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  1. #1
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    Winter Singletrack Groomer

    Today, while attempting to ski pack our singletrack, I couldn't help but wonder why we don't have any means of grooming our riding trails. I'm not sure what this device would be, but it would have to be small and able to maneuver through tight spaces. I'm sure there are some obstacles to overcome. Such as permitting, initial purchase, maintenance and volunteers to actually operate this mystical machinery. I for one, would raise my hand for all of the above. Where would alpine and nordic skiing be today without grooming operations? Why can't we, winter bike enthusiast's evolve the way other winter sports have? There are even groomed snowshoe trails in the lower 48 states! I know there are purists that believe packing it in after every snowfall is all part of it. However, I have yet to encounter these types while snowshoeing, or skiing the trails back in. Only after everything sets up! I hope I don't come across as being to critical. Don't get me wrong, I've opted not to ride several times this winter due to the push-my-bike like conditions. A singletrack groomer could double the available trails for bikes and would be ready to ride in hours after a snowfall, not days.
    What does everyone think? Is this something we can do, or am I just frustrated with the 100+ inches of snow so-far this winter?
    c

  2. #2
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    Sounds like a frustrated fatrider. Sometimes you've got to ski or snowshoe or play chess. Deal!..It's not supposed to be perfect all the time. That why you have to have more than one trick... I love riding, skiing and lots of other things too. Not groomers..... or fee's for the that stuff either. Keep it simple..

  3. #3
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    I like the varied conditions.You could always tow a small car or motorcycle tire to break things down and smooth them out.

  4. #4
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    if you have ridden kincaid lately you have seen the quality of trail being produced by the tire dragging. i personally like the width of and the technicality of the trail resulting in dragging the tire. i think if more people volunteered their time snow shoeing and pitching in, it would happen faster. i may be in the minority but i think there is enough groomed trails in this state already. if you want grooming, go ride a groomed trail. i think the personality of the trails would change drastically if they were groomed. for me there is something to be said for a narrow human powered single track meandering through the woods. it's easy to go out for a few hours and loose yourself in the ride. yeah, its hard work and we cant always ride our bikes, but that makes it so much sweeter when we can.
    litespeed's break

  5. #5
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    I like the creativity

    It was a nice effort ANYRIDE, I think dragging a cinderblock behind snowshoes might do it. That is my engineering capability. The singletracks are so nice when they are ridden in. With so much snow this winter, it has taken some work to keep them that way.
    "Having lack of self-preservation makes biking more fun."

  6. #6
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    As one of the three main tire daggers out at Kincaid I would say that I would prefer that to a skandic/Tundra width trail. Fat bikers are starting to pitch in. I rode at 8 last night and someone had pulled a truck tire around the inner loop thanks for that. Les Mats has already groomed a lot of the lower STAís by Raspberry. 2 R14ís roped together is the way to go. Unless youíre a total bad ass and want to pull a truck tire around.

  7. #7
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    Winter biking in the Anchorage area has it's own interesting dynamic. Not to long ago, there were relatively few into "winter biking" even around here and even less trails available. As the sport evolved, more and more trails became available, both from new construction and from more use causing more trails to be packed and rideable. Just a few years ago, the available singletrack riding gained a big amount of winter trails with the addition of the Hillside STA trails. Just this winter, another batch of STA trails at Kincaid opened up further spreading out the users into an area that had little, if any winter riding. With more trails, there is going to be some reduction of traffic on any one trail/system meaning it will take a bit longer to get packed down. Also, rather than only have a small amount of trails to pack, people are able to choose to ride another area that is already packed instead of going out to help pack a less used trail. When we get new snow, the first thought is to go pack down some trails, but once a few are packed, most grab their bikes and start riding those rather than continuing to pack the other trails. Add to all of this that we are having a record snow year and you get what we are seeing out there, lots of trail that is in marginal or totally unpacked conditions for biking.

    As Kincaider said, there are a number of people who have taken up the charge to go above and beyond with the trail maintenance, dragging tires around the singletrack. There are at least three working at at Kincaid and at least one starting to help with the Hillside STA trails.

    Personally, I prefer the somewhat narrow singletrack trails, those packed by foot/bike/tire to wider trails like the multi-use ski trails/dog mushing trails, etc... If there was to be some form of mechanical groomer used, it would certainly be at least as wide as a snowmachine, and probably wider, leaving it in the condition similar to what Rover's Run gets like after an extended no-snow period, more like a bike freeway than a singletrack trail.

  8. #8
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    Seems like snow conditions dictate riding difficulty in the winter. Therefore maybe we could 'groom' certain trails as less advanced trails. Like maybe on the hillside focus on grooming the queen bee loop.

    Selfishly, it would be nice to hammer out an hour ride on groomed STA trails when I don't have the time to slog out 2-3 hours on soft trails.

  9. #9
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    one or two passes with a small narrow snow machine would do it!

    I have to admit sometimes I've felt like it would be nice to have a groomer, but most of the time I welcome the change to cross train and get some other activities like skiing or snowshoeing. Sometimes that's involved walking my bike too as was the case on Friday on my way home from work! I've been trying to maintain my own little trails close to work here with snowshoes and all the hard work has made me enjoy all the single track trails that much more! Thanks to all of those that are out there packing it down or dragging tires around.

  10. #10
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    Anyone that wants to get a killer leg work out, I am meeting AK Greef at the Stadium at Kincaid @ 4ish and we are going to snow shoe/Tire drag the STAís on the Stadium side. I have 3 sets of tires that I will have out there. I coach skiing from 6:30-8:30 so the tires will be there until 8:45.

  11. #11
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    Ideal groomer? Maybe a 2WD Rokon motorbike towing tires behind it, it would provide a single track width trail. I think they would be able to negotiate our bike trails fairly well, might take a couple passes before you could drag the tires. If you had the right groomer (and spent the hours it would take to get all the appropriate permits), the possibilities could be endless, lots of single track trails could be put in almost anywhere once there is enough snow cover.

    I get the purity of packing trails by foot/dragging tires, but if tire dragging was as much fun as fatbiking it would be it's own sport.

  12. #12
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    Also a big thanks to the tire draggers and other folks who have taken it upon themselves to help maintain and pack trails!

    I agree a snowmachine would be too wide for the singletracks most of us prefer, I don't think anyone wants the STA trails turned into groomers as wide as the Tour of Anchorage or the gasline. If I ever get a Rokon, I'll be sure to test it out.

  13. #13
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    First, I would like to thank all the riders, skiers and snowshoes that go out and pack the trails in. You do a great job.

    I get the purist thing. I know what you all mean by keeping the trails skinny. I myself like the skinny singletrack vs the wider trails.

    But some of the trails are skinny enough that many beginner level riders don't enjoy them. They spend most of their time catching themselves and tire easily. Not everyone has hours upon hours to go out and enjoy these sports. Not everyone has a job that allows them to be that physically active when they get off of work either.

    I am most definitely not suggesting that all the trails be that wide. There certainly can still be trails that are designated for riders with more skill and fitness. There certainly is a middle ground that would be beneficial to all the riders.

  14. #14
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    Rad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kincaider View Post
    As one of the three main tire daggers out at Kincaid I would say that I would prefer that to a skandic/Tundra width trail. Fat bikers are starting to pitch in. I rode at 8 last night and someone had pulled a truck tire around the inner loop thanks for that. Les Mats has already groomed a lot of the lower STAís by Raspberry. 2 R14ís roped together is the way to go. Unless youíre a total bad ass and want to pull a truck tire around.
    You guys are awesome! Glad you have the chutzpa in you and the time.... I try to do my fair share when I have time on the other(side) of town. Mostly use skins and ski and wait for walkers with dogs and snow shoers to finish it out. Then ride the Sheba around a bit. Probalby like alot of folks. If its powder I'm skiing first. When the pow is tracked up and it either gets cold or the R word comes into effect I ride. I always try to commute and take the Trails back home in the evening. So I'll be checking out Srynak's work on Blue dot and the ball fields today.... Elmore this A.M. was interesting to say the least. Glad I ride a fatbike....

  15. #15
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    Skinny Vs Wide? If people want 8 inches of powder groomed fully ride able in 8-12 hours of a snowfall I am not quite sure what the answer to the problem would be. NSAA still has not groomed the outer areas of the park and I donít know if you had to rely on them that they could get it done any faster than what we are getting packed now. I am sure the STAís would be groomed after everything else is done. My neighbor has a skandic and I could bandit it around the trails and pack them out but would not do so as it would be detrimental to the STA cause. I think the trails adapt to the riders. The inner loop gets the crap ridden out of it(speaking only for Kincaid). The more novice riders hit this and venture out farther as the trails improve and widen. I rode Sunday night and it was soft & very frustrating. 1 Ĺ hrs to ride the inner loop tire packed. I probably would have sold someone a fatback for $5 at one point of that ride. Today that same frustrating section is totally bomber I am sure. I would not say I am a purist, I am selfish, I live right on the trails and I drag tires around because I like riding the STAís. If someone wants to run a machine around the trails more power to them I will still ride them. It is cost to benefit I figure that the 3+/- days that it takes us to get the trails groomed on snow shoes is worth the killer riding I get for it.

  16. #16
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    As far as motorized options, I would love to get my hands on one of these to test out some day:
    Rokon Scout Motorcycle, Mototractor and Trail Breaker

    Dragging tires is pretty hardcore, I'm impressed with you guys. We're a lazy lot over here: We mostly just ride whatever is available via sleds, mushers, snowshoers and walkers. Although I do some snowshoeing myself on certain trails to keep them rideable.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post
    Ideal groomer? Maybe a 2WD Rokon motorbike towing tires behind it, it would provide a single track width trail. I think they would be able to negotiate our bike trails fairly well, might take a couple passes before you could drag the tires. If you had the right groomer (and spent the hours it would take to get all the appropriate permits), the possibilities could be endless, lots of single track trails could be put in almost anywhere once there is enough snow cover.

    I get the purity of packing trails by foot/dragging tires, but if tire dragging was as much fun as fatbiking it would be it's own sport.
    The Rokon Trai Breaker looks like it would work really well. Especially for maintaining a nice narrow trail.

  18. #18
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    I was just reading a "Fat-Bike.com" article and here is what the boys in WI are doing...erialC uaE | FAT-BIKE.COM

  19. #19
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    ak greeff,

    when you go out and drag the tire, how many passes do you make? Do you just drag it once and then let it set, or do you drag over multiple times? Do you drag just one tire or two? Also I'm sure it depends on temperature but typically how long does it take to set up after you dragged over some fresh snow? 1-2 nights?

    I've just been snowshoeing my trails I maintain but I'm thinking to trying the tire dragging.
    thanks

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by aksinglespeeder View Post
    I was just reading a "Fat-Bike.com" article and here is what the boys in WI are doing...erialC uaE | FAT-BIKE.COM
    Looks pretty sweet to me! I think I would actually enjoy riding that almost as much as biking! haha

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskairhog View Post
    ak greeff,

    when you go out and drag the tire, how many passes do you make? Do you just drag it once and then let it set, or do you drag over multiple times? Do you drag just one tire or two? Also I'm sure it depends on temperature but typically how long does it take to set up after you dragged over some fresh snow? 1-2 nights?

    I've just been snowshoeing my trails I maintain but I'm thinking to trying the tire dragging.
    thanks
    well the ideal set up is a 12 pack sitting in one of your tires for weight, preferably the one closest to you. No just kidding, Kincaider is the authority on tire dragging. ive been using his set up described as follows. Two 14 inch car tires spaced probably 14 inches apart, tied together with rope. He has fashioned a handle made out of an old hockey stick to the rope tied to the closest tire. We did an out and back last night from the stadium do to time constraints. Temperature and water content in the snow are probably the two biggest factor in determining how fast the trail sets up. I think giving it a night or a day would be best. Its pretty much the same with the piston bullies. If you ski right behind them, the trail will still be soft and punchy. If you give the trail some time to set up it will be more firm.
    litespeed's break

  22. #22
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    I rigged up 2 sets of tires and put them out on the trails at Kincaid they have red rope and blue hockey stick handles on them. Feel free to drag them around where ever you want. One set is at the beginning of the trail at the stadium. One set is at 4 corners at the bottom of the flowmax trail.

  23. #23
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    I really like the fact the tire can double as a holder for the 12 pack as you drag it and also tires are cheap and readily available but I was wondering if a roller of sorts would produce better results. Specifically i am thinking of one of those rollers used on the old clay tennis courts or something equivelent. If the diamter was larger enough it would roll pretty easily, just have to move quick on the downhills or get some poles (like those on expedition sleds) to stiffen things up. Maybe an empty keg?

  24. #24
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    Forrest, I think a roller of some sorts, with tire treads fixed to the outside would make an excellent trails with lots of traction to be had. Maybe with some kind of steel grate drag on the front of it to break down the snow before it get's rolled. Could be fairly light too, just fill it with snow once you get to the trail you're grooming.

  25. #25
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    I like this momentum! I think we're getting somewhere.
    c

  26. #26
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    I think we're going to need at least an 18pack for better compaction, as the 12 would be empty by the third kilometer.
    The Muni uses a roller to compact fresh powder on the Coastal and Chester Creek trails (along with a traditional scarifier drag for leveling). Basically you are just knocking the air out of the snow. More weight does a better job, but when self-propelled, only so much you can do. I'd love to get a Tundra and do some grooming again. Track packing without a drag at all works great.
    Speedway Cycles owner http://fatbackbikes.com

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    The last thing we need is the NSAA getting involved with winter trail grooming.....Buckle the chin strap and get out and ride or drag....Not too long after the groomer gets on the STA's they will want to turn it into a skier only trail equipped with a middle turn only lane.....I love me single tracks jus the way they are.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluffrydr View Post
    The last thing we need is the NSAA getting involved with winter trail grooming.....Buckle the chin strap and get out and ride or drag....Not too long after the groomer gets on the STA's they will want to turn it into a skier only trail equipped with a middle turn only lane.....I love me single tracks jus the way they are.
    I agree, no NSAA. They are busy enough with the ski trails. I can't imagine why NSAA would even entertain the idea of maintaining any singletrack. My thought was, WE would be in charge of own grooming operations.
    Get the permission required to operate a groomer (Rokon), pitch in $ and purchase, volunteer to operate after a snow event, and enjoy. Thats it.
    c

  29. #29
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    Funds

    From my understanding STA has some grant $ that needs to be used in the next two years.

    The Rokon Trailbreaker could be a viable winter as well as summer single track groomer.
    I would be willing to help develop and build some narrow track tow along implements.
    We need to submit the Rokon grooming idea to STA soon.

  30. #30
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    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vGGlODF7_RY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    Monsterbike - YouTube

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban AK View Post
    From my understanding STA has some grant $ that needs to be used in the next two years.

    The Rokon Trailbreaker could be a viable winter as well as summer single track groomer.
    I would be willing to help develop and build some narrow track tow along implements.
    We need to submit the Rokon grooming idea to STA soon.
    A Rokon runs about $6k and IMO is overkill for dragging a couple of tires. Northern Tool has a cheap fat-tire mini bike that has a lot less moving parts to maintain compared to a Rokon. They run only $600 a piece to start with too.

    I am thinking about getting a coupIe of these for the kids. Need to call to see how much shipping is to AK though.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Winter Singletrack Groomer-baja-heat.png  


  32. #32
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    Greg -- A Tundra? Really? Even the old Tundra with that sweet, paddle-less, makes-the-perfect-trail track is 22-inches too wide with its 36-inch ski width. Now granted, once the sides of the trail fall in the trail looks closer to the Tundra's 15-inch track width, but that's still a whole inch wider than Les's 14-inch tire. And c'mon now, be honest, wouldn't it be fun to watch someone try to get around on the Hillside trails with any sort of motorized, wheeled rig in these snow conditions? Great video, especially if they're trying to tow anything. Push-a-putt-putt, the new variation on push-a-bike. I wonder how one of those 205-pound Rokons push? My 30-pound Pugsley sometimes makes me wish for a weight-weenied Fatback, and there are only a few short stretches of uphill I have to push on the trails I ride. I wonder: If I spent more time towing tires and got in better shape would I able to ride those hills?

  33. #33
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    It is good to have these discussions, but I think we need to really think about what we would be trying to accomplish. Although something like a Rokon or other motorbike might seem like fun, the thought is to use it to try to pack/consolidate loose, fresh snow. Now, you might be able to get around on the packed trails with one of those okay (let me repeat, MIGHT), all I can see is it seriously augering out a soft trail. Consider that snowmachines (snowmobiles for those southern types) often get stuck in soft snow and they are designed to float on top and have a nice long, wide track rather than a round tire to push with. Consider that the singletrack trails have a lot of tight turns, so you would constantly be trying to lean or turn at slow speeds, meaning you would be digging in even more.

    I could be wrong, but I just don't see anything short of a snowmachine (considering the powered options here) having any success and I don't even see a snowmachine making a lot of the tight corners out there. I think human powered is really the only feasable method of "grooming" for most of our trails.

  34. #34
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    oh, you could get around all of the local trails on a snowgo but.... a.) you better be a pretty skilled rider; b.) any drag pulling would have to be done in a downhill direction (at least in new snow) to keep from ripping things up; and c.) some shoveling would be required in places. sharp, off-camber corners are even more of a b-i-t-c-h on a sled than on a bike, especially in fresh snow. the rokon looks nice, but from everything i've read about them there is a bit of a learning curve as they don't handle exactly like a cycle, bi or motor. a Yamaha TW200 (motorcycle version of a fatbike) might actually be better for anyone wanting to try the bike idea, but even there i'd expect a learning curve when taking a machine built for firm ground onto snow. still, how hard can it be? the $50 question, however, remains this: what do fatbikers want? true singletrack, which is damn hard to ride (at least for me) uphill on a fatbike or something a little wider like the 14-inch tire drag, or a 20-inch tire drag, or something all the way out to the width of a single snow-go pass? the latter is about the width of the entire surface of the STA Hillside trails. not the track down the middle of those trails in summer, but the whole trail bed. and lastly any grooming would require a permit from the Muni, given it's illegal to ride a snowmachine in this town. does anyone want to go to all that trouble?

  35. #35
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    A snow-track motorcross conversion would probably be a better option than a fat-tire wheeled motorcycle (RWD or 2WD) .
    EXPLORER Snow Bike Conversion Kit - Motorcycle USA

    These leave a 11" wide track and would be more capable and less damaging for constructing/grooming singletrac snow trail than a motorcycle with wheels.

  36. #36
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    I saw one several weekends ago here in town, it was attached to Yamaha 450 WR, the owner said he bought it last year in the lower 48 for $4,000.

  37. #37
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    JHSNOWBIKES.COM they have just the ticket ,i think a snowbike attachment to a 450 cc or lrgr dirtbike is just the ticket for packing the trails .the only problem is you might not want to peddle as much .those snowbikes are awesome .there are several different companys building kits and prices are resonable .check out some of the videos on you tube,you will want one .
    trlridr

  38. #38
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    Yeah!

    Quote Originally Posted by WildBillinAK View Post
    A Rokon runs about $6k and IMO is overkill for dragging a couple of tires. Northern Tool has a cheap fat-tire mini bike that has a lot less moving parts to maintain compared to a Rokon. They run only $600 a piece to start with too.

    I am thinking about getting a coupIe of these for the kids. Need to call to see how much shipping is to AK though.
    I want one!

  39. #39
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    I love the idea of the Rokon and I think a Rokon would do far better than a single wheel drive motorcycle like a TW200 with far less tendency to dig in. That said there would definitely be a learning curve as far as driving/grooming, really I don't think it's something you could expect STA to purchase and just let whoever go out to "groom" I imagine an inexperienced rider could do more damage to trails than they would be helping.

    I think it's going to take someone dedicated enough, and with enough cash, and enough time, to buy one and learn by packing their own trails, and show what is possible. With as popular as fatbiking becoming, maybe there will be enough people out there that things will be packed in quicker and quicker in the coming years.

  40. #40
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    Just out of curiosity, has anyone on here built winter trails using any sort of machinery? Snowshoes, skis and feet don't count because, for one thing, they don't have as much trouble with sidehills as machinery. And for another, most everyone has a lot of experience (at a basic level at least) in operating their feet. I rode my fatbike today. What had been a well-packed trail, which had survived all previous warmth, was falling apart beneath the new soft snow, and if you went off the rather narrow trail....well...forgetaboutit. I've come to the personal conclusion that for regular riding the best trail is the one packed in as tight as possible. It takes a lot more abuse from runners/walkers/hikers and lasts longer into the spring. But I'm not sure that's the sort of trail of interest to most other riders. Greg? Tundra boy? You've been around here a long time. Your opinion? Others?

  41. #41
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    I don't think it will be a good idea to have any ORV grooming machine in Kincaid nor will it get the blessing from P and R and Jodhpur MX neighbors.....Much work has been done to keep MX bikes and quads within the fenced in area of the Jodhpur MX park and only until recently it has shown some success. Giving the exposure of a motorcyle on the trails may increase illegal riding in the non motorized areas and intice and confuse those who have difficulty reading signs. Keep it simple.

  42. #42
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    Why not just make a small sled to pull behind a snow bike or snow shoes when the trail are to snowy just like the ones for sking adjust the weight as needed, seems like it would work well without the problems of a motorized groomer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    Why not just make a small sled to pull behind a snow bike or snow shoes when the trail are to snowy just like the ones for sking adjust the weight as needed, seems like it would work well without the problems of a motorized groomer.
    That is the essential idea with dragging tires. You need something with enough weight to actually consolidate/pack the snow, but also something you can drag. Being able to pull it behind a bike doesn't really matter since the reason you are pulling it is to pack the trails. If you can ride the trails enough to pull something with resistance, there isn't any need to pack them usually.

    One issue with a normal sled is that, like skis tend to do, they will span over soft spots and ride on the more firm ridges. This will leave a flat looking surface that is actually soft in places where it gapped over. Something like a tire will tend to push snow down into "voids" a bit more than something designed to slide over. It won't be perfect, but I dont think anything is at least that we know of.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    Greg -- A Tundra? Really? Even the old Tundra with that sweet, paddle-less, makes-the-perfect-trail track is 22-inches too wide with its 36-inch ski width. Now granted, once the sides of the trail fall in the trail looks closer to the Tundra's 15-inch track width, but that's still a whole inch wider than Les's 14-inch tire. And c'mon now, be honest, wouldn't it be fun to watch someone try to get around on the Hillside trails with any sort of motorized, wheeled rig in these snow conditions? Great video, especially if they're trying to tow anything. Push-a-putt-putt, the new variation on push-a-bike. I wonder how one of those 205-pound Rokons push? My 30-pound Pugsley sometimes makes me wish for a weight-weenied Fatback, and there are only a few short stretches of uphill I have to push on the trails I ride. I wonder: If I spent more time towing tires and got in better shape would I able to ride those hills?
    Look at the main loop out there right now. It's not 36" but it is not far off. It does get narrower as you get further from Jodphur. As long as Les, and others, are willing to drag tires this is, to me, sort of a moot discussion. As soon as they get tired then maybe we will need to look for other options. Greg, I have access to an old smooth track Tundra for what it's worth. Wonder if NSAA would store it for us.
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    I wouldn't mind doing some dragging on hillside STA trails. Sounds like a good workout. Can you tire draggers share your method. Tire with rim or without? Snowshoes? Pulled with some webbing in your hands? Attached to a harness?

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    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9-ltp7niqNI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    imagine this + bicycle.
    Motorcycle with a snow track kit hillclimbing at Arctic Man 2009 - YouTube

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    If anyone is really serious about going to motor-powered packing, the smooth-track Tundra is the ticket. I think John Evingson and Mike Sterling and a few others who were riding fatbikes long before it was trendy have some experience in putting in winter trails with a Tundra or a Yamaha Bravo, another narrow (29.5 inch ski width), relatively cheap, light machine with a bike friendly track, ie. no big paddles. A machine used right can lay down some awesome trails pretty quick. But there's a lot to be said to leaving trail grooming to those with the initiative to get on their snowshoes and tow tires. The Hillside could use a whole gang of people like that. Maybe if someone could get Midnight Sun Brewing to sponsor the tire towing party with free beer after?

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    I'd even go for a BYOB grooming party. And we could drink while snowshoeing, got to stay hydrated after all. Seriously if we announced a time and date to meet with the lure of post grooming imbibing I bet we would get a few takers.
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    SRYAN

    Like a post snowstorm 'celebration'. I'm in, sounds like more fun and effective than pushing my bike around.

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    Drinking and Grooming

    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    I'd even go for a BYOB grooming party. And we could drink while snowshoeing, got to stay hydrated after all. Seriously if we announced a time and date to meet with the lure of post grooming imbibing I bet we would get a few takers.
    Sounds like a plan... I think Elfbk50 could carry all the beer.... He needs the practice... Might even slow the boy down.......

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    Dome

    A couple buddies and I snowshoed up the dome to the 1/2 point, and hiked back down. We drove up to Basher road p.lot and rode down from the 1/2 point. It was a no go for a little while, but we were able to ride down most of it. A few more bodies down the trail should open it up. The upper 1/2 will get there with some time as most people go that way. So, if you feel like suffering a little, give it a shot. When that thing is open in the winter, it's rad.
    "Having lack of self-preservation makes biking more fun."

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    This is the set up I use to drag and pack the trails. I tried a kids sled last year and a Kincaid cruiser/Pre chariot. Sleds tip on their sides too much. Also you have to out run them on snow shoes on the down hills & you get banged in the heels. The sleds donít do medium to tight corners well at all. The tires are R15 they create a way smoother surface and pull easier. They are 100% easier to pull around corners. By the way here are some picture of some packing we did on the serenity cir trails up to the pump house. We hit this with a older skandic then you can see where it turns into the tire groomed section.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Winter Singletrack Groomer-photo-112-.jpg  

    Winter Singletrack Groomer-photo-113-.jpg  

    Winter Singletrack Groomer-photo-114-.jpg  

    Winter Singletrack Groomer-photo-115-.jpg  

    Winter Singletrack Groomer-photo-116-.jpg  


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    Sorry for the sideways pictures. The trails I was using the tires on yesterday are Behind NOAA on Sand Lake Rd & Raspberry Rd.

  54. #54
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    Just curious why no waist belt attachment? Seems like having your arms behind your back the whole time would be annoying.

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    I think I hurt my neck looking at this. Color me impressed. Great job. I love the enthusiasm this is bringing to winter riding here in Anch.......

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    Sean,
    I have an old Black Diamond climbing harness I attach it to. A Valeo Weight belt would probably be better. It is fine with a harness if you are dragging long strait stretches without curves. Same problem I had with the Kincaid cruiser kids sled. It had a good harness system with an aluminum poles that attached from harness to sled. Unfortunately I ended up pushing the sled with the harness because anytime you got to corners it wouldnít track. I end up just using the handle to drag the tires because if I need to choke up on the rope to go around tight corners it is easier. Long straits though the harness is the way to go.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kincaider View Post
    This is the set up I use to drag and pack the trails. I tried a kids sled last year and a Kincaid cruiser/Pre chariot. Sleds tip on their sides too much. Also you have to out run them on snow shoes on the down hills & you get banged in the heels. The sleds donít do medium to tight corners well at all. The tires are R15 they create a way smoother surface and pull easier. They are 100% easier to pull around corners. By the way here are some picture of some packing we did on the serenity cir trails up to the pump house. We hit this with a older skandic then you can see where it turns into the tire groomed section.
    litespeed's break

  58. #58
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    Thank you
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

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    Does the ol lady know you cut up her hockey stick?

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    You need to get yourself a vintage sled. I use my Sno-Jet to pack my trails. The track has shallow lugs and the ski stance is narrow. I'm putting together a "mini" Boa-Ski for next year. It is about 2/3 the size of my Sno-jet.


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    That's like a pre-"Jet" Snojet. The breed didn't really take off until they moved the engine off-center and started riding the front of the first real wave of snowmobile technology. I still have fond memories of the Thunder Jet 440 even if the Skidoo Skandic Tundra I'm taking up the Iditarod Trail would kick that machine's butt on a cross-country course. On the oval, though, on the oval.... OK, that's stupid reminiscing. What next, fond memories of Raleigh road bikes and Scandium Stumpies? Or Rocky R touting the Snowcat rim and a 2.55 Weirwolf as "all you'll ever need."

  62. #62
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    That Sno;Jet is BADASS.

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    That is pretty cool. The trail width it lays down is pretty nice.

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    Major props to Mark. He pulled a truck tire around the whole Kincaid STA system. Then he regroomed the inner loop last night. Thanks man youíre a animal. PS here is a picture I found while looking for groomer ideas.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    This just in.....

    Just got access to one of these through my work. Hope to try it out in the next couple days out at Kincade, the new snow should prove to be a good test of its ability. It is about 40 lbs empty and is usually filled with water but i will see how it does with some sand. It might get interesting on some of the short steeps if this baby gets rolling! Keep you all posted.......
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    Was out with Maura Shea & AK Greef snowshoe packing and dragging the Inner loop down to 4 corners and the new connector and back. Added my new 6 pack of beer mod to the rear tire.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Winter Singletrack Groomer-photo-120-.jpg  


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    Haven't poked my head in here for a while and almost forgot what new snow means to fatbiking. Means it doesn't happen; a lot more often. Also means one has to either a) do something else that day, or b) pack the trails themself just to ride. Don't know what I thought would have changed. More traffic? Better bikes? New equipment? Fatter tires?

    Nice dragging tool, though. Looks good. It also just doesn't look like any fun. Thanks for the reminder.

    Back to the couch. and cheetos

  68. #68
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    Dome Trail

    [QUOTE=forrestvt;9051823]Just got access to one of these through my work. Hope to try it out in the next couple days out at Kincade, the new snow should prove to be a good test of its ability. It is about 40 lbs empty and is usually filled with water but i will see how it does with some sand. It might get interesting on some of the short steeps if this baby gets rolling! Keep you all posted.......[/QUOTE


    Although, that might be a nice way to earn a Darwin Award.
    "Having lack of self-preservation makes biking more fun."

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    Al, It has been a long time. I can't say that dragging is fun thats for sure. Put a sixer in the cooler and it makes it a little easier. Definatly a good leg workout. I would definatly rather be riding than dragging. The guy in the parking lot at Jodpher yesterday with one one of the local bike shop stickers in his window told Ryan & I though " You know if you wait some one elese will pack the trails out" Huh?

  70. #70
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    That's right, someone else always does. A lady walks her poopy dog, somebody skis, a moose goes by, a runner, somebody feels guilty for leaving a new piece of exceptionally expensive equipment in the garage so drags their bike around for two hours.

    Meanwhile, back at the Lair, you watch back to back episodes of Magnum PI on Netflix and try not to get too fat off macaroni, cheese and Guiness. A day or so later, maybe in the early morning before work after the trails have had time to set up and after a few more pedestrians, moose, dogs and skiers have kicked it down some more, you venture out to find the trails amazingly marginally ridable.

    I developed a deep appreciation for all other trail users during winter riding on fat tires. 'Course, I HAD to, none of you were there with your six packs of beer and trail-smoothing confangleries (Seriously, you guys are badasses. Or addicts, there's little difference).

    Nawp, back in my day...

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhansen View Post
    That's right, someone else always does. A lady walks her poopy dog, somebody skis, a moose goes by, a runner, somebody feels guilty for leaving a new piece of exceptionally expensive equipment in the garage so drags their bike around for two hours.

    Meanwhile, back at the Lair, you watch back to back episodes of Magnum PI on Netflix and try not to get too fat off macaroni, cheese and Guiness. A day or so later, maybe in the early morning before work after the trails have had time to set up and after a few more pedestrians, moose, dogs and skiers have kicked it down some more, you venture out to find the trails amazingly marginally ridable.

    I developed a deep appreciation for all other trail users during winter riding on fat tires. 'Course, I HAD to, none of you were there with your six packs of beer and trail-smoothing confangleries (Seriously, you guys are badasses. Or addicts, there's little difference).

    Nawp, back in my day...
    Wow, this thread even drew Al out of retirement! Look what we've had to resort to now that we don't have you out packing them in at 0400 hours every day, Al. Get another fatbike, lasso yourself a truck tire and saddle up and ride. We need your enthusiasm out there! You're still the only guy I can think of that can push his bike for two hours through the fresh snow and still call it "bomber".
    c

  72. #72
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    help. too much snow. can't keep up on the neighborhood trail. would anyone like to come drag a tire for me?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxx4 View Post
    You need to get yourself a vintage sled. I use my Sno-Jet to pack my trails. The track has shallow lugs and the ski stance is narrow. I'm putting together a "mini" Boa-Ski for next year. It is about 2/3 the size of my Sno-jet.

    A VT museum currently has a snowmobile exhibit, with a very similar '69 Sno-Jet 150, and you might like the '48 Bombarfier B-12.
    from Snow Mobiles: Sleighs to Sleds ę Shelburne Museum
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    What about an Arctic Cat Kitty Cat? I think the tracks are 10" and total stance is said to be 17.5". Bonus it's light enough to throw around.

  76. #76
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    https://www.google.com/search?q=arct...2BV-SQM%3AYeah, I thought about that too, but it's a 60cc motor-might need to get a little kid to ride it .

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