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  1. #1
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Surly Pugsley Fork or other

    To all:

    A few Surly Pugsley questions:

    I don't own a Surly Pugsley, so some questions might sound as if I'm lost!

    Does it have a 1-1/8 headtube?

    Does anyone else other than Surly make a fork, and or, frame that will accept the 4 inch tire and wheel set-up?

    Can I run 29 inch Wheels on a Surly Pugsely?

    Thanks
    LC

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  2. #2
    Diaskeuast
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    A few answers

    I just built my Pugsley two weeks ago, so you'll get more detailed responses from more knowledegable folks on the forum, but yes on the 1 1/8" head tube. And I know people here in Anchorage who are running Bontrager forks on Pugsley frames, as well as at least one guy running a really nice fork made by our local guy, John Evingson.

    Or you could get a Wildfire Designs bike: http://www.wildfirecycles.com/home.html
    Enjoying the meaningful pursuit of meaningless fun.

  3. #3
    Baked Alaskan
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    The 29er question is tough, yes you can, but it'll be odd. Pugs wheels are built to compensate for the Endomorph's girth by being offset a bit, something like 35mm if I remember right. That info is on Surly's site in the Pugs FAQ. But the Endo is about the same diameter as a 29er tire.

    So if you build a set of "normal" wheels with the same dish they will fit and line up - I think. No guarantee as to their strength either.

    I don't have the time to search, but there have been a few posts that show a regular wheel in the Pugs dropouts, I think the build post from "Dirtdad" had the pics.

    As far as the forks - in addition to what's above, check out Tscheezy's posts, he runs a Maverick 29er fork and the Endo's clear, so he has ffont suspension on his Pugs.
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  4. #4
    Caveman
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    Pretty sure you can run normal 29er wheels without the offset dish on the wildfires..

    O'wild one?

    You defientally dont want to do it with the pugsley and normal dish 29er wheels, it looks freak show and since they are not offset correctally, the tire contact patch will not lie along the axis of the frame and your center of gravity. if that makes sence...

  5. #5
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    Pugs

    To add to Tim's post, Pugs has an off-set frame, meaning the wheels are built a little to one side(17.5 for Pugs) so the chain won't hit the tire in low gears. Yes, you can use 29" wheels in Pugs, but they need to be built off-set to fit straight in the frame.
    As for forks, Surly will offer a front hub fork this summer as an option to the rear hub front fork that comes with Pugs. I've been riding the new fork and I can tell you, it rides like a fork! It has all the braze-on rack mounts in the right places, it's built specifically for the Pugs geometry, and it's black. And at 50+ below in Barrow for the 3 weeks I was there, I had no problems with the fork. Use this fork if you don't use a front brake (which most of us don't) or you don't mind deflating/inflating the tire each time you remove the wheel.
    The stock fork for Pugs fits a rear wheel which allows you to use a front disc brake without dealing with tire inflation, and allows another rear wheel option if you want to single-speed it.
    Right now the plan is for Pugs to come stock with the rear-wheel front fork, with the regular fork as an aftermarket item, but that could change if enough folks demand it.
    Pugs also takes a 100mm bottom bracket and I can gladly report that I've had zero problems with my ISIS BB. I'm not a big fan of ISIS, but the downhill version, which is what you have to get for Pugs' 100mm shell, has been flawless. We should see the Surly crank later this year which will offer an external bearing BB option for Pugs.

    As for other fat tire frame builders, look no further than the Wildfire that Tim mentioned. Mark is the trailblazer when it comes to Snow Bike design and builds the finest fat-tire frames out there. And he rides....alot!

    Pat

  6. #6
    Mr.Secret
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    No comment

  7. #7
    Caveman
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    a plug about the thunderwing perhaps?

  8. #8
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    Ugh

    Rick,
    you're no fun anymore....
    Ride 29ers and change your life forever....

    P

  9. #9
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    I'm wondering about going the other way, trying to fit an endo into a regular 29er frame. When I get home I am going to mount one of my endos on to a snowcat and see if I can stuff it into the rear triangle of my sultan, this is what it looks like with with a weirwolf 2.55 LT
    .....cheatin' life, and peelin' out on the lawn.........
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  10. #10
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by patirwin
    Rick,
    you're no fun anymore....
    Ride 29ers and change your life forever....

    P
    Pat, I've been ridin' 29er's for years, you know, those 700c road rockets those count don't they ?

  11. #11
    Alaska Turner Mafia
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.T.R.
    Pat, I've been ridin' 29er's for years......
    These count don't they?
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    Deceleration Trauma is my middle name

  12. #12
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    Warning: Technical Content

    Hey Proformance,

    Lesser known companies who have built or are still building fat wheeled frames and forks for quite a while now:
    Remolino, Icycle, Viscious, Wildfire, DeSalvo, Evingson, Gunnar, Moots, Willits. Of these, Wildfire, DeSalvo, Evingson (I think), Viscious, and maybe Moots are still making them. We also make forks for the FatBikes complete with rack braze-ons (in the right places, too) which are 465mm axle to crown distance so you can swap them out with a 29er suspension fork in the summer and not screw up the steering geometry.

    29er wheels on your Pugsley:

    The Wildfire FatBike frames I sell use a 19.5mm offset, I think the Pugs uses a 17.5 mm. I've been riding 29er wheels on my FatBike for quite a while now. On our frames, I have to build the rear wheel assymetrically to match the offset on the frame. I am a bit of a Clydesdale and I am still riding on the first one I built five years ago, it's a single wall Weinmann hybrid rim (all that was available at the time) not known for it's strength but it is still running true. Here's a couple things to keep in mind:

    Hubs: There's quite a bit of variation amongst the various manufacturers and models available. I've had the best results with the Shimano six bolt disc hubs which have a spoke flange to non-drive locknut distance of ~36 mm. Some higher zoot factor hubs that are close to this include the Hugi/DT Swiss and Chris King. Don't use a WTB Laser Lite Disc or American Classic because the spoke flange to locknut distance is ~42 mm.

    Rims: For a bit stronger wheel you can use a Bontrager Mustang OSB rim which has the spoke holes drilled off center by around 2 mm. There may be some other rim models available now which have off-center drilling.You'll need to flip it around bass ackwards from the normal orientation. The SnowCat 29er rims works great for this use because it can be drilled 10mm offcenter but good luck getting your hands on a pair.

    Spoke Length:On most regular MTB wheels, you would use 2 mm shorter spoke lengths on the drive side as opposed to the non-drive side of the wheel. On a Pugs or FatBike you would use 3mm shorter spokes on the drive side, opposite from normal. The result of this is very tight spokes on the non-drive side and relatively looser spokes on the drive side because of the differant spoke lengths. Make sure you use a good thread lock compound to hold everything together as a precaution. Admitably not ideal as far as wheel strength, but it works. Probably not a good choice for really agressive riding, jumps, etc.

    Forks: We've been using a 100mm spaced fork with no offset since the beginning. I havn't had problems getting the inflated tire past the brake caliper. It is a tight fit but it goes on okay with a little bit of wiggling at pressures less then 20 psi.

    Hey Bones, is that chain gonna clear those Endomorphs on your Sultan? It looks kinda close in your photo.

    Here's a picture of an off-center built 29er wheel that fits my FatBike and a Bontrager Mustang OSB rim.
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    Last edited by Wildfire; 03-23-2007 at 12:34 PM.
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  13. #13
    Baked Alaskan
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    Nice...

    Quote Originally Posted by bones get broke
    I'm wondering about going the other way, trying to fit an endo into a regular 29er frame. When I get home I am going to mount one of my endos on to a snowcat and see if I can stuff it into the rear triangle of my sultan, this is what it looks like with with a weirwolf 2.55 LT...
    Keep us posted on that one. The Sultan is calling me in a big way. That would derfinitely replace the Spot in my stable.
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  14. #14
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    Not Sure...

    yet what problems I will encounter. I have quite a bit of wiggle room though with BB spacers and I saw where Tscheezy JB welded two Der. hangers together to clear a Nokian. I think it will be fun just to see what I can come up with. I'll post some pictures if it works.
    .....cheatin' life, and peelin' out on the lawn.........
    -Sage Francis

  15. #15
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones get broke
    yet what problems I will encounter. I have quite a bit of wiggle room though with BB spacers and I saw where Tscheezy JB welded two Der. hangers together to clear a Nokian. I think it will be fun just to see what I can come up with. I'll post some pictures if it works.
    Clay, man, you're not really gonna' do that with your new Sultan are you ?

  16. #16
    FatBike Fiend
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.T.R.
    Clay, man, you're not really gonna' do that with your new Sultan are you ?
    I've got a hack saw and a pipe wrench if you need some help
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  17. #17
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire
    I've got a hack saw and a pipe wrench if you need some help

  18. #18
    Caveman
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    play nice boys

  19. #19
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    I was also thinking of converting thee Sultan to a sweet a$$ dirt jump piece. I'm thinking a 150mm fork with a 24" rear wheel would work. How 'bout it Rick? you got any 48 hole 24" hoops in stock?
    .....cheatin' life, and peelin' out on the lawn.........
    -Sage Francis

  20. #20
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearbait
    play nice boys
    I will but hacksaws and pipewrench's are kinda' girly, I was thinking along the lines of a splittin' mall

  21. #21
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones get broke
    I was also thinking of converting thee Sultan to a sweet a$$ dirt jump piece. I'm thinking a 150mm fork with a 24" rear wheel would work. How 'bout it Rick? you got any 48 hole 24" hoops in stock?
    Come on, 24" wheelz, whutz wrong with 20" 48 hole ? And you'll also need one of those de-tanglers on yer headtube so that yer cables don't break while yer spinnin' yer h-barz while airborne.......
    Last edited by R.T.R.; 03-23-2007 at 05:44 PM.

  22. #22
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    Screw brakes and gears.
    I'm thinkin one speed an old school "foot in the back tire" brakes.
    .....cheatin' life, and peelin' out on the lawn.........
    -Sage Francis

  23. #23
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones get broke
    Screw brakes and gears.
    I'm thinkin one speed an old school "foot in the back tire" brakes.
    ..........foot on the front wheel behind the fork legs and gracefully stepping over the barz and sticking the landing ?.......I'm hip to that

  24. #24
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by R.T.R.
    ..........foot on the front wheel behind the fork legs and gracefully stepping over the barz and sticking the landing ?.......I'm hip to that
    You might have created a new class of biking

    Freestyle, Streetstyle, Pug-o-cross!

    I never tried a Miami Hopper on my MTB!
    Proformance Cycle
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  25. #25
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    You might have created a new class of biking

    Freestyle, Streetstyle, Pug-o-cross!

    I never tried a Miami Hopper on my MTB!
    Well, how about it Carlos, think it would fit in ?

  26. #26
    No, that's not phonetic
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    While I highly doubt it will work, I am also extremely curious what the Sutlan rear end will clear. I think it uses the old stock 5-Spot and Flux yokes and dropouts, and just uses longer runs of tubing to accomodate the 29" wheel size. That means the inside width of the yokes are just a hair over 3" and well short of the 3.7" needed to fit an Endomorph. Height-wise it should work, just not width-wise. This is the opposite problem the RFX rear triangles run into.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  27. #27
    rio
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    been there, crashed that

    only if its a Husky or KTM

    Quote Originally Posted by R.T.R.
    Well, how about it Carlos, think it would fit in ?

  28. #28
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    "Spoke Length:On most regular MTB wheels, you would use 2 mm shorter spoke lengths on the drive side as opposed to the non-drive side of the wheel. On a Pugs or FatBike you would use 3mm shorter spokes on the drive side, opposite from normal"

    I haven't had my coffee yet, so I'm probably just being stupid, but could you clarify this a little. So there should be a 3mm difference between the sides as opposed to the regular 2 mm difference? Or are you saying a 5mm difference between the sides?

    Pete

  29. #29
    FatBike Fiend
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    This works for me

    Quote Originally Posted by paramount
    "Spoke Length:On most regular MTB wheels, you would use 2 mm shorter spoke lengths on the drive side as opposed to the non-drive side of the wheel. On a Pugs or FatBike you would use 3mm shorter spokes on the drive side, opposite from normal"

    I haven't had my coffee yet, so I'm probably just being stupid, but could you clarify this a little. So there should be a 3mm difference between the sides as opposed to the regular 2 mm difference? Or are you saying a 5mm difference between the sides?

    Pete
    Pete,

    When you do a calculation using Sutherland's,a computer spoke calc program, or whatever, you arriveat a length for the non-drive spokes of regular non-offset mountain bike rear wheel. Then you usually deduct 2 mm from that figure to get the spoke length for the drive side spokes, right? Well on a FatBike or Pugsley which has an offset rear triangle, I add 1mm to the original figure and use the longer spokes on the drive side, then subtract 3 mm from that to figure the length for the non-drive side spokes. So yeah, there is usually a 3mm differance between the two spoke lengths when building a rear wheel (or a front wheel for a Pugs with the offset front fork) with a rim that is center drilled. Capiche? I know this sounds strange and it is, but it works for me. Trial and error to the rescue.
    Last edited by Wildfire; 03-26-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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  30. #30
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire
    Pete,

    When you do a calculation using Sutherland's,a computer spoke calc program, or whatever, you arriveat a length for the non-drive spokes of regular non-offset mountain bike rear wheel. Then you usually deduct 2 mm from that figure to get the spoke length for the drive side spokes, right? Well on a FatBike or Pugsley which has an offset rear triangle, I add 1mm to the original figure and use the longer spokes on the drive side, then subtract 3 mm from that to figure the length for the non-drive side spokes. So yeah, there is usually a 3mm differance between the two spoke lengths when building a rear wheel (or a front wheel for a Pugs with the offset front fork) with a rim that is center drilled. Capiche? I know this sounds strange and it is, but it works for me. Trial and error to the rescue.
    I've always just plugged the ERD of the Large Marge, center or offset drilled, rims into my Wheelsmith spoke calculator along with the hub dimensions and come up with perfect length spokes every time........am I missing something ?

  31. #31
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    Cool

    Thanks for the info.

    I built up a OSB Bontrager rim about 4 years ago for my Wildfire to tour on and it self-destructed after about 2000 miles of loaded touring, but I'm starting to think this had more to do with a crappy rim (first gen 28 hole Bontrager race lite) than the weird tension from the offset. Sounds like its possible to build a strong wheel with the offset.

    Pete

  32. #32
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramount
    Cool

    Thanks for the info.

    I built up a OSB Bontrager rim about 4 years ago for my Wildfire to tour on and it self-destructed after about 2000 miles of loaded touring, but I'm starting to think this had more to do with a crappy rim (first gen 28 hole Bontrager race lite) than the weird tension from the offset. Sounds like its possible to build a strong wheel with the offset.

    Pete
    .........hmmm, 28 spoke wheel for loaded touring ?
    Last edited by R.T.R.; 03-27-2007 at 11:08 PM.

  33. #33
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    Hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by R.T.R.
    I've always just plugged the ERD of the Large Marge, center or offset drilled, rims into my Wheelsmith spoke calculator along with the hub dimensions and come up with perfect length spokes every time........am I missing something ?
    Yeah but what about the offset? Can you plug in a "virtual" hub with both spoke flanges 18.5mm toward the drive side to figure the spoke lengths for a wheel to fit an offset rear triangle? I'm not that familiar with the Wheelsmith Spoke Calc program. It's great if it will allow you to do that.
    I've kept records of all the spoke lengths for wheels I've built for FatBikes and Pugsleys. if anyone gets stumped, send me an email, I've probably built the same set up before and can tell you the spoke lengths you'll need..
    Owner, Trailwerx Trails Contracting
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  34. #34
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire
    Yeah but what about the offset? Can you plug in a "virtual" hub with both spoke flanges 18.5mm toward the drive side to figure the spoke lengths for a wheel to fit an offset rear triangle? I'm not that familiar with the Wheelsmith Spoke Calc program. It's great if it will allow you to do that.
    I've kept records of all the spoke lengths for wheels I've built for FatBikes and Pugsleys. if anyone gets stumped, send me an email, I've probably built the same set up before and can tell you the spoke lengths you'll need..
    What length spokes does the ISO XT rear 32 hole hub take with the offset Large Marge for a Pugs / Wildfire build ?

  35. #35
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    Yeah, yeah. not the smartest setup, but I got a smoking deal on the wheelset and I'm pretty that it wasn't the lack of 4 spokes that led to the demise of the rim so much as the wacky tension and a poor rim quality. And the fat chick riding on the rear rack most of the way

  36. #36
    Mr.Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger
    Yeah, yeah. not the smartest setup, but I got a smoking deal on the wheelset and I'm pretty that it wasn't the lack of 4 spokes that led to the demise of the rim so much as the wacky tension and a poor rim quality. And the fat chick riding on the rear rack most of the way
    Who was the fat chick?

  37. #37
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    Spoke length

    Quote Originally Posted by R.T.R.
    What length spokes does the ISO XT rear 32 hole hub take with the offset Large Marge for a Pugs / Wildfire build ?
    Rick,

    Spoke lengths for Shimano XT FHB M756 rear hub/ Surly Large Marge offset rim (3X):

    Drive 258mm Non-drive 258mm

    Can't ask for a stronger rear wheel then that .
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  38. #38
    PM Me for Wood Fenders
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    you guys seem to know what's up with these snow bikes. I just saw a Pugsly for the first time today when ordering my Cross Check...at fist I thought it was a joke, but was told it's a snow bike. So, what's the budget needed to get started in one of these? I live in Michigan and ride Nokian Extreames in the winter, which serves my purpose quite well, but now this gives me another reason for another bike in the garage!!!!
    The wood is being bent! Let me know what you need!

  39. #39
    Wood chips are stupid
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    ... and if we just ... roll a fattie

    You could build up a Pugs,with Lg Marge rims and big fat tires for around $1500 with trust worthy parts. If you ride in soft snow alot,such as snowmachine trails and ski trails etc. a fattie is the only way to go. Even if you ride hard packed trails, a fattie still makes ruts,hills,ice and other trail cheengers less trouble. Pump up those Marges to about 25#and you can really fly on groomers! Take a look at some of the posts here on the Alaska from the winter season. You will see tons of pics of fatties and post loaded with info. Alaska just might be the Pugs capitol of the universe!


    akdeluxe
    "Trust me,you don't want a big baby."

    JT

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