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  1. #1
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    Question on Black Flag Pro hub

    Thought maybe Jeremy was on line and could shed some light. i did get it sorted out but wondering if i did anything wrong.

    Yesterday after a ride I decided to take down the Goblin XO and clean it up a bit.

    On my other bike with Syncros hub simple to take off rear cassette (gear cluster). Just use the Park tool and chain whip.

    On the Black Flag a bit different. i took off the locknut but cassette would not budge.

    So i use an Allen to remove inner locknut. Cluster comes off. I clean it up but cannot get it back on. There are 3 spring loaded pawls and you must depress all 3 simultaneously to seat the cluster back on the axle. Really a baffling situation.

    Finally I used a piece of fishing line as a noose to depress pawls and get back together.

    Pictures posted below. As you can see the gear cluster appears to be riveted to the hub assembly. Note the rivets on the five black arms. So it seems one must take off the piece with the pawls to get the cluster off. After using the fishing line the assembly slid back on the axle and I was able to cut away the line.

    Hope the pictures do this explanation justice.

    This morning went to LBS to describe my situation. Asked if there was a special tool. The mechanic just looked at me. "I have no idea what you mean."

    So all is well just was a bit perplexed by this.

    Any thoughts?

    I posted in drivetrain and Wheel sub forum. Got tons of reads and one reply "use a piece of string."

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  2. #2
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    To get the gears off, start by putting it all back together.

    Rather than the fishing line noose, you can usually slide the body over the axle and rotate in the direction of the freewheel (so it spins). This way the pawls naturally collapse when they hit the teeth and it slides in.

    Once its all back together, then its probably just the usual chain whip and cassette removal tool. Read this for more info on the cassette removal. Shimano Cassettes & Freehubs
    Good luck!!

  3. #3
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    There's lots in that link (lots of old stuff too). You likely have the shimano freehub (know I said freewheel in my description.

    Here's a video also Shimano Cassette Lockring Removal - YouTube

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dansMTB View Post
    There's lots in that link (lots of old stuff too). You likely have the shimano freehub (know I said freewheel in my description.

    Here's a video also Shimano Cassette Lockring Removal - YouTube
    It is a Sram PG 1050 cassette which is riveted to the piece with the spring loaded pawls. Look at the pic.

    I did try to simply rotate but pawls did NOT detent hence the string trick.

    As mentioned no problem removing cassette on Syncros hub. Seems like the Sun Ringle is a whole different animal !!!

  5. #5
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    This is what I get searching for the cassette you mentioned. I think you'll find the cassette is not riveted like you are suspecting. The rings are riveted to the aluminium carrier of the cassette body, but that's separate from the freehub body with the pawls.

    Again, good luck!! Hope you get it figured out (being able to service your own bike is a great skill to have)

  6. #6
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    I don't know if its a different hub but I have 2 sets of Charger Pro's and you just remove the lock ring and the cassette slides off. Maybe a cog on the cassette rotated and cut into the freehub body, essentially locking it on to it? I don't think there was any need to remove the freehub.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dansMTB View Post
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    This is what I get searching for the cassette you mentioned. I think you'll find the cassette is not riveted like you are suspecting. The rings are riveted to the aluminium carrier of the cassette body, but that's separate from the freehub body with the pawls.

    Again, good luck!! Hope you get it figured out (being able to service your own bike is a great skill to have)
    I'm not sure. I tried to remove by pulling on the largest cog. Maybe I could have simply slipped off the cogs one by one. Anyway, its back together and i have no plans of trying again till need arises.

    But yup I bet i could have removed from smallest to largest in order. Good thought . Thanks for your insight.

    I just never thought of removing each individually.

  8. #8
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    Question on Black Flag Pro hub

    Cassette should slide right off. When I upgraded to Black Flag Pro wheels from stock wheels I just used the chain whip and locking nut socket. Slid the cassette off and back on. Maybe your cassette dug into the hub making it more difficult to remove.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyKreitzer View Post
    Cassette should slide right off. When I upgraded to Black Flag Pro wheels from stock wheels I just used the chain whip and locking nut socket. Slid the cassette off and back on. Maybe your cassette dug into the hub making it more difficult to remove.
    Thanks, Krazy. I did pull on it but would not budge. I was concerned that pulling too hard would bend a tooth or something.

    Looks like I just gave up too soon.

    Next time Ill try rocking it back and forth a bit to free up.

    Thanks again.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyKreitzer View Post
    Cassette should slide right off. When I upgraded to Black Flag Pro wheels from stock wheels I just used the chain whip and locking nut socket. Slid the cassette off and back on. Maybe your cassette dug into the hub making it more difficult to remove.
    This.

    You definitely took that baby way apart!

    Next time you go to do this, and the casset won't budge from the freehub body, take a flat-blade screwdriver and gently pry the individual outer (smaller) cogs off one at a time. Once you get to the larger cluster on the alu spider (the black piece) that should slide right off. When you put everything back on after cleaning, use a little Park or Phils grease on the grooves on the freehub body that the cassette pieces slide back onto. This will help with removal in the future. Hope that makes sense!

    Jeremy
    Airborne Dude.

  11. #11
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    OMG, OP thanks for the morning laugh The cassette IS NOT pinned to the freehub, it is pinned to an alu spider to help distribute the load over a greater area of the freehub, unfortunately that's not a top of the line cassette (definitely not XO spec, that would be the PG1080) and only the first 3 cogs look to be pinned to the alu carrier, the rest are just free and have most likely cut into the soft alu freehub body - won't use any cassette with less than 5 cogs pinned to a single alu carrier or the higher end ones that pin 2 or 3 of the first 6 cogs to 2 or 3 spiders, think XTR.

    Don't be scared about going at it again, it's very simple, honest, all you need to do is remove the lockring and then get a block of wood or something else "soft" and then knock the cassette counter clockwise to unseat the teeth from the freehub body. I'd suggest that you do remove the cassette properly and inspect the freehub body and determine just how badly gouged it is. You can use a file to smooth back down the edges of the gouges so the cassette can fit back on easily, however if you value the freehub I'd consider a better cassette like the 1090 or see if Sun makes a steel freehub body to replace the current alu one with.

    DansMTB was right, if you happen to remove the entire freehub again no need for fishing line, just install and rotate counter clockwise and the pawls will naturally compress and fall into the hub
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    OMG, OP thanks for the morning laugh The cassette IS NOT pinned to the freehub, it is pinned to an alu spider to help distribute the load over a greater area of the freehub, unfortunately that's not a top of the line cassette (definitely not XO spec, that would be the PG1080) and only the first 3 cogs look to be pinned to the alu carrier, the rest are just free and have most likely cut into the soft alu freehub body - won't use any cassette with less than 5 cogs pinned to a single alu carrier or the higher end ones that pin 2 or 3 of the first 6 cogs to 2 or 3 spiders, think XTR.

    Don't be scared about going at it again, it's very simple, honest, all you need to do is remove the lockring and then get a block of wood or something else "soft" and then knock the cassette counter clockwise to unseat the teeth from the freehub body. I'd suggest that you do remove the cassette properly and inspect the freehub body and determine just how badly gouged it is. You can use a file to smooth back down the edges of the gouges so the cassette can fit back on easily, however if you value the freehub I'd consider a better cassette like the 1090 or see if Sun makes a steel freehub body to replace the current alu one with.

    DansMTB was right, if you happen to remove the entire freehub again no need for fishing line, just install and rotate counter clockwise and the pawls will naturally compress and fall into the hub
    Are you suggesting the hub is or will be trashed by the cassette? Concerned about the possibility of the cassette "cutting into" the hub. Hub is of high quality, no?

    Need I be concerned?

    Again the pawls did not retract with rotation hence the fishing line.

    BDF: your thoughts on cassette cutting into hub?

    I do not wish to get a new hub and all seems well.

    JK

  13. #13
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    Please read carefully FREEHUB, not hub as in hub shell. Freehubs are wear/use parts, more so on some brands than others, replacing one is not a big deal, but not cheap either on more expensive hubs. YES if you continue to use the current cassette it may destroy the FREEHUB by eating into it so much that you cannot remove the cassette without doing damage. Sadly MANY brands cut costs and save money on cassettes like this, but then provide a decent set of wheels with alu freehubs which is a NO-NO. If you don't want to trash your freehub, then order yourself a new cassette that has a carrier with 5 or more cogs pinned to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by drjay9051 View Post
    Are you suggesting the hub is or will be trashed by the cassette? Concerned about the possibility of the cassette "cutting into" the hub. Hub is of high quality, no?

    Need I be concerned?

    Again the pawls did not retract with rotation hence the fishing line.

    BDF: your thoughts on cassette cutting into hub?

    I do not wish to get a new hub and all seems well.

    JK
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
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  14. #14
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    LyNx:

    After some research i see the XG 1080 is the XO spec cassette whereas the 1050 is X7 spec. So you are suggesting what regarding Airborne?

    Is your point that for $200 more I would not need worry about the cassette cutting into the hub?

    Do you really think i'll have a problem down the line?

    So Airborne spec'd the bike with a high quality SunRingle wheelset but skimped on the cassette?

    I don't know. They seem pretty knowledgable and I'd think that if the price of the bike was a bit higher to account for the cost of a 1080 cassette they would have gone that route.

    Just cannot see a smaller and growing operation risking the ire of customers with trashed hubs due to poor componentry.

    But hey I'm new to all this so i'll let others chime in on this one.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjay9051 View Post
    LyNx:

    After some research i see the XG 1080 is the XO spec cassette whereas the 1050 is X7 spec. So you are suggesting what regarding Airborne?

    Is your point that for $200 more I would not need worry about the cassette cutting into the hub?

    Do you really think i'll have a problem down the line?

    So Airborne spec'd the bike with a high quality SunRingle wheelset but skimped on the cassette?

    I don't know. They seem pretty knowledgable and I'd think that if the price of the bike was a bit higher to account for the cost of a 1080 cassette they would have gone that route.

    Just cannot see a smaller and growing operation risking the ire of customers with trashed hubs due to poor componentry.

    But hey I'm new to all this so i'll let others chime in on this one.
    aluminum freehubs will have some issues with biting with almost any cassette. to get away from that some hub manufacturers use ti freehubs (hadley) or an option for stainless steel (king). a better quality cassette will have more cogs attached to the carrier. is it worth $200 to buy a new cassette in the xo range? i don't think so. the black flag hub is still only a 3 pawl 24 poe hub which isn't up there in terms of quality. even between aluminum on the freehub there can be a big difference in quality of materials. just clean it up and keep an eye it when you service the bike. lots of bikes out there with aluminum freehubs and x7 spec cassettes

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    aluminum freehubs will have some issues with biting with almost any cassette. to get away from that some hub manufacturers use ti freehubs (hadley) or an option for stainless steel (king). a better quality cassette will have more cogs attached to the carrier. is it worth $200 to buy a new cassette in the xo range? i don't think so. the black flag hub is still only a 3 pawl 24 poe hub which isn't up there in terms of quality. even between aluminum on the freehub there can be a big difference in quality of materials. just clean it up and keep an eye it when you service the bike. lots of bikes out there with aluminum freehubs and x7 spec cassettes
    Thanks for your input.

    I will do some reading on hubs. Also need to learn about different BB types.

    I have heard of Chris King hubs but $400 seems like a bit much.

    So "better" cassette means more gears attached to the spider and hence less "torque" or stress on the hub body? In other words less bite into soft metal? I guess when time comes its either "better" cassette or harder material hub be that stainless or Ti.

    Interesting comparo :
    Hub Showdown - Chris King, Hadley, Industry Nine, DT, Stealth, and Hope | RIDING FEELS GOOD

    So looks like new hub means rebuilding wheel? Getting a bit pricey.

    I'm thinking better cassette if need be.

    Lots to learn. Again thanks for the help.

  17. #17
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    tsk tsk....Sometimes it's probably best to stop and think 'Hm will my post CONTRIBUTE to the facts being discussed, or do I just have a lot of time on my hands?'.
    Warning sent

  18. #18
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    drjay, your current cassette and the alu freehub are probably fine. I have had a few where the cogs not on the alu spider of the cassette have dug into the freehub. The best way to prevent this (while keeping the same cassette and freehub) are to be sure the cassette lock ring is tight. If you do need to remove and put anther cassette on, as another poster mentioned, just file the rough edges down a bit when you remove/reapply the cassette.

    Unless your changing wheels often (and if so maybe have one cassette for each wheelset), the cassette should be more a set and forget item. Install it and leave be until time to be replaced.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony View Post
    tsk tsk....Sometimes it's probably best to stop and think 'Hm will my post CONTRIBUTE to the facts being discussed, or do I just have a lot of time on my hands?'.
    Warning sent
    Is your comment aimed at me/ If so, why??

    I suppose I broke rule #6 as I posted on 3 boards in an effort to get more feedback to aid in my knowledge base. My bad.

    I am new to this . My post related with a problem i had. I received some follow up posts some of which were helpful. Some of which were confusing.

    My last post dealt with knowledge regarding hubs/cassettes.


    So what is the problem/

    If not aimed in my direction we have no problem.

  20. #20
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    Not suggesting anything directly towards Airborne, but in general to ALL the manufacturers. When you've been at this long enough to know the componentry you'll realise this and it may or may not aggravate you (it aggravates me no end) where these companies will skimp to save some $$ and the weight and crap like this it adds to the equation - why spec as you say such a good spec and then this low end cassette, makes no sense, but they do it ALL THE TIME. Sometimes I have to wonder if SRAM throws in the cassettes FOC when maufacturers buy build kits or what, just doesn't make sense to me and yes, if Airborne had specd a higher end cassette cost would have gone up a bit.

    As to the freehub and it "really" giving trouble - in my experience I've got a hub or two with alu freehubs and not all my casssettes have the big alu spider and they've dug into the freehub a bit and as I said I've filed the edges down and they're still working. HOWEVER, I clean and inspect my equipment on a regular basis ans change things around etc, so no problems, but if you were to leave this cassette on there as is and then when it's life is up go to change it without ever having removed it, then it may not be able to be removed or you may damage something trying to remove it and have to replace the cassette and freehub. Those wheels are quite decent wheels, no need to go look for something new or "better", just get that cassette off, see how much damage it's done, file the groves down, install with grease and regularly check it so it doesn't get "stuck on", or spend $$80 on an XT cassette which has the big alu carrier and not have to worry about it - not sure on the SRAM pricing, but you don't need to spend $200 to get a good casette ;-)

    Hope that helps and no, Cdale Tony wasn't referencing you or any of your posts.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by drjay9051 View Post
    LyNx:

    After some research i see the XG 1080 is the XO spec cassette whereas the 1050 is X7 spec. So you are suggesting what regarding Airborne?
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Not suggesting anything directly towards Airborne, but in general to ALL the manufacturers. When you've been at this long enough to know the componentry you'll realise this and it may or may not aggravate you (it aggravates me no end) where these companies will skimp to save some $$ and the weight and crap like this it adds to the equation - why spec as you say such a good spec and then this low end cassette, makes no sense, but they do it ALL THE TIME. Sometimes I have to wonder if SRAM throws in the cassettes FOC when maufacturers buy build kits or what, just doesn't make sense to me and yes, if Airborne had specd a higher end cassette cost would have gone up a bit.

    As to the freehub and it "really" giving trouble - in my experience I've got a hub or two with alu freehubs and not all my casssettes have the big alu spider and they've dug into the freehub a bit and as I said I've filed the edges down and they're still working. HOWEVER, I clean and inspect my equipment on a regular basis ans change things around etc, so no problems, but if you were to leave this cassette on there as is and then when it's life is up go to change it without ever having removed it, then it may not be able to be removed or you may damage something trying to remove it and have to replace the cassette and freehub. Those wheels are quite decent wheels, no need to go look for something new or "better", just get that cassette off, see how much damage it's done, file the groves down, install with grease and regularly check it so it doesn't get "stuck on", or spend $$80 on an XT cassette which has the big alu carrier and not have to worry about it - not sure on the SRAM pricing, but you don't need to spend $200 to get a good casette ;-)

    Hope that helps and no, Cdale Tony wasn't referencing you or any of your posts.

    .
    Thanks, LyNx.

    So I'm not sure who the mod was directing his comments toward.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjay9051 View Post
    Thanks, LyNx.

    So I'm not sure who the mod was directing his comments toward.
    He was directing it towards the violation of this rule:

    constant and continuous badgering and flaming of others will not be tolerated, and will be dealt with at the management's discretion. Users are free to share experiences, whether good or bad, positive or negative. You have your chance to speak your peace. However, do not attempt to abuse our site by making this a place for your own personal campaign against other forum members, manufacturers, or retailers nor as your own personal soapbox.
    Thanks for your help Tony.

    Dr Jay, as we discussed on the phone yesterday you will be fine with that cassette. Eventually when it wears out, you can think about upgrading it but it will be fine for now. I am running the same cassette on my personal BFP's and Chargers with no issues at all. Feel free to call me again if you have any questions or need anything, thanks!

    Jeremy
    Airborne Dude.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyFlyer View Post
    He was directing it towards the violation of this rule:



    Thanks for your help Tony.

    Dr Jay, as we discussed on the phone yesterday you will be fine with that cassette. Eventually when it wears out, you can think about upgrading it but it will be fine for now. I am running the same cassette on my personal BFP's and Chargers with no issues at all. Feel free to call me again if you have any questions or need anything, thanks!

    Jeremy
    Thanks, BDF. I'm good to go. Will just keep an eye on the "free hub"

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