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  1. #1
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    Iditarod Trail Invitational ???

    Hello all!
    I am constantly milling over logistics and details of the race. I was trying to figure out how one gets from MaGrath back to start, anchorage, or somewhere other then. I e-mailed Bill M. and replied stating there is an airstrip with flights that you can catch for about $200 that he will post more info on and confirm.
    I also asked if there was a place people could meet and or possibly share info., logistics, expenses, local offerings of help, knowledge etc. via. the internet.
    If we can use this thread as an info. gathering place it can help many.
    Another question, I thought I read about 2 snow machines heading out first is that something that has always happened? are they breaking and or setting trail to follow?
    Thats it for now more to follow.
    Thanxs.
    Jay

  2. #2
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    Hi Jay
    Good to see your name on the roster.I think we will be bumping into each other next year with similar race plans.Bill is obviously the man to ask regards your questions but i will chirp the little i know.Firstly the flight back from McGrath is real easy.Its a huge plane,theres not much adventure in it,you can usually travel with your bike otherwise they deliver later and Peter and Tracy the race hosts in Mcgrath are unbelievably helpful and will be hugging you saying goodbye as you board the plan.Theres a cash machine in a store in McGrath(very unusual thing on the iditarod trail) or you can pay with a card at the flight check in.Bill usually gets a special rate for the racers.Remember your passport.
    I might stand to be corrected on this but as for info on the rest of the race i think Bill wants you to find out yourself.He has this perverse sense of humour where he wont endanger you but he wants you to go through the motions.The race host B/B in Anchorage advertised on Bills site is a good place to hang with the racers before the race but everyone is a little subdued and are only really interested in getting to REI for the next must have gizmo.Every year paranoia reigns with rumours of overflow,avalanche warnings etc etc.Of course something you know anyway is your set up is very personel to yourself.I couldnt get away with how Rocky leaves Knik lake for example so i choose to be self sufficient out there which is the best advise Bill ever gave me.This means i travel with alot of crap hanging of my bike but i feel safe.You will read a bunch of threads on here usually by Adam who winds us euros up telling us how hes ridden out to luces,bivied,tried a new set up,tested a new speedo blah,blah.I have 3 files about 4 inches thick of reports i found on the web written by pat norvil,mike curiak,peter etc.All helped me in a huge way.The stories on the race site are also excellent.Read Alan Tillings account which is about a first attempt at the race.This is a great account as well
    http://www.bluedome.co.uk/MoutainBik...002/index.html
    As for the snow machines ive never been leading the race to know if there has been one.In 2004 the weather was so bad they couldnt fly the volunteers to rohn so Bill had to man it and he was the snowmobile rider.Despite Bill riding over rainy pass Peter who was leading the race didnt have a defined trail to follow.I think its best not to rely on a snowmobile although i also read there a 2 and that surprised me.Maybe Bill can answer that or maybe he wants 2 to keep Rocky and Peter from killing each other.
    If i can help then feel free to send me a pm.It would be really cool if Pat irwin chipped in with his experiences.That guy knows alot but is pretty scarce.we miss you Pat,where are you???
    If you do start to plough through the www you will discover im the worse person to answer this thread.Ive had mixed fortunes on the trail,in fact im sure Bill has me for comedy value.

    Carl
    Last edited by carlhutch; 12-07-2006 at 02:15 PM.

  3. #3
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    Hey Jay,
    The race info on the web is a great place to start. As the winter heats up this forum is a good place for trail reports etc. The conditions are quite variable. The best thing to do, as Carl suggested, is to search the web and this forum to see what other people use and then try and figure out your own gear from there. I think you will find other racers quite friendly and willing to give advice but you might have trouble getting specifics. I donít think this is because anyone is trying to hide their ďsecret gearĒ its just that gear choices are very personal so one persons good idea may be a really bad idea for you. The best advice I ever got was from Pat Irwin who shared with me his philosophy on how much gear to carry.... Pat said ďItís better to be looking at it than to be looking for it.Ē.
    The best advice I can give is find a way to test your gear before the race, eliminate the stuff that doesnít work and keep the stuff that does. Then prepare for everything you can think of and keep in mind that at least one or two things that you arenít prepared for will happen/go wrong.
    Good Luck

    Adam
    I wanna say I'm sorry for stuff I haven't done yet, things will shortly get completely out of hand --T.M.G.

  4. #4
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    When you get to McGrath youíll probably ride around the town in a daze for awhile looking for Peterís house. Youíll either bump into it, identifiable by the old Iditasport banner that he puts out front, or some one in the town will notice you riding around and escort you to his place no matter what time it is. Theyíll probably be drunk, but you wonít care. Once you get there you can hang out for as long as you like. I think Pat Irwin has the record for this. Tracy works for the airline that youíll fly out on and sheíll get you all set up so you really donít have to do anything but lounge around eating mancakes and wondering if your life will ever seem the same again. The airport is close. You just ride over to it and put you bike on without disassembling it.

    As for snowmobiles. Every year there is the intention to have at least one machine out in front of the racers but usually it doesnít stay that way the whole time. By Puntilla Lake, the race leaders typically catch up to the machines and pass them sometimes for the remainder of the race. They are there to break the trail once and after that, what happens happens. If they are out in front of all the racers they might put up a few markers, but donít count on it. The trail can vary from being fast, hard and easy to find, to completely non existent. Sometimes there is a trail out there that has existed for over a week if the weather is favorable, but usually the snowmobiles with the race are periodically breaking in new sections of trail where it has been windblown. Like mentioned by Carl and Adam, be prepared to be completely self-sufficient.

    The trail from the start is easy to find up until past Flathorn
    The trails out on the Su, Yetna, and Skwetna can sometimes be tricky to follow. Sometimes itís real obvious. Just depends on the year and snowmobile traffic. You just have to pay attention and check your map if you donít have tracks to follow. Out of Skwetna is initially tricky sometimes, but then the trail is usually easy to follow up to Puntilla. The pass can be a *****, just depends on how much of a rush you are to get over. The first time itís best to have a trail to follow. Leaving Puntilla at the right time of day really helps to make this section less painful, but I guess thatís one of those things you have to figure out on your own. From Rhone to McGrath there is typically a pretty easy to find trail. Inevitably, every year there are a few sections that will mess you up, but as long as you pay attention you probably wonít have to pull out a map.

  5. #5
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    Thanxs everyone.

    Peter, did you say maps? Where does one find the most understanding and useful of maps without a bunch of quads? Would love to get my hands on them.

    Will we be able to resupply drinking water at each of the check points?A la no stove.

    Jay

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay P
    Thanxs everyone.

    Peter, did you say maps? Where does one find the most understanding and useful of maps without a bunch of quads? Would love to get my hands on them.

    Will we be able to resupply drinking water at each of the check points?A la no stove.

    Jay
    As far as maps, I'm not sure what Pete has in mind. Maybe it's one of those Alaskan tricks that he's not willing to share. My experience has been that maps are pretty much useless on this course, because 1. The Trail isn't always on them, and 2. Even if it is on them, it's location on the map rarely coincides with it's actual location on the ground, which changes from storm to storm. Not trying to dissuade you from locating maps, just telling you that I've never found a good one, and as a result haven't bothered with them since '98. You can't get off The Trail (unless you don't notice yourself wallowing waist deep in snow) except at a split, and the splits are rarely marked on maps or on the ground, so you simply (believe it or not) have to take a solid guess at which way is the right way. People get off course (rarely for long) every year, and not only rookies do it. The race leader has it toughest in this respect, while those following are usually able to simply follow the leader's tracks.

    It's tempting to skimp on gear to shave weight/bulk, but fergawdsakes don't skimp on the essentials: real -40 sleeping bag, closed cell foam pad, down jacket, and stove. The going is good (and sometimes even easy) as long as it's alright, but things happen so fast and you will not believe the speed with which conditions/luck can change. If you get to a point where you can't move (not necessarily injured, but maybe the trail is blown in and you have to wait for a snowmachine to come through to break it out) and you have no stove, well, may the force be with you. It's *not* always possible to build a fire out there--in places there are no trees for miles at a stretch, and without a trail it's difficult to go 100 meters, much less miles.

    One last thing, possibly already mentioned by Adam or Carl: Don't get too hung up on what other people tell you to do/use (including me) because it just might not work for *you*. Figure out what gear you think you'll need, then head out on an overnight ride (preferably be out for two nights, with few chances to bail off of your chosen course) and try to simulate conditions you'll get in the race. In other words, cold and windy, with soft snow. Be self-sufficient while you're out (no stopping into convenience stores for food or to get warm) and you will learn more in those two days than you thought possible, and that's worth waaayyyy more than you can get from any internet message board. Then, take what you've learned, change what didn't work, then go out and do it once more before you fly north. Don't wait--this takes some time and thinkering.

    Surely you must have plenty of snowmobile trails up there (Jackson, right?) to use for a test like this...?

    Have fun with it.

    MC

  7. #7
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    Iditarod.com

    Jay,

    There's a fairly detailed course description at http://www.iditarod.com written from a dog musher's perspective but it's the same course you'll be on all the way to McGrath. Good luck in the race, you'll love it. And yes the advise above is sound, especially about bringing a stove, cook pot, pad, and sleeping bag. Also bring full on wind pants and jacket and a windproof face mask for going over the pass, it can be brutally windy up there (like last year, brrr.)

    Good luck in the race. If Jay does as well in this one as he did in the Su 100 last year, watch out.
    Owner, Trailwerx Trails Contracting
    Palmer, Alaska
    www.trailwerx.com

  8. #8
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    Thereís a good chance you wonít touch your maps, but do you want to take that chance?
    And it is true that they are not always that useful because of the ever-changing trail. That said, I have used my maps almost every year at least once. Maybe Iím just retarded.
    Also, maps are really only useful if you know how to use them. I barely do but when I have its been like this:
    Between the Su and Skwetna Roadhouse there are at least 3 places I know that you can take a wrong turn that may take hours to figure out. People, veterans of the race, do it every year. Using the map and paying attention to basic North, South can save you this trouble.

    Crossing the lakes or wide open spots when the wind has blown over the trail is where I use them most of the time. If youíre going to be slogging for a while its nice to aim in the general right direction in these instances. The trail marked on the map is usually good in this respectÖ.where it hits land again at the other side of a lake or some other wide open spot. I also figure out where I am by looking at the contours and landmarks on the map relative to what I see in front of me.

    Finding the opening to the pass if the ridgeline is visible. Maps are useful her if there is no trail here. True, that usually it is better to feel around for the old trail, but you canít always count on this.

    Canít remember where I got my maps. Think they were made especially for touring the trail. Basically a bunch of small sections of bigger USGS maps. That are blown-up, copied and assembled in order.

    Those trail notes Wildfire pointed to are really good to look at.

  9. #9
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    regards water and check points.You know luces,skwentna is the same deal,you can fill up by the tap in the kitchen.You can also buy food, sleep in a room upstairs at skwentna if you wish to and theres space.I expect you will be covering ground pretty quickly and if the trail is very rideable you should find yourself at the checkpoints without crowds.everyone dries there gear of by the wood stoves and even with 3 racers in front of you ive found space around a stove is pretty tight.Shell lake on a good day is 4-5 hours from skwentna and you can find water,food,alcohol and beds there for a fee.Its a hard place to ride past as the trail goes right past the door.Finger lake,again from the tap,here is your first drop packs,tented accomadation and food provided for free.About 8 hours if all is good from finger,usually quite a bit of walking on this part of the trail you will come to Mike and ingrids sign pointing to their cabin about 100 metres of to the right of the trail.I find it impossible to ride past their place.They stay in their cabin a couple of months each year and are the most friendly folk.They set a tent up with a stove in for the racers and have a fire going with a pot of water on.Its not guaranteed they will be there i guess but they always seem to be.At puntilla the race hires a cabin,water and food and a bed if theres space.Theres also a lodge there for a shot of brandy before the pass.Sharon who runs the lodge is a mike curiak grouppie,just pretend you know mike really well and she will move mtns for you.In 04 it took Alan tilling and myself 18 hrs to get to the top of the pass,we had no trail,we kept walking of the trail and falling up to our waist in snow.We had to melt snow for water,that was one time i was thankful for a stove.In 05 for example it took 12 hours to get all the way to rohn,a defined trail,it was a breeze.You never can tell.Its definately in my opinion one of the most exciting and beautiful parts of the entire iditarod trail.Rohn is a challange for the volunteers.Its tented accom and food and water are available as long as the stove and all is working.its also the second place for your drops.expect your drop pack to be frozen solid at rohn if you have food stuff that can freeze.The self appointed major of Rohn "jasper" will be at the blm cabin setting up for the iditarod.hes pretty helpful,enjoys bills race but its not his priority.We are not supposed to ask him for anything but hes real helpful if you have a situation.Buffallo camp is my favorite check point.its a tent,its unbelievably hot inside with spruce needles covering the entire floor giving of a really nice scent.The food and hospitality there is second to none,john is a great guy,lots of stories.he has tented accomadation.Nicolai is my least favorite place, its a mission to find the checkpoint in town.By this stage you are usually knackered and needing sleep which doesnt help navigation.The check point is olene and nicks house,food and water available,some candy available,remember to bring some cash in small numeration for such things and tipping people.Mcgrath is also a house,its open 24hours,the kitchen is still somewhat of a mystery to me,everyone spends their entire time eating but the kitchen never runs out of food.Peter has a library of 1980 circular european road videos,comfy couches.Wash a few dishes,leave a tip and when you come back next year Peter will remember your name.

  10. #10
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    Maps

    I find a few GPS waypoints and some cut up maps to be most helpful. Just print out the sections you need on a color printer and then cut them up with a razor blade, then laminate them with some clear packing tape. Since the trail moves from year to year, and to some extent hour to hour. All you really need (in my opinion, getting lost can be very dangerous so do whatever you need to make it work) is some general idea of where you need to be and some general overview of the terrain. In a white out or dark night maps don't matter, but a GPS with a couple of way points can keep you from going in circles.

    I consider a stove, -40 sleeping bag and extra clothes essential gear, others don't. My attitude is that I want to have a lot of fun, and be sort of comfortable, safety is important too. I'm also not up with the front runners so cutting a few pounds of gear really has no effect on my race. It won't really make me any faster and the extra risk isn't worth it. This is the sort of thing you need to figure out for yourself, in terms of your goals, speed etc. Up to Puntilla there is water food and sleeping available at the checkpoints. I've only done the race twice, but each time it was pretty easy to go non-stop from checkpoint to checkpoint. Big meals were eaten at the checkpoints and gear was dried etc. Anything can happen so you need to be self sufficient everywhere, but after Puntilla it is likely that you will need to rely on that "extra gear". Expect to bivy somewhere along the race, even if you plan to hit checkpoints. Also a stove is nice because sometimes as you are going along and it helps to stop and make a hot drink.

    Adam
    I wanna say I'm sorry for stuff I haven't done yet, things will shortly get completely out of hand --T.M.G.

  11. #11
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    Safety in a Stove...?

    The BushBuddy warrants a real close look... racers or kruzers...the stove works v.well. Weighs less than 11 oz. (you don't have to carry gas/fuel - be sure to bring some sort of fire-starter concentrate and a couple lighters though).

    007s

    You don't have to 'go primative' or 'do without' at the expense of being safe AND comfortable...but as noted above...it takes some time and effort to figure-out your minimalist system...more often than not, light and simple = more expense...if you have the time you can always 'make-your-own' like most of us Alaskans have done for years...again, time = $ too!

    I started posting some camping nuggets at the FatBike Alaska blog too. Some of my personal preferences...to each their own though.

    Link to camping nuggets.

    Comments welcome.

    Good luck to all.

    ML
    Last edited by qayaq_alaska; 12-09-2006 at 02:02 AM.
    Martin
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    http://fatbikealaska.blogspot.com/

  12. #12
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    I respect everybodys input and suggestions. Thank you.

    Just got back from W.Yellowstone track skiing, night and day ridding. Checking things out and putting together some over nighter routes. There are soo many trails and tracks, I have no excuse to not test my system here. Should be heading out in the next week to loop Yellowstone before they let those snow machines in.

    Jay

  13. #13
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    Burning Questions...

    for the experienced racers on this forum. Really interested to hear from the long distance winter racers who are out on the trail for extended periods.

    So here goes:

    1 Why do some of you stack all your gear high on your bike...most of what I've seen is folks lashing their gear to bars or stacked on their racks...WHY?

    2 What combinations are most folks using on their feet? Boots, VBLs, overboots?

    2b What style pedals have folks found most effective? Clipless, powergrips, etc?

    3 What provisions do you make for getting through overflow?

    4 What lighting systems are folks using? What batteries? What mount?

    5 Has anyone used suspension seatposts...how does the canecreek elastomer work in the cold?

    6 Is anyone singlespeeding this year? Fixed? What's your gearing?

    7 What provisions do you make for carrying your bike? Any?

    8 Is anyone using grease-guard type parts...What provisions do you make for regreasing?

    Nice to learn here from the experts ...I'm not a racer and you will probably never see me on the race-trail...nevertheless, would still like to gather some wisdom.

    Quyana in advance,



    Martin
    Last edited by qayaq_alaska; 12-11-2006 at 11:52 PM.
    Martin
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  14. #14
    KuskoRiverCruiser
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    New question here. Hah...no words of wisdom??

    No responses to my query...is it getting too close to race time...still looking for some ideas...thanx in advance.

    Martin

    quyana for the PM dude!
    Martin
    [SIZE=1]"The pursuit of truth and adventure is far more noble a task than looking for work", [/SIZE]
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  15. #15
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    1 Its easier to push up hills, racks & panniers add weight.
    2 Anything warm
    2b platforms
    3 neos
    4 ask mike c and Carl
    5 Headlamps, Petzl Myo's are nice
    6 ?, I ran a 30-23 on my monkey in '05, it was reahuly fast.
    7 None, too much work to carry loaded bikes
    8 ?


    -the armchair sarcastic ex-racer
    Last edited by Bearbait; 12-14-2006 at 05:52 PM.

  16. #16
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    I'm no expert, but I'll take a crack at the answers. I've raced 7 of the last ten years, and done AK winter trail rides on 2 of the other 3. The last one? I rested.

    Keep in mind--just my $.03.

    1 Why do some of you stack all your gear high on your bike...most of what I've seen is folks lashing their gear to bars or stacked on their racks...WHY?

    Racks and panniers add weight and bulk. Most racers get infected with the weight weenie bug (a lighter bike floats better on top of loose trails) and will do anything to shave a few pounds. Also, some (few) snowmachine trails are so rutted that the panniers will drag on the sides of the trail.


    2 What combinations are most folks using on their feet? Boots, VBLs, overboots?

    Wool sock, VBL, felt liner, boot.


    2b What style pedals have folks found most effective? Clipless, powergrips, etc?

    I swear by clipless. Others here swear at them.


    3 What provisions do you make for getting through overflow?

    My boot setup is 99.7% waterproof to knee high, and slushproof to waist high.


    4 What lighting systems are folks using? What batteries? What mount?

    Basic LED's with lithium batts. Primary riding light on bars, secondary/camp light on head.


    5 Has anyone used suspension seatposts...how does the canecreek elastomer work in the cold?

    Haven't used the CC. Used a Moxey for two years (Bill and Kathi M have 'em now) and they worked well 'til about ~20 below, then the elastomer froze and the pivots shrunk, so I had plenty of side-to-side slop. Also used a Control Tech and Rock Shox, both of which broke (top spun independently of the bottom) on the trail.


    6 Is anyone singlespeeding this year? Fixed? What's your gearing?

    I'm running 2 x 8, with a spare single cog on my front wheel.


    7 What provisions do you make for carrying your bike? Any?

    None. Keep in mind that we're cyclists, with pathetically puny upper bodies. I'd be hard pressed to carry my unloaded bike for more than a 1/4 mile.


    8 Is anyone using grease-guard type parts...What provisions do you make for regreasing?

    Haven't found it to be an issue, provided everything is freshly/properly prepped just before the race.


    Nice to learn here from the experts ...I'm not a racer and you will probably never see me on the race-trail...nevertheless, would still like to gather some wisdom.

    Pat Irwin and I learned more about strong cold (and it's effect on us and our bikes) than we'd hoped to on a trip a few years ago. Read about it here.


    Would like to ask you a few questions about your web page. Would you send me an email (mike.curiak at gmail.com) so that I can respond off-list?

    Thanks,

    MC

  17. #17
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    1 Why do some of you stack all your gear high on your bike...most of what I've seen is folks lashing their gear to bars or stacked on their racks...WHY?

    By defult really I have no good reason for doing this. But in my case the stuff high on the bike is bulky rather than heavy. The heavy stuff goes in the frame bag.


    2 What combinations are most folks using on their feet? Boots, VBLs, overboots?

    Medium weight winter hiking/runing boots. Vapor Barrier socks, and Neos if needed.

    2b What style pedals have folks found most effective? Clipless, powergrips, etc?

    I've used clipless, powergrips and flat pedals. I'm settled on flat pedals, becasue I like 'em. But two years ago I loved my clipless. I never really liked power grips becasue I couldn't get out of them with my winter shoes.


    3 What provisions do you make for getting through overflow?

    Mainly luck and hope, but also a set of neos.


    4 What lighting systems are folks using? What batteries? What mount?

    Cateye Opticube and a LED headlamp. Lithium batteries for the race NiMi rechargables for training.


    5 Has anyone used suspension seatposts...how does the canecreek elastomer work in the cold?

    Never tried 'em but I have seen 'em out there.


    6 Is anyone singlespeeding this year? Fixed? What's your gearing?

    Gears gears and more gears, especially after the 3rd day. Last year I rode almost the whole way in my little ring.

    7 What provisions do you make for carrying your bike? Any?

    None its way too heavy for that.

    8 Is anyone using grease-guard type parts...What provisions do you make for regreasing?

    None I don't repack my hubs or do anything special to them, I just ride them the way they come from the store and it has not been a problem. From some of the concern and postings I've seen on this forum I may just be lucky on this issue. I use shimano XT hubs, or maybe deore, whatever they are the cheap but solid shimano hubs.


    Hope this helps, I'm in no way an expert (on anything), I've done the race twice and aspire to enjoying this years race from my couch.

    Adam
    I wanna say I'm sorry for stuff I haven't done yet, things will shortly get completely out of hand --T.M.G.

  18. #18
    Bill M
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    I'm not racing this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay P
    I respect everybodys input and suggestions. Thank you.

    Just got back from W.Yellowstone track skiing, night and day ridding. Checking things out and putting together some over nighter routes. There are soo many trails and tracks, I have no excuse to not test my system here. Should be heading out in the next week to loop Yellowstone before they let those snow machines in.

    Jay
    Hey Jay PM me and since I am not racing this year I might be willing to share a few "insider" tips about the trail. Didn't mean to be vague when I answered you e-mail but I wouldn't want any rookies missing out on the anxiety that kept me from sleeping for weeks before my first race in "98".
    Bill M

  19. #19
    KuskoRiverCruiser
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    Quyana for the info...

    gotta say I was just fishin and didn't expect much...being close to race season and all...some good information though...very helpful.

    Will let you know how my kit progresses for this season...thanx



    ML
    Martin
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  20. #20
    life is a barrel o'fun
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    Best of luck to you guys! I often think of this race whenever I'm frustrated with the cold, dark winters here in NY. Reminds me that it could be worse!
    "We sat outside the dentist, tooting a horn on the guy's bike."-overheard in the Underground

  21. #21
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    THINKERING????

    Ha, I like that. Thinkering. And excellent advice overall regarding the trial runs. That MikeSee knows some stuff.

    Ken
    No matter where you go, there you are.

  22. #22
    KuskoRiverCruiser
    Reputation: qayaq_alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    237

    Overboots...?

    Time to retire the ancient overboots...although all my hand stitching is still intact ...the fabric has seen its day.

    What Neos model are folks using...?

    ?for the Fairbanks folks...is Apocalypse making anything bike specific these days?

    ty in advance.
    Martin
    [SIZE=1]"The pursuit of truth and adventure is far more noble a task than looking for work", [/SIZE]
    http://fatbikealaska.blogspot.com/

  23. #23
    FatBike Fiend
    Reputation: Wildfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    877

    Neos

    I'm partial to the Navigator 5 because it has a sole that is soft enough to adhere to most ice and hard enough not to get chewed up by pedals. Plus the insulation and roll-up gator are nice touches. It's a bit heavier then some of the other models though. I think Epoxylips is still making pogies but not sure what other bike goodies they have up their sleeves.
    Quote Originally Posted by qayaq_alaska
    Time to retire the ancient overboots...although all my hand stitching is still intact ...the fabric has seen its day.

    What Neos model are folks using...?

    ?for the Fairbanks folks...is Apocalypse making anything bike specific these days?

    ty in advance.
    Owner, Trailwerx Trails Contracting
    Palmer, Alaska
    www.trailwerx.com

  24. #24
    Caveman
    Reputation: Bearbait's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    987
    Wildfire, the only problem I had with the Nav 5's is that the insulation is open cell foam. The pair I had leaked and it took literally days for them to dry out. I quickly went an alternative route. So don't get water in them!

  25. #25
    Bill M
    Guest

    Navigators

    Like Wildfire Kathi M and I have used Navigators for three years waded lots of overflow and even though mine are showing serious wear they have yet to leak. I like the vibram soles even though they are a bit heavier than the Explorer model because of the extra traction on ice and pushing uphill. What did you do Bearbait punch vent holes in yours?
    Bill M

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