the-line carbons, definitely. We want to review the best you have..." Then hang up the phone, knuck my bros, and prep for riding all the sweetest bikes in Sedona.

    And I spoke hypocritically in my first post. Partially. Yeah, I want to see the 3k bikes reviewed, but those reviews would have *very little* to do with my purchase. It might toss one into the hat that wasn't there before, but I'll damn sure demo for myself any bike before I bought it. For instance, they didn't dig the Remedy, seemingly because the top tube was too short, and that threw off the balance; well, I have a short torso, long legs, so the Remedy was great for me when I rode it last weekend.
    "Ride it for yourself..." As you know.

    As for press-fit. I hate them. Lighter? F it. I've mainly been riding Treks with pressfit, and they don't come with drain holes in the BB shell; you have to drill them, which may void the warranty (depending on your shop). Still, you can't remove the BB, clean out the shell, reinstall. That's a flawed design, really; can it be fixededededed?

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    Many complaining about them testing higher spec expensive builds, why? You can easily take most of what they are saying and figure a similar handling bike just a bit heavier, not rocket science! They even stated in the Sight video how awesome it is that you can buy basically the same handling bike with the same carbon frame for a few thousand less with the lower spec build.

    Something about the Scott Genius LT 700 for me. Found out they will NOT be doing a frame only in the US though, bummer.

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    From the SB75 review I got some new releases are good, but if they were 26 it would not make them worse its just a question of better frames/angles and not wheel size, to them 650b has a weight penalty that is not justified with slightly better rolling.

    Its like you have to spend almost twice as much on a 650b to get something as light as a 26", no wonder people are pushing 650b.

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    My personal opinion prefers them to run the base line builds of each so that I know I can build on that foundation. If we can get a basic understanding of those models then you have an understanding to make an educated choice and to know that you can obviously improve on the bike in ways that matter to you. THAT would help me in the buying process. Getting me wound up on the 10K version or hell even the 6K carbon version doesn't help me at all understand how the bike may perform with a basic build 3-4lbs heavier that I will still have to save for two years to buy. In addition, the reviews would be more applicable to a largER market of buyers.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuch View Post
    My personal opinion prefers them to run the base line builds of each so that I know I can build on that foundation.
    But if you're a manufacturer, you want your bike to be one of the favorites of the test, right? I mean, we're all on here talking about the test, so it's obviously reaching consumers. So you send a nice light build.

    I mean, look at the SB75, which they didn't like. That's an aluminum bike. It's heavy. They said in their review that they were underwhelmed by the SB66, but then tried the SB66c, which is much lighter and carbon (and $$) and loved it.

    All that said, I DO think that standardizing wheels and tires across bikes would make sense, and would make it a much more useful test. And a huge chunk of some of these $10k builds is from ENVE or similar wheels; nice-but-not-bonkers wheels and standard tires would make a ton of sense to allow a fair comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by So Cal RX View Post
    I thought the part in the Bronson segment about press fit BB vs. threaded was interesting, only because they implied the consumer is demanding pressfit because it's the latest, but they themselves want to stick to threaded.
    I think a lot of the move toward press fit BBs comes from road bikes, where they can be made lighter and stiffer and the need for easy maintenance and replacement is less of an issue.

    I've also heard that manufacturers prefer press fit, as they require fewer pieces and less precision to produce. So there's probably some marketing there, with manufacturers pushing press fit as the latest and greatest in an effort to create demand for the product they prefer to produce.

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    So how could 27.5 be bad in their opinion, but the other two sizes great? either they had a pre-production prototype with a bad geometry or they are full of sh1t, I'm guessing the latter. For the one's that denounce 27.5, ride them first, then make an honest opinion, buyer remorse or your believe in magazine bike tests or "marketing hype" gets you nowhere.
    I've put plenty of time on all, never did like twenty niners, but most of my friends ride them, but they re starting to see the light and a couple have even switched from 29ers to 27.5.
    It's all what you like, not what someone pays you to like or tells you to like, that just happens to be what I like....27.5's are here to stay in a big way at the expense of mostly 26ers, but some 29er models will disappear also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I think a lot of the move toward press fit BBs comes from road bikes, where they can be made lighter and stiffer and the need for easy maintenance and replacement is less of an issue.

    I've also heard that manufacturers prefer press fit, as they require fewer pieces and less precision to produce. So there's probably some marketing there, with manufacturers pushing press fit as the latest and greatest in an effort to create demand for the product they prefer to produce.
    PF BB's are new and threaded BB's are old hat. It won't take long for any issues with PF BBs to get worked out.

    If I had a choice I would give them a miss for another season or so, but at the same time if a bike I wanted had a PF BB it wouldn't be enough to keep me away.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Many complaining about them testing higher spec expensive builds, why? You can easily take most of what they are saying and figure a similar handling bike just a bit heavier, not rocket science!
    Huge difference between AL and CF frames. Wanting the cheapest Bronson C review makes sense, since the cost is still within reach of most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Many complaining about them testing higher spec expensive builds, why? You can easily take most of what they are saying and figure a similar handling bike just a bit heavier, not rocket science! They even stated in the Sight video how awesome it is that you can buy basically the same handling bike with the same carbon frame for a few thousand less with the lower spec build.

    .

    I agree plus companies want to show off their best bikes, like the turner with the upgraded ENVE and the bronson that costs 3x the guy's trucks. It's not all bikemag's doing with the choosing of the bike builds... IMO loved this and was very useful, learned a lot as well with the technical lingo they used. Good buyer education.

    Kona process, SB75, and Rocky MTN Instinct were my faves. I feel like the SB75 has a lot of potential and is probably better than most other review bikes here, but when compared to the SB66, it makes me question how worthwhile 650b bikes are

    I think they should have mixed in a few more 26" bikes to add variety and also help in reviewing. I think they all love the uprising just because it was 26" while it fell short is so many other areas...

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    I liked these reviews, watched all of them during my nightshift.

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    I really enjoyed the Bible tests. The video versions in particular seem way more candid and insightful than most bike reviews.

    That said, I was puzzled by the omission of a couple of bikes: namely anything Pivot and the Ibis HDR. I was especially interested in the HDR review since last year the HD was chosen by 2 of the 6 reviewers as their top pick. Given how Bike thought the Yeti SB76 was a letdown compared to the 26 version, I was curious to hear their view on whether the HDR 650 was a step up or not. It would have provided an interesting data point in the 26/650b debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    PF BB's are new and threaded BB's are old hat. It won't take long for any issues with PF BBs to get worked out.

    If I had a choice I would give them a miss for another season or so, but at the same time if a bike I wanted had a PF BB it wouldn't be enough to keep me away.
    Hopefully you're right. Still, to me though, even if press fit was as trouble free as threaded, I like the fact that when I think the BB is dirty, I can simply remove the cranks and unscrew the BB, clean it, the shell, inspect, grease, and screw the cups back in. Even with the right tools, PF is more work to remove and re-install. More importantly I think (like with headsets), when you press the BB in you are basically forcing it into a shell that is smaller than the BB itself. Is it good to do that over and over? I recall it wasn't recommended for headsets.

    Anyway, lots of debate on this in other threads. The surprising part for me again was the assertion in the Bronson review that PF are what we the consumers are asking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinizer View Post
    That said, I was puzzled by the omission of a couple of bikes: namely anything Pivot and the Ibis HDR.
    Also bummed to see Canfield, Diamondback and Banshee not included (even though a Banshee was part of the previous issues dream bikes article)

    I do enjoy their reviews but they will never influence my buying decisions (just as most of the brands I like don't have the marketing clout of specialized)

  48. #48
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    2014 Bible of Bike Tests

    A 2013/14 carbon nomad review would have been nice. I know it's old tech.
    Let's ride...

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by wbrougier View Post
    I think they should have mixed in a few more 26" bikes to add variety and also help in reviewing. I think they all love the uprising just because it was 26" while it fell short is so many other areas...
    I just watched the Uprising review video twice, and call me a bit biased, but apart from the tire clearance, which may or may not be an issue (not an issue for me) depending on the tire you're using, all of them said that this was the best 150mm AM bike they have tested so far, and quite good VFM.
    Quote: "Rides ridiculously good, performance".
    IMHO, it didn't fell short anywhere really, but smoked many much more expensive bikes.
    Which are the areas you think, that the bike fell short? Apart from not accepting currently the trendy 650b wheel?
    Last edited by tp806; 01-10-2014 at 05:11 AM.

  50. #50
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    Yeah, the Uprising got a smoking hot review.

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